We all have the right to go somewhere and voice our concern over what ever it is that's irking us, but at some point other member's of our society have the right to enjoy the same areas we may be gathered in voicing our concerns. At the very least, they have the right to wander through, past, or around, without fear. If at any point during our little rally we annoy someone the police have the right to ask us to leave. Considering our few dozen are annoying many thousands of people. If we decide that we won't move away and let others be there without fear or interference the police have the right to physically move us. If we refuse to walk, they have the right to drag us away.

What's hard to understand, hippies?

I had to laugh at information on Twitter coming from "#OccupyMelbourne" was from iPhones by and large. Many enjoyed their Starbucks coffee too. Hilarious. I guess 'Apple' isn't part of that 1%.

There is a modicum of colourful truth in what you say Stg, but in the case of Victoria the actions of the authorities border on police brutality or excessive use of force. If 150'000 people turn up to do the same thing what do we do then Stg, bring in the tanks and the tear gas ?.

As we have been witnessing in the so called Arab spring of late, abuse of power is exactly the thing a citizen doesn't need, when trying to express their opinion both peacefully and democratically.

There's always two sides to the story.

"Occupy Melbourne," started out as a peaceful protest.
Consisting of people talking to each other about political
alternatives - and it looked like a very positive course
of action. However, as with all demonstrations, it did
attract its fair share of ratbags.
And from sticking to a peaceful demonstration it started
to evolve into "squatter city."

The protestors were finally
issued with eviction notices after six days of "squatting."
And were told to pack up their tents, kitchens, et cetera,
and move on. Most did, except for about 100 that chose to
remain. All in all the demonstration had been a success -
it got confrontational only in the last day - with police
taking severe action to remove those that refused to go.
The action of the police is now being investigated.

Perhaps both the protesters and the police will learn something
from all of this. It would be a pity if peaceful demonstrations
were outlawed due to the radical reactions of a few.

They got their point across, but failed to go home when the police suggested they should. How long can you put up with obstructing the daily lives of other people.

Hippies? gee going back a bit now.
The issue is worth defending and protesting about.
I support the movement world wide.
But it will be defeated,without changing anything.
In part by those infecting it.
And by its own in fighting.
POWER will kill it.
The police who flog the odd protester, media who highlight the worse, all work , without understanding it for the one percent.
And know, like most youth movements,those protesting are not idle tree hugger, but tomorrows leaders.
Of every side of politics.
They can bring change, can even win, but not without unloading the flea,s flys and bush tics ever willing to infest such groups.
I see groups even now,who could not buy a crowd with free meat pies , running around in their midst.
Flags of the lets be seen fools.
Take it to its birth place the net.
Do not block roads, do not let idiots start riots fight them, win over the public.
Find places to mass that harm no one, film, no not idiots true film the bashings, they do take place.
Be proud to occupy the high moral ground.
Those who come to be seen are best left at home sit and be seen to just want change.
Winning people over works, turning them away is no victory,

The right to protest is part of the democratic process however, protesters make more impact (and more friends) if they do not overstay their welcome or impede the movements of others to a great degree. It would be a better strategy to avail themselves of the number of parks and other open spaces where protesters could retreat if their presence becomes a nuisance factor.

Sometimes the 'cause' gets lost in the mayhem.

I am absolutely seething about the actions of the authorities using such violent tactics on peaceful protesters. We should all be condemning this in the strongest terms. The 'Occupy' movements in the US have certainly turned ugly on occasion and I know their police forces can be brutal but the reaction on what happened in Melbourne from some of the US sites was one of shock. These weren't petrol bomb throwing anarchists in Rome. My God they are fellow Australians who were brutally assaulted by those we give a licence to power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGqcpPTS2q4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

While I was a little ambivilent about the 'Occupy Melbourne' protest I am certainly not about the violence inflicted on them.

It is not acceptable.

I have a busy work week but I will see if I can get a day free to head over to show some support.

Thinker 2.

Actually a good point. Do you think the 150,000 people would clean up the mess they make from destroying their own city?

clean up the mess
StG,
don't like your chances after all we can't even get this Govt do that.

Dear Individual,

Certainly the Opposition's destruction of
everything doesn't help either.

Lexi,
can you put your money where your blind prejudice is ? What have they destroyed ? What hasn't Labor destroyed ? I'd like to see some answers here please.

Can anyone further enlighten me on the relationship between Dr John Casey, Mark Goudkamp, The Refugee Action Ccoalition and Occupy Sydney?
Casey is an advocate of globalisation and open borders, he's lectured on immigration policy for free trade and international movement of labour.
What's more he advises Police forces on "Multicultural Policing" and was involved in the drafting of the 1996 Rotterdam Charter on diversity and Policing.
Mr Goudkamp and Dr Casey have presented numerous talks and seminars together under the auspices of the RAC and Mr Goudkamp has been the public face of Occupy Sydney.
Time constraints don't permit me to quote Dr Casey at length but even his CV is well worth a look, download it and you'll see why my interest has been piqued.

Why would a counter Capitalist coalition/movement be involved with an advisor to Governments, Police and Free Trade advocates?
Dr Casey is the very definition of a Globalist public servant, there's simply no other way to characterise him and his "Humanitarian" activities, work on NGO's and Refugee advocacy seem at odds with his support for Globalist Capitalism.
To put it in a more understandable way Dr Casey seems to be on the public policy end of the globalist capitalism, smoothing the way and re calibrating NGO's, activist groups and other notionally Liberal concerns into either controlled opposition to or controlled advocacy for Globalist Capitalism.

Lexi I think you have won an award.
Individual naming YOU as biased or what ever is outstanding ROFL!
And his getting MIXED up Federal or Victorian state governments duty, to clean it up is not unexpected.
Pelicans idea was mine but while inferred it did not say it.
J O M .
Your comment has been said here many times.
Such will use these things.
But too, as it is, like it or not on behalf of 99% of us so be it.

Stg does not understand the gravity of the situation.The Bank of America is now broke and they want to counterfeit the people's money again to bail out their mates.They have asset stripped the B of A with $ trillions of worthless derivatives.This is the 3rd largest financial institution on the planet.

The people protesting are fighting for your rights too.The rest of your super along with your freedoms may soon disappear if you do not awaken.

Don't tell me what I do or don't know thanks Arjay.

I have no issue with the point of any protest. If ANYONE feels like they need to stand and highlight issues important to them, then more power to them. I support their right to do that fully.

What I don't like, is the pseudo-passive civil disobedience being used to attack the police for no purpose other than to make them look bad. Have your protest, state your case, and good luck for a positive change - whatever the hell THAT might be; no one will say - but DON'T instigate a conflict for the cameras.

They were asked to leave. They resisted. They get moved.

Dear Individual,

We've already covered this ground many times.
As has the news media.
All you have to do is re-read any of my posts.
Gillard's difficulties and there are many as I've
stated in the past have overshadowed her
government's accommplishments. You can Google
them yourself. The number of bills and legislation
passed is impressive. And as you well
know Mr Abbott's Opposition has been one driven
by ruthless ambition and using every weapon at his
disposal to wreck the government's attempts to
achieve anything at all. Now this is on the public
record whether you like it or not. And your
calling me "prejudiced, " is not correct. I am
not pre-judging Abbott. My perceptions are based
entirely on his actions and what comes out of his
mouth.

im watching the watchers
doing their work

if you got no right to assemble to complain
were less free than those in egypt..etc
who are prepared to die..just to be heard

if in this cuntry we cant protest
then where?

ps
they were removed because the queen[1%]
wanted a mindless tram ride..through the 'camp'

if you reject the right to protest
go live in north korea..or china
cause thatys where this type of policing leads

the coppers..get the mindset
its us against you[who ever you are]

us v them
just remember
the police will use what works..next time on you

fitst they hated druggies
then the m,oterists..then the hippies

in time it will be you
one day you will be in the wrong place at the wrong time

then its you
[and no one will be left to speak up for you]

Dear Belly,

By the end of 2012 the Opposition might be finding
it harder to explain how they will dismantle the
polluter's tax scheme and take away the tax cuts that
came with it. It won't be easy persuading the electorate
that they can raise taxes again because prices will
assuredly come down.

In time a lot of Australians will learn for the first
time that the polluter's tax does not apply directly
to them. By the end of 2012 the public will have
experienced the policy for themsleves, free of anything
the pollies might say. The public will be in a
better position to judge whether the tax on polluter's was
worthwhile and whether the compensation was adequate.

On both sides of politics we won't know about this debate
until the policy is in action, implemented and working
for nearly 6 months.

As for Individual accusing me of being "Prejudiced?"
I think that many people instead of analyzing an issue
based on the information written in an article or post
tend to read the bits they want to agree with and discard
any other evidence that confounds their pre-conceived
ideas. That's par for the course with emotive subjects
like - politics.

Now, back to the topic. My apologies StG - I don't
want to de-rail your thread.

I do feel that the protestors will probably do better
next time around - hopefully having learned a great
deal from this experience. As hopefully will the police
in the handling of the situation.

Dear Johan (OUG),

They had over six days to "protest."
Which by any one's terms was a fair run.
However, when you set up "tent-city,"
and a "squatter's camp," in the middle of
the city's public square for six days. When
you break Council ordinances by continue to
cook and make a mess in general - as well as
sit in the middle of an inter-section and refuse to
move - then of course
someone is going to pull you up on it.
Freedom to protest is one thing but to willfully
do damage to public property - stink up the place,
hinder traffic, et cetera - is something else.
A graffitti artist may feel that they're entitled
to "freedom of expression," when they decide to
de-face somebody's property. And you may not object
if they did it to your brand new fence. I though
would be mad as hell and demand they clean it up
(if I could catch them, that is).

Arjay,
I know you want this to be real but it isn't.

Another "blast from the past" has popped up as a spokesman for Occupy Sydney,Tim Davis-Frank.
Last I heard Tim was a High School economics teacher (the mind boggles as to what brand of economics he might be teaching), he's also well known for his troubles with the law in relation to violent disorder at the Melbourne G20 rallies.
Now come on folks, this is just getting a bit silly, this character is nothing but a provocateur who goes around hijacking Anti Globalist protests with violence and disorder. There are some pretty wild allegations about the so called "Arterial Bloc", of which Tim was a part, the links to the Legal Centres,Trades Hall and the Don Chipp Foundation, all these State actors.
The facilitators of these protests are as we say "suss", they're Rent A Crowd provocateurs,I'd like to know more about who's renting the crowd.

I'm a bit puzzled by the suggestion that any of the 'Occupy [insert place name here]' events have been 'successful'. What have they achieved? What will actually change as a result of these protests? What did the protesters actually HOPE to achieve? What solutions have they put forward, and who has listened to them?

As for the removal of the protesters in Melbourne, I guess the inner right-winger comes out in me when I see the footage. What would you have our police do? Stand there with megaphones and tell the protesters that they're 'being very naughty'? If the protesters were unaware that they were breaking the law by continuing to squat after the service of an eviction notice, then they're either very stupid or don't speak English. If they were unaware that they were breaking the law by refusing to follow police directions, then they're either very stupid or just plain ignorant.

I've lived in an oppressive regime and, elsewhere, seen police brutality. If we're seriously calling that either oppression or brutality, then God help us when we actually have something to whinge about.

*What have they achieved?*

Well Oto, they got to play their bongo drums and play their guitars.
More like a festival really. Time to catch up with friends etc and
perhaps more entertaining then what was on telly.

CNN did a bit of a story on the New York one and interviewed quite
a few of the people there. Everyone had their own little pet hate
for being there, some of them quite personal things in their
lives. I guess it was a lovely day or two out, getting their
frustrations off their chest.

You'll probably see a similar crowd with similar faces at the next
demo. Some people just love to go to them, its a social event.

Lexi unfortunately we live in a world that sees news and comment in control.
Not always balanced,and not always true.
News and comment,even ours here are free.
Even disk Jockeys and for that matter news readers and Celebrity's, make comments on every thing.
And far too many judge the issue ,on those comments.
Here, lets look, detractors tell us the crowds are all loony Lefty's or drop outs.
And the case they make, that 99% pay for the crimes of 1% are unfounded.
That forgets, or conveniently over looks, normal tax payers bailed out banks across the world.
It ignores profits are privatized, debt Socialized.
We if we research, could post the history of failed/fraudulent/criminal / investment losses.
Some one should do it, let the list be the only sing with a question mark under it.
Right now, we should consider every idea put forward in the last twenty years,to benefit humanity.
Any look will show we let our selves be used.
We see not the issue but what side of politics we stand on.
DIVIDE AND ? how does it go? Conquer.
Media/comment/self interest/ is in control not rational thought.
Far worse! horrifyingly! we are about to be told Europes trouble are over.
I think if that ever happened, if it was fixed, it would be, every cent, at cost to the 99%
With help, from others in that group blind to reality ever willing to kick those thinking outside the small box they live in.

Belly,
Every idea? I wonder...
Open or porous borders are of no benefit to humanity as a whole, a true anti globalist or Alter Mondialist cannot support massive Third World population movement and relocation of labour let alone the cherry picking of the best and brightest technicians, doctors and scientists from the undeveloped countries.
Regionalism, protectionism and ethnocentrism are in the interests of all humankind, you've correctly identified the "divide and conquer" tactics of the elite and the atomisation of society, are you saying you'd support a reactionary response to those very real concerns?
We'd need to end transnational migration, close all borders to the West, end free trade, disband the U.N, World Bank, IMF and all other structures of the Empire, make usury a crime and demand loyalty to the revolution from our friends and neighbours....well I'm up for it, are you?

Dear Otokonoko,

It is funny how our 'inner right winger' pops out ever once in a while. Mine certainly has on this occasion but perhaps it is of a different ilk to yours.

And yes I too have lived in brutal regimes, one where the local mayor personally shot three 'lawbreakers' and left their bodies in the town square for a few days as a warning, so I do know what brutal is and the police actions on the Friday qualify in my book.

When I see non-violent, passively resisting protesters having choke holds applied, being capsicum sprayed, being rammed into by police packs, being dragged by the heels over concrete edges, being punched in the face, being trod on by horses, and being threatened with attack dogs, all in the heart of my capital and all because a puffed up little man we called a mayor decides he personally had had enough of the “selfish” “duplicitous” “self-indulgent rabble”.

To have these people now contemplating relocating to the Treasury Gardens because they want to avoid a repeat of the police violence is damning. Why should peaceful protesters in my country be fearing police violence? Indeed why should anyone who is not being aggressive or threatening others?

Cont'

Cont'

In a world where the police had due regard for their image and the well being of the citizens they are sworn to protect we would have seen each protester held upright as they were being removed, if that were not possible then four officers, one on each limb, would have been appropriate. Decent training and direction should have negated the need for choke holds, head locks and the hair pulling. The change in the mood of the spectators was evident in the footage I saw. Cries of 'shame' and 'scum' were taken up by many onlookers and understandably so.

It is interesting to compare the media treatment of the Occupy Melbourne protests with those of the Convoy of No-Confidence which whose organisers had threatened to shut down Canberra and blockade Parliament House. Even more interesting were Bob Brown's comments,

"It hasn't blockaded anything," he said. "But it has got the moaners' brigade in town to moan about everything in general and nothing in particular.".

Seems to reflect the sentiments of many on this thread. Isn't this just being dismissive and disrespectful of other people's views when they are different or confusing to you?.

Dear Lexi,

Should protests be disruptive? I found this piece by Naomi Wolf instructive.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/occupy-wall-street-bloomberg-free-speech-right-to-disruption-_b_1026535.html

As usual the hoary old wives tales about demonstrations and there participants abound on the post, all perpetrated by people whom have never actually attended one themselves.Not even in their youth.

These armchair experts are always full of rhetoric but nothing they can say belies the fact the principals of democracy and freedom of speech are far more important to us all than the privileges that the detractors of free expression(the powerful)decry.

These would be the very same people if they were farmers for example ,would be currently telling their employee's that the carbon tax will mean the end of there jobs. This of course is absolute crap but lets not let reality or the truth get in they way of the powerful and their goal to retain power.Gas frakking and global warming are the biggest threat to farming jobs.

World banks and other major businesses have always got their hand out for taxpayers money and the moment some taxpayers decide they wish to express discontent, oh their hippies/professional protesters etc.

Out come the very small number of very loud redneck political mis-informants touting a form of discrimination not dis-similiar to racism as their case, and are even prepared to ignore police brutality and abuse of political power in order that their crap be heard.

I doubt whether any of these people have actually ever done anything involving public spirit and risk to themselves in their entire lives but are prepared to s##tcan anyone who does.

I think your gutless and faceless and happy to have baton wielding police do your talking for you if the truth be known . Stomach turning self interested people whom think their viewpoint more important than freedom itself. And it's a shame that my brave prolitarian father fought to protect your interests.

Dear Belly and csteele,

I don't think that anybody on this thread would
disagree with people's right to pretest peacefully.
However, with one's rights come responsibilities.
You don't get a blank cheque to do whatever you want.
Just like the "right" of freedom of speech. People
who enjoy these rights have a duty to respect other
people's rights. A person's right is therefore limited
by the rights of others. Most democratic countries have
certain restrictions. They do put various limitations on
what people may say and do.

In the case of the "Occupy Melbourne," protest - things
did get out of hand only after six days of peaceful
protest and this was done by a small minority. Admittedly
perhaps the police did over-react - this is now under
investigation. And as I stated in my previous posts -
hopefully with better training and foresight - the next
time the situation will be better handled by both the
police and the protestors.

Dear thinker 2,

I'm sure that you didn't mean your post to
come across as an insulting or mean message.
Perhaps it's only an absent-minded or poor
choice of phrasing and is not meant the way
that some people may perceive it. Anyway -
not all of us are just "arm-chair," analysists.
Many, I'm sure have taken part in protests over
the years in our salad days (when we were fresh
and green) and many will continue to do so -
depending on who wins the next election.
Lets try to respectfully disagree in order to
produce a more productive conversation.

we are all..neatly diveded into our set adgenda's
those to whom govt cant do wrong defending govt excess

and those who have felt the choke hold on their throat..and the writ lick of your righthand..welded to your left shoulder..[by tyhree armed thugs]..on the other

we hear the same old rants
those dirty people peeing on streets
daring to give out free food..[so where are the govt portaloo's..and a soup kitchen..or a place to wash yourself or your clothes..or store your stuff..now dumped at the local tip]

where indeed these TRAINED negotiaters
where the lawyers..putting their sinsere complaint into word

where is the love?
HOW IS WHAT OUR COPPERS DO..different
to what dicktraiers do..in their proffitable regeme

[ie anything]..to shut up discent..
anything to police the protester..
daring to voice the problem..{PEACEFULLY]..

and there are our [lol]..protecters
there to bailout their mates..

there to break up the peace
[peacefull discent]

there to keep the police
from watching their pals..there to shut you the heck up
lest others join in the peacefull gathering..of innocents
trying to ask whats going on..

why are things
not great for all of us
where is there them/verses/us
why do they get the bailout and we get the handcuffs

because too many dont dare think
guess we blame that..on the coolaid[spin/vieuws..in lue of news]....they..were forced to drink

please stop and think
they are stealing your wealth too...!

ever notice how us smokers got our tax in days
and the mining tax will never come

funny that
but you couldnt care less
so i wish..i could learn to be ignorant like you

im ok
stuff you

thats all we need do

Once upon a time. I could drive from Sydney to Brisbane, or Melbourne, sitting on 100 miles per hour between corners quite legally. That was my right.

That right has been taken away from me, basically by the bitching of incompetents who could not safely do what I could do.

Strangely I have not blocked the roads, demanding my rights back, because I accept in a large society, some rights must be restricted, for the good of all.

However I am not prepared to have some ratbag block the roads I've paid for with my taxes to complain about something they don't like. If they have their knickers in a knot perhaps we could run a school to teach them how to untie knots.

What ever, I want them removed from my roads immediately, & not in some days time. Most of these people are a waste of space, & have no right to interfere with the legitimate actions of anyone.

If they want to change the system perhaps they should first join it, then do their work from inside. It has worked with the ABC, so why not the finance sector.

Yes I know, the ABC will hire any usless dropkick, & banks are a bit more selective. Perhaps they would have to shower more often, but that may just do them some good anyway.

Dear Lexi,

Every year in Melbourne we have three weeks of being shut out of large areas of public space in the heart of Melbourne and for the last week this is accompanied by almost indescribable noise, litter and loutish hooning behaviour. All done in the name of supporting businesses. I am of course referring to the Grand Prix.

Compare that disruption to the Occupy Melbourne sit in. By its very nature the word 'occupy' means a stationary occupation of an inner city location. That is part of what defines the movement. There is no comparison between the area of the City Square compromised and that of Albert Park, nor the sound of bongo drums compared to F1 engines, nor the aggregate disruption caused to residents and users of the park, nor the cost to the taxpayers of this state.

Business do very well out of this government, I have even enjoyed some of that generosity myself, so putting up with a little bit of protest action should not have been a big ask.

Who is the mayor speaking for when he says a few hundred people shouldn't be allowed to trample on the 'rights' of all the other Melbournians? I would love to see the number of those living in Melbourne proper who support the Grand Prix compared to those who support action on corporate greed and excess.

Why can't a place like Melbourne support a continuing protest? It could add colour and vibrancy, and showcase a tolerant community. Why not have asked that the site be vacated one day a week for a good council tidy up for the duration of the protest? Set some basic housekeeping rules, be proactive and accommodating to what is a world wide movement.

All I see now is the footage of what happened on Friday being mashed up into Youtube videos for other Occupy efforts, heightening the sense of outrage.

Well done Doyle you bloody idiot!

*Why can't a place like Melbourne support a continuing protest? It could add colour and vibrancy, and showcase a tolerant community.*

Why not eh, Csteele? So I could bring the cow and the goat, that
would blend in with the tents and all the rest. Ah some chooks too
of course. All bankrolled by the taxpayer. Just rename the
place Circusville, that will bring in the tourists...

They need you for mayor, Cteele :)

I see, others may not, a bigotry here.
Not unlike the unknowing rubbish heaved every hour at a mate.
He Vet from Vietnam, has cancer.
His Doc says never go out with out a mask.
Dead heads, unknowingly slander him often.
We see the same here, some of these protesters will be, like my mate, FIRM CONSERVATIVES.
JOM no idea, not a little bit, how you put that thought down as mine!
Extraordinary PERSON YOU ARE.
My bigortys are hand made by me, not related to your thoughts about me.
Lexi, pal, know, every level headed supporter of this protest is against the violence.
Know too, at worse, a few trouble makers did that.
But know consider, in the Egyptian streets paid trouble makers, some Criminals did much of the bashing.
Yes too, rubbish was picked up there not thrown about to declare to those who had to clean up- the do not matter.
And SAD BUT TRUE some police bash for fun innocents or not.
Thin blue line is Worth its pay, but some are thugs and far worse than criminal.

Dear csteele,

Well when you put things that way - I have
to agree you've certainly got a valid point.
Nothing can compare to the noise, mess, and cost
to taxpayers of the Grand Prix. The "Occupy
Melbourne," protest pales in comparison.
I'll have to go back and re-think this entire
issue.

The only other thing that does bother
me somewhat though - I've heard that many of
these "peaceful" protestors were professional
agitators with their own agendas. How true is
that?

Dear Belly,

I'll shut up now and go sit in the naughty corner.

#occupymelbourne failed. The focus is on negative press and painting the police as some sort of fascist entity which, quite obviously, is a load of ... uh ... well, rubbish, and off topic. It's been rail roaded by anti-government agitators.

Hopefully they get back on track.

I have attended two protests in my life, neither matching the experience of the latest 'Occupy' protests, and I am already a full supporter of the principles behind the campaign. I am not sure some of the protestors share the views of all of the Wall Street occupiers given one of them said they would not move until the end of capitalism.

Among the supporters of this campaign are also people who wish to see the end of the excesses of capitalism via better regulatory frameworks rather than to bring down a whole system. Simply put - a better way to offset greed.

Protestors are not always a homogenous group going in with the same ideas and aims. But that is obvious.

It would seem that a few police have overacted in some cases including the use of pepper spray. However, the reverse also applies. To be be fair it should be acknowledged police have a difficult job both in having to follow orders they might not agree (eg. Patricks dockside protests) as well as dealing with overt aggression and provocation by some protests including physical attack.

A police officer relative once received an injury due to the aggression of protestors including having faeces and urine thrown at the police line. There was no provocation for such an action and it is naive to think some protestors do not go out of their way to ensure they make the news.

The freedom to assembly should be a given in a free society but within the limits of acceptable behaviour. There were always other options and venues to demonstrate without seeking to cause huge disruptions or violence.

This does not excuse excessive force by police - there is never an excuse for police to stretch the limits of their powers. It is also wiser IMO to keep an open mind no matter where one stands on the issues being demonstrated.

Ghandi had a better approach. It was more effective and the objectives were not lost in the violence.

My apologies for my tone Lexi. I am expressing my frustration.

Forever, you here this rampant description of people whom basically, are people who feel strongly enough about something, to go out and make their presence felt en masse.

Just recently we have witnessed people like Tony Abbott and Alan Jones advocating revolution through their convoy and failing to inspire the numbers. This protesting thing is all about the numbers. Had they achieved the numbers they were promoting of people baying for the Govt's blood, we may have had that election. Instead we got "ditch the witch" etc and false claims of impedance, particularly from Alan Jones.

These same protagonists (and those supporting them) are now present as critics of people doing the same thing as they themselves were recently, achieving about the same numbers and relevance as the convoy people. Without the media campaign I might add.

This post hasn't been about the subject "The Right to Assembly" so far, but I think it is a fundamental pillar of democracy. Without it, the so called Arab Spring would not be in progress as we speak and presumably tyranny be prolonged.

Enough right wing propaganda, as I have said in an earlier post what if 150,000 people turn up ?, if not for this but some other issue, what will Victoria Police do then, call out the tanks ?.

And what will "the right to assembly" mean at that point, too our democracy ?

Apologies, the last line of my last post should have read:

"And if they did, what would "the right to assembly" mean at that point, too our democracy ?."

Interestingly, the London protesters who have set up their 50 tents,
have released their "Global anti capitalist manifesto".

So much for Belly's theories.

The thing is, if you allow one group of people to set up tents
and camp on public land, then it has to be good enough for anyone
to do the same. Why should this group receive special treatment?

Thinker 2,
Rednecks? Racists? You're directing your comments at White posters only and you do that because you're anti White, anti Racism is a code word for anti White.
I'm not happy for Police to do anything at all,I teach my kids the five words, "I have nothing to say", to be used in the event of their being harassed by the Police.because, shock horror! I'm a REAL Anarchist, as opposed to a poser or lifestyle scenster like the "occupy" protestors.
As Joe Toscano says, "Anarchism is about Liberty and it's about cash", I'd add that Liberation is something you DO rather than something you talk about or take to the streets to preach about.
Secession is the start of Liberation and it starts with secession of the mind, choosing to step away from the state and make your own way in life.
Real Anarchists and Anti Globalists are out doing what they do to make a living, building alternative networks of commerce, collectivising and raising their families.
Idiots, stooges, shills and slackers attend protest rallies a few times a year then leech off the state or rely on support from it's public service (of which one arm is the Police)...actually the last Rally I did attend, in 2010 featured the spectacle of so called "Syndicalists" expressing solidarity with the "Workers of the Victoria Police".

Thinker 2,
Could you refrain using the term "right winger"? There is no right wing in this country,I know what you're trying to get at but there are no such organisations at work in the community.
Both Leftists and "respectable" conservatives like Abbott, Katter, Nile and Jones all agree, Globalist capitalism sitting atop Second generation Communism (Scientific Racism as distinct from Scientific materialsm)is the final, be all and end all of human endeavour.
I oppose them all with equal vehemence because they are TRAITORS, the immigration and Racial issues hurt them because they expose their genocidal agenda in White countries, that may even be their Achilles heel.
So are you also prepared to use the full spectrum of issues and to take them down by any means necessary under the rules or under the law, without breaking those rules or breaking the laws?
Illegalism and violence doesn't work, we know that the empire can withstand everything up to a WW2 scale event and emerge even stronger so why are people still using those tactics?

Dear Lexi,

Thank you for taking the time to consider my point. Perhaps the thought that many of the F1 teams spend between $400 and $500 million dollars to take their show on the road each year might legitimise the attitude of some of the protesters about extravagance. Yet we pay for the privilege of bringing Bernie and his mates to Melbourne.

As to some of the protesters being professional agitators you are more than likely right, what self-respecting one would stay away. But should that de-legitimise the movement? A lazy analogy on my part might be to state that volunteer fire fighters are vastly over represented in the ranks of convicted arsonists, doesn't mean we should disband them.

Dear Pelican,

I too support the goals of the movement, as nebulous as they might seem to some, and while the problems in America with their blatantly bought politicians seem to be deserving of more vigorous action we are not without our own issues.

I love my capitalism, I love being a part of it, I love the excitement of starting a new business, I love the independence of being in charge of my own destiny, of succeeding or failing by my own hand. But I understand it needs to be kept on a leash, its excesses tempered, both at the top and the bottom.

So what would I have to protest about in this country? Well I hate the fact that the big four banks will gouge over $20 billion dollars purely in profits out of this country this year. That is $1000 for every man woman and child. I have never run a business with an overdraft but it was criminal to see how much I had to pay monthly to the bank when in the retail industry, all gouged out of our pockets.

I am angry that they are able to make profit margins over 30%. Who else manages that? I am pissed off that during the GFC they grew stronger while the smaller banks faltered yet what do they create? They are a service industry, that is it, nothing more, skimming profits at extraordinary rates from the rest of us.

I hate seeing the treasurer of my country having to stamp his feet like an impotent school boy when they raise the interest rates over the odds yet not have the balls to do anything about it. I loathe the fact they have managed to get their grubby paws on our monopolies, I grind my teeth every time I get a phone call from an overseas call centre about “my Telstra account”, or have to go to our privatised airport. I feel deep frustration at seeing the inroads private hospitals are making into our health system or private schools into our education system.

I want a return to governments committed to the best public health and education systems in the world. These were the pride of our nation. I want decent care for our elderly, and our returned service men and women. I want the stock of public housing replenished and I want our young graduates free from crippling debts that affect their chance of gaining a loan for their first house.

How to pay for it? German banks make ¼ the profit of ours. There is $15 billion right there.

I want negative gearing on housing abolished and the $5 billion a year it costs us in foregone taxes returned to the coffers. The banks will hate that too but so what.

I could go on but to to put it simply I want a curb put on the big banks, something that is included in the agenda of all who support this movement and only those with their heads in the sand or snouts in the trough would be against.

Hell Yabby if the Mayor's job is still going I will take it.

*and only those with their heads in the sand or snouts in the trough would be against.*

Not so, Csteele, but only some understand the figures, which does
not seem to include you.

The reason why profits are high, is because its such a huge industry,
with around 2 trillion $ on the books. They earn a net 1% of that
after costs, so if they paid an extra 1% on deposits or charged
consumers 1% less, they would earn nothing. I doubt if investors
such as super funds, who own the majority of bank shares on behalf
of Australian workers (which is nearly all Australians), would
provide their capital for nothing.

So where do most of those profits land up? In super funds, for
the benefit of nearly all Australians and their retirement.
I don't think that is such a bad thing.

As to you and lord mayor, put your hand up and see if people
vote for you

Occupy Melbourne, Sydney ... movements may be real chance for democracy
http://candobetter.net/node/2610

Read the comments section.

I am just thankful that the 95% plus people in the world who are poorer than these protestors are not protesting against the protesters. We would all be in trouble. It does not seem fair that the poor have to spend all day on the rice fields to feed their family while many of the uni students, socialist, dole bludgers, comos take a break because they envy those who have more than them no matter how hard they worked. I noticed a few Government payed Professors giving their nod of approval. The ABC seem to be able to source them very quickly. What a surprise?

runner,

"Again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"

(Matthew, however, neglected to exclude uni students, socialists, dole bludgers and comos : )

I'm going to put this out there as an example of a peaceful protest that shows courage, conviction and dedication to the cause. Add dignity to that list.

https://webspace.utexas.edu/cmr485/www/mothers/history.html

Of course, even that movement had (has) its malcontents and malefactors, but at its core was a group of women who were courageous enough to stand up for their beliefs, and to continue their weekly marches and political lobbying for three decades.

Where will the 'Occupy ___' people be in thirty years' time, when their demands still haven't been met? It's one thing to applaud the 'courage' and 'conviction' of a small group of people who are willing to camp out for a week in a safe, comfortable public square during the warmer months of the year. I will join in the applause if they are still there in six months' time.

Even if I don't agree with what they're doing, if they have the dedication to keep doing it, then good on them for following through with their convictions.

Dear Yabby,

Oh my good fellow.

Tell you what, go brush up on the difference between assets and equity then if you still wish to stand by what you have just posted I will be happy to indulge.

Whew!

Dear runner,

Good to hear from you. Tell me who is your favourite for the Republican Primaries (all good Christian folk as always) and I will tell you which corporation owns him/her. Could be fun.

Dear Otokonoko,

Thank you for the link. Truly inspiring. Here is another exhibiting “The Profound Power of the Mothers “
http://electronicintifada.net/content/gaza-families-demand-right-visit-prisoners/10207#.TqVks5tFuso

Just an aside, I'm not sure you can call the City Square a safe place for protestors.

Csteele, I know the difference very well. The fact is that in
terms of return on equity, banks are midstream in terms of
profitability. With that kind of loan book, they need Tier 1
assets of around 200 billion$, which is money risked by shareholders.

Take note of shareholders of American and British banks, many of
whose shareholders have lost their shirts.

The point about return on assets is that the net margin is indeed
very small. Its simply the huge amount of loans, which makes the
profits sound large. I remind you that Australians lose a similar
amount throwing their money down the pokie slots and similar
gambling, are you outraged about that?

The cost of money is much higher in Australia then in Germany,
for the Germans are savers by nature. We seemingly prefer to
gamble, rather then save. If Australians saved more, money here
would be cheaper to borrow. Given that our banks have to borrow
a substantial % of thein loanbook from overseas markets, that
increases the cost of finance in Australia. Of course they are
not just going to follow RBA changes in the loan rate. They need
to factor in the overseas cost of money in their calculations.
Yet you ignore all that in your so called outrage. Sounds to me
like you simply don't understand banking in Australia.

This mornings papers headline this story.
A greens member/worker is named as helping the rioters.
A long list of true lost left, far far left, and very truly lost, is shown.
And hint, not the truth, that some DO go to fight bash police and make trouble.
Always has been like that.
I again and again warn, it is these INFECTIONS that harm the cause, turn some who want to support to ENEMY'S.
If only ten remain,get rid of the unwashed comrades! such protests always die at the actions of these groups, they turn folk away.
I would no more stand shoulder to shoulder with them than swim in a sewage tank.
Media,we see it everyday, has its own slant, own self interest.
Even clean protest will be defamed.
The contaminants with in this movement,some by intention, will kill it.

So back to topic,
We all understand that activism out in the community, talking to people, distributing information and even marching are peaceful (and effective) means of dissent.
An "occupation" is an act of violence because it's an excercise in the use of force.
Violence doesn't work against the regime, it reinforces it.
A consistent message is the only thing that changes people's minds.

belly/quote..""some DO go..to fight bash police..and make trouble.
Always has been like that.""

mate many have ben found to be agent provocateurs
[ie sent in to make the protest LOOK bad

""it is these INFECTIONS..that harm the cause,
turn some..who want to support..into ENEMY'S.""

so who gains..in a divided camp?
seems there are paid to pro-test...[those wearing black or army clothing]...and others there planted by those protested against..to make the people look like a rabble...then those sincerly there

in short it takes all types
[im reminded of the words wrote in a book[speak so gently]
that explains how the commies took over the 'christian solcialist party'..[it might be on google books search]..try to read pages 98/99

then..when..""If only ten remain,
get rid of the unwashed comrades!""

dah das is goot
thats what was done to lab-our party..and the greens

""such protests"'
such parties..[read demo-moc-rats]
""always die..at the actions of these groups,..they turn folk away.""

yep its allways been like that mate
[if you got numbers..its easier to take over
an old party..than create a new one]

""Media,we see it everyday, has its own slant, own self interest."'

media was bought out..and has sold out
mate brissie used to have 5 daily news papers
now we got imports and the sun pap

""Even clean protest will be defamed."'

yep
thats why you class the unwashed..as traiters
and refuse to join with 'the rabble'

""The contaminants within this movement,
some by intention, will kill it."'

wonder what their motivatiion is?
[in this case many went to wa for chogm]

how about them new laws..[that issued exclusion orders..to 50 'activists'...and things like guilt by assosiation re bikers]

protest is made to fail
dare to voice complaint..go directly to jail

[first they take out 'the head/spokesperson]
so we need no leaders..yet many spokes people

why we are forbidden the right to assemble[in peace]
cause economics needs war

The new government..of Iraq has made it clear
they will not grant immunity..for war crimes to American/troops

and any remaining..in Iraq
after Dec 31..(other than embassy guards) are subject to arrest.

In denying immunity,..the new Iraqi government..has shown the US to the door..and handed them their hat, er,..their helmet.

In other words,..the United States
just lost the Iraq war.

1...We never got Saddam's nuclear weapons,
because..they did not have any.

2...We did not revenge 9-11
because Iraq had nothing to do with it.

3. We did not punish Iraq for supporting Al Qaeda
because..Saddam and Al Qaeda were enemies.

4. We did not get all that much oil
because the new government of Iraq..is made up of people the US tortured,..or of people..who know people the US tortured,..and the oil contracts were handed out to everyone else.

and they just told the US to get out,
or face war crimes charges!

There is no real tangible way to claim that this war was a win for the United States. Billions spent, hundreds of thousands dead.

The only real winners are the bankers
to whom both sides are now deeply in debt.

now for ww3

how about gadfly[gladduffy]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuqZfaj34nc&feature=relmfu

THE MARK OF THE SLAVE
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/themarkoftheaslave.php

On January 1, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, to make all men free.

On December 23rd, 1913, President Woodrow Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act, to make all men slaves again.

When the dog dies, the fleas merely jump to a new dog."
http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/10/federal-reserve-bank-is-moral-hazard-to.html

http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/the-real-reason-for-the-uprisings/
http://www.zcommunications.org/a-movement-too-big-to-fail-by-chris-hedges

police realise they too are the 99
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/10/veterans-and-police-officers-support-occupy-wall-street-protesters.html

http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/10/paul-were-witnessing-failure-of_24.html
http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=23487
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-24/swiss-banks-said-ready-to-pay-billions-disclose-customer-names.html

http://www.cnbc.com/id/45013499

the odious debt bet

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=7494
http://dailybail.com/home/paul-volcker-its-time-to-regulate-money-market-funds-and-get.html

http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/2649739:BlogPost:693228
http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/10/real-reason-why-gadaffi-was-killed-why.html
http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/10/five-things-you-may-not-know-about.html
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/10/did-john-bolton-just-admit-all-these.html

http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/10/what-would-happen-if-goldman-sachs.html
http://dailybail.com/home/occupy-ireland-make-bank-bondholders-pay-if-they-didnt-share.html
http://usmfreepress.org/2011/10/chemical-bomb-thrown-at-occupy-maine-camp-early-sunday-morning/
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=16436

fed audit
http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3
the U.S. provided a whopping $16 trillion in secret loans to bail out American and foreign banks and businesses during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/10/european-union-chiefs-are-drawing-up.html
http://publicbanking.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/state-bank-trifold9-20110807.pdf

prediction?
http://presscore.ca/2011/?p=4808

I want what Csteele want's and I'm willing to bet that that is what most Australian's want,their country back. I want and end to newspapers with curtseys and kisses on their front page.

A minority Gov't achieved a massive and important progressive reform in the face of propaganda, massive funded misinformation campaigns, anything and everything inc sabotage,and News Ltd run kisses and curtseys on their front pages because it is not their intention not to report the problem they are the problem.

Would you not attempt Jay of Melbourne to infer that I'm advocating illegality or violence as a political method because that is typical of the sort of thing that I've had enough of. That is on the first page in the redneck "how to discredit your opponents handbook". Same as calling me a hippie or pro protester or unemployed with nothing better to do.

As Lexi has stated correctly so many times on this site, this Gov't is doing a good job overall and in the International community this fact is recognized and even awarded.

Murdoch has been able to take advantage of changes made by Howard in cross media ownership law to monopolize the flow of information. In his mind he knows that Australians like American's will believe anything their told if you keep repeating it often enough. And his buddies in business are far more important than freedom or environmental sustainability or the future beyond his lifetime.

I am sick of people like Abbott mouthing purpose built lies, misinformation and deliberate distortions in fact and truth without a minutes scrutiny,all for political motives alone and have you lot repeat this tripe over and over again.

Enough's enough Folks that's it and Lexi I'm afraid your on your own, but I admire your literacy and patience, in the face of views that would have embarrassed thinking people 20 yrs ago,from the shadow Ministers of the world, you keep trying to point out the facts without acknowledgement or even a counter argument.

Well written t2. Over the months the abbott supporters have changed horses midstream just like abbott. They know right from wrong but can not bring them-self to recognizing, just a little bit of injustice, on their behalf. They are in agony waiting for an election, which must seem like light-years away. International recognition is right on., then abbott slanders China. There's more appropriate people than abbott to handle situations, like that and get away with it. The abbott supporters , that is what they are, because you don't hear from any one else in the opposition, will demise along with mr abbott.

Thanks for your kind remark 579. Your right, the rules of engagement don't seem to apply to them (the Abbott opposition).

And thanks for resurrecting my faith a little in online discussion.

If we stop for a minute and identify the people in black hats (choosing badly an old fashioned metaphor), I think we would be best serving ourselves at this point in human history.

In todays news, we were informed that Wikileaks has been financially knobbled by the banks and can't get their donations, resulting in a suspension of the service. Comments were made by media people like "how would Julian Assange feel if his emails were made public ?".

I would like to ask the employer of that same pap/pop journalist; "How would the family of Milly Dowler in the UK feel about having their phones and emails hacked and their privacy illegally penetrated and their suffering exploited for financial gain ?.

It's clear to me whom it is wearing the black hat in that situation and protesters and the right to assembly are hardly the villians' or the advocates of violence in this case. Nor is whistle blowing a bad thing.

In fact the actions of Vic Police (their viewpoint perhaps tempered with a big payrise to boot) stormed the protesters in, (from what I witnessed on TV), enthusiastic acts of needless and wanton violence.

If it was one of our children subjected too that by the Police, I'm sure I would be upset. I am also concerned about the urging for such activity by political figures such as Doyle and the Ballieau Gov't/minister and mirrors the behaviour of the WA Gov't in shooting white pointers with shotguns as a solution to shark attacks. What are they thinking ?.

Sabotaging the clean energy future with new coal driven developments seems to be the main focus of all 3 newly elected Liberal State Govt's. Quelling dissent so publicly and stridently, seems to be a new development in the puzzle. To me it seems like it's full steam backwards, if they/Abbott succeed nationally. I hope they don't succeed 579.

csteele
"I love my capitalism, I love being a part of it, I love the excitement of starting a new business, I love the independence of being in charge of my own destiny, of succeeding or failing by my own hand. But I understand it needs to be kept on a leash, its excesses tempered, both at the top and the bottom."

That is a good way to sum it up.

Unfortunately the big end of town often decries any suggestion of collective interest until there are bail outs on offer then the become the biggest Communists of them all. :)

Believe me,Please, I am haveing trouble finding the words.
Words to describe why I think this thread is a window on the very thing doing so very much harm,to our chances of dealing with any issue.
We have, as always,taken sides.
No middle path, true look at the issues, we have taken the side of shock jocks or paid commentators.
Socialist minority's or red necks.
If not this movement, then who, how, when?
When do we get answers to global financial crisis.
To gigantic Ponzie schemes that fell, as they must,.
I too love my capitalism, show me another path that serves us better.
But on every issue,every single one confronting humanity, we fight dust storms ignoring the massive hurricane we are wandering in to.

Wait for the Messiah.
Seriously,what we should expect next is to see someone pushed forward by the Elites and anointed as the global face of the resistance.

*Unfortunately the big end of town often decries any suggestion of collective interest until there are bail outs on offer then the become the biggest Communists of them all. :)*

Pelican, at least you can be amused by your own comments, which
is a good sign :)

Who is the big end of town? Employees of large corporations? There
is no doubt in my mind, that the smart ones arn't working in Govt,
more likely in business and some of them will extract money from
well meaning Govts, some of whose officials are easily duped.

Some of the dirt of what really happened in America, is finally
emerging. Gretchen Morgenson, a well respected journalist has just
published "Reckless Engdangerment", according to the Economist.

It seems that there was a well meaning Congress, keen to see poor
people buy houses and James Johnson who ran Fannie Mae, a semi
Govt institution, more then keen to oblige. Johnson openly bragged
about his underwriting experiments (read lending to ever dodgier types)
all Govt guaranteed loans, whilst mortage lenders of various
types flogged the loans.

Politicians were thrilled to see all these poor people buy houses,
Govt employed no safety checks to the funds they were underwriting.
Voila, we landed up with a disaster.

Which raises the point that Govt clearly did not have the expertise
to even be in the mortage business. Well meaning politicians can
be easily hoodwinked by smart business employees. Best to keep
Govt out of business altogether, for one way or another, they
invariably land up peeing taxpayer dollars up against walls

Dear Yabby,

Fees and commissions delivered nearly $15 Billion to the big four last year. To take a 1% cut in that would deprive them of $150 million dollars, a figure they could we afford so when you said “if they paid an extra 1% on deposits or charged consumers 1% less, they would earn nothing” I'm assuming you are referring only to interest on deposits and loans.

“Commonwealth, Australia's largest bank by market capitalisation, recorded a ROE of 18.6 per cent, making it the second-most-profitable in the world after the giant Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce.”

While Banks may not be the highest POE corporations for a service industry that makes it money from skimming you and I they do very well. As an industry they are only second behind mining in this country.

You seem to be spouting the banker's line. This is from the association's website;

“Bank profits are large numbers – that’s because banks are large businesses and the total asset base required to earn those profits is gigantic. The total assets of our big four banks is $1,170 billion. The profit performance of our major banks is equivalent to earning $1.40 profit return on $100 in assets. If banks earn $6.40 worth of income from the $100 worth of assets, they pay out $5 in expenses before delivering the $1.40 in profit.”

Let's spell this out. If little worker bee csteele wants to buy a factory for his business at a $1 million dollars the bank says fine, “We will loan you the money, house is all paid for? Great! Lets have that as collateral”. They now have two pieces of my assets under their control. They stick me for lets say 7% interest then they go to an oversees lender to borrow the million at 3.5%, slip a credit default margin to AGI for 50 basis points and make a sweet 3% on the deal. Book asset of $1 mill, equity zero! 3% on zero outlay is pretty good in anyone's language.

Cont'

Cont'

How do they do it even when their deposits are only 5% of their loans? By holding down a AAA credit rating giving them access to cheap money. Do they do any work besides paper shuffling for this money? Not really, that's my job.

Skimmers!

Please don't nitpick the figures, they are purely approximations. But when you and the banks talk about return on assets it is a pure furphy.

Where it gets really insane is in the derivatives market. Over $1,200 trillion dollars in book value when the entire world economy is worth 5% of that. Paper shuffling monkeys putting our economies at risk with stupid little games.

Cenk explains it a little better here. http://youtu.be/N_XtXhiekQk

Then you go and use the Pokie industry's argument to justify it.”So where do most of those profits land up? In super funds, for the benefit of nearly all Australians and their retirement. I don't think that is such a bad thing.” reads just like “The gaming industry supports local sporting clubs'.

So that is why we should be allowed to exploit weak and vulnerable problem gamblers because without them we would go broke. You are asking me to support the gouging of all Australians by the Banks to edge up your Superfund returns? Why would I want to do that?

The issue of greed is so evident in the notion that the avarice of banks and Pokie venues should be protected because I might lose out if they aren't. How have we ended up with this mindset?

*Please don't nitpick the figures, they are purely approximations*

Lol Steele, that is the problem, you don't understand the figures
and they are coming clean out of your butt :)

If only deposits were only 5% of their loans. More dreaming on your
behalf.

If only banks could borrow so cheaply from overseas. There would
be no need to pay those pesky Australian depositers 6% on their money.
You forget that somebody has to carry the exchange risk and insuring
the Australian $ at markets rates costs money.

You'll find that banks worked on a spread of a little over 2%,
over all loans and deposits. Then they raise money from fees.
But it costs huge amounts to run banks. From wages to rents to
IT systems, to advertising, to all the rest. Then there are write
offs due to bad loans. It all has to be paid for. What is left
as net profit, is around 1% of what they lend out, after all costs
involved. So they would indeed land up with nothing, if they dropped
their interest rates by 1%, for costs are still there.

I actually googled return on equity of Australian companies after
your last post. Manufacturers like Matrix Composites came in at
30%, some of the miners were higher, some of the internet companies
even higher. So banks are indeed just average in terms of return
on equity, when it comes to Australian companies. Personaly I'd
have my money in a healthy bank, then in a bank on the verge of going
broke. For we see how overseas banks turned tail and abandoned Australia
during the GFC. Those silly enough to have loans with them
paid a heavy price as loans were cancelled and forced sales the
result. Time to do your homework about banking, Csteele.

Csteele is on the money Yabby, if you'll excuse my pun.

To get back on topic it now appears that the Victoria Police and Robert Doyle are in breach of something called the Victorian Charter of Human Rights. The criteria is quite specific with regard to the grounds of containment. To elaborate , the occupy protesters met none of the criteria required to consider their protest requiring of containment.

Containment and its justification has quite specific guidelines under the charter. May I provide a link from a real newspaper I might add.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/civil-rights-and-crossing-the-line-20111025-1mi0s.html

I think the politics of confrontation has been the method of the conservative side on the Australian political landscape since Howard . We moved away (backward actually ) from consensus politics, consensus industrial relations, consensus refugee and climate policy,
and now (given their first chances to govern at a State level), consensus human rights, including "the Right of Assembly" in Vic and NSW.

Calling the kettle black whilst being the pot, leaves you getting away with having no real policies of your own and still being ahead in the opinion polls. All you have do in opposition is disrupt things and act like a Gov't in exile claiming you'll rescind anything the elected Govt does. All you have to do in Govt is rely on your media pals.

If democracy itself is under threat ?, it is not from the Gov't we have, but from dancing with electing an Abbott led Gov't of confrontation and vested interest. A Gov't prepared to confront progress itself with an inward and anal gazing view of Australia worthy of the stone age. More digging holes and farming sheep, till its all gone and at the end, nothing to show, not even your own publicly owned telecommunications' system.

More infrastructure neglect , more privatisation, more taking from the poor to give to the rich, more mining profits and less revenue, more fossil fuel burning, more cows in national parks, more endangered species of shark culled randomly for populism, more forceful quelling of public dissent, more centralised media power, need I go on.

*Csteele is on the money Yabby, if you'll excuse my pun.*

You are seemingly as badly informed as Csteele, when it comes to
banking, Thinker 2. No surprises there.

It is a pity that you did not tune in to the Senate investigation
into banking, much of it was televised, about a year ago. Those
leftwing senators like Cameron were gonna give it to the greedy
bankers and one by one their CEOs appeared for interrogation.

The result was quite amusing to watch as it unfolded.
Clearly our politicians don't have much of a clue about banking
either. It was only when things were explained to them slowly
and in context, that they finally twigged, as to why things were
as they were, all for good reasons. They kept their tails between
their legs and meekly accepted that they were intellectually
challenged on this one.

Its the wha wha factor of course. People like yourself and Csteele
can freely sling mud, but no understanding is required, just pent
up emotions which you'd like to release. You've read the media
headlines but forgot to understand the devil in the details.

Perhaps it serves a good purpose. Getting things of your chest
has psychological implications, like letting you sleep a bit better.
Its cheaper then paying a shrink.

Dear Belly,

Now you are confusing their deposits with ours. The money you and I loan to the banks via our deposits is on the Bank's balance sheet as a liability not an asset. We sit along side foreign money and the derivative liabilities.

I'm talking about what they stump up to the table.

As to paying “those pesky Australian depositors 6% on their money” you have to be kidding. About 70% of our deposits with any major bank is there for three months or less. Please tell me where you are getting 6% on that kind of short term money? Most of us are instead paying for the privilege.

Csteele, I assume that you were referring to myself and not to
Belly.

Rather then deposits, I assume you actually meant the banks
or their shareholders equity. I think you'll find that runs
at a bit over 8%, but under the new Basel rules its being pushed
to 10%.

The banks average out their funding costs over all sorts of loans,
some local, some overseas. Plenty of people park their money on
fixed deposit, for anything from 3 months to 5 years. Just a couple
of years ago they were offering 8% on 5 year deposits. They would
still be paying that on those deposits. In August I was still signing up for 6 months
at 6%. The banks also have accounts to park your money for the short term,
removable and tranferable as you like. They have been paying 5%
on those.

In fact on many accounts the banks would be losing money. The bloke
who cashes in his dole transfer via the teller each fornight, still
uses their infrastructure and takes up staff time. They do it as
a public service.

there is a link in here
that states what the issue is
the why..we are talking about a right to assemble

sems the 'stock exchange is having a 'teqnical glich'

lol

the virtual economy meltdown?

they only trade in promises for share
not actual shares

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/1285/006/Banks_Have_Put_Americans_On_The_Hook_For_Trillions:_Restore_Glass-Steagall.html
http://vidrebel.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/a-fractional-reserve-gold-standard-the-next-big-fraud/

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship
with the unfruitful works of darkness,..but rather reprove them.
http://dailybail.com/home/video-fist-fight-in-italian-parliament-as-dysfunctional-gove.html

http://www.truth-out.org/occupy-wall-streets-battle-against-american-style-authoritarianism/1319570241

12/for it is a shame..to even speak of those things..done in secret..

http://theintelhub.com/2011/10/26/feds-order-you-tube-to-remove-video-for-containing-%E2%80%9Cgovernment-criticism%E2%80%9D/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500202_162-20125720/mexican-drug-suspect-u.s-gave-me-immunity/
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=16455
http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/ARCHIVE/CRIMES_OF_MENA.html
http://dailybail.com/home/disgraced-hedge-fund-manager-john-paulson-sends-bankster-shi.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM23k_LXWlc&feature=player_embedded
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/10/wall-street-banks-getting-nsa-intel-on-foreign-hackers/1?csp=34news&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+UsatodaycomNation-TopStories+%28News+-+Nation+-+Top+Stories%29

13/but all things that are reproved..are made manifest..by the light..
for what ever doth..*manifest..is of the light
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/10/hillary-clinton-knew-of-qaddafi-white.html

ie
only the real economy egsists
http://news.antiwar.com/2011/10/25/billions-lost-in-secret-federal-reserve-funding-of-iraq-war/

http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/10/european-debt-crisis-creditors-are.html
http://dailybail.com/home/behind-europes-debt-crisis-lurks-another-giant-bailout-of-wa.html
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/owss-beef-wall-street-isnt-winning-its-cheating-20111025?link=mostpopular2

bankers stealing houses
rebuked
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27282
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkUKW8NtJdE

whats the real issue
http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/152811/the_shocking%2C_graphic_data_that_shows_exactly_what_motivates_the_occupy_movement_/
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/slavevtaxpayer.jpg

heck get your own info
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

Police in America moved in to the protesters camps clearing them.
Much as I predicted, my youth saw me in such camps my union days in others.
I will never understand,the stupidity of some who infest those places.
Violence, trashing public property.
I remember the thugs and mugs, in Canberra,taking control of a peaceful protest.
Such do a better job than the police, in killing the demos.
Yes,had those protesters been quite and in a church, they would have still been forced out,some bashed.
Gandhi was very bright, and very right.
Protesters could do worse than follow his rules.
And by dropping the idiotic lists.
Call for one reform at a time.
Stay away from unwindable wars.
Use what you have media/good conduct/ keep roads and such clear.
Do not engage in conflicts with passers by, thats what they want.
Last? with out you change is not going to happen so go for it.

Dear Belly,

I remember a few years ago being at one protest
which was peaceful. And guess what? Nobody was interested.
I asked one journalist why they weren't taking photos
or filming - and he said, "Oh we're here because we were
told they'd be rioting. Nothing's happening yet."
There you go. I suppose if I had bashed a few of them
with my placards - or torn a policeman off his horse -
our protest might have made it onto the six o'clock
news. Right?

Your probably right Lexi when it comes to media coverage. The right to assembly and how effective it is as a form of democratic expression depends entirely upon the numbers.

As I inferred earlier, if an assembly consists of tens of thousands of participants then obviously the population supports the assembly. If that assembly has attracted undeniable numbers, any form of attempt to break up a peaceful assembly by force, should be considered by any thinking person a case of the state enforcing it's will upon it's population. The media in this situation is irrelevant in the face of democracy in action.

This is why the right to assembly is the most crucial of rights in a democracy.

Two recent examples: Abbott's failed convoy attempt. Obviously this is indicative of the fact that no actual appetite exists, for his election, otherwise people would have voted with their feet. And (2) Imagine if the Howard Govt had bought in the tanks and water cannon to break up the assembly's we saw over Workchoices ?, the thought is preposterous isn't it ?.

I remember days in my youth in peaceful assembly to end a war, that saw the befouled State Govt's of the day insert agitators, narks, and security agents to begin violence within peaceful demonstrations, in order to give the police reason to commit more violence. I proudly remember the police whom could not countenance the instructions of their political masters and crossed the line to our side.

Now that's an assembly. And the only actual professional protesters were the ones on the Govt payroll. The Conservative side of politics in Australia played dirty then and nothing ever changes.

This new wanton display of muscle (by the new liberal state Govt's), by using police force against peaceful assembly, is a tactic of populist politics, this is what makes it even more reprehensible than before. It's of the same fabric or pattern as shooting endangered sharks in WA, or running cows through Victoria's Alpine National Parks. All for targeted votes and poll results and food for the media cycle.

Its dastardly clever Belly, but it scares the pants off me.

Dear thinker 2,

I think I must be getting old.

I no longer have that fire that I used
to have. Well, perhaps it just needs
stirring once more. I watched "Q and A,"
on Monday night and one of the panelists
when asked about the "occupy Melbourne,"
protestors, said, "The young should be angry
and should protest. That's their right.
It's when you reach middle-age that you
should have things worked out by then..."
I'm probably mis-quoting him, but you know
what I mean.

Should we leave protesting to the young?

Hi Lexi, I think there is some truth in the youth aspect, after all it is their world or future, if you like.

And yes I still have a little fire, at least on paper. (lol)

On a serious note with regard to the relationship between the New Victorian Liberal Govt and the Vic Police, it appears the mystery deepens. A link:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-27/police-minister-feels-betrayed-by-adviser/3604704.

And speaking of fire in the belly (not you Belly), after viewing this link, I came to the conclusion that it is clearly possible the the Vic Police Minister Ryan could have been complicit in the undermining of Commissioner Overland and should stand down immediately pending investigation as to the truth of this matter.

It is his word against that of Sir Ken Jones, Weston, Tilley, etc. The Minister is clearly compromised. The Bailleaiu response has been to announce a new loosely termed Independent Crime Commission, no doubt to replace the troublesome OPI.

Worrying times Lexi.

I counter the Victorian Police shambles, or complement them,with this link.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/inquiry-to-recommend-wholesale-reform-of-nsw-crime-commission-20111027-1mm7g.html
Now believe me, this instructive link is understated!
All the sins here are ones in Labors time in office.
Some posters could do well, to inform themselves of my states past.
Not worse than QLD, Victoria, but bad, very bad, not unlike Chicago along time ago.
Sir Robert Askin [remember a knight lost his title and served time in prison in QLD]
Was thought by all to fit that description, his replacement,from my party no less, was no different Big Al had followers.
The crime at their feet, include, mostly are Gambling ones.
Now at some time, we all must stop being side tracked, by politics.
It in this case is not white wash but mud.
And those throwing it, should be with the reformists.
Lexi true but get the group to a place not illegal to gather at tweet and use every way to get the crowd there, POSTERS!
giving details of such as this, even full details,names, events, should be put up not held and soon media will come.

Who's side are you really on Belly, politically I mean.

At the end of the day , the Occupy protesters are attempting to continue their protest in a more convenient or less obstructive place in Treasury Gardens. They know that violence will be commenced against them of they do.

The point they are trying too make is, "that the big end of town are out of control".

I think there is irrefutable evidence that this is true , I believe people in a democracy have a right to publicise a point in which they believe, without being subjected to state violence.

Even more so, if that publicity takes the form of a gathering, (because people cant get their point across like Mining Magnates with multi million dollar advertising campaigns) . Gatherings or assemblies offer the only opportunity in most cases to hear the peoples voice.

If that assembly does not essentially disrupt the lives of ordinary people, what's the problem ?. And why is institutional violence necessary.

The right of assembly ensures that people can assemble to discuss or organize whatever they choose. This right, however, does not obviate the law of trespass or other municipal legislation.

If you want to assemble and protest on your own property no one can stop you. On someone else's property, they can.

Similarly on public property, other citizens share the right of use, and the authorities have the duty to ensure that any protest does not interfere with the rights of others.

The protesters have the right to express themselves. The rest of us have the right to ignore them.