The owners of Qantas, the shareholders, have approved the pay increase for their CEO, which means, they are satisfied with his performance.

Now, considering they are in fact, the real employers, it's time the striking workers get over the fact that the CEO is paid what he is and, if they don't like it, they can either aspire to take his place, leave, or get over it.

The whole issue is that for Qantas to remain a viable business, they simply can't remain to operate here under the IR restrictions this country has, as it places them at a server disadvantage on the global market, and this is before the carbon tax kicks in.

So the striking workers have to either get the message or risk thier jobs, it's thier call.

rehctub,
don't for one minute believe that the shareholders have an interest in Qantas. They just as quickly move their shares to the Qantas buyer as soon as the writing is on the wall. Shareholders are low-life to a large extent, they don't give a crap about jobs for workers. They only get scared $hitless when their greed calculations look shaky.

There has got to be more behind the scenes. How can you reward bad management, Qantas has been going downhill for several years now. I sadly think qantas is on the verge of a disaster. They have not capitalized on their safety record. And are further downgrading their risk assessment. They don't seem to have the capacity to settle a dispute, and yet the boss is awarded an extra two million.

579,
yep, looks as though Qantas is part of the banks rather than aviation & even more to the point, customer service. re customer service one could be forgiven to think Qantas is part of Telstra.

Get over it?
No, let some facts speak.
The pay rise is in part to make up for rises not taken last time.
In part a BONUS he will not get.
He must see extraordinary share price rises before payment.
Get over it, some commentators are uninformed.

Yeah! well the over payed CEO,s better pull up quick smart or they will find themselves with a business that will be worth nothing.

The amount of money payed to them is ridiculous. Its the workers that makes them wealthy. If they wont pay, we wont work. They have families and lives to live that's just as important as these kings of f..k all....and if they don't pull up quickly, loses will be the order of the day:)

( 5 kids and a partner = $47.ooo a year, plus part time job...$55.000,......so go and laugh that one off Mr CEO......and haft a week to go fishing:) its better than putting up with your crumbs Mr Scrooges!

The best why to fix a smart-arse rich man, is to give him a taste of the poor.

No workers, No business.

Time is money, and their clocks is ticking:)

Have a nice day.

CACTUS

Get over it, some commentators are uninformed.
Belly,
fair enough. Can you please let us know how much baggage handlers get paid all up allowances included ? How do their wages compare to a store man handling goods ?

Just heard the news about the fleet grounding. Get into position to watch the investment rats getting off the good ship Qantas as the shares cop a bashing.

Individual.....QANTAS shares are going down as we speak, but the hard line the CEO,s want to take, will cost them dearly. See, the numbers I put above is what one can get on unemployment benefits, and the inventive family man can live better than working for the likes of Qantas. There profits margins are huge and the public only gets the doctored figures. ( corruption!...why do you think the world is in such a mess...GREED! )

Qantas are some of the lowest wages good people have to put up with, and like I told belly a while ago, Australian workers wont back each others play.;;;( but I think their learning:) )

In and out of Centre link doors for life and not knowing the security back when there was some. Yes, now thanks to the likes of QANTAS CEO,s, no-one can plan or rest easy, and that's what they want....WHY? So you have to grovel and take work-place agreements and alike.

Capitalist/CEO,s are the new Hitlers, and we know what happen with that:) The profits belong to all and not just the self appointed dictators of the greedy bank-rupted world we have today.

Socialism is the only way to stop them.

Enjoy.

CACTUS

The next few days will be quite interesting to say the least.

It is hard to work out what the Qantas management strategy is all about as no matter what there will be a lot of damage to the brand as they call it.

I have a feeling that this will be the end of the airline as such. If Qantas continues to fly in the future it will be a much smaller organsiation.

I also suspect those making the decisions have little national pride when it comes to the airline and are not willing to accept that there is an element of national pride when it comes to Qantas despite it now being a private entity. This national pride has a cost without doubt but those in power and shareholders are obviously not willing to pay that price no matter the amount.

This is business today. We may have to accept it but we certainly do not have to like it.

Take it easy.

SD

*This national pride has a cost without doubt but those in power and shareholders are obviously not willing to pay that price no matter the amount.*

Its not those in power or the airlines, Shaggy dog. Its the public
buying airlines tickets. Fact is that the international section
of Qantas was losing 200 million$ a year. People will clearly not
pay the higher ticket prices it needs, to pay some of the highest
wages on the planet, as paid to Qantas staff. And if people won't
pay, then its pointless Qantas losing that kind of money each year.
Much better to shut that section down completeley. Its called
sensible business practise.

Belly, so much for your imformed opinion of this strike being
nearly over :)

It's not so much th wages these people get paid, but rather the allowances and penalty rates that cause the problems.

The fact is we demand a seven day society, yet, we on the other hand wish to be paid fo the privilege.

Unfortunately, our IR laws are now starting to bite hard.

Hav you been to a restaurant lately and seen the poor value for money no on offer.this is simp,y due to IR laws, as the only way for restaurants to make money today is to cut cost elsewhere.

They charge $30 for a steak, which they paid less than $6.00 for. Why! Because they have no choice.

A much better way would be to add a surcharge on public holidays and Sunday's, thats on almost everthing but the government won't have it, hear in QLD anyway.

This idear of placing h burden on business must stop, or you risk having far less jobs out there.

Don't believe me, just keep pushing and we will see who is right.

Actually, I think that Joyce is playing this quite cleverly, lets
hope he sticks to his guns.

Yesterday he got the overwhelming support of his shareholders, that
this needs sorting out, once and for all.

The unions have been trashing the Qantas brand over and over again
for yonks now, with we will strike, then we won't strike, etc.
Just plain dirty tactics. You can't run an airline that way.

As the unions demanded complete job security for 3 years and refused
to give way on that point, threatening to keep their bully boy
tactics going for months, Joyce has brought it to a head. Better
deal with it now, then drag it out. Just like on the wharves, it
needs a showdown. Out with the outdated 1960s thuggery and backward
work practises, the world is changing, live with it.

If the unions want to run Qantas, their members could easily buy
the company with their super savings. The brand has already been
trashed and is only worth a quarter of what it once was.

Yabby,

What I meant was that Nationalism does come at a price and whether that price is affordable or not the Qantas management and shareholders wants no part of it as it would, even if affordable, diminish profits.

That is a modern business. Profits above all else.

Take it easy.

SD

*That is a modern business. Profits above all else.*

Lets put it this way, Shaggy. If you'd saved all your life
and bought a house and then decided to rent it out, I assume
you'd not think it unreasonable to charge some rent. If I
put it to you that you should let me rent it for free, as
it was in the national interest, despite my earning 140-500k$
a year, would you do so?

That is effectively what the unions want from the Qantas
shareholders.

Yabby,

Obviously not and I do not dispute the need to make a profit and my remarks as to Qantas are a bit hypothetical as I have no idea as to their margins and costs.

I just note that many businesses are profit above all else with little regard for the social consequences.

I also feel Qantas management has made some decisions in more recent times that have placed them where they are now.

It may appear to be nothing more than a dispute between management and unions but I sense the problems are far deeper rooted than that and have been allowed to build up over time to the current blame game situation that now exists.

Too many decisions too late, having a dramatic effect on all concerned.

Take it easy.

SD

SD, thier profit margin is around 4% net.

Now if you had a lazy $100K to invest, and you could buy a business, or part there of, risks included, at a 4% return, or, you could get 5.5% from the bank, no risk, which option would you take.

Well, this is exactly what qantas is facing.

Furthermore, this 4% profit can turn into a loss with a simple event like 1 or 2 cents per Lt increase in fuel costs, that's how fine margins are today.

The risk for Qantas now is that their competitors could well bury them for good by simply starting a discount fare war, which they can because they pay something like 25% less in wages alone.

Of cause if this happens, Qantas staff will be highly paid, but without jobs.

My fear is that to much damage has already been done and if this happens it will be a national disgrace and the unions will have blood on thier hands.

But of cause, they will blame management.

Once these unions got the power back, the writing was on the wall, it's just that you can't see it sitting on the other side of the fence.

Does anyone know how much people like the baggage handlers get paid?

I have sat on both sides of the desk in aviation, not at the level Qanatas operates at, but I do have a reasonable feeling for the business. Unlike members of this forum I am not privy to the way Qantas is structured and how it works internally. Hence my comments are of a general nature and cannot be at the same level of knowledge of others who have posted.

There does appear to have been some odd decisions made back a bit that have not prepared Qantas for the global situation it now finds itself in. I appreciate hindsight is 20/20 and in colour but other organisations appear to have seen what was coming and were better prepared from an equipment and management point of view. Talking about Qantas here, not Jetstar.

Outsourcing is essential and has been a fact for many years and is not always popular. I have been criticised for outsourcing myself over the years but many maintenance and overhaul tasks are just not viable to be carried out internally.

Aviation is a very complex business and cannot be presented to the public in the simplistic terms one sees on TV or in the papers and have the public expect to understand what is actually going on.

The Qantas fiasco has far more bubbling below the surface than just a dispute over wages and conditions. I unlike some on this forum will never know entirely what are the root causes and do not expect to know as I will never be privy to the inner machinations of the parties involved.

I shall retire from the field and leave the answers to those pundits who obviously have access to the boardroom and or closed door union discussions.

Take it easy.

SD

Ref third para. Bad phrasing. I did not outsource myself but I imagine there were times the staff wish I had done so !!

SD

Not sure benk, but more than a butcher who has done a trade and that's a disgrace.

Two million pay rise, not bad when you have ten million worth of shares yourself. He shouldn't be allowed to use his power to award a pay rise to himself.

579, if you check you will find that 97% of the shareholders gave
Joyce his payrise, so his own shares have little to do with it.

I saw an extensive interview with him this morning explaining things
in detail and I have to say I cannot fault his reasoning skills.
He might look like a leprechaun, but by geezes, he clearly has
testicles.

In that sense he deserves every penny. The shareholders have clearly
had a gutful of militant unions thinking that Qantas should only
exist for the benefit of employees. They are paying him to sort it
out, which is one hell of a challenge.

The unions took no notice of shareholder opinion and were quite
prepared to bleed the business to death, slowly, week by week.
People won't book advance tickets on an airline where there is
uncertainty wether they will fly or not.

The actions which Joyce has taken were the only ones left to him
under the Fairwork act. Good on him for showing guts and intellect.

If the unions want to run Qantas, let them buy it, which is quite
within their financial capability.

The vote was 97%, that was 97% of board members which are all share holders.

Nope 579, that is to be exact, 96% of shareholders. All shareholders
get a vote on the salaries of executives. If you owned shares,
you would have gotten a vote too.

Yabby,

"Good on him for showing guts and intellect."

Seems pretty loony to me...in any case, at least people won't be confused as to whether or not Qantas is a reliable airline. Having all its planes on the ground instead of in the air is a dead giveaway there - and during CHOGM and the run-up to the Melbourne Cup too.

But, Yabby, you seem to think you're an expert of "stuff like this". What sort of damage will this have on the "reputation" of Qantas? Surely you can't be serious in thinking it's a clever response?

It seems like more of a monumental hissy fit.

*Surely you can't be serious in thinking it's a clever response?*

Of course I am serious, Poirot. Joyce clearly has the capacity to
think things through, not just about next week.

Fact is after the shareholder meeting, unions were quite willing
to continue their guerilla tactcs for another year. "We will strike,
then we won't strike", is an old tactic which does maximum damage
to the company, at little cost to the employees. How much damage
do you think that the brand would have suffered, if this had
continued for a year? How many people would have booked Qantas
tickets?

Fact is that Qantas are losing 200 million $ a year on their
international routes as people choose cheaper Asian carriers. You
either restructure that end of the business or shut it down. That
is good business practise.

This dispute is not about wages, its about who runs the airline,
management or the workers. If workers want to run it, they should
buy it.

Joyce has drawn a line in the sand. You can't operate an airline,
if nobody knows wether the planes will fly or not. You need certainty.
Without that certainty, the best thing is to leave those planes on
the tarmac until there is an answer. Bleeding Qantas to death slowly,
week by week, which the unions were quite prepared to do, is not
an option.

Its a tough decision, but its the correct one.

If an act of terrorism had this effect on Qantas' fleet we'd be calling for heads.

The simple fact is Qantas is not competitive and, to become competitive they must restructure, which means, they either go elsewhere, or, they pay their Australian workers what the competitors pay, which is far less, but the unions won't wear that.

Then there is the cost of compliance, as this adds even more costs to thier operating budget.

The end result is that these stricking workers and thier unions may well be the end of this icon.

The flow on effects from this, should it occur, may well cause many ripples for us.

They are the highest paid workers within thier industry and they are still not happy.

Perhaps they need to loose thier jobs so they can have a reality check.

rechtub and yabby,

Of course there's always two sides to every dispute. That said, the effects of this action will reach far beyond the mere interests of the airline.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-30/peter-ryan-analysis-on-qantas-grounding/3608832

Poirot, of course it affects interests other then the airline. As
did the rolling strikes and guerilla tactics of the union, which
seemingly would have gone on for the next year, whilst the airline
bled more and more. Perhaps you should read the double page
Geoffrey Thomas article in Saturday's West, about what happens
to airlines who refuse to adapt to change. Thomas understands the
airline industry much better then your ABC person.

The thing is this. If you decide to buy a business, then you
have the right to manage that business. If you hire staff who
are seemingly determined to send you broke and want to manage the
business, then you have every right to protest and take action.

If the unions want to run the business, then they should buy it,
its well within their financial means to do so.

This has farvreaching potential as if the union gets it's way this could be like a cancer to all major business in this country.

These staff are on huge wages, compared to thier global counterparts yet they just won't accept it.

Qantas has been left with no choice and as yabby says, if you want to run the business, buy it.

This is only the beginning in this country, and the sad part is we warned you all before these IR laws handed thuggery rights back to the unions.

By the way, where is the IL INFORMED belly in all this.

<These staff are on huge wages, compared to thier global counterparts yet they just won't accept it.>

Wasn't a similar argument used to justify slavery? And the economic collapse which followed showed that the plantations were only profitable with slave labour. Perhaps when an industry can only survive with a downward wage spiral it isn't worth keeping. The answer might be to look for more profitable industry elsewhere.

Rechtub try not to be so heated.
Up the thread you may remember I left the thread.
Your threads bring folk such as Individual, no understanding or intention to consider the subject exists there.
Come here and read other contributions.
See what both sides think.
Consider.
Just maybe, preconceived views are not the whole story.
MATE your form,I study form still, shows you jump out of the stalls early on industrial issues.
Tend to charge for the rails run knocking others over and the wind out of your self.
By the turn out of wind you are 5 lengths last refusing to believe you have been passed, comes from hanging your head over the rails and refusing to look each side.
QUANTAS
both sides wanted to kill the other same legal firm back bosses as port lock out while admitting wrong on both sides am TOTALLY! behind unions.
Joyce will go, but his job always was come turn Quantas in to an Asian airline take his money and run.

What a lot of frogsswabble, pre empting the decision of a tribunal. All you have done is wasted ink. There was other avenues to take, before going world wide. This will presumably do untold damage to qantas, the leprecorn should find another toadstool to sit on.

579,
Belly won't give us an answer so perhaps you could oblige. How much do Qantas baggage handlers get paid ? I suspect it's too embarrassing an amount for Belly to reveal ?

The only way for Qantas, moving forward is to take thier business elsewhere because, our unions ad IR laws have made running an internationally competitive business here next to impossible, unless of cause you want to continue risking billions for 4% return, remembering, they can earn 6% sitting on thier hands.

The jobs must go off shore, or the workers and unions must accept that thier pay and conditions are now unsustainable.

This won't happen as it would set a precedence that would go thought our home based industries like a cancer.

I am afraid to suggest that it is GAME OVER!

Best book you appointment with centre link.

On another note, how typical of this incompitent government to have sat on the fence until it collapsed then take credit for fixing something they helped to create.

What a joke they are.

Bring on the next election.

Ok, baggage handlers at Qantas are on, get this, $75 to $80 K per year, for what is essentially unskilled work and, THEY ARE NOT HAPPY!

F them, give the jobs to someone who really wants a job.

BTW, if this is the benchmark, what are our police worth?

More proof those striking and thier unions are a joke.

Two million for the asking, and yet you ramble on. I thought the outcome was handled as designed. And so they should take credit for a solution that should have been handled internally, and not globally.

What they (the gov) should have done was to intervene before this situation evolved, but of cause, they had the unions to consider.

What the CEO and board did is the gutsiest move I have seen.

5% sore in the share price says it all.

"The owners have agreed to it, so get over it"
I don't recall the previous owners (the public) getting any say if that company were to be sold off, so I don't see why it is justified now a corrupt CEO is holding a good portion of the nation's air travel hostage solely to blackmail a union into submission over him taking a payrise for cutting corners of a company he didn't even pay for, and running it into the ground.

*Two million for the asking, and yet you ramble on.*

Actually 579, that is not quite correct. Its been pointed out by
those in the know, like James Strong and Geoffrey Thomas.

Joyce actually had a 9% salary decrease and his bonus will only
be paid if he can turn the airline around and the share price
reaches certain share price targets, which is unlikely.

So the two million were not for the asking, but will be paid if
he performs and works a miracle, against all the odds.

Meanwhile, the likes of Hugh Jackman get paid tens of millions just for making a movie, whether it's a hit or a flop, and not one single complaint.

Everyone hates the CEO,s.

This Qantas fiasco is just the beginning, so brace yourselves for a rocky road ahead, as even the greens have acknowledged the likes of Qantas are not competing on a level playing field an as such, have asked for government assistance.

Of cause they can't help one without helping all and, given that they have pissed all our money away, and some, it will be interesting seeing how they go about trying to save these jobs.

Good luck!

http://www.payscale.com/research/AU/Job=Baggage_Handler_

Try this link for thier pay rates

Rehtub

The link that you posted suggests that the baggage handlers are on $30-60 000. People like governments shouldn't feel afraid to publicise accurate information about how much people are paid when there is industrial action. The top figure does seem a bit high and if it is true, I am sure that public opinion would turn against the airline workers.

Sorry about that benk, wrong link
Try this,

They get paid upwards of 20 per cent above the industry rate and earn between $70,000 to $85,000 a year including penalty rates.
F the unions. They are crippling an Australian icon.
70 000 Passengers have been disrupted by them in the past 9 months. Union action have caused nearly $70 million in cost to Qantas in the past 9 months since this action started. Why are they trying to bleed the company they work for to death?
What about the people who work for Qantas but are not taking union action, unions are pushing so hard that there will be NO jobs for any of them in the future.
Remember Ansett? The mindset of management and unions f,d it for everybody, employee's committed suicide over it, 16000 of workers ended up unemployed and most likely on the dole because unions tried to bleed it for everything it had (and other reasons like AirNZ).
Unions are being greedy, 70-85k a year for an unskilled worker in Australia is top dollar. Then they threaten their employer with strike action which would cost 15 million a week to Qantas?
This country is outrageous, the sense of entitlement has gone to the extremes. From reading comments about Qantas today, Reddit is full of left wing assholes who would be happy to cripple their employer and watch them crumble.
, some people who have degree's do not even get paid this amount. Any decent unemployed, unskilled Australian would work for 55k a year and be happy.
Good on Joyce for standing up to these assholes finally. As for his pay rise, i don't agree with it 100%, but he more than doubled its annual net profit to $249 million last year!? He deserves to be rewarded for that.
Vote this down as much as you like, you are probably in a cushy job with the govt or a union backed industry and don't have a real grip on what its like in the real world as a business owner.

I think your pay rates are a bit rubbery. Baggage handler for qantas New starter $ 26,255 10 - 19 yrs exp $45,458
Flight attendant 30 to 67,000 on yrs of service.
Commercial pilot jet 48,360 to 230,734.

"the likes of Hugh Jackman get paid tens of millions just for making a movie, whether it's a hit or a flop, and not one single complaint."
Well I personally DID complain about that horrid "Australia" movie as it got a public bail-out.
But besides that, you would have to tell me if Hugh Jackman ever:
-purchased a public utility and use it for extortion
-Anyone were forced to see his movies- as we are forced to use a plane to get around long distances in an appreciable amount of time.

Face the fact that this has got nothing to do with 'tall poppy syndrome' and everything to do with blatant corruption involving a service that could hold much of our country's logistics hostage- along with watching someone abuse an asset that the public used to own. If anything you just proved this to be true in your post.

Of course, I should point out again that if we never sold Qantas, this wouldn't be happening at all, and the airline would actually still be worth using.
As it stands, it has grown so bad I am actually quite happy if it collapses outright, and foreign airlines fill its place. It has passed its prime.

AP765516 - Airline Operations (Qantas Airways Limited) Award 1999

PART 5 - WAGES AND RELATED MATTERS

19. WAGE RATES

19.1 Minimum weekly wage

[19.1 substituted by R6246; varied by T4288 PR910411 PR923572 PR936084 PR950103; PR961354 ppc 03Sep05]

Adult employees must be paid a minimum wage rate per week in accordance with the following table:

NON-AIRCRAFT TRADESPEOPLE AND OTHERS

Classification
Min. Rate

Carpenter
$578.20

Carpenter aircraft
$582.90

Dresser - outside enclosed cabin
$492.80

Drivers towmotors/tractors
$505.20

Electronic and Instrument Fitter
$603.20

Painter-tradesperson
$578.20

Painter (spray)/signwriter aircraft
$585.50

Plumber and gasfitter
$578.20

Process Worker
$489.90

Refrigeration & airconditioning mechanic
$578.20

Sheetmetal worker 1st class - non aircraft
$578.20

Tradesperson fitter/turner non-aircraft
$578.20

Tradesperson’s assistant
$499.30

Tradesperson’s assistant/rigger
$548.80

All others - not including adult male clerk
$478.70


CATERING SERVICE ATTENDANT

Classification
Min. Rate

Level 1
$495.70

Level 2
$524.60

Level 3
$540.40

Chef : Base
$578.20

Level 1
$601.90

Level 2
$619.10

Level 3
$640.40

Level 4
$670.20


ENGINEERING AND MAINTENANCE CLASSIFICATIONS (UNLICENSED)

Classification
Min. Rate

Non-aircraft tradesperson
$578.20

Aircraft maintenance engineer (mechanical), grade 1
$591.50

(Avionic) grade 1
$591.50

(Mechanical) grade 1A
$613.60

(Avionic) grade 1A
$613.60

(Mechanical) grade 2
$622.70

(Avionic) grade 2
$622.70

(Mechanical) grade 3
$648.30

(Avionic) grade 3
$648.30

(Mechanical) grade 4
$673.90

(Avionic) grade 4
$673.90

(Avionic) grade 5
$703.80

(Avionic) grade 6
$731.70

Maintenance assistant, level 1
$507.70

Maintenance assistant, level 2
$517.60

Maintenance assistant, level 3
$564.10

Aircraft maintenance trimmer, grade 1
$601.50

Aircraft Maintenance trimmer, grade 2
$622.70


PROPERTY MAINTENANCE CLASSIFICATIONS

Classification
Min. Rate

Property maintenance tradesperson-base
$578.20

Level 1
$601.50

Level 2
$622.70

Level 3
$648.30

Level 4
$673.90

Maintenance assistant 2A (Property)
$548.30


TRANSPORT MAINTENANCE TRADESPERSON

Classification
Min. Rate

Transport maintenance tradesperson base
$578.20

Level 1
$601.50

Level 2
$622.70

Level 3
$648.30

Level 4
$673.90

Maintenance assistant 2A (Transport)
$548.30


AIRCRAFT MAINTENANCE PAINTER /PANEL BEATER /CARPENTER /TRIMMER /STRUCTURE

Classification
Min. Rate

Aircraft maintenance painter/panel beater - base
$578.20

Level 1
$601.50

Level 2
$622.70

Level 3
$648.30

Level 4
$673.90


STOREPERSONS

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=the%20award%20wages%20for%20qantas&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fwa.gov.au%2Fconsolidated_awards%2FAP%2FAP765516%2Fap765516-19.htm&ei=j1ezTvq9CcWsiAKa67Rz&usg=AFQjCNH7wKySEWrMBnO-a7f8XG_dUUP5kA

Enjoy

CACTUS