So here we go agai bracing ourselves for yet another labor flop, plain packaging.

As usual they will not listen to those who know and as such are about to create a nightmear in the retail oulets, while in my view achieving very little good.

As we all kno, cigaretes are smoked, not packages.

Nobody is educated to cigarette packages, are they!

Good oh, it must be a good idea of you don't like it rehctub.

The plainer the better, the more out of sight the better, the less advertising the better, the more places where smokes cannot intrude the better, the more smokes cost the better, and the greater the tax the better.

At last, something Gillard has got right!

In fact, we need to have a new supertax on smokes companies, a 110% slug on every dollar they earn and a tariff on imports of 400% plus an increase in excise of 1000%.

Brown stars to be sewn onto the lapels of smokers, stocks outside chemists who should become the only sellers of fags, by prescription only. A required 20 minutes locked in the stocks while the prescription is being filled, with a priest flicking water on the sinners forehead as he mumbles Latin prayers over the poor fool to save their souls before they descend into 'that dark place'.

Yes, to Hell with fags, and smokers.

Hay Bluey, you know I've never heard of anyone killing some innocent bloke in the street, because they had smoked too many cigarettes.

I do regularly hear of it in drunken brawls, from idiots drinking too much.

Perhaps you hate the wrong vice mate. It's grog we should try to stop not smoking.

I have to laugh every time this question on smoking comes up. Be aware that NICOTINE is NON-addictive. So what keeps us smokers puffing away?.
I used to smoke 20 fags / day of commercial brands then I went to 'chop-chop' which was 1/2 price, and guess what!, my craving for a smoke started to vanish. I reasoned [correctly] that since chop-chop came straight from the grower, it had nothing in it but raw tobacco so what is in the commercial brands that keeps people addicted to them?. Im lucky if I smoke 1/2 a dozen chopies a day now but by equakl reasoning, the tobacco companies have literally adulterated the cigs with other chemicals DESIGNED in part to keep you addicted to them. Has anyone seen the actual and total amount of chemicals that are used to make commercial fags?, why is not the contents displayed on the packet like food products [ Tar, nicotine, chemical 1,2,3,4,5,6 etc] why is only the first 2 main contents quoted and not the rest?. You dont have to consume buckets of a narcotic to get addicted, as you don't have to put in a great amount of any addictive chemical in a product to make you totally addictive to that product. I have never even heard of any company being adited for WHAT goes into cigarettes before we get them. In the factory as raw tobacco, out with a chemical cocktail of WHAT?.Additionally, how much reseach on the addictive quallity of these addition chemicals has been done, by anyone as stand alone or a combined mixture in speciific proportions?. Lets get it straight from the scientists - tobacco is NOT addictive and the rest has never been questioned.

As for plain packaging, that's plain stupidity.
This sort of public control of a legal product does more harm than good. Tobacco companies can NOW get away with forming cartels since noboby will know who makes the stuff. In addition, millions if not billions of dollars will be claimed for copywrite stripping. Cigarettes would become cheaper since one company can package every brand and maybe put a little stamp identifying the maker. There is a standing federal law that prohibits anyone from hindering a person or company from making a legal living from a legal business and this legislation proposeal smashes that law and sets a precident.The implications for other allied and non-allied businesses are mind boggling.

lest forget..this is built on lies
from go to woe

the much touted cost...'attributable' to smoking
of 31 billuion..is the total cost..of bying smokes to cleaning up butts..and giggie burns on stools and a pro-rata number of leave/sick days accorded to smoking..as well as assumed medical costs

but by clever spin and lies
we have reached this higher level of absurdity
where international trade laws will overule national legislation
and govt will be giving back your taxes..to multinatiional assosiations

its hard to say..it was a deliberated colluded attempt to defraud you
but carefull study of the death rate numbers..[abused in the debate]
of 15,000 are as it is recorded..ATTRIBUTABLE to smoking

now attributable is a relitive term
any attributable cause of deatgh..that can be 'attributd'...has been attributed

thus cancer is one attributable[despite]the rate of all cancers being in line with non smokers[ie smoking isnt a cause of cancer]

nevertheless all cabncers went into the number
as did all heart attacks..and all asbestosis deaths

please recall..that autossies WERE NOT conducted
unless the docter didnt write down..'died by smoking'
[as if we die from smoking]..the death is by whatever caused our death

some die from drinking
others die from heart dis-ease
others from cancer..others who gives a darn

thing is you been spun a lie
and because your gullible..smokers pay the tax

but you in turn wil get your own lies
when they come after your vice
[it looks like suger[diabetus]..
will be next]

then maybe booze or transfacts..or lazyness
but it will be funny never the less
cause i dont do none of them

if only those who lobby for these taxes
were on the record..so when it blows up in their face

its them who will be held to account
not those who are attributed the blame/cost

ps total medical..smoking related costs
are 800 million..

so stop the 31 BILLION spin
in hell you will be eating them lies

Yeah, TBC...thoroughly entertaining post. I had a good laugh, but I'm with Hasbeen (for once).

My pappy smoked, drank and gambled to excess. Two of those three contributed to making our early childhoods a misery....and it wasn't the smoking.

TBC, love you to.

The plain fact is that your style of thinking is better suited to countries that dictate what and when people can do something, thankfully, we don't live in one of this countries.

As a non smokers myself, I quite admire smokers, as they, along with gamblers account for billions in taxes each and every year that takes preasure of tax payers like myself.

If they are stupid enough to smoke, then that's their choice.

It's the plain ackaging that is a dumb idea.

It will.cause a lot of confusion to retailers, something that will lead to frustration and cost increases that, in a sector that is already struggling, will go down like a lead balloon.

Proof.
If a kid goes to school and sells cigarettes, do you think the other kid who buys it cares what brand it is.

Answer, No!

Now considering this is the group they are trying to protect, what do ya recon, another flop hey!

Yes indeed,a quick look at those opposing it says it must be a good idea.
Further evidence will come as the world follows.
And the best out come, well for some here it is but another stone to throw at the government.
Fortunately most think and end to the habit, and its toll, is worth the insults.
And wait, there indeed is more.
The free set of kitchen knives is in this case evidence, while every one has every right to an opinion.
The opinions of some are quite marginal.

On yers Belly.

There is nothing good or worthwhile about smoking chaps and esses.

It stinks, is intrusive, expensive for all of us, and is a danger we could easily do without.

I have no doubt people whinged about ending Guy Fawkes night too, with gripes about 'freedom of choice' as loud as now.

Seatbelts and airbags in cars. I recall the outrgaed truckies who moaned about safety belts in the cab, and passengers in coaches who still refuse to wear a belt.

True, we cannot expects to save all the Drongos in this world from themselves but how about a bit of neoliberal eceonomics?

Smokers cause untold cost in the health system and fail to pay their way. Spongers on society, selfish people who seek only to impose themselves on others in the public square.

I am unmoved by those who wave a white flag, Poirot, and look forward to the day we rid our air of this worthless expensive ugly blight on us all.

I have been in to a fag factory, seen the bales of weed sitting under plastic tarps, and noted the many hoses going to the Rentokill cylinders that lay alongside, with various brews of toxic killers being pumped in to the next billion fags to be smoked by unwitting dupes of the capitalist 'profit at any price' drug dealers.

Why is there no support here for the undoing of the 'illegal' drugs, eh?

Post that one rehctub, seeking support for the undoing of 'illiberal' laws that prevent 'free choice'.

Or would you be happy so long as dope did not come in plain zip bags?

TBC, nice diversion.

But seriously, do you really think plain packaging will turn people away from smoking.

Do they demand a label on their pot of beer, pulled at the bar.of cause not. They simply choose thei beer of their choice, in most cases.

Now if all beer labels were removed from beer, do you think drinkers would drink less.

Of cause not.

S I say, it's yet another wasteful useless exercise by this incompetent government.

Belly, it is my understanding that in Argo tibia there is only one brand of cigaretes. They see heaps because they are cheap.

Now as for drugs TBC
Well, if you want my view I think they should all be legalized. Remove the money and you remove the crime associated with the drug trade.

If people are stupid enough to take drugs, then that's their choice.

I think they are just thinking of the little guy.

It will now be harder for the average punter to distinguish fake products.

Look forward to an astounding range of fake smokes, all in khaki packs. Some will be better than the commercial brands.

"give us a green, will you, luv?"

Only the authorities will have convenient scanners for ultraviolet watermarks, DNA taggants, spectroscopic databases of inks, enabling them to "catch" retailers of fake product, even though such retailers and their customers will have no convenient way to check and thus circumvent such fraud pre-emptively and in good faith.

Rusty

Clearly, advertising never works, or there would be savings now with no ads, no copyright signs, no 'Stradbroke' names to invoke the 'happy days on the beach' for the dimwits who think they are buying sunshine and happiness rather than ill health, including bad body smells and gasping death, when they buy fags.

There would be no battles about having to go to a plain wrapper, would there?

Well?

As for beer brands, the nano-parochio-nationalism of state-of-the-origin between Fosters, VB and XXXX are part of sport and the westie tribal mind set that follows it. Advertising, be it for beer or states or teams or fags are all effective for 'the bears of little brain' in taking up and continuing with their fagging and boozing.

In fact, without advertising, promotions, girlies and silly names that evoke pleasure, the tribal westies that fall for this stuff would have nothing to do with their lives and might just find the time to wonder why they are so very gullible and led so willingly by their nose rings.

And that would never do, would it?

TBC with the greatest of re ect, you are missin the point.

Imagine if all goods arrived at th supermarket in plain packaging.

Now imagine how easy it would be to place one item in the space where another was meant to be.

You grab your item, go to the checkout, pay for it, then get home and realize you have canned peaches instead of canned tomatoes. SO much for the dinner plans.

Now, you take your peaches back and complain, but the retailer say you paid for peaches and received peachesc, so why is this our fault. Meanwhile, they have no choice other than to refund the item.

Now that's fine, but what about th dinner you missed out on.

Aso, most cigaretes are sold from the service desk, not the checkout.

Now while peopl will except waiting to see a doctor, they refuse to wait at a retail store and, considering the retailer will have to take more time to locate and check the cigaretes this will result in additional wages or longer waits, both of which will effect business.

Unless you ar in retail you don't understand how it works.

Also, how often do people bum a smoke. Do they ask what brand it is?

The intentions may be good, but in reality it won't work and, considering. Wasted billion already, can we afford this gamble.

Well, I shop at Black & Gold where everything is in plain black and gold but I still manage to know what is inside the cans.

When they say 'plain' packs that does not mean 'blank' packs.

As for waiting in retail shops, don't start me there please.

Having school children running billion dollar shops is not a good idea,with their as yet undiscovered notions of speed and service.

Child labour is good for greedy shareholders, and fuels the iphone market and ISP suppliers but 'service' no chance!

We'll just have to disagree here.

I really do not care a jot for smokers, with their bad body smells and filthy habits of dropping litter everywhere, setting the bush alight, and filling public spaces with avoidable pollution.

I hope they do get confused when spending their money.

Only a total moron would smoke more than one fag in their life, they are so disgusting.

There is a solution though, for those who think they are 'addicted' to fags and cannot help themselves.

My 89 year old mother has Altzheimers, as well as diabetes and lung ailments and has smoked all her adult life from age 19.

No less than 40 fags a day for 70 years. I understand that smoking helps those with diabetes to have their legs drop off and also in the development of Altzheimers.

But this is the good news.

This year I saw her in February, and she was fuming like a chimney stack, as per usual.

I saw her about in May and she had stopped!

Totally forgotten she smoked!

Needless to say, I didn't bother to remind her at all.

So there you go smokers, there is light at the end of your chimney.

Get yourself some Altzheimers and give up fuming.

Couldn't be easier. You'll soon forget you've got all those other ailments and that you are a burden to the national health system as well as being a stinking idiot.

TBC, first to the kids running billion dollar businesses.

One thing to blame, it's called labors IR laws.

As for smoking, have you smoked yourself?

If you have not, then you ar simply unqualified to comment on this.

I am a reformed smacker and I must say I hate smoking myself, but I am an experienced opinion here.

"TBC, first to the kids running billion dollar businesses.

"One thing to blame, it's called labors IR laws."

We all make typos, but this is hard to understand. Did you miss a capital L on 'Labors' or did you miss a u with 'labour'?

It makes a difference.

If you are blaming Labor for allowing 'child rates' then you would be correct but you'd have to add in the Coalition and all employer groups to that crime.

If you are more generally upset with 'the labour laws' then you are right again, since the major political parties and all employer groups believe it is moral and honest to have slave rates based purely on age.

Or, are you pointing to the overpayment of bosses and greedy shareholders with labour laws that offer no limits to 'CEO' wages and an immoral share-market thriving on greed and fear?

Now for fagging, "If you have not, then you ar simply unqualified to comment on this."

Utter bullshite, everyone can and should have an opinion on the dirt,smell and overbearing presence of smoking and smokers.

And yes, I once bought a packet of 5 Woodbines, 1 packet of Sobrane Cocktails and a pipe and swiftly found out that there is nothing whatsoever to recommend smoking to anyone. Only the most committed ninny who stuck with it packet after packet managed to get the hang of smoking and thrive on the 'look at me' charade that goes with it.

So, thanks for that entree rehctub, I appreciated it.

Now, this is serious and I am quite shocked that you have the courage to admit to child smacking on this thread, "I am a reformed smacker". I'm not sure how smacking fits with the thread, but I am pleased to hear you have reformed on this harmful act.

And no, I am not guilty of this child abuse so will avoid commenting but not because I do not have an opinion but simply because I am not sure it belongs here.

Odd, because plain packing is not what threatens the tobacco economy. The electronic cigarette is enemy number one for big tobacco and big pharma, and governments in Australia are helping them by making it hard for smokers to access the new technology. There is a big scare campaign against the product, but there is little evidence that it is more harmful than current nicotine replacement therapies. This would give it less than 2% the mortality of tobacco, perhaps much less.

TBC, is that th best you can come up with.

Sorry about he typos, but I am out bush using an IPad.

Now as for smakin kids, you know exactly what I said and meant, didn't you!

Now just on that topic, we smacked our kids when they did wrong we have two adult kids now and as parents we could not be more proud of them both.

I consider myself a very lucky guy. I have a sole mate for a wife of some 26 years and counting, and we fully intend to grow old gracefully together.

Now f that makes smacking kids such a bad thing then I highly recommend it.

Aha, so when in the bush an ipad fails to work properly, eh?

Interesting, I'll get on to Jobs about that for you.

TBC

When you're out past the black stump, Spell-check fails. Also I think Rehctub was smacked once too often around the ears by his doting parents - would explain a lot.

What is it with people who think plain packaging tobacco is too 'nanny state', but a clip around the ears is acceptable?

Having stopped smoking over 7 years ago, fully endorse the plain packaging. I used to smoke Stuyvesant, soft pack - never did believe in any of that 'light' nicotine B/S. And a soft pack of Stuyvo's were 'cool' in my youth - plain packaging would eradicate all of that image stuff young people are so caught up in.

Ammonite, now what you write makes sense to me.

I did mention the cool factor in one of my posts.

As a feckless (and spotty)youf, who did not smoke having found early how disgusting it was, I know only too well what level of 'cool' is attached by children to adult pursuits.

And to be fair, boozing is in there too. Something I also tried and did not give up, although so long as one does not over-booze, be that in binge drinking or daily always drinking 'a few', then it has some social benefits, although, again, those who do not drink at all are frowned upon by those who do, a very unreasonable situation one feels.

But I thought Ammonite, that maybe the reason the spillchicker did not work past the Black Stump might have been more to do with booze than signals.

I agree with your comments on 'spanking' but hey, look at Malaysia, a few strokes of the birch never hurt anyone, did it?

I'm sure our non-practising Baptist PM would never allow anyone to fall into harms way.

That would be like the AFP handing over drug runners to the Bali police for a bullet in the head, wouldn't it? And we all know THAT would NEVER happen.

Not that a bullet ever hurt anyone, of course.

TBC, I drink and I used to smoke, but I have no beef with anyone who does or does not do either as it is their choice.

When and where they choose to do this, and by which means th money was provided do mean. Something to me.

As for image, are you lot seriously trying to tell me that a kid wont accept a free smoke unless it's a brand they either like, or at least like to look of.
get a grip!

Anyway, we will all know in time, however, I fear if it fails it will be yet another entry into the failures log.

The world of contradictions...makes one think when walking past a smoke shop. You know, when I make eye contact with the venders of legal drugs for the pubic, I do wonder the harm there giving their follow humans:)

I think the human-race needs to have a good look at its self.....Because F.Me...to sell something that harms other people, where is the morals and anything that requires intelligent thinking?

Yes I know......the almighty dollar, and that's the meaning of life.

It only needs just a bit of truth, and one day at a time.

SPY.V.SPY

under one god:

Firstly, I must compliment you on your posts – each one of them is a work of art. Often esoteric and sometimes require some extra work to interpret but art should be like that.

I would like to pick up on your costings – I simply do not know whether its $31B or $800M but expect it to be closer to the latter. What I would like to see is an estimate for the savings made by smokers dying early and therefore not requiring age care, palliative treatment and the plethora of devices and services that frankly cost a fortune just to keep them / us alive.

Let’s have a stab – 1,000,000 naughty people dying 10 years early – assume average cost per week for average care, medicines and treatments at $500. Hmm, that’s $26B pa. Hmm. Even if my maths is out by a factor of 10 or 100, it’s still a SL of cash we’ll have to find if everyone stopped smoking and lived longer (plus we wouldn’t have the excise income either). Hmm.

rehctub:

To address your original post, I think that people will smoke regardless. I remember when smokes went from $1.20 to $2.00 in mid-80’s – there was outcry and predictions that punters would give it up in droves ... I think the rules that have been around for a few years now that have them locked out of view is an excellent deterrent and think the extra step of plain packaging is unnecessary.

under one god:

Firstly, I must compliment you on your posts – each one of them is a work of art. Often esoteric and sometimes require some extra work to interpret but art should be like that......lol....does one need one leg when kissing butt, or just a novelists understanding of giving a well placed plate of chum, next to the water bowl:)

Must be two puff and billies bitching over the price of poison:)

When will the madness ever stop.

SPY.V.SPY

peter..i got the 800 million from the hansard
[it was during the debate]...i noted them at the time on the topic
with actual quotes of who said it

i think here

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4307&page=0

but..there was another one at the time
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11850&page=0

the 31 billion is as said there at that time
the total monetry cost of smoking..[ie everything from bying,it/jobs.taxes...ie 'social costs'..the term you use when your trying to tell a lie

if it could be linked to smoking...
even including the cost of burying those deemed to have died from smoking attributable causes

attributable is another buzz word
if gangreen is 'attributable' to smoking..that goes into the 'stats'

if asbestosis lung deaths...are attributable as smoking..
insurance then dont have to payout for asbestosis..etc etc
which was a huge worry for that industry

THEN,
it goes all..into the 'social cost' numbers

even the 800 million
of actual medical costs

but as you will be aware..the big number so easilly is dropped in as the medical costs..[but even by dividing the numbers..that simply dont float..thus is spin]

I would rather see drinking alcohol regulated a bit more than it is.
Smoking is an informed choice for those who indulge. The tax earned by Government on cigarettes is far too good to let go of.
The people who indulge in this habit are only hurting themselves and possibly their family, eventually the day will come when it may kill the smoker. I have never seen any smoker come home and bash his wife and kids, or cause car accidents. I would far rather see more time and money, if necessary , go into educating those who drink in public places, get drunk and try to drive home, usually, it is more than one person who gets injured, maimed or killed.
NSB

Cactus:) – I’m glad I gave you a giggle on a Monday morning but suspect your “LOL” was mirthless. You seem to be very upset about the fact that others are killing themselves by their own choice and paying handsomely for the privilege. What gives?

Is it the naughty tobacco companies that tricked us into using the weed? Does the sight of someone enjoying a fag make you jealous? It is the workmates sniggering over a smoke break and you’re not in on the joke? Do you forever wonder what it would be like to share that post-coital ciggie?

Don’t get me wrong – smoking is disgusting and I am glad there has been a big cleanup to remove smokers from inside planes, offices, pubs, etc. But please let people make their own choices if it doesn’t harm anyone else.

If you need to be angry about something, go and find a more useful cause – NSB has the right idea in the awful cost to society (including many innocents) due to the misuse of grog.

I'm with the last few posts, let smokers kill themselves by all means, it less tax that non smokers have to contribute to the purse.

With one exception, self inflicted harm should not be treated as either a priority, or with public funding.

Want to smoke, or drink in excess, go ahead but pay your own medical bills.

Iam with rehctub on this one.
These are just some the thing I see wrong.

1. Overpopulation.

2. Protecting the environment.

3. Equal opportunity all creatures great and small.

4. Helping those that seem unable to quite a nasty, stinky, unsightly, butt gobbling, chain smoking chimneys, to see the light:)

5. Helping stupidity where ever I may find it.

6. Freedom for all the religious people in the world that don't act like twats......with their tellings of a great invisible ghostly thing that's up in the sky somewhere.

7. All for aborion, with stopping any more people being born into a non-positive reality.

8. Helping the sheepishness of people to realize the earth is not flat.....and the planet really can be screwed up by man.

9. Gay rights, with no exception of the closet kind, priests included....:)

10. and many, many more subjects that need some sort of moral or ethical/mythical understandings, that can help mankind to realize that he and she are both apes......and still evolving, with some that even now, drag their knuckles right up to this very day.

However, thanks for your reply, and I think your saying the old call of...., DO IT, BUT DON'T GET CAUGHT> or in this case.....catch something:)

"You seem to be very upset about the fact that others are killing themselves by their own choice and paying handsomely for the privilege. What gives?".......

Hey. The mail is Peter Mac, passive Fag smoking, as you have label it, has proven not to kill others, and the good old gas-chambers, just comes in a clever little a packet of stinky poison....I just love!....Whats the problem again?

Well that's means euthanasia/suicide are acting like there,s more than a few ways to wipe one's self out. well Iam all for it then:) and all this time, we were banging our heads against the wall, while all the time, humans were just supporting the idea, that human-reduction is alive and well?

Great!....I feel like break dancing:)

Thats just fantastic! and couldn't agree more.....On with the slaughter, and I thought there was a problem...:)

Cactus.