APEC one result was a possible new trading block.
One the President of the USA said his country needs.
To drive Growth,and put Americans back to work.
Grow the economy,grow the population,[business says we must have more workers.
Why.
Wealth creation, just as growth is worshiped we are told wealth creation too,is a wanted out come.
Europe,perhaps soon the worlds financial crisis started it seems by too much growth to fast.
It over took ability to pay.
It almost seems we are building crisis, financial stalling,in to our system.
To refresh? growth.
Can we forever trust in growth .
And what of those being left even further behind while those growing race away.
I do not target Capitalism.
But question can it forever drive us to consume more.

Can we sustain constant growth.It calls for growth in consumers too.
Growth in work force,population.
Services.
Is there another way.
Even a depression would not stop growth.
After it was over we would see growth return, until the next crash?

Belly, you know the one about the girl from Riga, who went for a ride on a tiger. Well mate I think were on the back of another tiger, & running like crazy to make sure that we don't come back inside that tiger.

Your mates want/need more money. The easiest, & often the only way for most business to pay more is to turnover more. It's either that, or charge more. With ever hungry government always finding ways to extract more, increased turnover is often the only way to stand still.

Some countries have done it, stopped population growth, & I would like to see us do it, but I doubt we can stop price growth, while we remain part of the trading scene.

Actually I think the question is a bit too tough for me.

Dear Belly,

Looking at this logically the world population is
growing which includes Australia. As a result
we need to produce more food, services, employment,
housing, transport,advanced technology, education,
health care, and so on, which
generates by its very nature - growth. Now if we add to
that the current corporate greed, growth is at an ever
increasing capacity.

No matter what outcomes on this planet - disasters, wars,
famines, growth will still continue unless there is a
decline in population then naturally there will be less
demand on growth.

I've recently seen a program on SBS analysizing world
population growth. And unless there are drastic measures
taken such as mass sterilisation, or uncontrollable spread
of disease throughout the world, the global population will
continue to grow. So to the pressure on the world economy.
It appears that there is no easy solution.

We can of course escape to our own little paradise in the sun
isolated from all civilisation and live in our own little dream
world but of course we'd have to be self sufficient

Dear Belly,

I probably didn't put it very well in my previous post
so I'll try to do better in this one.

What I'm trying to say is that with an expected world
population growth of over nine billion we will overshoot -
undoubtedly very seriously the world's carrying capacity
for which we will suffer probably for ages, as will our
natural world, until we can reduce the human population
and return our ecosystems to sustainable health.

What we need to recognise is that our overshoot will be
as a result of human population growth and the natural
desire of all humans for a middle-class lifestyle. It
all probability things will get worse before they get better.
We need sensible birth control - we need to reduce the total
numbers (probably to at least half the nine billion), the less
environmental damage we will need to repair - if that is done.

A better world is possible, it will take time, it will be
difficult, but it will be worth it. However it's time we realised
that - we don't become happier if life is led in search of the
next material object, in conspicuous consumption. That a few
have overcome scarcity means little if the majority live in
poverty. We need to address human population growth and conventional
economic growth.

It's the growth of stupidity that worries me most.

Lexi, if we all lived in one of those little paradise in the sun, it might cure the population problem, they are not healthy places to live, & many are getting worse. There are very few second heart attacks in these places, victims do not survive the first.

I recently took a Google earth trip around some of my old stamping grounds, & what I saw was not good for those living there. It was pleasing to see most of the jetties I built still looked OK, but one was about 30 meters off shore, the island had moved as atolls do, & one was a similar distance in land.

The worrying things were at least a dozen airstrips had simply disappeared, & many coconut plantations were returning to scrub.

This means the European that ran the plantation is gone, the air strip is not maintained so no emergency service or evacuation. The power house is probably out if the airstrip has gone. No power means no refrigeration, so many medicines, especially antibiotics are gone too.

With diminishing copra output, the little cargo ships will come only once or twice a year, not monthly to pick up copra, & with supplies ordered by radio, as before. There is probably no longer radio contact, so no supplies ordered. Maintaining radios was one of my regular tasks up there.

It really made me sad to see how the kids of people, who were friends of mine, are now living in reduced circumstances.

They were not quite ready for independence. Another generation was all they needed, but they did not get it.

It was only in the palm oil growing areas that conditions looked improved. Road networks had grown, where none existed before, villages were larger, & townships had appeared. This all means better communications & services for locals, as well as schools & income opportunities.

So no Lexi, in general it's better stay in civilisation, it's not only more comfortable, it is also healthier.

Nature and war will take its course sooner than you think. Then all the useless ones can begin again screaming for more people to do all the work.

Every post was both of interest and had points I agree with except individual, and in truth he has no point.
Hasbeen! come on bloke are you pulling my leg?
Do you think workers can control economy's?
And Unions are not evil!
If they are so too are every bosses union, every chamber of commerce every group that is involved in the welfare of its members.
Lexi good to see you again.
I share those dreams,but they are dreams.
Truth is there is more satisfaction in giving than taking.
In helping rather than hurting.
But some hurt for fun.
Some take and never give.
Real control is not about us, middle income workers voters.
Growth in what?
If it is GDP then it is also workers/ population, do not overlook the double roll they have , production, and consumers.
Wages, increasingly, are not growing above inflation rates.
And without consumers less growth.
Complex Hasbeen I am unlikely as you say you are to find answers.
But love to look.
Shame,yes it is, other ways have failed, Capitalism, in my view is the only path but again in my view can and Will be modified.

OK thread got a flat tyer.
You can tell by this time if its a flyer or not.
Still think the subject has merit, still question endless growth.
And I still think all growth is linked.
Employment Productivity Economy Population.
A balloon can only take in as certain amount before exploding.
Are we to think if world population stopped growing the economy would in time too.
After a time it would.
Wait for the explosion, or is change an option.

Lexi,
Good to see that we do not disagree on everything. What you have said here, on population growth, makes complete sense to me and I suspect, to our old friend Ludwig, whom I have not heard of for a while.

I sometimes get concerned for our future generations because I know that practical carrying capacity is limited. All farmers know that and some gamble on continueing good seasons and find themselves in trouble when Mother nature changes course a bit.

We are gambling now with world population and there does not seem to be a concern to world leaders. The great famine in China killed 40-50 million and I suspect that will be minor in some future famine.

I keep mentioning Iran and how they reduced their birthrate by education and provision of the means (just google Iran birthrate) with the hope that others will take note and some action will begin. However I suspect that will not happen.

Probably better to talk about other things.

Banjo and Lexi have just about got it right.
But my concerns are honest ones.
Right now the western world begs for growth.
To get out of debt and put people back to work.
We have growth, but also shrinking manufacturing and spending.
I too fear the answer may be war, or starvation, even a depression.
So growth can be free after, in a brand new paddock to start the cycle over again.
And my increasing concern that a world in so much trouble, may bring a form of one government.

World energy production has reached a bumpy plateau.
That means growth has reached a bumpy base line just above zero.
From here on it is a zero sum line.
There is just a small amount of growth available to the world and most
of it has been cornered by China and India.
However China is currently now finding the limit to growth which is why
their economy is winding back a little.

From now on we have to learn how to run our economies on zero growth or
we will find ourselves in a contracting economy.
Unfortunately only a few economists have realised the relationship
between growth and energy and those that do have been campaigning to
wake them all up. Most economists think it is all about money.

I had the opertunity to speak to our local polly at one of those meet
the voters nights. He just did not have a clue and had never heard the
suggestion previously.
However he does seem to be interested to find out as I got an email
a day or so later asking for source information.

Bazz I am unsure Capitalism can run on zero growth.
China and India grow from a very low start, other country's given the chance can to.
The African Continent for a start.
Brazil is taking giant steps.
South America, if it can get diseases free,has Cattle enought to swamp markets, at least take a major share.
Zero growth is stalling,stalling leads to going back wards.
I do not share your view on energy, right now oil price is stable.
Stayed that way while Lybia fought for its freedom.
Iraq saw it sky rocket.
Been reading,about very real great new inventions and I have no doubt if needed we will find energy in months.
Nuclear power will if needed power the whole world, growth and all, for ten century's if we need it to.
As each country, no matter how poor today, starts to want growth it will grow.

A possible solution at last to the financial crisis

It is August. In a small town on the South Coast of France, holiday
season is in full swing, but it is raining so there is not too much
business happening. Everyone is heavily in debt. Luckily, a rich tourist
arrives in the foyer of the small local hotel. He asks for a room and
puts a Euro100 note on the reception counter, takes a key and goes
to inspect the room located up the stairs on the third floor.

The hotel owner takes the banknote in a hurry and rushes to his meat
supplier to whom he owes E100. The butcher takes the money and races to
his supplier to pay his debt. The wholesaler rushes to the farmer to
pay E100 for pigs he purchased some time ago. The farmer triumphantly
gives the E100 note to a local prostitute who gave him her services on
credit. The prostitute goes quickly to the hotel, as she was owing the
hotel for her hourly room use to entertain clients. At that moment, the
rich tourist is coming down to reception and informs the hotel owner
that the proposed room is unsatisfactory and takes his E100 back and
departs. There was no profit or income. But everyone no longer has any
debt and the small townspeople look optimistically towards their
future.

COULD THIS BE THE SOLUTION TO THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL COLLAPSE?

Belly said;
Bazz I am unsure Capitalism can run on zero growth.
China and India grow from a very low start, other country's given the chance can to.

I believe capitalism will be able to continue, but under somewhat
different rules. There will be a lot more local small business.
Banks will still exist I expect, but another form of financing will be
in effect. I expect they will be more like an exchange and a manager
of local currencies.
Merchant banks and their financing as we know it now will not exist.
Certainly global trade will diminish with the credit system.

Belly> I do not share your view on energy, right now oil price is stable.

Not really, the price is rather volatile, WTI went over US$100
yesterday and Brent was $110. Tapis which is the price we use is $120.
These are the levels that generate a
recession. If they stay around these prices for a week watch petrol
prices in about 10 days.
At these high prices people will miss paying their mortgages or
electricity bills.
The problem with alternatives is scale and energy intensity.
A cup of petrol can take a car to the top of the Eiffel Tower.
In order of energy intensity;
1st is nuclear, 2nd oil, 3rd coal, 4th natural gas then a big gap
to wood followed by everything else a long way back.

And that is the problem Belly, petrol being a liquid is very versatile
it is cheap can be put readily through pipes etc and contains a
lot of energy for its volume. There is nothing like it.
That is where the problem lies. Crack that and Bill Gates will come begging.

Belly>Been reading,about very real great new inventions

Haven't we all. Everyone is looking for the magic bullet.

if every nation was as productive as Israel who has basically transformed a desert into food bowl there would be no lack anywhere. Compare that to Africa full of corrupt leaders who are rich in minerals and rich in fertile lands but can't feed themselves. Its not rocket science. The overpopulation mantra is simply that. Its a fallacy.

"""
Been reading,about very real great new inventions and I have no doubt if needed we will find energy in months.
"""

Very interesting, Belly. Care to share your new find?

Hehehe! individual.

Heard that one before, it's a goodie :)

Only problem is you forgot the 3rd party that foils the whole deal. I wounder who that may be?

Runner,
You reckon that overpopulation is a falicy?

Open your eyes. Look at certain countries in Africa and view the starving kids. Their land simply cannot support the population and they have no money to buy the equipment and other necesities to improve production,

I am a farmer, now retired, and let me inform you that human reproduction is similar to other mamuals, in that the more you feed them the more they breed. First ovulation depends on body weight and after a woman gives birth when she next ovulates depends on her food intake. Breast feeding of infants used to be a known method of preventing pregnancy, but in our societies better food intake negated that.

So family planning and birth control is an absolute necessity if we are to be sustainable. Education is the key to this and provission of the means. If Iran can do it anyone can, but religions need to come on board to assist governments to achieve lowering birthrates.

Intense pressure should be put on the Vatican to change their policy on birth control.

Birthrates in developed countrries are low, it is in those countries that are subject to famine where the effort has to be made.

interesting topic mr bell
but growth for growth sake..[welcome to hell]

in time we will learn..that staying where we are..is the bigger challange..[as we watch industry shut down..as the insane capitalists...rush to loot and plunder in the latest growth state]

there is an ever shrinking pool of wealth..ripe for exploitation
even holding onto the wealth..you think you got..will be getting harder

much of your 'wealth'..is in futrure promises
but super has been looted and plunderd..[thats why it was again increased]..your money is digets..in some multinational computa..and we know the banks are bust

the time of easy 'growth'..has picked the low hanging ripe fruit..and next has begun eating itself...all new moneys are used to takeover egsisting stuff..and few new endeavours will succeed without govt gifts grants or licence

we live in the time..where keeping what we so dearly bought
becomes more important..that doing the new thing

capitalists..are declining..the few wealthy
will get more wealthy..till in the end..they get eaten by the poor

and the poor..'you will allways have with you'

population isnt the concern
mankind will not head for the stars
its time you came back to earth..here we made our bed

its here
we get the oppertuinity

to make it better
or worse

If only the people with the biggest mouths (in every sense of the word) could learn from others & past foolishness but, alas.

banjo has an issue with over pop=ulation
but even here his logic is flawed.by fear based blinders

to quote..banjo rote..""more you feed them the more they breed.""

ohh great..so yankies got the highest birthrate
and the STARVING hungery africans cant breed?

but your rote goes on..""First ovulation depends on body weight and after a woman gives birth when she next ovulates depends on her food intake.""

so less food
less fertility

gosh why isnt the third world hungry noticing the birth decline?

mate..its lack of security..thats the big clue
we secure in the west..dont need any young spending our current wealth..IN THE HOPE..they will look after US..when were old

you want to cut pop growth
assure them they will be secure[cared for]..when they grow old alone

then you got twisted cathoholic thinking..""Breast feeding of infants used to be a known method of preventing pregnancy,""

you know men can breast feed?

its not the breast feeding..but the protection of the kid
turning off mum and pop...[stopping them from popping]

but bottle fed bred babies..
""but in our societies
better food intake negated that.""

yet we do it more
but get less out of it

cause we got social security..the pill/condoms
and work to make us too tired to make love

im reminded that making love is a comfort thing
those in poverty and dispare..at least can find a warm place to rest

its cold comfort...
that..most of our fears are based in self deciete

when simplistic bias fails
what next..but to check fact

OUG,
If you took note you would see that in famines the birthrate drops dramatically. The same as i have trouble getting my cows to go into calf during droughts. If a woman is on a poor diet and is breast feeding she most likely is not ovulating, so there is no egg to fertilize.

When good seasons come the people breed more or if we supplement their food intake. So in the longer term we are worsening the problem.
They do not choose to have larger families, the babies are born because they know nothing about contraception and do not have the means available.

Iran reduced their birthrate from 6.5 per woman to less than 2, by education and provission of the means. They got the support of their religious leaders to do this.

Other countries should take note and the vatican needs to wake up to reality.

And yes, without contraception, western countries would breed like rabbits.

banjo i must resist your final solution
to do this i must refute your missconceptions

you talk about your own proofs

""i have trouble getting my cows..to go into calf during droughts.""

first its not you doing it
a cow can fall pregnant...often..but for only a day at a time

if the bull..isnt there..then no calf

so where was the bull?
looking for food?

did you supliment feeding..
[i favour sprouted grain..for its water content]
it really bulks out..and fat cattle breed...[unless you fatten them on gmo..which makes them sterile by 3 rd generation]

in short there are many factors
behind your presumptions


then note your adhomim conditions..""If a woman is on a poor
diet...*and..is breast feeding..she most likely"'

most likely...lol

at least if your going to condone genocide
make the indefinate more definative

""When good seasons come the people breed more
*or if we supplement their food intake.""

see..
are the bulls and the cows at the feed station
or wandering arrounf looking for a cool drink and a feed

""And yes, without contraception,
western countries would breed like rabbits.""

not if we all blog on line
and dont go out

kids dont want sex
they want computers
we will stop the critters from breeding
even if we need to kill 2/3..till we wake from our insanity

i do love you

live and let live?
were all in this to-get-her?

OUG,
You are a fool!

Division in the communities, can east ever live with west, without a war Religion has every thing to answer to. It is going to be a very long time before the east has any sort of liberalism, if ever. So with the shrinking world, and religious constraints being the norm in islamic countries, it is a hard ask to have a peaceful world. Years ago there were division between catholic and prodestant, that has mostly disintegrated now, in AU anyway. I think Iran would be far different if it was not for their president. With him at the helm i think there will be war, and not far away.

I MUST ignore the remark about biggest mouths.
But not before trying to get the message across, those with the smallest brain are a problem.
a question.
If today, every country, world wide, had become as productive as Israel.
Who would need to buy the goods.
Would growth continue.
Bazz you must look in other directions, you march in to a blind alley.
Self interest will never let smaller community's exist in the way you think.
Isolation is an opportunity for bigger country's to eat smaller ones.
You do know oil has been much higher.
Driven by innovation, self interest, the back bone of Capitalism profit, we will never be with out fuel.
RM not worth the effort, any answer will only be sneered at your only response.

Never mind Belly, there are many people like you who have yet to have
realised the implications. In fact a majority have yet to put it all
together to their own satisfaction.
Someone like you who has an enquiring mind will put it together much
quicker than the majority.

I have just watched some videos of the UK Parliamentary Peak Oil Group
and they have devised a system like I suggested on OLO several years
ago to enable fuel rationing by use of an updated Australia card.
The idea being that when you buy petrol the servo swipes the card and
your yearly ration is deducted by the amount you buy.

The Parliamentary system is the same except they have designed to
handle CO2 units and it is tied into their carbon system so that the
user has a carbon ration as well.

They are trying to get the UK government to adopt it.

http://www.teqs.net/

Tradeable Energy Quotas
Especially see the video with Jeremy Leggert.

I started the thread after hearing about an up coming, or has it gone?
ABC TV show the speaker said, well can not quote him, but words to the effect we must soon Begin to understand, constant growth is not possible.
In threads for ever year I have been here we have contributed to the same view, most of us.
Population, Immigration, Food supply, Even fears about financial bust, have been at least in part bought back to some form of this subject.
I long ago, woke to the fact a form of Capitalism is the only system we ever had that works.
Communism, like Nazi, ism, was a way of delivering power to murderers.
Tell me not of the good parts, they existed, but of the horror.
Socialism, a far different thing, but it failed us all.
Right now, the wise of us, will know we have a form of it here in Australia.
Blended with Capitalism we have a balanced construction.
It, in every way, reminds me,a Democratic Socialist once near it for ever, it struggles under the weight of those it helps the most, who fail to help them selves often.
I doubt we are far from a time humanity will be forced to address growth.
And to address what form our future system we live under will be.
Europe warns, in My view a tougher form of help, an insistence some help them selves too, is in our future.

A big stumbling block for system change in some countries is their constitution. Take USA It is going to be very hard to have significant change there, without say civil war, because their constitution allows them to do whatever they like, whenever they like. And the same for free enterprise. I do not think the word socialist would go down to well there. In AU we are much more constrained, saying we have certain laws, much to the better, and much easier to change. A mix of socialist and capitalism agenda is what we have, and is working well. Too far one way or the other is unproductive. If there were any country in the world at the moment to take control as a world govt; it would have to be AU. Every one else is riddled with debt, or has constitutional problems.

Just to show how much that saying;
"The price of freedom is perpetual vigilance".

Observe that the Italian and Greek governments have been removed and
replaced with unelected "technocrats" who would not know which end of
a soldering iron to hold !

They appear to have been taken over by a coalition of German and French
and EU Central banks.
A question I would have is any law they introduce legal ?
I suspect not, so how are they going to enforce them ?
Are we to see the Gestapo back ?
(With a different name of course)

Dear Bazz,

I don't think the "Gestapo" will be back as you infer.

Were the previous governments all that great?
The current ones surely will do better. It's all very well
to get up on our high horses and criticise other governments -
but personally I feel that the days are long gone when we
had the genuine moral authority from which to preach to
others. Let us regain our own ground, take a fearless moral
inventory, do the work on ourselves that we still need to do.

Well Lexi, I was not criticising another government.
I was commenting on a putsch.

Hitler did well when he took over didn't he ?
However even Hitler was elected.
So, how about we pressure the big four banks to appoint people to
replace the PM, the treasurer, the finance minister, and the rest of
the cabinet, after all they could not do worse than Julia and her friends.

I can see that you would have to agree with that or is it only Greeks
and Italians who cannot be trusted to run their own affairs ?

You are something else Bazz. Julia and cabinet could run the world, You are about the only one that says any difference. I recon you need a good dose of sunshine and get over your nightmares.

I have been raving on & on about a flat tax but as yet no-one's actually come back & stated serious positives/negatives about it. I for one can not think of a fairer & more productive way of getting our economy back up & running. By economy I am not talking so much about those who simply want to get richer. I'm talking about pension funds & corner stores & small operators. Backed by the much maligned but saving grace GST we should be able to keep going reasonably well. Foreign land ownership should be knocked on the head unless it's from a country which allows Australians to own property there. Just don't forget, Australia's economic woes are borne of greed not mismanagement by the people. Only Government authorities mismanage, it's their purpose. Ah & yes, get a non-military national Service off the ground asap. We don't need growth, we need to get some of the common sense back outlawed by Labour in the past decades.

A non military national service, we are only .2 off full employment, or are you talking about all youth. Our economic woes are from non confidence in spending money, how are you going to fix that.

Ahhh so 579, you agree that the labour government should be left in
place and not dismissed and replaced by bank appointees.

Well so do I, the European banks seem to be acting as though they were
foreclosing on a company. The receivers are in at Greece Pty Ltd
and Italy Pty Ltd.

Just as well our $230 Billion debt is not up for repayment yet or we
might have the Chinese receivers in tomorrow.

Still to be serious I am surprised that there has not been any serious comment about the administrators being appointed.
I did not think such a thing could happen to sovereign governments

OK I need to expand.
First Bazz, bloke freedom may be at fault, Italy, Greece, Spain, almost every European country has had fractured governments post ww2.
Coalitions put together , some times the strangest bed fellows have formed governments.
True change , financial ones that hurt are almost impossible.
I am aware Germany has prospered, by doing what it always has,producing more for less.
But the nut cases that are telling us they planned this are wrong.
Growth, all its needs wants and symptoms did it.
Germany had goods and services for sale,some bought too much.
IF we agree growth is good, but not endless.
Productivity increase is good, but not at a cost to lifestyle.
We can begin to plan.
Let us put our emotions aside,t for a few posts.
No I am not heartless!
I give more than I can afford.
But have you ever given then found that person conned you?
Had more in his pocket than you?
Just as Capitalism has changed and will continue to, Socialism, our part of it can must too.
Education public transport health a host more,is in America eyes pure Socialism.
I am so very proud we do far better than them.
We must not measure our selves against them.
For such a rich country to have so many truly poor is horrible.
Continued.

The problem Belly is that these appointees were not even members of parliament.
It was just the same as the board of a company being removed by the bank.

I understand, and it hurts, that many will find my suggestions cruel.
I know too, apart from Banjo, and maybe one or two others few have struggled just to eat as my family did.
A list, the why not list, not back dated, no one can send a child back.
No Baby bonuses.
No child money support for the third child and all after, no tax breaks either.
Parents who work but put or have children put in Forster homes to pay for upkeep.
Superannuation in two parts, 9% in to retirement as now, any future rise to pay till it runs out instead of pensions.
Trade off, injured unable to work get better income true needy more help.
Unemployed to work, at going rates, to benefit community and must turn up and work.
these few thoughts come from lifetime unionist, one who knows our safety net has by some been turned in tom a shield to keep work away.
As always, some will fight me, tell me no one bludgers on us, sorry, most true crims use the welfare to back up in quite times.

we are only .2 off full employment,
579,
you wouldn't be comfortable with that figure if you were one of those earning 150.- a week because you're deemed fully employed by working two days a week.

We in fact have 5% unemployment.
For some it is a lifetime job, being on welfare.
Wealth creation leads to what, more poor it in the end stays with the one percent.
Is constant growth in personal wealth achievable? is it wanted.
Constant growth in the economy, who gos back so we go forward.
Germany's growth was somes failure.
Population growth endlessly?
Growth, there may be a better answer a sustainable one.

Those who depend on perpetual growth better learn new management practices. They'd better look at sustaining or even lower the present levels. We do not really need this growth, it's the greed mongers who push it for their personal interests & to our detriment. No point waffling on about not understanding business or investment or indeed anything to do with the money market. tell me you can manage with what you've got not with what you can do if you get more. Getting more is no challenge, making do with what you've got is. Take a good look at a Nasa pic of our Planet Earth & then think that it doesn't grow so what makes you think you can keep pushing this mindless growth agenda. It's gonna put us all into the crap pot. Show us your managing skills without growth & see how brilliant you are.

indivuall mate clearly you havnt heard of the expanding earth theory
[i think by neal adams]..

just google expanding earth at you tube

anyhow by watching the earths histry..back to when we were one land[gandwanna]..to the fractured earth we see today..you see continious growth..of the actual earth

via things like pole shifts..[and the next one is due in less than a year]..plus the bible says two thirds will die..unless we make excuse to end the sufferings[ie plan for it]

we know what plates will sink
what plates will arise from the depths
yet here we are arguing about govt debt..and govts obsessing to take ever more tax..and turn us into debt slaves..

killing off the teqnology
that dosnt rely on wind or solar
[seems the dust cloud of a poleshift
puts the whole globe into a year of darkness]

thus no solar./.[so why waste money on solar..
when [if]..we most need it..it dont work]

but even then..growth..isnt applicable to persons..[some live at huge expense to the globe..others live lightly on their footprint

the rule should be
the more you use..the more it costs you
not us mug taxpayers being taxed to death

I had other thoughts in mind than the threads direction.
Yes we can not grow forever.
Not the economy's not population nothing can grow endlessly.
But we know growth is what almost every one wants.
Growth in personal wealth, family, we want more,of almost every thing.
My inability to put in words my thoughts left us heading in every direction.
I am no word smith, my lurch in to welfare was an attempt to get thinkers producing ways to cut different forms of growth.
To introduce some sustainability in to our way of life.
Say housing, we race each other to build Mac Mansions, even planning to down size late in life?
But once wished to live out our life in one home.
My home was once a 1970,s business mans home 5 bedrooms, not now but I would be just as happy in at wo bedroom one.
I wounder, truly question, can we survive without growth.
Is there another way? yes but we have not yet considered it maybe invented it .

The only growth that can possibly save us in the long run is a growth in mortality rate & a growth in sterilisation.

Good morning individual.
No way around this.
You and I clash, at every opportunity.
You may remember a thread that saw the late C J Morgan and myself, reach out to you.
Our departed poster tried very hard to get you to put some meat on your thoughts.
To express just what you required of humanity what directions and changes.
Sorry, your simplistic, some what weird, short jabs do not give me hope, even you under stand your words.
Sterilization? of who, judged by who, why.
I hope not your self.

short jabs do not give me hope,
Belly,
they're not supposed to, they're to make people think more about the dire straits we're in.

Sterilization? of who, judged by who, why.

no, I'm not the one to judge that. I'm the one though who believes that if people don't want to to curb their excesses & demand that I keep paying for them then I reserve the right to deny paying. I consciously deprive myself of some excesses because I KNOW I can't afford them. Should I ask others to pay for what I can't afford ? Same goes for population. Give incentives to parents to have less children instead of helping them to breed more & constantly expect others to feed them. Unions are like that too. Always asking for more from others, never from themselves.

Indy you should try to put views and thoughts together that are inviting others to agree.
I challenge your use of unions as an insult, to me.
If I was a member of the chamber of commerce, RSL local bowling club.
And the fact I am a member of my NRL club, ham radio club,Labor party, these things are not evil.
They exist, for every one of us, in our chosen self interests.
A blind mouse thing exists here, supported by the right, but too by those most reliant on unions.
A view over looking multi, yes multi million dollar salary's,of big business men and women.
Paid for by us,the end user, a willing forgetfulness,that unions are not as bad.
I want to point this out to you,I see no crisis in this country.
Tony Abbott, look it up check on me,told ENGLAND Australia's financial position is good, and the envy of the world.
What position we are in.
Growth needs a look but first we must not retreat from truth to gain points of no importance,this thread trys to address world wide issue not a phantom Australian one.

Just a thought
In the Sydney Morning Herald this morning.
A new conservative Senator in his maiden speech.
Called for a big Australia, two new City's in the north.
Increased population, seems this, in his view fixes a problem, we are under populated.

Then if we did this, if we came back in say 200 years would the Australia of that day not find over population its problem?

Belly,
I have no intention of insulting you or anyone else for that matter. I like to point out serious flaws & if people choose to be insulted by the facts that they produce then it is their dilemma, not mine.
As for the unions being not as bad I take it you're talking in the past sense.
A conservative calling for two new cities in the North ? I can see the merit in that provided they're made up of existing citizens not new imports. It would certainly make living in the north cheaper than it is presently. Personally, I wouldn't like new cities rather build up & make the ones we have more efficient. My personal big favourite is the Bradfield scheme as this would really impact in a very positive situation all round. It would take the pressure off the coast & re-vitalise inland Australia in both climate & economic.

Individual I thank you for your advice you intend to insult no one.
As I still find no reason for sterilization, for a form of national service to contain rampart youth I am unable to see.
I am unsure what you want and why.
I am aware growth is called progress but fear it brings the very worst problems closer.
I could ask about the down side in growth.
Growth in debt, population, energy use/needs hansard has a full record of the senators speech, in my view he, unknowingly, calls for damage to us all.

I am aware growth is called progress but fear it brings the very worst problems closer.
Belly,
It's erroneously described as progress. I reality it is progressive regress & yes, economic D-day is inching closer.
1936 Germany was in a similar state & they found a brilliant way out of it. Tragically though, the fanatic elements hijacked what could have been a good thing for all & utterly ruined it & caused this incomprehensible misery.

individual,

What incomprehensible misery?.....where is the incomprehensible misery.....?

Whingey-whiny Westerners tend to exaggerate their irritations into much greater woes.

Poirot,
my I suggest you live up to your name ?

individual,

Perhaps it's a case of your descriptive powers being a little over the top.

Incomprehensible misery was something I saw as the Japanese tsunami unfolded. Incomprehensible misery was written on the faces of the people of Gaza as the Israeli bombs rained down. Incomprehensible misery is etched in the faces of those dying of starvation in east Africa......that is incomprehensible misery.

A few times I have made remarks about the relationship between energy and GDP.
An article has been written Gail Tverberg on just this subject.
I think it will help everyones understanding of what is going on
in Europe, the US and China.

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2011-11-22/it-really-possible-decouple-gdp-growth-energy-growth

In effect, we are completely dependant on increases in natural gas to
cover our present GDP and any growth we may desire as existing energy has peaked.

Misery Indy is as Poirot says, I have seen true misery here in this country.
But heard of true hopeless misery in places we go to play Bali and Fiji for a start.
I see no benefit for anyone, in others misery.
I recommend, as one of life greatest joys, helping some one in need true need.
It can be more joy than any thing.
I too fear war, I think our growth,and especially our financial problems, world ones, may lead to wars.
Bazz yes we are close to that but gas is just truly starting.
And in truth did we even know about the uses coal seam gas could be put to 50 years ago.
This I know, every year, less, solar power gets more efficient and cheaper who knows how good it can become?

Belly, the real question becomes;

"Can we transition to natural gas faster than oil and coal depletes ?".

I suspect that we will not have the financial resources to undertake the massive infrastructure rebuilding fast enough.

Perhaps it's a case of your descriptive powers being a little over the top.
Poirot,
I'm dead sure that the holocaust victims would argue your point.
Growth is for those who can't perform. If you want to learn how to manage without growth may I suggest you join a standard australian family on a basic income. That, my friend, is managing without the convenience of growth backing your every incompetent tactic.
What the Germans did was to simply print more money. That stimulated their economy without inflation & without dumbar$ed Government wasting our funds. It can be done, the proof's out there. Of course the hangers on would need to pull their finger out. It won't be long before Germany employs a similar tactic after the Euro's had it's day.

individual,

I think you realise that I was critiquing your description of our current economic/political situation as "incomprehensible misery".
The German offensive of World War II and the ensuing Holocaust, of course, "was" incomprehensible misery to those affected....your comparison of it to our present situation "is" way over the top.

Peak oil Bazz to me does not look like a bell curve
Peak in my thoughts is the very top and the fall will not be a straight finish to oil.
It, in my view will be little little less sharpe than a bell curve.
How ever lets Say it is a bell curve.
And that the peak is a Sharpe one.
Even make the decline much sharper .
Now we have something else.
But surely ten years to find something new?
I think we could without trouble, convert to Natural Gas in that time, for every thing we needed to.
It may well be fuel will be twice its current price soon, for me this talks more about governments afraid to invest in new fuels, waiting till things get worse.
And addicted to tax.and the greens thoughts taxing it makes us use less.
Most of rural Australia is victim to that silly idea, forgetting the once Sunday drive was in affect good for highway shops and the kids.

Well Belly, it certainly is not sharp on the top.
It has been near flat but bumpy on the top since 2004.
That is the great guessing game at present as to when it turns down.
The experts study existing production rates, the progress of new
wells, the decline of existing fields then they grind them all up in
their computers and come up with decline between now and 2018.
The average of estimates is 2005.

To transition to natural gas is quite possible, but the cost of fitting
out every service station, to start converting existing high usage
fleets of cars and trucks and waiting for the rest of the fleets to
become obsolete will need an enormous amount of money and energy.

Then the real question, will the funds be available to do it ?

OK Bazz let us say we got to the top in 2004
And that the climb to that point was one hundred years long.
We both know the decent will be much less, increased population and use.
Say 15 years.
Think that is about right? I do not,but lets say.
Governments would know ok.
By increasing costs/tax's they still can not extend the end date, we will pay what it costs.
Now I do not believe its 15 years till the end.
I fear the silliness in the back ground as greens warn only making public transport free will fix it.
Question, given public transport was free,roads less congested why not spend on fuel to drive on roads rather than be sardined in to a train.
We must consider implications of every action but mate we will find answers.