I don't understand this controversy, is it not the case that the parents were teaching the child that gender is a social construct and
trying to make the child a better person? I'm sure opposite sex parents have done this before as well...

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/lesbian-foster-couple-put-six-year-old-boy-in-girls-clothes-and-post-photos-on-facebook/story-e6freuy9-1226134282397

TRUTHNOW78: is it not the case that the parents were teaching the child that gender is a social construct and trying to make the child a better person?

No! Duh. If you know any Lesbians, they hate Males with a vengence. Socially they have to tolerate males to be PC. This was a case of redicule at it's worst.

If this was a case of a couple of Male Homo's doing something similar they would have been hung by their delicates on the nearest power pole.

These two will just get a, "don't be so naughty again" (don't get caught) & a slap on the wrist.

Don't play dress-ups with lesbians, kids. Everyone will think you are being ridiculed, you will be mentally scarred for life and society will crumble...

This is another example of how a politically correct stance brings "freedom" to a miniscule minority while trampling the rights of the majority. In this instance the "majority" are defenseless children, no vote , no say and no rights other than the socially engineered direction taken by the overseeing government department, filled to the brim with politically correct imbecile public servants who march to the Fabian beat. They do not make policy; they regurgitate the corrupt social engineering policies adopted from their Fabian head office in the UK.

Re the dykes, they have all the rights that a heterosexual couple has, and like heterosexuals there are those with competent parenting skills and those with lifestyles and ideas that are dangerous and damaging to the child.

That an agency can give a child to a couple who have a gender re assignment issues right now is criminally negligent in regard to placing the child in a stable domestic environment. One year after re assignment would be the prudent time to begin an evaluation into the suitability of a placement.

Male gender re assignment to a female finds the vast majority keeping to the role of heterosexual female with a male partner, they don't turn dykie and chase women. But in the lesser common re assignment of female to male, a large percentage enter into homosexual relationships with men, psychologists don't know why but I would surmise it is hormone driven, but why the reverse is not apparent is unknown.

How degenerated is this woeful socially engineered society the Fabians have foisted on us through the placement of regurgitating imbeciles in key community and social management roles. Kangaroos take better care of their joeys than we do our kids, but we take better care of their joeys than we do our own kids, that is political correctness in motion.

Dear Son of Gloin
Perhaps your vitriolic post reveals that you are a bit behind the times,
what is it that you despise about same sex couples who through no fault of their own are 'different'? Have you ever been insulted by homosexuals?, have you friends who are homosexuals, if you have, then you would see that they are lovely people, very loyal, and capable of bringing up kids, and why shouldn't they? Put your hang-ups behind you my friend, and live your own life without critising people whom you obviously don't know much about. I neither condemn nor embrace homosexuality, it is none of my business, and if these people choose the have kids, they will probably be nurtured into a loving family.
Do you criticise people with disabilities? probably not, what makes them any different from other people?, they are all human beings regardless of setbacks and all of the pain that life has inflicted on them....food for thought I think.
NSB

Dear Noisy,

What lovely sentiments. Most people live their lives,
minding their own business and are reluctant to interfere
in the lives of others. I've always believed in "live and
let live." Perhaps this particular couple were trying to
teach their children simply to have fun - and not indoctrinate
them into any particular gender "roles," or behaviour.
Children as they grow will learn to think for themselves
especially in an environment that encourages them to be
individuals rather than confrom to the status quo.
It's fine to think that you're on the right path in life -
but to think that yours is the only path - narrows things
greatly.

So all lesbians hate blokes?
Gee did not know that!
My brother is a lesbian, me too, we only like women.
Brother has wed far too many.
Has kids from two relationships with him and no woman.
Evil? kids do not think so.
Rather two males or females than unfit parents or some people from any church.
Still, gives us a chance to show concern about another group, another *them*

Lexi….

I think you may be lonely with your stand:

*former Children's Court magistrate Barbara Holborow yesterday called for a full inquiry into the decision to put them there. "Oh my God, what are we doing?" Ms Holborow, who has fostered eight children, said*.

And your stand supports the queer “Dykes” against the childrens welfare, Re:

*The children's story, described as one of the saddest in the state, has been revealed in a Supreme Court judgment posted last month in Children's Law news compiled by the NSW Children's Court*.

And Prue Gowards shock!
*Families Minister Pru Goward has demanded a full explanation from child welfare serviceBarnardos, which had recruited the couple*.

And finally, after forced separation from his elder sister, the infant was left alone with this queer “lot”:

*Campbell and his sister Abby, then 12, were placed with the lesbian couple in early 2009. The placement did not work out for Abby and after she was moved, Campbell was dressed in girl's clothes and his photograph placed on the couple's Facebook page*.

And what other atrocity befell the poor kid, one could only imagine!

*(Quotes from the article supplied).

Lexi, my friend,
Thankyou for your kind words. Many a time have I seen on TV kids who have same gender parents, they seem to enjoy having either two Mums or two Dads, cruelty to kids? never, some of these posters might not realise that kids are not judgmental, a lot of adults could take a lot of lessons from these kids. Let's face it, I was brought up in a so-called 'normal' family, and was abused by my step-father to the point that when I finally left home, I had zero confidence. So to the detractors of same sex marriages, they are probably more comfortable for the subsequent children, who will ever remain accepting of their parent's relationship.
Cheers Lexi,
NSB

Dear Dan,

I've read the Daily Telegraph link that was given
in the opening post and I stand by what I have said.
Until all the facts are in, (and Prue Goward has
issued an investigation into the matter), we don't
really know if there was an intent to abuse or embarrass,
or whether all this was simply a bit of fun.

As another reader pointed out to the newspaper -

"At age 6 there is no learned bias towards what is "normal,"
female and "normal" male. It's simply fun for them to dress
up as whoever ..."

I like to have all the facts before making judgements.

Dear Noisy,

It's so easy to pre-judge people.

The key feature of prejudice is that it's always
rooted in generalisations and so ignores the
differences among individuals. Therefore,
someone who is prejudiced against gays will tend
to have a negative attitude toward any individual
gay, in the belief that all gays share the same
supposed traits.

I'm so sorry that you had a rotten step-father.
I can't even begin to imagine what you must have gone
through. Parents are supposed to protect their
children from harm, not inflict it on them. I have met
some amazing souls on this Forum, and I just want to let you
know, you're one of them.

Take care.

NSB, from my post why you would think that I have an issue with homosexuals is beyond me. I was at the first Gay Mardigras in Sydney; I watched the cops assault and arrest the Gay Rights protesters. I was a teen during the gay revolution that seen Taylor Square and Oxford Street ( five minutes walk from where I was conceived born and lived for 20 years) turn into the gay icon for Oceania. While at school I worked Thursday nights and Saturday morning at the local Flemings in Taylor Square. We shared a loading dock with Capricious, probably the first openly gay night club in Sydney, David who moved the empty bottles from inside the club to the back dock was always trying to crack onto me, but I grew up with it, it does not faze me and I have no issues with homosexuals who did not make a lifestyle choice but were born to it. Given all that NSB I would surmise that the long term inter personal relationship you have had with homosexuals pales to my life experience.

Did you not read this from my post?

"Re the dykes, they have all the rights that a heterosexual couple has, and like heterosexuals there are those with competent parenting skills and those with lifestyles and ideas that are dangerous and damaging to the child."

I make it abundantly obvious that my issue with THIS couple is one of IDENTITY, and it has not yet been resolved. I don't give a bugger if a couple is hetro, homo, or bestial, as long as no imminent or ongoing possible danger comes to a child left in the care of the couple.

NSB just because this couple is gay it does not mean they are free from scrutiny, especially when children are involved.

My stand, Male & female Homo's & abusive parents should not be let with-in Cooee of any child.
Noisy scrub bird: was abused by my step-father to the point that when I finally left home.
I do feel for you NSB. Despite what has happened to you or what you have been told by your Lesbian Social Worker friends. Most Fathers & Stepfathers are great parents.
Lexi: all gays share the same supposed traits.
Yes they do. They will prey on the unaware, hurt & demoralized people to turn them to their ways. Been there had that done to me many times. Someone who is depressed or had a bad relationship, they are right in there with their speil about how bad " men" or Women" are & offering suttle comfort until they can get you into bed. If you want abuse get into a Lesbian relationship then try to leave or go back to men. Better be able to fight real good.

Lexi given your gushing your reply to Noisy you are as naive as she is in regard to understanding the psychology of female to male gender re assignment. Yes let them do as they wish with this child, dress him up, share him around, trade him off as a boy or a girl.

I will tell both you girls something that should be self evident to any mature women, a parent does not dress the little boy as a girl and plaster him on fbook like some carnival attraction from two side show alley sexual identity freaks, his sister does.

This child needs two parents not two sisters, or a sister and brother when the plastic surgeon forms a penis for the new daddy. Clueless and dangerous would describe you and Noisy in regard to this subject, no offense. Have a retink and consider your child being given to these two psychologically lost gender questers.

NSB/Lexi right here in this thread, you can see why some women are Lesbians.
And Lexi in SOG insulting you, you get to be complemented, more than most see I am yet to see much to agree with in posts in this thread from him.
Not all same sex couples are bad people.

Dear Belly,

Thanks.
But don't worry about SOG, I stopped reading
after,

"...given your gushing reply to Noisy."

there is something about this kind of social engineering that makes one want to throw up. Talk about going back to Roman times. What else can you expect from a society that has embraced moral relativism. That is how you end up with so many willing to defend perverse ideology.

Dear Son of Gloin,
I publicly stand corrected, I must admit that it was early in the a.m. when I read your post, and skimmed very quickly, rather than digest very slowly as I usually do. So, I publicly offer my apology, and hope that all is forgiven.
Cheers SOG
NSB

If the child was merely playing dress ups at home, is one issue; but if he was identifying with his women carers or was diliberately being dressed as a girl is disturbing.

I'm with Sonogloin and Philo on this post Lexi and we take political correctness too far when we let parents of any colour introduce gender politics to the life of a child.

A blatant attempt by these people may have occurred to enforce their political view of the world upon a child.
Exactly what you would wish a parent not to do and exactly why there are people out here whom continue to have discomfort with same sex sex couples and child rearing.

Is this really about introducing from an early age, the concept of sexual preference in order that the same sex sex community promote growth in it's community and legitimacy and not about the child ?.

If I may offer an uncomfortable anecdote, I have a relative who's mother a lesbian, who has been telling him since he was old enough too talk, that he was different. She did not encourage his development in sport or any competitive or interactive activities or allow him to interact with other boys in his childhood. The result today is a young man confused about his identity, sheltered and generally finding it difficult to live in the mainstream. Although the persona he has developed to please his mother is one he doesn't necessarily pull off that well, it continues to leave him vulnerable and lacking experience socially.

I have genuine fears for his future even though he has experienced a typical family life since the formative and young years that his mother controlled. I think she used to dress him up as well and have him parade himself up and down in front of the mirror.

"just because this couple is gay, does not mean they are free from scrutiny, especially where children are involved". I agree with this sentiment.

Dear thinker 2,

Of course this couple or any couple for that matter should
not be free from scrutiny when it comes to the welfare of
children. However we don't know all the facts yet and as I
stated earlier until I do I shall reserve my judgement.

NSB, thank you.

Lots of assumptions being made here without knowing the full story. Perhaps the boy wanted to dress up in girl's clothes. Is there any evidence the child was forced to dress in girls clothing.

One of our friends boys did this from the age of 3 (much to his father's ire), he used to love wearing girly headbands and ribbons in his hair.

There are homosexual men now becoming parents using a surrogacy program in India.

Child services is obviously investigating so let them do their job then the facts rather than wild assertions will be known.

Just an observation; people are more outraged by a boy playing dress-ups in female clothing than vice versa.

My niece once thought the pinnacle of hilarity was clumping around in her dad's work boots. She is now 12 and not showing any signs of becoming a lesbian. However, no one would be concerned other than the possibility of being discriminated against if she did turn out to be gay. Which, judging from some of the posters here IS a very real concern.

I think ALL potential foster carers should be well screened for their suitability to foster children in their home, regardless of their sexuality.
There are good and bad parents/carers in all walks of life.

I would be just as loath to place children in a strict fundamentalist Christian home where they may force the children to worship their god, and frighten them with visions of a hell etc, as I would any other abusive home.

Children are resilient, and will adjust to any home where they are shown love and boundaries, and feel secure.

It doesn't matter to children what sexuality their adult carers are.
This sort of thing only matters to bigots.

Of course Ammonite this is not about whether gays are being discriminated against, it's about whether children are being discriminated against or in this case indoctrinated.

Are you suggesting Pelican that gay men producing children through surrogacy will produce gay progeny. Am I reading between the lines correctly here, because if I am you are promoting the number 1 gay myth. The existence of the Gay Gene. A myth that gay advocates have been falsely promoting in the total scientific absence of proof despite the best efforts of those that would wish there was such a thing.

Historically gays have grown their community by education and in the absence of science, had no other way to do it. Now they have opportunity to influence the viewpoints of the child through parenting.

Frankly, it exceeds the wildest dreams of their community to ingrain their legitimacy from an early age into the community or more specifically the child. Do you believe it discriminates against gays to utter the possibility that they could as parents be advocating their lifestyle ?. Crap it does not.

The love is love argument is a bit like the prisoner in jail telling his intended victim that all holes are the same. Or encouraging an accomplice using the same reasoning. Or telling an 11 year boy soprano like I was, that anybody touching it has the same effect.

I didn't care at the time because physiology had already kicked in for me and I proudly told them that I liked girls and I even had a girlfriend.

Stuff this, gloves off with these people. It about time people started standing up for children you worldless knobs.

"Are you suggesting Pelican that gay men producing children through surrogacy will produce gay progeny."

No thinker 2, I am not - you are preaching to the converted. You need to read my history as regards SSM and the like.

I was pointing out in context of this subject, that there are all manner of parenting and all manner of families including gay men raising children. The opening poster is wont to play gender politics so I threw it in there as a knee jerk. As I said on another thread children benefit from stable loving parenting and this can be achieved in a number of family arrangements.

Actually re-reading your post thinker 2 I am not sure I understand your position.

I don't know why some people are gay or not - homosexuality is not a phenomenon of the modern age, gay people have existed throughout history. It is only recently that gay people could reveal themselves without fear of persecution. Which defies the idea that one 'chooses' to be gay because it is trendy.

Whether it be a gene, a difference in hormonal makeup, synapses, spinal alignment...whatever is something of which there is no substantial research.

There is obviously some biological action at work, young people don't sit at a smorgasbord selection and choose to be gay - you either are or you aren't - or bisexual. Some people are wired differently and there is a wide sexuality spectrum as I see it.

When I know the reason I will let everybody else in on it.

Thinker 2: The love is love argument is a bit like the prisoner in jail telling his intended victim that all holes are the same. Or encouraging an accomplice using the same reasoning. Or telling an 11 year boy soprano like I was, that anybody touching it has the same effect.
Yep, as I said before, "They will prey on the unaware, hurt & demoralized people to turn them to their ways. Someone who is depressed or had a bad relationship, they are right in there with their speil about how bad " men" or Women" are & offering suttle comfort until they can get you into bed."
If you say anything against them, or their methods of inducing or converting young boys or girls to Homosexuality then you get branded as Homophobic etc.
As Thinker 2 said: "Stuff this, gloves off with these people. It about time people started standing up for children you worldless knobs."

Where is the evidence homosexual conversions are taking place? This is just stab-in-the-dark hypothesising. What about the conversion practices of the Church including attaching electrodes or the conditioning programs used to re-programme homosexuals. Was that not barbaric?

Many male abusers of boys have been heterosexual. Why do many prison inmates access any port in a storm so to speak but are heterosexual by nature. I don't understand the mentality of sexuality but to align it with child sexual abuse is a gross misrepresentation, where is the evidence?

Human beings are much more complex and I reckon sexual deviance sits in a category all by itself.

Pelican <"Human beings are much more complex and I reckon sexual deviance sits in a category all by itself."

Quite right there Pelican, but we will never change the views of people like JayB, Thinker2 or Runner.

Jayb <", "They will prey on the unaware, hurt & demoralized people to turn them to their ways. Someone who is depressed or had a bad relationship, they are right in there with their speil about how bad " men" or Women" are & offering suttle comfort until they can..." recruit you into their cult/religion?

It doesn't sound like any gay people I have ever heard about Jayb, but maybe you know more of them than I do? But gee, it sure sounds like several religious organizations who also are well known to adopt those tactics to recruit new 'followers' doesn't it?

What I can't understand is why anyone would think anyone else would 'choose' to be homosexual? They are often vilified and bullied as children and teenagers, and then discriminated against and shunned by many unfeeling people as adults.

Have you ever had thoughts that you might want to have sex with someone of the same gender guys? If you weren't born with that tendency, I doubt anyone could 'suggest' that you be a sexually active homosexual, do you?

Anyone who claims to be 'cured' of homosexuality is either living a lie, or was never truly homosexual in the first place.

suzeonline,
Most homosexual acts world wide take place by bisexual men. So to suggest homosexuals are an exclusive underclass discriminated against is not correct.

Dear Lexi,
Unusual for me, I was watching "The View" on TV this afternoon (bad weather outside). Two of their Guests were ex Vice President Dick Chaney and his wife. Somewhere in the conversation, Dick Chaney was asked what he and his wife thought about same sex marriages. Their reply was quite intriguing, Mrs. Chaney announced that their daughter is gay, and in a gay marriage, with children. Dick Chaney said that,and I quote, "I have no problems, America is a Free Country, people have a right to make choices". Perhaps some of our Politicians might take a more Liberal approach to these matters. Enjoy your day my friend.
NSB

Dear Noisy,

I'm currently home with some virus and I'm
coughing madly, anyway, I have to spend the day
sitting up because everytime I lie down things
only get worse. So guess what? I also watched
"The View," today, and frankly was very impressed
by Dick Cheney and his wife and their attitude
towards same-sex marriage. This is the best I've
ever seen Dick Cheney - and his wife was great.
I guess it makes a huge difference when something
like that hits home - with your own children.
People tend to forget the humanity involved in
making decisions that affect people's lives.
Every gay person is afterall - somebody's child.

BTW: Wasn't it a bit unnerving - when he produced
his "heart pump," so matter-of-factly. You wouldn't
want to be out of batteries at any time . I think
I'd rather have an operation that have to carry all of
that equipment around with me.

Hi Pelican , I have a high regard for your posts, particularly when your drilling down into a subject.

Rather than hypothesise, I was rather thinking of historical behaviour (as I say in the absence of science) by the Gay community in the past when it comes to the advocation of lifestyle.

I purport that most males between the age of 10 and 14 yrs experience a gay approach, even if they don't recognise this event as such, at that time.

An example, an older male in a pool hall with a trendy car , a slab on the front seat and porn mags on the back seat, invites the younger male for a spin in his car. Unless the older male proceeds with the planned approach the younger male just goes for a spin in the car.

In the tough area I grew up in, people and situations like this, were more prevalent than imagined by the authorities/parents, when I was growing up. I also had a career as a boy soprano making it doubly hard to establish my cred in the school ground. So you might say Pelican, if anyone knows about gays and children, I do.

For the record I would say that the line between same sex preference or lifestyle advocacy and predation, is blurred at this point and I must be careful to not reflect unfairly on the gay community and understand and accept their right to choose their lifestyle.

I think that 10 to 14 yrs maybe a formative and appropriate time to "not" introduce concepts such as sexual preference to the life of an adolescent , let alone to the life of a junior (pre 10 yrs) person. Why is this required ?. And how is this good for children as a proposition ?

Thinker2, my best friend married a very anti-gay, churchgoing guy and they had 3 children. Their eldest boy only ever hung out with little girls from a very early age.
Boys seemed to shun him for some reason.
At the age of 3, he used to wear his sisters clothes and his mother's shoes around the house.

From that time, all her friends were certain he would be gay.
He was a very gifted child and wonderfully creative.
He had a lot of trouble in both primary school and high school with bullying from boys, and thus had a really sad childhood.

At the age of 19, he shocked his family and came out as gay.
No one else was shocked.

His father remains homophobic and still doesn't talk to his only son.
No one in that household, or his private Anglican Schools 'encouraged' him to 'choose' any lifestyle.
You are born gay.
No doubt about it.

Suzi

Would you consider a woman who has had a number of kids and a bad relationship with a man and then living as a lesbian as being born 'gay' ?

Dear suzeonline I am reminded of an anecdote from a father who was telling a shock jock on commercial radio, about his first junkie son dying in the gutter, and that all drug dealers should be executed. He then went on to say that his other son was about to go the same way.

I remember thinking that this guy hadn't learnt a thing from the first tragedy, and probably that his prophesy was self perpetuating. If the first son had had the support of his family he may not have died in a gutter, for the second son this was most probably inevitable in the same isolation, the same paradigm.

Basically suzeonline I understand the stupidity of prejudice., but we are talking about the life experience of children here, not adults making lifestyle choices, unhealthy or otherwise.

I understand the rights of adults to make lifestyle choices, in fact I think there should be a widening of these concepts and freedoms, but none the less, as to whats the controversy here asked at the inception of this post, the controversy clearly remains.

Is this same sex couple living their political philosophy through their children ?.
If they are, I am not in favour of this.

I must follow up to say also suzeonline, that your post also attempts to support major myth number 2. That there is a link between being gay and creativity.

Of course it is not even likely that this is true. Actually the proportion of particularly artistically creative people, can be traced genetically through families, and has nothing whatsoever with being gay or not. In fact, because the overwhelming majority of people are "not gay", then it becomes obvious that the greatest chance of finding a person with a genetic disposition for artistic endeavour, would be in the community at large.

Maybe his first creative output was mistaken for sexual preference or tendency, by adults wishing to support that view.

"From that time, all her friends were certain he would be gay."

Maybe the kid never had a chance really, from the sound of that suzeonline.

What a difficult problem or not. All you have to do "adults, is to remember way back to your first memory as you as child. Its easy for me but not so for others. I'll confess, I've had the picture perfect up bring, like most here. However I was surrounded by a family of 109 members of both sexes, and depending what situation, I remember both sexes sharing the duties as it was call for.

So I had an equal amount of both sexes that's made me the persons Iam today. So in your thinking's, its out the window for families at large, yeah right.

As a child, I could feel the love through the family members, without my parents being there.

It must be like when you drop your child off at day-care, and its not "are you my mummy?, its more like the experience of love by the all.

I cried too, my first days of school.

However after getting not being with the multy family world I grew up in, I walked my first steps without the structures that I was custom to.

Community is was the island after that.

cactus

Runner, if all women who hated men 'chose' to become gay as a result of this hatred, wouldn't there be far more lesbians in the world?
I too have had hard times with men in the past, but in my wildest dreams I would never be attracted to other women.

Because of the terrible bigotry obvious in our society towards gay people, many of them live a life as a heterosexual at first.
They aren't ever happy living a lie though, so eventually they can't keep living this way.
All this is well known in our society ... where have you been?

Thinker2, like Runner, there is no reasoning with you is there.
Of course not all homosexuals are creative, but I never said that did I? No one would ever say to my friend that her son was obviously gay, and certainly he needed no 'convincing'.

I have seen it with my own eyes several times Thinker2 ... I am sorry, but people are definitely born gay.
Again, I would suggest that no amount of 'pushing' would cause someone to become gay!
Lol ...!

thinker2
I also have great respect for the egalitarianism and compassion reflected in your posts.

" think that 10 to 14 yrs maybe a formative and appropriate time to "not" introduce concepts such as sexual preference to the life of an adolescent , let alone to the life of a junior (pre 10 yrs) person. Why is this required ?. And how is this good for children as a proposition ?"

I tend to agree, there are times throughout adolescence where teens might experiment without necessarily being a precursor to homosexuality. My posts are not advocating raising sexuality as a topic for children in the same way that sex education is not usually aimed at pre-teens. Children have to first reach a level of maturity to be able to understand what is being presented. My children and their peers tend to accept that some people have different sexual preferences and think this is perfectly 'normal' in a range of people.

Like suzeonline I have gay people within my own extended family and that experience influences my view that people are born that way and many signs of that come quite early.

The whole choice vs biological is an interesting one overall. The argument that somebody can just decide to be gay is not rooted in logic (for me anyway). Even if a person could just make a choice in the same way we decide which cereal brand to buy, I would also argue that is their right. However, if you don't have an inclination to same sex that choice would not be made. Bisexuality is different in that there is attraction to the person first moreso than gender and in that way bisexuality must sit in the middle of the spectrum as say 1 being totally hetero and 10 being gay with bisexuality sitting around 4-6 (if you get my drift-plotting it on a graph).

suzeonline, is obviously conditioning this young boy to consider himself homosexual by her view of him.

She said, "No one would ever say to my friend that her son was obviously gay, and certainly he needed no 'convincing'. I have seen it with my own eyes several times Thinker2 ... I am sorry, but people are definitely born gay."

So she has predermined his sexual orientation by the way she looked at this infant child.

Don't be ridiculous Philo.

Me, or anyone else thinking someone will probably be gay (although we were right), doesn't 'cause' someone else to be gay.

I say again, why would anyone 'choose' to be gay?

What could anyone say to you to 'make' you become gay?
That is a truly silly notion, and you know it.

You don't like the 'sins' of being gay, according to your religion, so you search for any reason other than the one that says that gay people ARE born gay.
Indeed, if a God is said to have made all living things, then they made gay people as well, didn't they?

“The children's story, described as one of the saddest in the state”

Hahaha...

Ahh dear poor Abey.

Freaky thing about Barnardo’s is that we hand them guardianship (far as I know) not merely custody. Legal stuff - boring but hard to argue with.

Philo:” If the child was merely playing dress ups at home, is one issue; but if he was identifying with his women carers or was diliberately being dressed as a girl is disturbing.”

FFS’s why?

Suzy:” I think ALL potential foster carers should be well screened for their suitability to foster children in their home, regardless of their sexuality.”

Well that don’t happen – don’t you know there is money to be made?

Are nurses well screened to be sympathetic?

Does not matter who the kids are or what is happening to them, the ones with all the clout win and the ones with clout in NSW are the NGO's. They don't go for all this rubbish about "best interests of the child", it boils down to 'will me make more money'.

Go NICE Christians! Go hard!

No need to be sorry suzeonline and in the same way that people believe in the existence of the almighty, I have a problem with such concepts in the absence of proof.

You would have to admit it is easy to come up with notions like "people are born gay", when basing such propositions upon a pre-existence set of beliefs or faiths, if you like.

These sets of pre-existing beliefs are in most cases, born of education, and are usually acquired prior to the formative years in a person's life. This process is already are problem for childhood, with religions, corporations and their advertisers, and gays, all competing for the attention of youth, in support of their own sets of beliefs or requirements.

I am in favour of letting nature take it's course when it comes to conception and child rearing and would shudder at the thought of a world where children are manufactured to suit the needs of their guardians in future.

Having said that, I still have not seen any evidence of infant or early age same sexual attraction in my own life or lifetime suzeonline, but I can recount several cases of influence.

First time I even thought about love or why I was attracted to someone, was probably about 9 or 10 ish, in a otherwise uninterrupted childhood. The concept of coitus, still a mystery. Compare that too the childhood today's "fashion parade infants" are having, and you'll get my drift.

Jewely <"Are nurses well screened to be sympathetic?"

Of course not, but most nursing is done in the public eye, in public hospitals etc, and at least they have someone overlooking their care most of the time.

Children in foster homes are much more isolated, and at the mercy of their foster parents in a small home environment.

I didn't realise it was so lucrative to be a foster carer?
Obviously you know all about it Jewely, so what sort of money are we talking about here?

thinker2
"I am in favour of letting nature take it's course when it comes to conception and child rearing and would shudder at the thought of a world where children are manufactured to suit the needs of their guardians in future."

I would think there would be little resistance to the idea of letting nature take it's course. What will be will be, but in reality this means statistically a minority of people will display a different-to-the-norm sexuality. It is what has always happened. History shows this to be true in spite of deep resentment and opposition to homosexuality, and certainly no programming involved.

Many people in the past married due to social pressures while living a lie and it is only in modern times that homosexuals have been able to 'come out of the closet'. I know a few cases where men have left their wives after being honest with them about their true feelings. Living a lie to conform to some socially constructed norm does more harm to both partners.

As far as this case goes, sure if there is any hint of abuse from the lesbian foster parents of course the child should be removed. Homosexuals are as accountable for their actions as any other. I just believe the controversy is more about the fact the couple are lesbians which sometimes reduces the chances of a fair and rational investigation in favour of a media witch hunt.

Pelican <" I just believe the controversy is more about the fact the couple are lesbians which sometimes reduces the chances of a fair and rational investigation in favour of a media witch hunt."

Absolutely no doubt about that statement!

If all these 'worried' anti-gay parent contributors are so upset about the possible abuse of children in foster care, then why aren't they just as concerned about the far greater numbers of heterosexual foster parents who have abused their foster children?

There must surely only be a tiny number of gay foster parents in the system, given that they are vastly in the minority in our society anyway.

I am also hoping they yelled just as loud about all the supposedly heterosexual priests and other church-based carers in the past who have abused children in their care?

Hello?

suzeonline: I am also hoping they yelled just as loud about all the supposedly heterosexual priests and other church-based carers in the past who have abused children in their care?

I sure do SOL, I see people HURTing kids, I get stuck in to them bigtime. Mind you that doesn't include a well deserved smack "On The Bum" when warranted. As My Grandmother used to say, "Use the soft end of the brush on the soft end of the child,& if that doesn't work, reverse them both."
Alternatively, when I see a child training it's mother, I am inclined to step in & say so as well.
As I have said before, I'm anti-Politically Correct & Proud.

I must be similar to you in that way Jayb, in that I believe a little smack for a very naughty child does no harm.

What about the kids who believe they are gay Jayb?
Would you stand up for anyone denigrating or abusing them too?

suzeonline,
How do you determine a child is Homosexual?

Posted by suzeonline, Friday, 16 September 2011 7:19:37 PM

" ... Don't be ridiculous Philo.

Me, or anyone else thinking someone will probably be gay (although we were right), doesn't 'cause' someone else to be gay. ... "

People like *Philo* who seek to make rules about whom may Luv whom and who in addition seek to personally enforce them would be best dealt with by corporal punishment in my opinion.

For the crimes of the various political churches a.k.a. as the churches of the rock spiders who have additionally been involved with the theft of children should have their land and possessions confiscated and many of them should go to gaol under retrospective laws.

Philo <"suzeonline,
How do you determine a child is Homosexual?"

I don't determine it Philo, nature does (or your' God, if that is what you believe).
How do you determine a child will be heterosexual?
Same answer...

suzeonline,
So you condition by your mind's view a child to determine his / her sexual orientation which is opposite to the factual reality of his / her biological sex.

I have a couple of male friends who love dressing up in women's clothes, yet both have very stable long marriages and each have grown family. One has three daudhters and a son, the son is a ballet dancer in Switzland and his sisters play soccer, hockey etc but he loves the company of girls. But according to you that son because he is effeminite is homosexual - which he will never be as he keeps company with a girl.

Philo
Suze is saying no such thing, just that nature will take it's course as I understood her comments.

An effeminate boy does not necessarily mean he will be homosexual just as a tomboy girl won't necessarily be a lesbian. I've known some manly gay men and some feminine lesbians. Homosexuals are like heterosexuals - there is no homogenous identifying factor other than sexual orientation.

You tend to see the world in black and white. It is never that easy. No-one is arguing that parents teach kids sexuality, it does not happen that way. I have seen kids from the same family, same socialisation, same care and love and one of them was homosexual. It was evident really from the age of about 14 but he did not come out until he was about 18.

It is cruel to discriminate against somebody because they are of a different sexual orientation. That is really the bottom line. We are living in a democratic civilised nation and that differs from a dictatorship in allowing a wide variety of people to be able to express their views and live an authentic life that has meaning to them even if if differs from the norm. The test is 'no harm'. I am yet to be convinced that homosexuality or SSM will cause harm.

I know that I am going to offend everyone ...

I have been a feminist for many years.

I know lesbian couples who are raising/raised children. Without distinction, whilst the couples do not suffer open descrimination, the children have a pretty ghastly time of it. People can be very cruel.

In such a position, I would put 'on hold' any intention to co-habitate, or marry (with which I have no problems at all) until the children ... are either officially adult, or have left home.

This may sound very harsh. However ...

I am heterosexual, married with children. In the case of my marriage having broken down, I would have also applied this stricture to bringing a man into the house; for very different reasons. Whilst most men are decent, there is the risk of sexual abuse (overt or covert), which cannot be forseen. This is the problem. This is not feminist 'ranting', but sober experience. I would never put my children through this risk, albeit slight.

Returning to the same-sex issue. Whilst such couples often have the skills to combat negative reactions, it is not fair to expect children to do their battles for them.

Danielle

The reason why gays and lesbians are discriminated against is because they are discriminated against.

Which you have just done.

That circular argument is the entire problem - when gays have equal rights and treated equitably they will experience less abuse. For example, discrimination against immigrants goes in phases, years ago Greeks and Italians were given a hard time, now it is anyone of Middle Eastern appearance. While we cannot make laws against stupidity, we can ensure that all people have the same opportunities to love, life, education, employment and so on.

Singling out people for whatever 'difference' they are perceived as having and then compounding this attitude with different laws regarding marriage, adoption or artificial insemination only gives bigots or religious zealots more excuse to abuse others.

Ammonite,

I am not discriminating against gays and lesbians. However, there are elements within society that do. In time this will change. But it is not right to place children in the vanguard for discrimination - evidence is out there for all to see. Hopefully, with changing society, such households will be accepted, and these children will not suffer. Until there is a groundswell of change, children should be protected. I would have thought that same sex parents would be sensitive to how their choices impact upon their children. I am not saying that couples should not be committed to each, but surely they can wait to live together until the children are raised. Whether heterosexual or homosexual parents, this should be a given.

It is fine for people to live as they wish ... but thoughtful consideration as to the impact on their children, whilst they are in their care, should be a priority. The dregs of society discriminate against children (and hurtfully), where they wouldn't dare openly discriminate against their parents.

Incidentally, one of the most successful and loving marriages I know is where the husband and wife (heterosexual) live in different houses.

Ammonite ... I knew I would offend ... and undoubtedly everyone ... apologies :-[

Indeed it is a terrible dilemma that *Danielle* speaks of.

..

Your words in no way offend me *Danielle*, I assure you, but I would suggest to vacate your Heart's natural Loves and desires is to give in to the hatred and bigotry of the likes of philo and runner, who incidentally should be dealt with most harshly in my view. In fact, I would bring back corporal punishment for their kind.

..

You see, if you are in a Loving relationship, that Love will infuse you and flow from you unto your children. If you deny it or lock it out by force of will, then that too will flow out and onto your children, which in my view would a negative thing.

..

As said, " ... The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. ... "

...

Additionally, kids can be awfully cruel with or without reason, and if it is not one thing, it is another.

..

Likewise, to overly sterilise your environment against bacteria, viruses and parasites and your children risk devoloping underdeveloped immune systems.

..

The key to life in part I believe is balance, and whilst I sympathise with your position, I would encourage you to both give and receive Love and not to give in to the hatred of others by in effect going into hiding.

..

I note again that this is the sort of effect that filth like philo and runner can have on people, and why I support extreme measures being taken against them.

DreamOn,
Please identify your accusations against me!

We as a family have been foster parents to over 153 infant children from DOCS; plus seven of our own. When you have a good parent record then comment.

You are nothing but a grub!

How do you that I don't have a good parent record you stupid old fool?

You live in a world of delusion mate and if you keep coming round here with your bigoted homophobia look out.

Consider yourself fortunate that I don't know who you are.

DreamOn,
You bully. I have several police in my family it is your type they keep an eye upon.

Now, now girls. Go outside & play nicely.

Jayb,
Thanks mate! When one does not have a reasoned point of view that can be discussed they turn to bullying and threats of violence. Obviously he is insecure with people of different opinion. His life and home is an environment of threat and violence.

You are the filth preaching homophobia *Philo* and for that, as said, the best solution is corporal punishment.

..

I am glad that you feel threatened and intimidated to the extent that you go running like the snivelling coward that you are to your family. That is but a small taste of what you deserve for intimidating and threatening people of the gay and lesbian population.

..

I have ill will for people like you because of the suffering and heart ache that you cause. In fact, long have the mainstream political churches been the hand maiden of the transplanted genocidal pom in their activities of stealing babies and destroying families.

..

I find nothing that you say to be reasoned and you continue to assume that which you do not know.Like that equally stupid old fool jensen who goes on tv and states, " ... I know, I know ... " when referring to his fervent clap trap.

..

You are a bad joke, and as said, I hope you are caught in the act of preaching homophobia and made to suffer because of it.

..

In that regard, I attack to defend those who you oppress.

..

Children have the right to be free of indoctrination, and it is your kind who spawn hate in little ones who know no better by encouraging them to be homophobes and subscribe to faerie tale belief.

..

I consider that it is best that people like you are removed from positions where you can influence children, like the rest of the paedophiles and sickos who have raped children during tender moments with Jesus.

DreamOn,
Most peadophiles engage in homosexual acts.

Jesus teaching on marriage identified a group of men who will never marry, known as eunuchs. The Bible mentions eunuchs being made by others this practice is not endorsed as Christian.

1. Those born eunuchs and had no desire of a wife.
2. Those made eunuchs as they were to serve in the Queens courts.
3. Those chosen not to marry to serve God a greater cause.

In NT times the Essene community took vows not to contaminate themselves by having sex with women {or men). The women in the community were virgins, if they desired children were artificially inseminated.


Mt 19:3 Some Pharisees came to him, and to test him they asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?" 4 He answered, "Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate." 7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?" 8 He said to them, "It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marry another commits adultery."

Mt 19:10 His disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry." 11 But he said to them, "Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.

Isa 56:1 The Covenant Extended to All Who Obey

Thus says the LORD:
Maintain justice, and do what is right, for soon my salvation will come and my deliverance be revealed.

Isa 56:2 Happy is the mortal who does this, the one who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath, not profaning it, and refrains from doing any evil.

Isa 56:3 Do not let the foreigner joined to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely separate me from his people"; and do not let the eunuch say, "I am just a dry tree."
Isa 56:4 For thus says the LORD: To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant,
Isa 56:5 I will give, in my house and within my walls, a monument and a name
better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off.

Isa 56:6 And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, all who keep the Sabbath, and do not profane it, and hold fast my covenant Isa 56:7--

Cont:

Ac 8:26 Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch

Then an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Get up and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." (This is a wilderness road.) 27 So he got up and went. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning home; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go over to this chariot and join it." 30 So Philip ran up to it and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 He replied, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him. 32 Now the passage of the scripture that he was reading was this:
"Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter,
and like a lamb silent before its shearer,
so he does not open his mouth.
Ac 8:33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth."
Ac 8:34 The eunuch asked Philip, "About whom, may I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?" 35 Then Philip began to speak, and starting with this scripture, he proclaimed to him the good news about Jesus.