Here is an article from todays smh.

What a brave girl! I suspect she is now encountering the full wrath of her family and community, maybe even ostracised.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/girl-16-gets-court-to-halt-marriage-20110929-1kzds.html

How many others?

Some years ago, it came to light that about 6 young girls sought assistance from our overseas embassies, as they had been sent to middle east countries, supposedly on holiday, but on arrival had found that they were expected to be party to an arranged marriage.

Since then I have endeavoured to get information on the number of forced marriages that occur here but no figures are available. Going on UK figures and applying them here it seems that about 1000 could occur each year.

It seems to me that we should have some easy means where girls, or boys, can get assistance if in this likely situation and that assistance should be widely publicised.

It also raises the question as to where we draw the line on what alien cultural practices we turn a blind eye to. FGM and polygamy are a couple of examples.

I too read the article and as I think may be the case with you am less than happy with it.
You like me, must remember however we are in the Majority.
That is a handy cap.
Any thing we say will be seen as xenophobia, racist or such.
Multi Cuturism, wrongly used to describe the importing of a culture with little intent to include us, draws lines between us.
This young lady, without luck, will see her husband, likely also to be a cousin, bought here.
Get used to it MINORITY'S RULE.

Nice try at widening the target, Banjo.

>>It also raises the question as to where we draw the line on what alien cultural practices we turn a blind eye to. FGM and polygamy are a couple of examples.<<

Given that i) the issue here is arranged marriages and ii) they are not limited to "Lebanese Muslims", your attempt to put FGM under the same heading is a little... obvious, shall we say. A number of my Hindu friends have over the years headed off to India to marry a girl who had been selected for them. Quite an occasion, by all accounts. Lasts for days.

The issue is whether we should intervene when asked, to which the answer is clearly yes, we should. Here's a case from earlier this year:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/arranged-marriage-ruled-invalid/story-e6frg6nf-1225999051515

And here's another, from last year.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/fleeing-arranged-marriage-20100915-15ckx.html

It seems to me that we, as a country, do all that is necessary to help these poor individuals. And as far as I am aware, we have laws that forbid both FGM and polygamy.

So much for that red-herring-cum-dog-whistle.

I think it's great that she stood up for herself. I understand and respect the fact that different cultures have different practices, but when you move to a new country, you have to respect the laws and rights that people in that country enjoy. In Australia a parent does NOT have the right to force their child to marry against their will. That should be enforced.

I think some of us are a bit too quick to condemn arranged marriages.

Irmnan was party to an arranged marriage --at the tender age of 18.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15032947


Did he lose interest in his appointed partner --did he dabble with infidelity --no sha-ria!

He went right-out and got married again.

And Irman is not alone --quiet apart from his two wives!-- there are many more like him.

Pericles,
You said, "So much for that red-herring-cum-dog-whistle"

Comon, the thread heading indicates more than the one alien cultural practice that is of concern where we should do more.

Surely you do not believe that all we need to do is pass a law and everything is A OK.

Arranged/forced marriages is only one of some cultural practices that we turn a blind eye to, unless brought to our attention by the rare court action by these courageous girls.

What is needed here is a well publicised way that these girls can get help and the parents charged with abuse. You are quite right in pointing out that forced marriages are not only that of Lebanese culture, but of other cultures as well. Neither is FGM or polygamy but all have one thing in common, they are alien cultures that are against our laws.

You may be interested to know that FGM has been illegal in all states since 1994. No has been charged with an offence and the incidence is increasing.

No doubt passing a law makes the politicians feel good but does little in itself to reduce the problem, unless action is taken to enforce the law.

Thank you for bringing the other articles to my attention, I had missed them, but now will save them. I noted another article on the recent court action that noted that the magistrate said the incidence was increasing.

There is a big difference between arranged marriages
and forced marriages. By the sound of things this
young girl was being forced to do something against
her will and she did the right thing by seeking help.
Under Australian law that's simply not allowed.

She did the right thing - although it couldn't have
been easy going up against one's parents. Brave girl
indeed.

Lexi,
As I understan it in an arranged marriage either party can freely choose to go ahead or not. In a forced marriage one or both parties are threatened or coerced by violence or emotional blackmail.

There are no figures I can find here, but I have read that in the UK there are estimates of about 3000 forced marriages a year. I have also read that police were re-investigating some 1300 'balcony deaths' involving young females.

The Uk has a special Forced marriage unit to assist those both overseas and in UK. See link.

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/when-things-go-wrong/forced-marriage/

With our ever increasing immigration from countries that may be culturally involved, perhaps we need such a unit here. Help would need to be widely publicised so that those likely would be aware that help is available. Also that school and community social workers are aware.

Dear Banjo,

Thanks for the links.

I wasn't aware that the problem of forced marriages
was so common here in Australia. I knew that arranged
marriages were fairly common, but as you acknowledged
that's a different kettle of fish. Your suggestion of
having similar units here sounds like a good idea,
providing there's enough of a problem to warrant it.
Don't our laws protect people against forced marriages?
I thought they did.

lexi,
yes, forced marriages are against the law here, but the problem is that those likely to be in that position are not aware of where or who to approach for help. As you noted earlier a girl would be under immense pressure and I am sure only the extremely brave would contact someone who can give them advice. what is needed is publicity so the young know help is available

It is a bit like it is illegal to have FGM performed on a girl but we turn a blind eye, even though some hospitals in Sydney and Melbourne have specialist units to deal with post FGM problems. It is reported that FGM is increasing. We do not enforce the laws.

Just passing laws is of little use unless efforts are made to enforce them and the public is aware that we are serious.

I do intend contacting the NSW Minister for Community and Family Affairs, Pru Goward, in relation to this latest incident in the hope moves will be made to ensure there is more publicity given and it is aimed at the schools and communities where the matter is most likely.

I encourage others to do likewise.

Dear Banjo,

Well I've got to say I admire you putting
your money where your mouth is, so to speak.

Can't fault you on any of this.
Especially if you're going to be following
through on things.

Best of luck with Prue Howard.

Banjo did you pick black Berry's when you were young.
I remember it still taking that sheet of iron throwing it on the bush.
Got scratched a lot mum made the best pies.
Bit like that here, or any subject pointing out how wrong, how alien,some practices are.
I know, first hand, some forced weddings will take place no matter what our law says.
And that every chance exists.
This girl, will wed after weeks of great force, this man.
Banjo, in about 25 years, you ,we I will be long gone.
But our words will live on.
From deep within beliefs of a religion not shared by all, laws rules practices we are repelled by are taking place in our country.
I every single day of my life have DEMANDED equality for all women.
Have I the right? need I fear asking? I too believe in the right to practice ANY faith.
But that no God ever existed,need my country in the name of freedom bend to a faith any faith.
Can I think in matters like this with the same freedoms as those in support of a faith/myth?

Belly,
Yes and I recall that the hardest to get blackberries were the sweetest. What is a few scratches anyway.

I am all for gender equallity in most things, except for frontline troops. Not only do I fear for the girls, but male instinct is to protect females in our culture, so some of our blokes may well put themselves at increased risk to look after their female mates. Police I know say the same thing in their job.

It is our apathy that is leading to the demise of our culture and I strongly object to ignoring alien aspects of some cultures. What happens in other countries is their business but here we need to stand up for our hard won social standards.

Politicians ignore FGM and forced marriages, etc. because we do not raise a stink and they rightly believe there is no votes in pursuing them.

We can bear a few scratches.

Banjo it was such as us who filled the front lines and will again be.
And the first to be cast off at the end.
But my fears and concerns come from an understanding, some in about 1930 tried to warn and found them selves ignored even insulted.
While not directly related, while maybe a case of police murder.
A story in this days Sydney morning herald, shows dress more suited to the middle east than here.
And I am forced to wounder again.
If I am free, to say, is freedom of religion for those who do not believe too?
Why change any culture for a myth?
I Banjo, could die for saying that,yes I could, love multi culturism? not todays blindness hiding under its name,no.

Banjo,

Strangely enough -- in the light of some recent court decisions-- one might be in more danger of prosecution from commenting on FGM than from practising it.

<<FGM is so politically and culturally sensitive that even the terminology used to talk about it is fraught.

RANZCOG recommends that the terms "female circumcision" be used when dealing with local communities.

Western countries, including Australia, tend to use the term FGM, but the reference to "mutilation" can be offensive to communities where the practice is not only accepted but considered sacred and aesthetically pleasing>>

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/10/30/1067233290466.html?from=storyrhs

SPQR,
That article was from 2003, and even then was outdated.

Yes Auburn hospital has an FGM unit as does Canterbury hospital. The RMWH in Melbourne apparently treats the most post FGM patients. Other hospitals treat FGM patients from time to time, but am not sure if any have specialist units.

There is no doubt that FGM is carried out here. Sometimes the medicos treat fresh wounds in young girls, that were born here and have never been overseas. Some are treated for bleeding, shock and infection. I do wonder how long before the public is aware of a death from FGM. We apparently now have instances where females that had FGM done to them as young girls here, are now having their own daughters done. So the educatiob aspect is not working. I am not surprised that the educators support further education as it is their job, but we are getting little benefit from it.

It is past time we prosecuted the parents for abuse of these little girls. For 17 years it has been against the law and to date not one prosecution.

It amazes me that we regularly prosecute people in relation to holding cockfights, which is a cultural activity, but not in relation to the mutilation of little girls. Nor in forcing girls to marry against their will.

Banjo,
<< It amazes me that we regularly prosecute people in relation to holding cockfights...but not in relation to the mutilation of little girls. Nor in forcing girls to marry against their will>>

Maybe you should not be so amazed --see here:

"I have seen such differences, however, when police are asked to intervene in domestic violence cases where ethnic groups such as South Asian or Middle Eastern couples are involved. Police often keep greater distance in such cases, some believing that cultural factors are at play and the families and communities should be left to their own devices. We do not officially have parallel laws for other groups, but variable enforcement can have the same effect."

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/dare-to-accept-we-are-different-20110923-1kp91.html

Belly and Lexi,
Today I made effort to update my information relating to forced marriages and in doing so I found there is no specific laws relating to forced marriage, that is why the courts used other various laws to prevent these young girls from being taken out of Australia.

So Lexi, I may have jumped the gun on that.

Also should inform you that the Fed government has released a discussion paper about the issue. Too late to make submissions, however you may find it interesting. See link below

If the government does indeed act on this matter, I will have something to praise them for, which will be a change. Lexi, I have written to Pru Goward about publicity aimed at young people for help on the matter.

http://www.ag.gov.au/www/agd/rwpattach.nsf/VAP/(9A5D88DBA63D32A661E6369859739356)~Discussion+Paper+for+Public+Release+-+forced+and+servile+marriage.pdf/$file/Discussion+Paper+for+Public+Release+-+forced+and+servile+marriage.pdf

Related to the forced marriage problem is the marriage between cousins.
Farmers have known since the beginning of agriculture of the hazards
of inbreeding. Why do we permit it here ?
The Auburn and presumably Bankstown hospital have high genetic problem
figures for the birth rate.
Years ago there was a health dept study at Auburn hospital that pointed
out the problem, but nothing was done.
Just because it is cultural is no excuse and it is the taxpayer that
bears the extra cost.
The cost of special schooling is very high and the burden on mothers
lasts for a lifetime.

Bazz while I get your point it is not of much help in this case.
The British, in fact all of Europe's Royal family's prove the dangers.
Yes it appears the lads need mum and dad to pop the word on brides and yes cousins often.
But here,this thread refers to what can only be seen as slavery and as women being considered property.

The point Belly is that some of these forced marriages are to cousins.
Do you think the girls would willingly marry a cousin if they were
aware of the risk ?
As far as European Royalty is concerned I think they have become
educated now also.

Bazz actually farmers do breed related animals.
And Bazz this has been the practice, not just in this religion for century's.
I truly THINK the girls do as they are told/ do not care/have no choice.
Be aware Bazz this is part of MANY cultures.
My REPUBLICAN that I proudly am, swipe at Royal Family's is based on inbreeding with intent.
Fat old lady Queen Victoria saw her plans put in place,British Royal family inter wed the Royal family's of Europe cousins? some today could be their own uncle!
Old girl got on extremely well with a Scottish man servant late in life.
These days new blood is being introduced with commoners being picked and we have our Tasmanian Princess to prove it.

Marriage to a cousin is perfectly acceptable if the relationship is more distant than first cousin. The chance of reinforcing a genetic defect is no higher then than for any other pairing. DNA dilutes pretty rapidly.

Anti, why take the risk ?
Have you ever noticed the 80 year old mother taking her handicapped
40 odd year old son or daughter shopping.
Would you not do anything you could reduce the chance of that burden ?
Like many you do not have a clue of the life long burden such children put on their parents !

Bazz believe me,I AM NOT BEING FUNNY!
Here in the bush, some villages have one stud Bull, oh plenty of lessor ones but truth is,well DNA may break a lot of hearts.
It is true cousins do not always lead to such defects.
If that was not the truth,whole nations would be so.
A village not far away, is rightly said to describe confusion.
It could be a hundred country towns.
Confusion it is said, is fathers day in that sea side town.
Humanity never let much get in the way of a romp in the hay.

Belly, we are not talking about animals that will be off to the
abattoirs after a period of milking or feed lotting.
The NSW Health Dept showed it to be a problem at Auburn Hospital
Maternity Ward. The report is in Hansard if anyone wants to look.
We are talking about people who will be handicapped for the whole of
their lives and often end up living on the streets when their
parents eventually die.

I would bring in any law that would reduce that occurrence.
I would send any parent that forced a girl to marry against her will
to gaol for a very long time.
I would also require schools to educate teenagers of the risks of
cousin marriage.
Fortunately it has not been a practise in this country ever as far as
I know. It should however be illegal.

Sorry Bazz doubt it ever was illegal.
Church's even tribal people, had laws against it.
But trust me, the number in history who wedded cousins is in billions.
Numbers who bedded them?
Not too many two headed people have resulted.
I DARE not say what parts of the world but thinking about some places has me laughing.
It happens trust me and we are no better than anyone.