http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/malaysia-solution-backfires-for-government-that-failed-to-do-its-homework-20110831-1jlg4.html

"Malaysia solution backfires for government that failed to do its homework"

Yet again, an ill considered and researched misadventure by the Labor government will cost the tax payer hundreds of Millions of dollars and achieve exactly nothing.

Where to from here?

I in this post, will upset both the greens and the Shadow Ministers of Conservatism.
Not every conservative is so fixed as those.
But no other way exists, my views are shared,by over 80% of Australians.
Love us/hate us the middle has determined it wants the boats to stop.
Last night two thoughts went through my mind as I heard of this ruling and watched Sara Hanson Young talk.
First what a good looking woman she is.
Second? here is a woman, telling Australia, from a voting basis of less than 1 in 5 we do not matter.
Abbott his minions, are rolling on the floor laughing.
Yet if the independents walked across the floor in two weeks?
He too would lead a government, that had to try to handle 9 green senators and two hight court judges who?
Told us, the 8o% we have no say.
About now, in Indonesia, boats are about to start being booked to come, they, with help from others defied us.
Greens want on shore processing,
If today, the SMs quietened, if Abbott and Gillard sat to together, and said lets fix this.
Leave the weapons at the door, it would take a huge bin for Tony's tongue,as big as Gillards ego.
And said lets put together a policy that is court proof, lets get this issue resolved.
one day flogging stick this thread is about changes hands soon and only minority's win.
Those refugees siting in camps all over the world are victims of EVERYONE involved in this.

Belly,

I like your term "court proof".....this pesky rule of law 'nall that : )

I'm wondering if the opposition's laugh is just a tad muted, as this decision apparently has ramifications for the Nauru option as well.

Foe my part, it's always gratifying to see that a crappy, hastily cobbled together policy based on a sell out of previously strongly pushed convictions is squashed flat.

The government still has the option of TPVs which are an effective deterrent in themselves, as they prevent the import of extended family.

Secondly the judgement may not apply to Nauru as the detention centre there is administered by Australia, and the detainees are not subject to local law.

Finally, the law could be changed, but it would need the co operation of the coalition, something labor has shown no signs of since 2007.

The legal situation of Nauru will have to be reviewed before it can be
used again. The situation has descended into farce.
Why not specify that the boats will have to go to Heard Island instead
of Christmas Island as it is basically full.
Heard Island has a similar legal definition.
Also the boats would have to be much more sea capable and many seekers
would refuse such a voyage.
I am being a bit tongue in cheek about that, but Christmas Island is
much too close to Indonesia to be a deterrent.

We simply have to draw a line in the sand and say STOP !
We have to start towing them back to Indonesian waters and leave them
with enough fuel to get to an Indonesian port.
If they scuttle the boat take them to Indonesia and declare them as
passengers on an Indonesian vessel under SOLAS rules.
Unless we do, just how many millions are we prepared to accept before
we get the guns out to stop the invasion ?

Poirot, I do you know,greatly respect you.
Even Ammonite who manages to arm wrestle me for my views, and she, in a post not long ago, said she knows most Australians, do not care, just want the boats stopped.
I see plenty I respect, Morgan , too unhappy with my direction and comments.
I want you, and them, to understand this is me, not a populist not concerned about what others think of me.
Yes court proof,I distrust courts lawyers, funny wigs and the lot of them.
And I think most do.
Easy to flog my team for failing here.
Even easy to slag them off for trying to equal the Liberals past actions and go past them.
But my Friend tell me this is not true.
Labor now, haveing tried and so far but not yet, failed is one step closer to the opposition bench's.
Hate me, if you must!
But far too many this morning woke up loathing Sara Hansen Young and my party.
The future election will be just a start.
Within 3 months, no longer the incoming government has no choice.
It maybe with Labors compliance,will bring on another full election, in both houses.
See love me or hate me , rule by the minority or by Courts over ruling the 80% is not Democratic.
I do not like your party,but write in cold hard facts not dislike of it or its followers.

Belly,

Believe it or not, I don't judge someone's character on their political affiliations. I have very good friends who are Liberal fans and rabid "growthers". I often have trouble getting on with people who are inclined to my political views.

You see, at the moment I can't stomach Australian politics at all. I've gone from being a political animal to someone who can't bear to watch any of them on TV - so repelled am I by the complete dearth of wisdom and virtue (not a skerick).

I found the hypocrisy displayed by Labor in the Malaysian Deal to be the absolute straw that broke the camel's back as far as my political leanings are concerned - the greens included. On the other hand, I now couldn't give a stuff what any of them do - rather liberating in its way.

End

Poirot,

On the issue of rule of law, the courts are there to interpret law and the parliament to make the law. If the law is changed to reflect changed conditions, the rule of law still persists.

Belly,

I would actually encourage Labor to put heads together with the coalition to formulate a permanent strategy, and legal basis.

Belly said;
But far too many this morning woke up loathing Sara Hansen Young and my party.

I too find Sarah, just too hard to take.
She is one of those female Uni students screaming at demos and never grew up.

SM,

The court ruled on its interpretation of law as it stands...yep, agreed.

It does seem that the only way ahead is for the two major parties to cooperate on this one....I'm sure that in pursuing such a united approach they'd come up with something suitably xenophobic to mollify the imagined fears of the electorate.

SM,

Absolutely agree! The two parties should get together
on solving this complex problem.
Best idea from you yet!

Belly

I have NEVER stated that most Australians want the boats stopped. How dare you use my name to conjure a point in your post.

Like, Poirot, I am relieved by the decision and hope that finally BOTH parties; Labor & LNP will finally see common as well as financial sense (off shore 'processing' costs megabucks) and assess refugees onshore.

While the LNP may be enjoying another Labor debacle, they cannot be too smug - Nauru is not a solution either. Never was.

Until then, both Labor and the LNP are trolling the depths of moral responsibility.

The whole country,except for Hanson-Young, is now mocking Labor.

Me, I shudder at the money wasted on the whole illegal boat people fiasco and am thankfull that this mob didn't give us a Republic. Can anyone imagine what sort of shamozzle that would be?

This is what happens when warped ideology is put ahead of practicality.

They take something that works, change it with their warped ideology and completely stuff it up. About 200 have died and the cost is enormous. Now there is one hell of a job to fix it, again at great cost.

Labor deserves to be mocked by everyone as they have shown that they could not pour water out of a bucket, with directions written on the base. My list of stuff ups grows.

If I were leader of the Opposition, I would not help Labor in this, I would rub their noses in the mess they created. But Labor will not learn.

You cannot fix stupidity.

I'm almost convinced that this Malaysian solution scheme is a deliberately flawed attempt to sink border security.

Just like the Bill of Rights was built to fail by putting zero-credibility religious nutter (and refugee advocate) Frank Brennan in charge;

This attempt to vaguely pretend to be preventing asylum seekers (which conservatives would theoretically not want to argue with for fear of dropping any form of asylum bill entirely)- will prove expensive and result in more people being let in (so the usual bunch of naysayers can use this to peddle the 'its expensive and they come in anyway' general mantra for 'pro-refugee advocacy';

Putting aside that we rarely deport people, and apparently are considering to actually compensate these people for their failed attempt to force entry into our country.

Meanwhile, much of Europe deports asylum seekers much more readily

The best possible opportunity for little Julia to rehabilitate her self.

First quickly get a bill into parliament, to "fix" the law, & put these jumped up dills, the judges, in their place, if it passes.

Secondly to wedge Abbott.

Such a bill puts him in the position of,

1/ Having to pass it, for the good of the country, letting Julia out of one of the corners she has painted herself into.

2/ Stop it passing, & give some weight to the Labor claim that he is just an opportunist, not interested in good government.

In the former case the lefties would crow, but Abbott could look a bit like a statesman to many, if he played it right. In the latter Julia looks almost like she did something right. Better still, Abbott looks like a petulant kid.

This is wrong, we should elect our judges with the parliament, so we could get rid of this swill, but it has made things a bit more interesting.

AMMONITE! if it was not you who said in such a thread you are aware most Australians do not care I am sorry.
However having seen you post in various names, I am finished trying to talk to you.
Shadow Minister, Lexi, yes I agree, Gillard must eat her humble pie.
Right now,for the information of Bazz and others, the word is no of shore stuff can take place not one of shore process.
So Gillard Abbott get together.
Put our country first.
Make a law in the place such are MADE Parliament, to stop the boats.
Here are the implications of not doing it chances out of ten of them coming true in my view Labor out of office for ten years 10
Liberals confronting same problem ten
Smuggling makes our country look dumb 10
Can we leave our biases at the door, is it true most Australians want the boats stopped.
And is cit true, be honest! most hold the greens in contempt?
In the most BIZARRE WAY I truly think,the greens unless they compromise on this issue bury both them selves and Labor.
Only Labor, one day will climb out of.
I know this, greens are in bigger numbers here on line than they ever will out side in the real world
Support for the greens is support for conservative government.

Just for the record and according to Alexander Downers own admission on the ABC, but the Nauru/TPV combination never actually stopped any boats from leaving for our shores.

George Bush's military adventures temporarily decreased the international flow rate of refugees and despite the usual claims, boats still left for Australia during those alleged years.

Fortunately on those occasions they were seaworthy enough to be turned around by our Navy and news of their existence was not reported by the media.

"The other thing we did, which we did more sotto voce was to tow the boats – I must say this is not something that has generated much publicity recently in Australia – we used to get the Navy not to guide the boats into the Australian shore line what we did was [laughs] we got the navy to tow the boats back to the Indonesian territorial waters, left the boats with enough fuel, food and so on to get to a port in Indonesia – guided them where to go – and them left them.
Obviously monitored them to make sure the boat was safe but disappeared over the horizon. And this worked very effectively, but we did this without any publicity, we didn’t run around boasting that we were doing this because we knew the Indonesian accepted these people back through gritted teeth." - Downer 13/11/2009

This whole exercise has been almost a decade of wasted years at a huge financial cost to the public plus the trashing of our International reputation - all for the sake of immediate political grandstanding to win an election campaign.

Just like it will again.

Wobbles,

"Just for the record and according to Alexander Downers own admission on the ABC, but the Nauru/TPV combination never actually stopped any boats from leaving for our shores."

Rubbish.

Here Downer specifically recommends a return to the Pacific solution to stop the boats.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2010/s2945470.htm

A major part of the problem is the closeness of Christmas Island to
Indonesia.
Belly has suggested that offshore processing is now illegal.
I don't think this could refer to Australian territories.
Cocas Keeling is further away from Indonesia and might add some
deterrent.
Ultimately there is no solution other than towing them back.
That would stop the trade dead in its tracks.

There is no reason not to expect such as the ships that took illegal
immigrants from Sri Lanka to Canada. About 800 on each if I remember correctly.
Will we wait until they dock in Fremantle ?

A Referendum on the whole question might be interesting.

It doesn't matter how much the right wing/nuts want to rub their little hands together and call it a victory, Australia as a whole looses. This would have to be the darkest days in labor's history, but even as we all speak....our own people are out of work ( BHP pushing its weight around by what I call it, BLACK MAILING THE COUNTRY as the real chess play ( its Big Business, and that's the underground Gov ) plays out....right under our noises. This is their way of throwing a tantrum, and in stead of the a lolly, its the CARBON TAX.

SO.....holding the country to ransom! what a cheep trick....and 1500 BHP works later, good hard working men loose the lot.

Hang your heads in shame BLUESCOPE!

Well....if the big guys can play dirty, how about all Australians go off work for a 30 days.... nation wide strike....but I forgot, Australians don't back each others play.

The rich/powerful win again. well NO surprise there, is it.

Do you know how to hurt rich people? turn them into poor people:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjDbJQKDXCY

Hey...here's a nice little trick....lets go over and rip off some desperate third world people.....that will fix everything.

Scum.

Cactus

Hasbeen...

I totally agree with your summation of the High Court. And on this issue, it almost seems prima facie,that they've usurped the authority of the Govt.

I do realize that's not the case. They've simply examined the Act, in order to determine Australia's obligations pursuant to that Act, made a judgement (6 to 1) after interpreting it's true intent. And subsequently found against the Govt.

However, it could also be viewed by some, and a question put - who does run the country ? The High Court of Australia, or the Parliament ? What I'm trying to say (rather badly I suspect), it's the 'perception' of this outcome that worries me. NOT the issue before it.

Belly">>Yet if the independents walked across the floor in two weeks?
He too would lead a government, that had to try to handle 9 green senators and two hight court judges who?
Told us, the 8o% we have no say.<<

Belly the senate is as it is but if the Libs get the numbers then it will go to lower house election, they would not persist with a lower house on a knife edge.

Would anyone be surprised if we later learn that the notably corrupt multinational SERCO was colluding with people smugglers?
I wouldn't, this isn't a "Humanitarian" program it's a for profit migration racket from top to bottom.
In the event that community processing was implemented I wonder what breaking the SERCO contracts would cost us?

*Until then, both Labor and the LNP are trolling the depths of moral responsibility.*

Ah, how easy it is to pontificate from the cheap seats!

I heard an interesting radio discussion today, where a Hazara Afghan
who arrived here 10 years ago, told his story. According to him,
tribal and religious conflict remains in Afghanistan, Hazaras
are being persecuted for both, being Shia rather then Sunni and
Hazaras, rather then Pashtuns. They make up around 10% of the
population and are looking for a place to go.

According to our "moral responsibility", according to the Geneva
Convention, we'd really have to take the lot. Thats around
2 million, just from Afghanistan.

Perhaps its time to review the Geneva Convention. Its 60 years out
of date and the fortune which we are spending, to pretend to comply
with it is a headache for taxpayers as well as both parties.

It would be wonderful if just for once, both major parties could
work together on this, for its not a problem that is about to go
away.

Its not often I hand out gold medals, but Yabbies post wins it. Unemployment is getting worse, overpopulation as far as the point yabbies handed out, is going to be our curse, as more and more hard-working Australians get neglected. We ARE FULL! chances are when 2 million plus refo's leave there own sinking ship, this country will be broke.

Change the system!, before its to late.

23 million and counting, and some are wondering where your Son's and Daughters are going to make a living......

Wake up Australia! and stop being so stupid.

Its the dole line....that's where your childrens futures are already at.

She'll be right mate!.......

No it wont.

Like I always say, have a nice day.

cactus.

Things should get interesting now as the U.N. has declined to become involved in setting up centres in either PNG or Nauru.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-01/unhcr-will-not-get-involved-in-png-nauru-solutions/2867152

Cactus! congratulations on both posts.
The simple truth is this, Gillard, while in my view a failure, can not be blamed for a courts ruling.
Or for being unhappy with it, Australia is unhappy with it.
This morning a poll said 10% favored on shore processing,57% said send them all home.
If only but not possible.
Bazz, this morning has the UNHCR saying it, as a result of this ruling, will have nothing to do with any offshore process.
Here like it or not are the truths.
People smugglers and those questionable refugees, who can pay to break ranks with those long term refugees in Malaysia are the winners.
Most Australians want them stopped.
ONLY commitment from both major party's TOGETHER PUTTING A LAW/PLAN in place.
Circumvent the greens and independents.
And stop a thousand boats coming hundreds drowning, and our hight court sponsoring every arrival and every death.

Sung Wu said;
who does run the country ? The High Court of Australia, or the Parliament ?

It is not the parliament's action that the court judged but the
government's action.
This where the separation of powers gets into the act.
Parliament, Government, Courts.
It is this separation that gives the public protection from illegal
government actions.

at the risk of repeating myself, again and again, at what point do we say, enough is enough!

joy of malborn
you got it in one

the private prison lobby is making a motza from these boat people
[its not the 'people smugglers'' juliar
its the industry lobby]

as well as the do gooder industry..loving the funds
or rather more spending all that lovely funding

much like the medical lobby
legal drug merchants..gets their govt largess

much like the anti smoking brigade lobby
[who because you listend to them...and no doudt verbal advice from the atourny general..will send all you toobacco haters broke..paying the industry their compensation]

of course we smokers stuck in the wilderness
will still be paying the many new taxes
and the 180 enquiries will still be doing their inquiry..[ie listing to the various industry lobbies]..and the miners will still be getting away with no new taxes

i will be glad when my pre paid internet expires
and my lone voice in the wilderness goes silent

im sick of giving advice
to those too ignorant to hear

december[when my dodo pre paid expires]
cant come soon enough

i wont have to listen to my conscience
or the media spin/ccccrap any more

free at last free at last
thank god in december i will be free of you lot at last

Poirot,

If you actually listen to the interview or read the article, the UNHCR indicated that it is not inclined to get involved, as it did not get involved in setting up Nauru previously, but did not decline to get involved in the assessments.

The issue is now whether the labor caucus has the guts to turf out Gillard, and whether the independents have the guts to admit they made a huge mistake saddling Australia with an incompetent government.

SM,

Whichever way you try to spin it the UNHCR has obviously taken the time to release a statement to the effect that it is not inclined to become involved in the setting-up of these various centres of incarceration. I would take that sort of action as tacit disapproval of off-shore schemes....wouldn't you?

Shadow Minister,

It's not "rubbish".
His admission was made on Radio National on November 13th, 2009.

There is a difference between stopping boats from arriving at this end by turning them around, and making the inference that they were stopped from ever leaving from the other end.

That’s like saying you stopped drunken behaviour because you stopped drunks drinking in your pub, by leading them into the pub next door

Two websites that may be of interest
on this topic:

http://newmatilda.com/2011/08/31/thats-it-malaysia-solution

And -

http://newmatilda.com/2011/09/01/not-judicial-activism

Bazz/ Rechtub open your mind fellas.
Having looked,at the views from both sides, it is clear.
Truly clear, both sides thought it would get up.
It may still.
Now believe me, it still can get up, but it was the very same Law in place under John Howard.
It truly was, a few, lawyers won, Australia lost.
But it is true, Australians will have to see both sides combine or be made a laughing stock, by smugglers and cashed up refugees, jumping the Que in front of others.
Do not be blinded by the Motherhood statements of the left/greens political party's exist to serve majority's.

i wasnt going to get involved in this issue again
juliar accepted a few pints..but not the whole 'sceme'

thing is IF they are 'in danger'
make them honoury aussie...give them id
give them a 'special pasport..using their proper birth/nationality details...a mobile phone..and a credit card..with a few hundred dollars each on it

[then send them back home
in exile..from ozzzz]

we moniter them...and have nornmal consular assistances
but essentially..send them back home where they came from
MAKING SURE THEY ARE SAFE.

once people realise they only go home
they will stop comming..[lets face it if your after a free lunch here
isnt running way from possable danger]..

find a way to SAFLY return them home
problem fixed

but there are SO MANY MAKING GOOD CASH from serving them
who lobby for them...[and thus treat them as a cashcow..to suck at the public teat]

i really dont see what the problem is
except we are locking them up in PRIVATE resorts
then setting them up in housing jobs..with a 'protecter'
doing it for a job..[thus using their wiles to lobby for they cash cow]

i note there is no fuss re the others
[to wit the recent fire in slack creek..[ie the tongans]
of which there are 20,000 that have resettled into logan city

how the heck 20,000 tongans
came here without any fuss is amazing
why the fuss now with a few thousand muslims?

i rekon we stop welcomming them..let them land where they chose
only if they break our laws does it become our problem..

so if they come..they better be ready to work
better be ready to look after themselves and follow the rules

or else go back to go

but why the heck is OUR sas in libia[for 2 weeks so far]

but why am i telling juliar the quick fix is set the law
then get right into it overnight..[just like i got the darn new tax]

but who gives a darn about smokers
they got less rights than boat people
if someone wasnt paid big bucks to welcome them
if they knew there was no 'easy money'..things might change

but poly-tics...love playiong destractive games
anythjing is better than having a discussion about taxing miners..or c02..

[so much for wearing out her shoes
more like swearing out her bum or tongue leather]..

why bailout fools
who are only there to serve special adgenda's..
of the moneyed elites..bah

Yes Yabbie, instead of reviewing the UNHCR treaty we should withdraw
from it. It is restricting common sense policies.
As far as Nauru is concerned, I think the establishment there was
staffed and operated by immigration staff, or contractors. If so then
I don't think the high court ruling would prevent that.

We should impose a blockade on the Indonesian
coast and turn back the boats. A chain of patrol boats outside
Indonesian waters should be able to pick up a high percentage of the
wooden fishing boats.

We can then expect that the smugglers will look to maintaining their
business by buying larger ships. Such large ships would be hard to hide
in the coastal ports and pressure could then be placed on the Indonesians
to prevent their sailing.
Larger ships are a natural business development and could ultimately
arrive with several ships in Sydney Cove, probably on 26th January.

Bazz,

"We should impose a blockade on the Indonesian coast and turn back the boats. A chain of patrol boats outside Indonesian waters should be able to pick up a high percentage of the wooden fishing boats."

Just how do you propose to "blockade the Indonesian coast"?...and I'm sure that would go down a treat in Jakarta...not to mention the cost of such an undertaking. And meanwhile all the over-stayers will still be jetting into Australia.

Perhaps instead we should invest in really big roll of refugee-proof cling-wrap and hermetically seal ourselves away....that idea has about as much merit as anything you've suggested.

These illegals are getting here by corruption and bribery, then taking advantage of our softness and easy going nature. The shonks are gate crashing our country and it is high time we stood up and said 'no more'. It sickens me that we spend $20 million a year giving these con artists legal aid and advice.

If we have to, by all means withdraw from the UNHCR but deny them what they want and they will stop coming. No more permanent residence for illegal arrivals. Make them wait 10 years before processing, like in Africa. Absolutely no family reunion for illegal arrivals. It will not matter a fig where we process them if we adopt the above, and deny them legal aid and deny access to the 'bleeding hearts'

Sadly our government has not the balls to do this.

IF tomorrow
Labor lost the support of the independents
Abbott would be prime minister, he if it was possible would stop the boats.
WHY? Australia wants them stopped, enough votes can be won or lost on that wish to change government.
The bring them in mob? never ever can win an election they defie majority view here.
ONLY stopping the boats will do.
IF both party's legislate to serve the majority it will happen.

Sadly Belly as Tony Abbot did actually conspire with one of the independents to let the refugees in, as an attempt to bribe him into changing sides- I fear that many senior members in both houses need to be booted out (preferably without a pension) and replaced with people who take the people's will on this issue seriously- as opposed to a point-scoring exercise they have no intention of doing properly.
Abbot merely postures on it but is happy to secretly sink it, and Gillard introduced an extremely expensive alternative to take even MORE arrivals in- these ones merely satisfying Malaysia's migration standards. I hope she at least remembered to cancel the entire deal where we would have been landed with the few thousand intake Malaysia was going to send to us.

I think as Mise said, a referendum on the issue WOULD be interesting (and would at last put this issue to bed and allow the government to focus on other issues).

story-e6frgd0x-1226128419421
This link, to this days Australian, and a Paul Kelly editorial about that court ruling is a challenge.
It is no easy read for any side.
But it, better than any comment I have seen tells it like it truly is.
I recommend it, to every one, but only if you intend to take the whole story on board.
This is the once persona of this paper.
For what ever reason, it is a return to honest comment, I have fears it will not continue.
Let us remember, Abbott's need to use issues such as this as a stick to flog his opponents is a sad reflection on him.

@ Poirot,

<< Perhaps instead we should invest in really big roll of refugee-proof cling-wrap and hermetically seal ourselves away....that idea has about as much merit as anything you've suggested.>>

Nah! too expensive –here’s a better solution.
How about we buy a bonsai plant for each refugee advocate.

Everyday they could water their plant , talk to their plant, snip a little here and there and sublimate away all their sappy sentiments .

Thereafter, they would have no time to coach illegal’s on how to beat the system. And no time to provide poor-fellow-refugee sound bites for the ABC & SBS to hype.

And as a added bonus, we’d probably get a whole heap of carbon credits on account of all the new trees.

Julia Gillard would best be renamed "Madame Clap", since she is like a dose of syphilis. It's the last thing you want; once you've got it, you can't get rid of it; it can't be cured no matter how much medicine you take; it will eventually drive you insane, and you'll die a slow, painful, and disgusting death. This is the fate that is now overtaking Australia.

Don't forget, Julia is an immigrant herself.
Notice the number of vocal Lefties and "Respectable" conservatives with foreign accents who are all for flooding the country with every stray third world moppet they can scoop up?
I'm in the construction business,the main gripe you hear bout the useless, corrupt unions is "They're all Pommies".
Every time I hear Doug Cameron or Matthias Corman start to rev up the old Universalist pipe organ I want to retch, our biggest immigration problem seems to be immigrants from Europe and the UK who end up in public office.
Send 'em back where they came from!

> Notice the number of vocal Lefties and "Respectable" conservatives with foreign accents who are all for flooding the country with every stray third world moppet they can scoop up? ... Send 'em back where they came from!

The latest being Ban Ki-Moon, who encourages us to be "world leaders" in humanitarianism towards illegal immigrants. Oh, the patronizing stench of it, which Gillard and most other Ozzies will lap up as they "proudly" puff out their porn-inspired clean-shaven chests. Just for a change, let's be world laggards and do as you suggest - send the b...s back where they came from.

> our biggest immigration problem seems to be immigrants from Europe and the UK who end up in public office.

I'll go you one better. From http:52midnight.com/files/a-Foreign_ownership_in_Australia.html:

"On 1st December 1997, Foreign Minister Alexander Downer announced to the Canberra Press Club that Australia too was to be globalized, ... 'Let me put this clearly; globalization is an irreversable trend. It is happening. And it is good for all Australians, the region, and the world ... Whether people fear globalization or not, they cannot escape it.'"

OK, the world's now had a decade of corporate globalization, and it's proved an absolute disaster for all except the TNCs, international financiers and other criminals, and every bank that's "too big to fail", all of whom are now immensely wealthier. I'd say it's time to declare it a failed experiment, close the gates, and try a decade of protectionism and doing things our way. Couldn't possibly be any worse.

And bring back the pillory and the lash for all poiticians who lie or deceive the parliament.

Beelzebub,
Ever tried to argue with an Anti globalist about immigration?
A multilateral anti immigration stance from all those opposed to the Globalist/Capitalist Hegemony would severely wound the beast,
Immigration is central to the globalist's model of permanent instability through ethnic conflict and scarcity.
Anti globalists, despite their pretensions invariably fall into one camp, Communism.
What is the goal of the globalists?
Communism, world government.
All "Leftists" and "Respectable" conservatives support unrestricted immigration because they support Globalism/Communism.
Commies to the Left, Commies to the right.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/offshore-processing-ruled-out-minister/story-fn7x8me2-1226129064024
The link in my last post did not work.
But is still viewable in yesterdays Australian.
If only both sides of politics acted as that link says.
This link above if true, I think it has been made so by the hight court, changes nothing.
Tony Abbott, Julia Gillard, the two leaders Australians do not want.
Both about tenth on the list in fact.
Must consider this.
Both without Abbott winning then calling and winning a Double Dissolution election can only act together.
This very day both must put politics aside and between both sides let their experts put together a new law.
If the will of majority, middle Australia, is to be circumvented by the hight court and refugee advocates, you can forget multi culturism from here on.
STOP the BOATS

Belly,
Could you please expand on "forget multiculturalism"?
I'm wondering where others see multiculturalism going in the 21st century, Third World migration into our countries, particularly of Muslims has killed it IMO.
BTW,a lot of legal migrants and second generation non White Australians HATE refugees. You could say that White Australians are intolerant of refugees but in smoko room discussions I've heard a lot of non Whites saying things like "Why don't they just sink a few boats?" and "These Parasites get everything and we got nothing when we came here".

> Immigration is central to the globalist's model of permanent instability through ethnic conflict and scarcity.

This says a very great deal that is dismissed by mainstream media as "conspiracy theory". The GFC WAS a conspiracy - deals done in secret by the wealthy and powerful - and we now have more than enough evidence that the corporate globalization agenda is one of world domination through social and economic coercion. The question is what can be done about it. Not only has the democratic process been fatally compromised, but the majority of sheeple still accept the deceptions of the globalists. On this basis, any effective action must violate democratic principles - i.e. it must be done against the will of the majority, even though it would ultimately redound to their benefit.

> Commies to the Left, Commies to the right.

Yes, the beauty of the scheme. Makes no difference for whom you vote. They've got their social psychology down pat, especially when it comes to "problem, reaction, solution". Ultimately, the awakened in each nation will need to find reasons and courage to act, and the self-discipline and coordination needed to define and implement an agenda. Problem is, when the likes of Bob Katter are your best bet, what chance is there of success?

> This very day both must put politics aside and between both sides let their experts put together a new law.

I doubt that the current crop of pollies has the intelligence and selflessness so to act in the best interests of the nation.

> I'm wondering where others see multiculturalism going in the 21st century, Third World migration into our countries, particularly of Muslims has killed it IMO.

The simple fact is that mixing an acid and an alkali doesn't yield a product with the properties of both - instead they destroy each other. Same with different human cultures - they cannot be amalgamated without destroying their values and benefits. Maybe a spot of sharia law applied to pollies would convince them of this. What's the penalty for lying - cut out their tongues?

Interesting posts on this thread. A time machine -
stepping back in time. A history
lesson learned at school of - the generations that
as kids were taught that this country's survival depended on
putting a wall between themselves and the "hordes" to the
North.

These were the generations -
who took for granted then, that
everyone up there wanted to come down here. I would have
thought that there'd be very few still left alive.
However it seems that some people have been taught well.
Many still are -
of the generation who can see boat people as the advance of
unimaginable numbers... "Let even a few arrive and,
God knows, Australia could end up looking like the people on
Christmas Island."

But who can blame people when
Australia's leaders continue to make political hay from
asylum seekers.

It's amazing that the High Court has
found the Malaysian Solution "illegal." Yet those same judges
found the Nauru Solution legal (back then). Now, they have
been forced to also find - Nauru "illegal."
What a conundrum!

And it turns out
that the "boats," did NOT stop coming under My Howard. The navy
turned them back - but nobody let the media know. (Big secret
at the time - wonder why?).

The boats will keep coming. And until we're willing to face our
fears, we'll continue to deal with them in a way that's
- an expensive national farce.

We can only hope now that both parties will join in trying
to solve this complex problem - and come up with a
solution that will be acceptable to all.

Lexi, sweet lady that you are, you continue to show a large naivety
about human behaviour.

Last time I checked, about a million people a year apply to come
and live in Australia, the vast majority are rejected and accept
that rejection. Yet we know that globally, people seek a better
life and are prepared to risk their lives to achieve that. The
easier it is to achieve, the more will take that decision. America
and Europe do in fact face hundreds of thousands of people a year,
all trying to get to Europe from places like Africa and Mexico.

If you think that Australia is somehow immune to this fundamental
of human behaviour, you continue to live in dreamland.

What Australia's laws should reflect, is what we are actually
prepared to do, in the real world.

Last time I checked, Australia is prepared to accept around 15'000
refugees a year. That is what our laws should reflect. If we
don't agree with the terms of the Geneva Convention as is stands,
then we should alter the terms by which we agree to abide by the
Convention and not pretend otherwise, which is where all the problems
arise.

According to the Geneva Convention, we would have to accept virtually
the whole Afghani Hazara population of a couple of million as refugees.
That is just from Afghanistan, let alone refugees from other
countries.

If you have no problem with accepting a couple of million Hazaras
and all the rest, then that is fine. If you don't, then if you
have a logical bone in your body, you should support changing the
law to what we actually accept as a country of citizens, who in the
end should decide who lives here.

The problem which we face is this contradiction in the law between
what we accept and what we have signed up to. It needs to be
clarified legally, so that we all know where we stand.

Lexi,
There's one reason and one reason only why Third Worlders want to come here, White people.
The best chance a third world child has for survival is freedom of association with White people because other Brown people will literally walk over them or worse, enslave or abuse them.
Do you honestly think that people living in Quetta or Kinshasa ask themselves "I wonder why my cousin who lives in Sydney is doing better than I am?".
This "Problem" only applies to White people's living space, Brown people just send refugees away, or worse.
C'mon, you know very well what would happen to those starving Somalis who are flooding into neighbouring countries if there were no White people there to protect and feed them.
All these "values" are exclusive to White people, "Human Rights" are a White invention which work well in our societies but White values shouldn't be applied to all other races.
All that has to be done to stop the flow of Asylum Seekers is to stop promoting these false, universalist ideas of "Rights and responsibilities".
Egalitarianism is not only an outdated and moribund idea it's downright toxic in that it's been perverted into a one way filter, White countries and ONLY White countries are to fill up with Brown people.
Only politicians in White countries support it and only White children suffer because of it.
Do you hold the same scenario true for White children?
Are White children better off, safer and more prosperous when surrounded by Brown people? Is Sunshine Secondary college safer than Carey Grammar?
You know the answer, this is why White "refugee advocates", activist lawyers and urban trendies don't send their kids to school with the Sudanese or Afghan kids, they invariably choose private or elite government schools for their kids.
At least I'm no hypocrite, I deliberately chose an elite school for my kids so that they wouldn't have to deal with Polynesian gangs, or demented Afghan and Sudanese kids who are so addled by what they've lived through that they can't tell right from wrong.

Lexi,

All those in the ALP are trying to say that the pacific solution did not work.

In Nov 2007 there were 4 people in detention and 0 children, and the number of boats was about 3 p.a.

Only 43% of those detained in Nauru were settled in Australia.

Today we have more than 5000 in detention with about 1000 children, and more than a boat a week. If the pacific solution didn't work, Labor's policy must be an abject failure.

Yabby and I often agree, this is such a subject.
I wish each of us, to confront them selves and their words used in this thread and others on related subjects.
First confront the threads title, in retrospect it is just plain silly.
Yes East Timor came from not doing the home work.
Maybe pride stopped Nauru.
But beyond belief our hight Court scuttled this, it may well have worked.
Jay of Melbourne, in answer to you, I speak of Muslim Migration, every other form of MC has been a success.
Here, like it or not, we are racist, but with a difference, most will not like it But Australians are DISTURBED by Muslim separatism, Insistence on changes to our culture, generally hate me if you must, unwanted.
I am not saying stop Muslim Migration, but if we do not stop the boats FOREVER, we plant the thought FOREVER Australians right left and center have no say.
The Muslim Community, if it stands against the intrusions we see weekly trying to stop me in my country from being me, can halt the growing troubles.

Dear Jay and others,

I don't pretend to have all the answers, however, I
take people as I find them. I don't break them up
into groups according to their colour, race,
religion, et cetera - because I've learned over
my short time on this earth that rotten sods come
in a variety of colours and backgrounds and they're
really not confined to any one particular group.

I find it hard to understand people's thoughts
along the lines that - "there is a grave risk
that asylum seekers might escape injustice and
oppression in Afghanistan or Sri Lanka, travel
thousands of miles in a leaky boat on the open ocean
and legally claim refugee status in this country under
a 60 year International Treaty that Australia is a
signatory to, and won't even get locked up!"

Gee Whiz!

It's up to our government to sift
through the asylum seekers, do the security checks
and the health checks, and make assessments as to who
is eligible for settlement in this country
and who is not. I certainly don't want to
buy into the political hay that Australia's leaders
continue to make from the suffering of asylum seekers.

I can only hope that a solution will eventually be found
that won't be morally bankrupt. We complain about
asylum seekers - yet their numbers are so small in
comparison to other countries - (like Greece, and Spain),
who don't seem to have a problem in dealing with much
larger numbers of people - while we are frightened of a
piddly few.

Dear Yabby,

My apologies, I only now noticed your post
to me. We complain about the "boat people,"
(a few hundred), while thousands arrive by
plane every day and they are as much of a problem
of processing as the others. And yet, nobody
makes any issue of it. Because it is not
politically beneficial to those who seek power.

I agree with you that perhaps the pollies
should stop pretending to be signatories to
something in which they no longer believe -
and simply admit it.

As long as world problems exist - there will always
be refugees who will take any opportunity to seek a
better life. So why not accept them on shore - process
them, and those that prove to be suitable settlers
for this country, give them residential status.
And, send the others back. This would save millions of
dollars for the Australian Government. It is only
logical and many have been saying this for years.
Except the pollies don't want to hear it.

We have migrations in the natural kingdom that cross
our shores on a regular basis and we've learned to
live with them - so how different are humans?
We should have more sympathy for them - after all
we are a Christian nation - or at least that is
our heritage - especially when some question - our
"Australian values."

Lexi, I'll make the point again. We should express in legislation
what we are prepared to accept. Australia cannot save the world.

If you agree to that then give me the number per year that you
think we should accept. Do you have no upper limits?

Now no wishy washy answer please :) Give me your number, annually.

Lexi.
It's normal for you to hold your opinions because, unless I'm way wide of the mark you're an ethnic White Australian, you hold White views.
Charity is one thing, that's fine, it's admirable, if people like you were committed to sponsoring and supporting individual refugees I wouldn't be too concerned.
However, the influx of Third World migrants is not in the hands of the "people" it's in the hands of politicians and sadly they are traitors almost to a man, they may look like you and I but they have no loyalty to us.
Their agenda is not charity it's domination, global hegemony and advancement of the interests of the Elite money power.
The modus operandi of the Elite money power is permanent instability through ethnic conflict and scarcity.
I can't explain everything here, there are enough of us who are awake to the Elites posting on the site that you'll eventually come to think the way we do.
Now consider this, if you have traumatised and desperate people arriving here who are totally dependant upon the government, who will do anything to stay...and the government is made up of people who have no loyalty to you and I does that not cause you to wonder at the potential of a such a body of immigrants?
The government literally has the power of life or death over these people.
For example, the Iraqi "translators" who were brought here after they'd served their purpose and betrayed their countrymen, or so called "moderate" Muslims who rat out their fellow congregants to ASIO.
All I see in "refugees" are a group potentially hostile to the interests of my children NOT in and of themselves but because they are beholden unto, and therefore loyal to an Elite who want to Wipe my ethnicity from the face of the earth.
You seem like a kind and genuine person Lexi but there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy.

> All these "values" are exclusive to White people, "Human Rights" are a White invention which work well in our societies ...

The White races have developed unique codes of ethics and social governance that have promoted them to a zenith of evolutionary achievement. All who truly understand this certainly want to share its benefits with others, but not by imposing them; as always each much adapt alien ideas to his own needs, and be educated as to how if so required. What cannot be allowed is for them to inundate our robust but vulnerable societies with a flood of uneducated tribal peasants, many severely traumatized by illegal invasions of their homelands by the evil aspects of our own nations. True sympathy does not consist in allowing our own invaluable inheritance to be destroyed in an emotive anguish of 'mea culpa'.

> I am not saying stop Muslim Migration, but if we do not stop the boats FOREVER, we plant the thought FOREVER Australians right left and center have no say.

The immediate challenge we face is how to do this in spite of the abject and traitorious failures of those who have corrupted our European social inheritance to serve their own interests. We have as yet failed to adapt this inheritance our unique modern needs.

> We complain about asylum seekers - yet their numbers are so small in comparison to other countries - (like Greece, and Spain), who don't seem to have a problem in dealing with much larger numbers of people - while we are frightened of a piddly few.

This demonstrates a profound and dangerous ignorance. Greece, Spain, and the like are nominally Christian. Muslims and Christians have not only long been cultural and political enemies, but hold entirely incompatible values. It's not a question of who's right or wrong - they simply can't be mixed without animosity and real risk of violence and bloodshed. And if you're suggesting that Musim immigration over there is not a problem, you're simply ignorant. Time to pull your head out of the sand, Lexi.

> Their agenda is not charity it's domination, global hegemony and advancement of the interests of the Elite money power.

Well said, Jay. It's a blessed relief that more and more are waking up to this.

> I can't explain everything here, there are enough of us who are awake to the Elites posting on the site that you'll eventually come to think the way we do.

I'd recommend the following for any thoughtful and intelligent person wanting to keep abreast of current affairs:

http://globalresearch.ca

This is the website of a Canadian Professor of Economics, and offers a plethora of insightful, well-written articles by qualified and respected academics and researchers.

http://blacklistednews.com

One of the best news amalgamation sites presenting an annotated list of headlines and links to the respective articles.

http://whatreallyhappened.com

Another good summary site with a stronger focus on video material.

http://maxkeiser.com/

Max Keiser is a former Wall Street "Master of the Universe" who's gone feral. He's regularly featured on TV on RT.com and plays to a popular audience, but he's good entertainment and knows his stuff.

Poirot:"You see, at the moment I can't stomach Australian politics at all. I've gone from being a political animal to someone who can't bear to watch any of them on TV - so repelled am I by the complete dearth of wisdom and virtue (not a skerick)."

That sums up my view perfectly. Howard, followed by the ALP, has managed to comprehensively degrade the Australian body politic to the point that I simply am not interested. It's worse than the sort of rubbish that used to go on at Student Union elections. I guess that's what happens when old Student union gender/class warriors get old - they certainly don't grow up.

I post this not to defend blind bigotry, some always comes to such threads.
Not to, as the threads title dos, whip up support for one party.
Questions need answering.
How many boat people make it on shore to stay from our offshore processing.
How many get productive jobs
How many do not, for how long.
How much does processing cost us
What is the social welfare bill annually.
For reasons of world population growth, NOTHING ELSE what is the birth rate of these people compared to ours.
If we doubled our refugee intake, from other country's.
Took not one from boats.
Is it true we would save billions of dollars in doing that?
Why am I racist for saying STOP THE BOATS close the camps except for illegals found in this country
DONATE the savings to food aid.
Last, gee it should be FIRST! how many boats will come IF IT IS KNOWN THEY WILL STAY!
I remain a racist xenophobic, or just maybe? a concerned level headed person, you tell me.

Every point made here points up the necessity of stopping the boats
getting anywhere near Australia.
The police forces do not have "Middle East" and "Asian" squads just for fun.
We are having wild shootouts in the moslem suburbs of Sydney literally
every day and the people involved "know nuffing", "saw nuffing".
The police are complaining of a lack of co-operation from them.
Indeed they suffer from being hindered by the local residents.

What we urgently need is a ban on all middle eastern immigration
before we reach the point where the police are faced with armed
insurrection.
If you think it is not approaching that sort of situation ask the
police at Lakemba station which was shot up by a Lebanese motor
rebirthing gang.

Anyone who thinks multiculturalism is a success should come up for
air sometime soon.
What Lexi and others don't seem to understand is that rejects cannot
be returned to "last port of call" is because Indonesia refuses them
entry. Can't say I blame them, but if they are still on an Indonesian
boat I don't think they can refuse under Solas.

How many millions of invaders will we accept before we get the guns out ?

This is one topic that seems to bring such strong reactions
from people. I've had my say on the topic and I will
leave you gentlemen to continue to argue the pros and cons.
The following website may be of interest:

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/editorial/policies-on-boat-arrivals-driven-by-hysteria-20110508-1ee7x.html

As The Age states:

"With many bigger challenges facing Australia
it is shameful that small numbers of vulnerable and
abused asylum seekers inspire the fiercest political
debates."

Cheers.

Ah Lexi, just as I expected from you. A wishy washy feelgood
answer and a refusal to answer the hard question, despite
my specific request. You are so predictable :)

SM "Yet again, an ill considered and researched misadventure by the Labor government will cost the tax payer hundreds of Millions of dollars and achieve exactly nothing."

Nothing new in that SM..... it is the standard pattern of incomptence practiced by Whitlam, Hawke, Keating and Krudd..... before Gizzards came to sit on the "throne" (although I have heard it cakled other things

"Where to from here?"

Back to Liberal National Coalition SM.....

Back to economic competence, Consumer confidence and a growth economy

away from

gross incompetence
airyfairy nation-building schemes
factional infighting
policies disallowed by judges
conflict between the turncoat "independent" supporters who were used to cobble this abortoin of government together
and of course.... Craig Thomson

Dear Yabby,

The subtleties are lost on you aren't they.
Read the website I cited - and you just
may begin to comprehend the point being made.

BTW: I may be a lot of things - but being
predictable - I'm proud to say - isn't one of them!

Lexi,

I read the website you linked. It contains the same arguments that Labor used against the Pacific solution, leading them to shut down the pacific solution and predicting only a small but manageable increase in boat arrivals.

3 years later, that has been shown to be a huge error of judgement, as the boats increased 30 fold, and the number of people in detention swelled from 6 to 6000.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The coalition was right all along.

The Economist has some interesting articles
dealing with politics this week. It covers
the High Court decision regarding the Malaysian
Solution, it covers the complex problem of asylum
seekers, as well as a variety of other subjects,
including the rantings of shock-jocks and others,
against the government. However what is interesting
is what The Economist states by way of summation:

"The Prime Minister cannot be counted out yet.
Her negotiating skills are one of Ms Gillard's
strengths. Since the election the Government has

steered 116 bills through Parliament. The heads of
the National Bank and Westpac, two of Australia's
biggest banks, have supported the carbon tax.
Ms Gillard says she is "determined to push on with
the agenda. She has little left to lose."

It's two more years until the next election.
A great deal can happen in that time - especially
in politics. Anybody notice how much more toned-down
(pardon the pun), Mr Tony Abbott is of late?

John Cleese was interviewed on TV last week, and was asked by Paul Lynham what he thought about the London riots. His reply was interesting; he said it was hard to comment as London was not an English city. He then went on to say there were no English people there. He may be a funny-man, but this was deadly serious. He said that when the native culture disappears into obscurity you have a problem. We're already being faced with demands for sharia law in Australia; there have been open admissions by many Muslims that they regard their personal religious laws and values as superior to our civil laws; they quietly refuse to integrate whilst taking full advantage of Social Security and other taxpayer-funded largesse; and their first loyalties will always and ever be to Allah and their fellow Muslims, as also will be those of their children.

Meanwhile, we have mindless apologists like Lexi, Sarah Hanson-Young, and many others openly defending their rights to undermine our values, our societies, our way of life, and our right to determine our own future based on our inheritance and preferred tradition. Sooner or later we'll either have to contain the traitors in our own ranks, or buy prayer mats, don turbans, and ask Allah's forgiveness for being who we are. Take your pick.

SM,

You should do your research and stop spouting
your party's line. The Pacific Solution was a
disgrace and everyone with any kind of research
and comprehensive skills knows this. Also, the boats
did NOT stop coming as a result of the so called
Pacific Solution. And you should know that.
BTW: Boat arrival numbers in Australia have fluctuated
significantly over the last 30 years in response
to global events. And they will continue to do so.
This is a problem that will continue to perplex us
for some time to come regardless of who's in
government.

Lexi know this, I truly think you are one of our finest posters.
But so very wrong in your thought we only need understanding.
Bazz has it right, twice in my life I lived within the heart of the area now being shot up every night.
10 nights ten fear filled nights.
Then it was a battlers place, Auburn, Gilford, Grandvile, Merrylands, one of my mates lived there.
Paul Hogan,before his face lifts, before he became other than one of the blokes.
I went back often as a unionist, felt unwanted unwelcome and unsafe, not in my country.
Lakemba, once the home of Australian working class, mums sister, struggling to bring 13 kids up.
ABC TV, just the other night.
Woman interview talking outside a Muslim place of worship, thirty nice young Muslim women crowding around happy smiling faces.
One being interviewed, telling of the happiness and feasting the unity of family, a happy wonderful scene?
Not even close!
A matronly lady, seemingly on Gard making sure the younger one spoke only as expected looked with PURE CONTEMPT at the make up and appearance of the TV woman.
Ugliness in our country on display, BECAUSE WE HAVE OUR OWN CULTURE.
My time there was spent with mates, from Italy Greece and Germany.
We pooled our few dollars had chip buns at the greek cafe or fish and chips at the Italians, we had no reason to dislike any race.

The unbalance and bigotry here, basically based but not all on politics, is just plain wrong.
It is bigotry in my view to over look the shootings, the western Sydney Rapes that continue, that lady outside her place of worship she has tens of hundreds like her who came but for got why.
Abbott, know this, will cooperate with Gillard.
If he, or she, plays politics here, they should face a revolution.
Labor in opposition , is unlikely given its handling to help Abbott pass such a law.
Now is the time.
To take this matter back and act for most Australians
Not one more boat ASAP.
Bob Brown mumbles behind me, intently telling us only the Greens know.
Any attempt to put greens before middle Australia condemns my party to 2 decades in opposition and is the death of the greens.
Forcing the will of 12% ON 88% IS AN ACT OF WAR ON MOST AUSTRALIANS.

The solution is simple, cost effective but neither Labor or the Libs will admit to it.

Assess refugees onshore.

Compared to Europe and the USA, we receive very few refugees - either via boat or even by visa over-stayers. Yet this issue still receives far more money, energy and time than do other problems facing Australia today.

"In the six years since the Tampa crisis in August 2001, Australian taxpayers have spent more than $1 billion to process less than 1,700 asylum seekers in offshore locations, or more than half a million dollars per person.

Most, if not all, of these asylum seekers have paid a substantial personal toll through poor mental and physical health and wellbeing. There have also been detrimental impacts on Australia's democratic and legal system, Australia's regional relationships and the international system of protection of refugees and asylum seekers."

The only success that Labor or the LibNats have had is appealing to the rankest form of prejudice in Australia today.

Bloody disgraceful.

http://www.ajustaustralia.com/informationandresources_researchandpapers.php?act=papers&id=8

lexie...you must see how we collectivly
have made this issue political..

we have 15,000 new imagrants comming here every year[officially]
maybe a few thousand by boats...[we egsamin the boat people]
yet the elites who overstay...who can afford to know the system..are the real unspoken issue.

we have the world in a flux..at the present time
many vile people that exploited their own
now have made australia their safe place from those they hurt

its not a simple topic...[combine this with the 'big australia issue']
both parties have affectivly sold out their trust[the people]
to serve their boy club adgenda[to wit given criminals sanctury]

here we are bringing in those who hurt others without a wimper
as well as bringing in a few victims..no one knows the ratio's
but the problems are clear..[how much is the real..'duel passport holder number']

many clearly have divided loyalties
as well as no real clue to moral standards

i personally feel if you can afford to do the right thing
and pay your way...your welcome...but break the law[your gone]

the solution with this boat people issue is not in putting them on the cheap rental list[but to house them on 'trial'..to go through a test period..to see how they stack up before we give them the 'gold pass'

those who fail the honesty test..need to be treated humainly
be accorded some protection if in danger..but affectivly..to keep their family unit together

thus my proposal..to give them a protective
[not protected]..'status'...give them id

give them a phone[that tracks their wherabouts]
and send them home UNDER GOVT PROTECTION..to sort it out..and maybe in time EARN..a place in this place

we can monitor a penguin...so how hard could it be to track and protect these people who may in reality have a problem

things arnt working dear
not all people KNOW how to be civil..
let alone are ready to become civilised..but we ARE OBLIGATED TO HELP

morally and spiritually
but not so that a private prison lobby
can drum up nice fat govt cash subsidie for jailing them

Ammonite,
I would be willing to gamble on community based processing, no walls nor razor wire, just let them all in.
Things would become so bad in the suburbs that in pretty short order we'd have a new government, the refugee convention would be abandoned and we'd be deporting "refugees" by the planeload.

Lexi,

Now you are spouting the old labor line from 2008 that proved so horribly wrong.

Here are the numbers. (I have chosen the financial years as the policies were changed roughly mid 2008)

Financial year/ boat people arrivals.

98/99 - 921
99/00 - 4175
00/01 - 4137
01/02 - 3039 <- Pacific solution introduced mid way
02/03 - 0
03/04 - 82
04/05 - 0
05/06 - 61
06/07 - 133
07/08 - 25
08/09 - 1033 <- Pacific solution removed at beginning.
09/10 - 5609
10/11 - 4940

I'm sorry, but no one is stupid enough to swallow that the fluctuations were due to periodic fluctuations.

*BTW: I may be a lot of things - but being
predictable - I'm proud to say - isn't one of them!*

Dear Lexi, you certainly are predictable. All wishy washy
and feelgood, no direct answer to a question. It remains the
crux of this debate, even if that goes over your head.

Because of course to answer you would have to think for yourself,
not just quote another URL, as per normal.

Dear Yabby,

You know me so well!

SM,

Try reading up on things. Stay informed.
It helps.

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/bn/sp/boatarrivals.htm

Lexi

Your link to the ABS confirms my previous post regarding number of refugees to Australia compared to the rest of the world.

I am disheartened to hear that Abbott is attempting to, belatedly, work in a bi-partisan effort to change the law to enable continued off-shore processing. No matter the cost in dollars and lives, both our main political parties have lost any moral backbone they may have had.

Shame Abbott cannot work with Labor on urgent issues such as keeping Australian manufacturing viable, transition to clean energy, investing in infrastructure and so much more than a few thousand boat people.

Lexi,

You linked the post I quoted from. Perhaps you should read it too.

Another shooting last night.
Mohammad, known to police was shot after an argument with three men in
one of the moslem suburbs. Police say it was a drug deal gone wrong.
Mohammad is in hospital in a stable condition.

My wife grew up in Lakemba. We had reason to pass though Lakemba &
Wiley Park a while back and she was horrified how the suburb has
deteriorated. It was dirty and the shops were a shambles.

She joked half seriously that it looked like Cairo.

Who will get shot tonight, watch for tomorrows bulletin.

Now, now Bazz, you know the figures on ethnic crime are one of the most highly classified sets of government data,we're not allowed to know who gets up to what. The Victorian Police even went so far as to deny that they kept such figures, they were lying of course and during the "troubles" surrounding Indian "students" they had to admit that they did keep track of "certain groups" and that Indian males and "New Zealanders" (ie Polynesians) were the two main groups they had to deal with.
As it turned out the Indian "Students" (Gujarati and Punjabi criminals and ne'er do wells) were found to have committed far more crime than they were subjected to, notice how since entry requirements have been changed this issue has gone away?
How many convictions of "Racist" assault by Whites on non Whites have been secured? correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it's two in my state, Vic...that's two, ever, in the history of "Hate crimes" legislation.
But in the period, '09-10, the "troubles", Indian Nationals alone were reported by Police to have committed around 250 assaults, around 80 rapes and four murders, not to mention road deaths, traffic accidents, theft, extortion, robbery, white collar crimes and fraud.

SM,

I read the article - that's why I cited it.
However, I read ALL of it - not only the
selected bits that suit your agenda.
Good try!

Jay,

You need to do a bit more research on the
web about attacks on Indian students.
There's several websites with the infromation.
You'd have more credibility if you researched
things before posting. The Age, The Sydney
Morning Herald, have done articles on the subject.
The facts are a bit different to what you're
posting.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/activist-judges-give-mixed-signals-20110905-1ju51.html
An article that I offer as a rebuttal of the threads title, one worth a read.
We all should focus on this, I do not talk in defense of Gillard/Labor but truth.
So very much said against both, is constructed therefore untrue with deliberate intent.
It however is true, those who had no fear in replacing Rudd, act now like frightened mice.

Those who had no fear in deposing Rudd thought that they couldn't lose because they'd have "the women's vote". The women of Australia have proven to be less easily manipulated than those cynics thought.

They act like frightened mice because they have nothing to offer. As Orwell put it so suucinctly:"These new movements, of course, grew out of the old ones and tended to keep their names and pay lip-service to their ideology. But the purpose of all of them was to arrest progress and freeze history at a chosen moment. The familiar pendulum swing was to happen once more, and then stop."

Only it turns out that they didn;t know as much as they thought they did. Further, they have abandoned the roots of Labor in favor of trying to pander to a group that can never be satisfied - middle class women. What a bunch of tools.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/extremists-on-all-sides-exploit-taboos-20110905-1ju96.html
My link here will let some find me a racist/xenophobe/mud throwing for introducing such in to this thread.
Look deeper, if you do you will find too a foundation for the anti boat people feeling.
Compare it, look truly, at why while we saw much pain in the post Asian war arrivals it did not reach this level.
Throw those names at me, but how many of us, here in print dare not express truly held views for fear of upsetting?
How many of these boat people will one day make demands on us?
I Doubt, true, My viewing any religion, except this one [those views are the same but not one would want me dead but this one] can be spoken aloud in my country's streets.
So here is my opinion of the Church I was born into, It exists for power, it uses a promise that it can protect ,that I for being its follower am better than others and is primitive unwanted left over from the middle ages.
Even then I censored myself, and truly, my Church is no better or worse than any other a home for primitive priests who while practicing a cult are often pedophiles.

Lexi,

If you have read the link then you can confirm my figures.

A quick run through an correlation program gives a greater than 95% correlation which means that it is extremely unlikely that the pacific solution was not responsible for the majority of the change.

Given also that there were no other world events occurring at the same time to trigger a sudden reduction and increase of refugees, I would say that the myth that the pacific solution did not work is well and truly busted.

Today's shooting report:
Last night four men forced entry into a home unit at Arncliffe.
Shots were fired, further details later.

Okay folks - Standby.....

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/yoursay/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/abbotts_offer_has_a_sinister_motive/
And this mornings last link to this complex issue.
Another could have been posted, one saying Abbott now intends not to let the Malaysian solution be part of his offer.
The next election will be won by the conservatives.
But even now, it is unlikely it will be held earlier than mid next year.
By then, both party's may well have new leadership.
It is a distinct possibility.
The margin of victory may be reduced, no hung Parliament but not likely Conservatives will control the senate, before a future double dissolution.
So now, right now, is the best time to not use this issue as a weapon, but act on behalf of both party's ideals and Australians wishes.
New leadership? one goes the other may follow.

> IF tomorrow Labor lost the support of the independents Abbott would be prime minister, he if it was possible would stop the boats.

Yep, but poor old Jugears would only last six months before he's stabbed in the back and falls off his bike. The Member for Goldman Sachs would then proudly step forward, and Oz would at last be ruled by the international banks, both covertly and overtly. Mission Accomplished!

Only a conspiracy theory, of course. We all know how honest, morally infrangible and forth-coming our Honourable Members are.

SM I read your stats on arrivals and agree... it is not a function of season swings but remember the left will always look for anything to wriggle out from under

and doubtless in maybe less than a year we will have a Liberal/National Coalition

Listening to the Radio this morning I hear there is a lack of majority to pass legislation

So bring it all on

the Real goal is to return government to those who know how and away form the incokmpetents of Gizzrds, Krudd and co

One can smell the sweet fresh air of change coming .....

Along with the smoke of the funeral pyre of green / labor socialism

Ah, yes, the usual BS.
Then there's the MS (More of the Same),
and last but not least, there's the PhD,
(Pilled Higher and Deeper).

Something's in the air allright -
and it's not fresh.

Lexi truth honesty and facts will have no effect on the gentleman.
I offer you this.
In 3 years, without doubt, the incoming conservative government, built on Abbott not policy's, will be despised.
Then look back, at the ramblings here, only of some.
Many balanced conservative posters exist.
Col will never be one of those.
In some, looking for understanding, is like searching in a rubbish bin for a Rolls Royce.

Belly,

Tony Abbott has a sinister motive? I think the motives in the link you posted are clear, and the author is simply stating the obvious. For the coalition it is a win win.

If Juliar takes TA's offer it makes her look weak and the coalition in charge of the agenda. It also clears the way for the coalition to restore the Pacific solution without any inconvenient high court judgements. The added bonus is stripping Labor of left wind support without gaining any support from the centre.

If Juliar refuses, and the boats keep coming, in the voter's eyes she will have clearly acted against Australia's interest, given that it is almost universally accepted that the present labor policy is the pull factor behind the surge in boat arrivals.

I believe that the first option is the least politically lethal, as it removes one of the main labor failings off the table.

Back to topic.
Can anyone explain to me how White children will be safer and better off living with people from the Third World?
I'll put forward my usual question, what proportion of the Australian population should be White and what steps would people take to make sure that their preferred racial quotas are enforced?

Lexi,
All we get from the Refugee sympathisers is BS and MS about "international obligations", Japan is a signatory to both the '51 and '67 conventions, how many refugees do they take?
How will my children be safer and more prosperous living among Third Worlders?

The issue of the overwhelmingly negative effects of Third world migration is actually obscured by the realtively insignificant problem with boat people.
I'm in the building game, I was quoting to plaster a house the other day and the architect told me that Chinese crews are doing the same job for about a Third of the price.
Now I don't compete with other tradesmen, I don't undercut or haggle just to get jobs so, really it's no skin off my nose if someone's charging a lot less, if I can't get my $500 a day I'd rather stay home.
However, the Chinese don't compete against each other, you might get five quotes, one from me at a higher price and four at the same low price from Chinese operators.
Look at what happened overseas, say in New Guinea or the Solomons or Madagascar.
The Chinese come in, they collude to undercut everyone, drive the locals to the wall and then once they're the dominant group prices go through the roof and the locals suffer.
Look at suburbs like Ashfield or Preston, go into the Chinese shops, ever seen them holding a sale? Nope, everything is the same price in every shop across a range of enterprises and it's always drastically cheaper than in chain stores or shops owned by locals.
Ever wondered how a one block shopping strip can support five Chinese Groceries, three nail salons, sundry phone shops, two dollar joints and half a dozen Noodle restaurants...collusion, price fixing and clan loyalties.

Dear Jay,

I don't live in Sydney so I can't really
comment on the problems you face on a
daily basis. I know that it must be
difficult for locals when they see so many
changes going on around them. It's hard for
everyone. All I can hope for is that we'll sort
things out in the end as we've always done.
That's the Aussie way - isn't it?

I did some work for Nestle at one time which took me into many
restruants clubs etc. Where the food supply was contracted out and was
held by a Chinese company, I never once saw an Australian employed.

Oh yes I did, the cashier at one club was an Australian.
How do they get away with it ?

> Ever wondered how a one block shopping strip can support five Chinese Groceries, three nail salons, sundry phone shops, two dollar joints and half a dozen Noodle restaurants...collusion, price fixing and clan loyalties.

This is how the real world has always worked, and at the basic level always will. The problem with the likes of Lexi, the Greens, and innumerable other Oz fantacists is that they think legislation and moral indignation will force a change. It won't. I spent the best years of my life in Singapore, and have a deep affection for the Chinese. They're certainly not perfect - in many ways they're far more racist than Europeans - but at least they're realists. And, given that my accent convinces strangers I'm a Brit, I can tell you from innumerable casual conversations that they regard Ozns as ludicrous - which, of course, they are. Do any here seriously believe that Ozn parliamentary behaviour would be tolerated in Singapore, or any other civilized place? Until we can demand adult behaviour from our Parliamentary Pillocks, Ozns will not only continue to be seen as Third World buffoons, that's all they'll ever be.

Yes, the Malaysian solution IS an exercize in incompetence. No question. What are we - who as members of a democracy are ultimately responsible for it - going to do about it? All other discussion is p'ing in the wind.

Lexi,
I'm not a nationalist but it seems the "Aussie way" was to boot out the Chinese.
Look at the rationale for the immigration restriction act, the Chinese were doing exactly the same things then as they are today, price fixing, driving down prices, undercutting locals.
These are NOT Australians we're talking about BTW, they import foreign made goods and foods, employ foreign staff,use their own suppliers everything's in house and they organise very much along ancient clan lines, they are a merchant class, a society within a society.
If a business or precinct is taken over by Chinese you get a Chinatown, an enclave which will persist indefinitely and exclude all other commercial interests.
But almost every suburban shopping strip is being overtaken by Chinese businesses, there's no diversity, it's a traitorous government allowing a takeover of retail by one specific group of foreign business people.

Bazz,
If everyone else is charging 350-500 a day for labour why are Chinese tradesmen working for 100-150?
Why not charge the same and make more money?
The only reason you'd charge a pittance would be if you had a long term plan to dive all the others out of business.
This didn't happen when the Europeans were establishing themselves in the 60's a 70's, they put prices up, the accusation against them was always of overcharging. They'd always say that they were "European Trained" to get an advantage over locals and they are shocking "White anters" but they always give us a share of the spoils, they give me and other "Aussies" tons of work.
I always ask builders who talk up the Chinese: "Will these guys take on your kid as an apprentice?" That shuts them up.

Shoot up report:
Two events in the last two days.
A home invasion by three men and a shot fired into house in Revesby on departure.
Another event by two men and shots fired into a house in "SW Sydney".
This may be code for certain suburbs of interest to police middle east squad.

Today, a police operation sealing of streets in "SW Sydney".
More info if it is publicised.
It is getting this common that these events only get a short mention
in a news bulletin. Gets about the same coverage as a traffic accident.

It's always the same thing, everywhere they go they destroy local economies, this is a pattern, patterns come from advance planning.
Solomon Islanders riot against Chinese in 2006.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4930994.stm

New Guineans protest/riot against Chinese domination of small business 2009.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/looters-shot-dead-amid-chaos-of-papua-new-guineas-anti-chinese-riots/story-e6frg6no-1225715006615

Anti Chinese riots, Tonga 2006:
http://chinaconfidential.blogspot.com/2006/11/anti-chinese-feelings-fuel-tonga-riots.html

Ashfield, Sydney, Guandong & Shanghai merchant clans dominate:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/business-booms-as-old-ashfield-becomes-new-shanghai-20110617-1g7vg.html

Once the Chinese move in, bye bye diversity, bye bye multiculturalism, that area will still be a Chinatown in 200 years. As I said, this is happening everywhere.

I was in Tasmania last month, I was driving through a tiny town called Sheffield, "Town of Murals" and stopped at the IGA to grab a drink, surprise surprise, it was staffed entirely by Chinese.
Why?
If it's "Racist" to have a shopping strip that's run entirely by "Aussies" how is letting Chinese dominate retail a step in the right direction.
A multicultural society should look like a diverse society, ours doesn't, diversity is diminishing.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-07/details-of-immigration-briefing/2875040
As unpalatable as some will find it.
My view is firmly that most Australians agree with the sentiments expressed in this link.
I wounder, not being sarcastic, just honest.
As minority's continually harp on about their view of what is right and wrong.
Ignoring majority views, even questioning our right to express those views.
What do we do about other minority views, clutch them to our Brest's ?
Say ban the export/mining/use of coal now?
We, humanity, are held together by a some times thin thread.
If it is ok to override majority for the sake of minority's.
How long before that string breaks?
Stop the boats, address migration that lies about multi culutures and see,s separatism practiced .
Bazz you and I MUST understand! the almost nightly shootings are only a cultural thing, its standard practice in the places these third generations parents came from, so duck but cop it sweet.

Belly said:
nightly shootings are only a cultural thing,

Oh yes I forgot, we cannot run roughshod over their cultural practices.
Actually, you might have spoken in jest, but unfortunately it is true.
It is one reason they are very anti police, I mean the hide of them
trying to seize their guns. It is racist !

I guess Lexi will now berate me for discrimination, hi !

Between me and the gatepost, I would pack the lot up, born here or not
and send them back. They have been filling our gaols since they got here.
A relative works in the prisons and they are as much trouble inside as outside.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/end-lawfare-by-ditching-unworkable-un-policies-20110907-1jxr3.html
I have no doubt this link will be rejected even pilloried by some.
It is well written,expresses concerns about the over ruling of the intent we took to the ballot box.
But it is built too on quick sand.
The very idea!
That just maybe the majority's view has weight! what next.

The plan was White Genocide,just because they have failed to stop White children from being born doesn't excuse their crimes.
I've got many more of these quotes from the brainwashed WW2 generation and their addled Boomer offspring.
They say they are Anti Racist, what they are is Anti White, Anti Racism is a code word for Anti White.

"Anglo-Saxon Australia is dead. This isn't the kind of society we are."
- Malcolm Fraser [1] former Prime Minister of Australia.

"I believe that Australia will ultimately become a Eurasian country as Australian Europeans and Australian Asians marry one another. I think that a desirable trend". Bill Hayden

"A truly multi-racial society is our ideal."
- Prime Minister John Gorton in Singapore.[7]

"I believe very strongly we must fight for the end of the Anglo-Celtic domination of Australia. We must fight for the end of that situation in which those, like myself, who are descendants of the Anglo-Celts say that no one else would really be suitable in a top position in Australia".
- Professor Manning Clark.

"Australia is something of a freak in Asia, a kind of ugly duckling, ruled by a transplanted European people soaking up the sun and skin cancer in a climate for which they were never intended…The Asian Australians who come here and form the links and bridges must have a sense of Australia first, a commitment to Australia and not a sense of carving out spheres of influence within Australia for the various countries from which they come. The lazy country will become the lovely country, the white society will be the honey-coloured society and the ugly duckling will become the honey coloured swan."
- Dr. Stephen Fitzgerald.[8

"I think that if we build up gradually inside Australia a proportion of people without white skins, then there will be a complete lack of consciousness that it is being built up, and that we will arrive at a state where we will have a multi-racial country without racial tensions - and perhaps the first in the world."
- Sir John Gorton.[2] Former Prime Minister of Australia.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/07/priest-appeals-justice-african-migrants
This link could be a worth while read.
It tells of the horrible possibility that 28.000 have drowned! in attempts to get to Italy and near country's.
I clearly want to disassociate myself from comments both left and right here.
Some right ones infer we should be the white Australia of the past.
Nonsense! Multi cultures of them selves do not threaten but bring hope and promise.
It is separatism within I fear.
And in truth any, but one in particular, religion that leaves its followers with the middle ages view humanity is not one, Christianity while not threatening my culture is no better.
The other side?
So fixed that their views are the only one, they flee from the thread rather than see such as me claim my country will not benefit by blind love and self harm.
Coffee colored future Aussies is no threat to me.

Jay,
The quote you showed from Dr Fitzgerald;
"Australia is something of a freak in Asia, a kind of ugly duckling,

illustrates a delusion which I have discovered is being taught by our
school teachers to a generation of childeren.

Australia is NOT in Asia !
It is a simple matter of geography.
Many also are unaware that Indonesia also is not in Asia.
Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia and Papua New Guinea are in Oceana !
Asia is a Northern Hemisphere group of countries.

Many try to deny the geography and are also unaware that Beijing is
closer to Europe than it is to Australia.
When Nt Korea was firing their misiles much ado was made about the
threat to us, but we were out of range but Europe was not out of range.
Most journalists and political commentators need a lesson in geography, an an understanding that Mercadores projection does not
display the shape of the world. The world is a shere.
All Mercadores world maps should be removed from school walls.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/tony-abbotts-blunder-will-haunt-him-as-pm/story-e6frgd0x-1226133501269
No link I have posted in my life
Better describes my point of view.
And none ever better highlights the true Tony Abbott.
Every arrival by boat, now due to his miss use of this matter.
In the strangest way, has Tony Abbott to thank.
He an he alone, seems intent on using this issue not fixing it.

Belly,

You seriously underestimate Abbott.

Juliar always had the Pacific solution as an option, and because of hubris went for the Malaysian solution that went way beyond the pacific solution legally. Juliar now needs a solution far more than Abbott does. Abbott needs the law altered so that the Pacific solution may be re instituted again, but as a good negotiator intends to extract his ounce of flesh from Juliar.

I believe Juliar will get her amendments but will be forced into a humiliation compromise. Either ditching the Malaysian solution, but most probably implementing detention in Nauru and TPVs. This can then be used to drive a wedge between Labor and the greens.

Belly, I think you have misinterpreted that article whose link you
provided.
I don't think it would be a good idea to send them to Malaysia.
It is a moslem country and I don't think you can expect that
undertakings would be honoured.
There is also the problem of under age minors.
The problem of processing them here is that they can then say,
"We are in Australia, you cannot send us anywhere."
That is why Christmas Island was exercised from Australia.
It is an external territory.
You cannot exercise any mainland area.
Once they set foot on Australia, you cannot deny them unless you can
prove they are not under threat.

They must not be allowed onto the mainland.
That is why turning them around is the most effective solution.
The temporary visas are a 2nd best solution.

Your comment on Abbot has no meaning, it is simply a method of getting
Nauru put beyond doubt. I just cannot see what is evil about that.