http://images.smh.com.au/2011/08/21/2572609/ipad-art-wide-mucci-cartoon-420x0.jpg
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/thomson-saga-sinks-labor-into-the-abyss-20110821-1j4im.html

The opinion piece

"Thomson saga sinks Labor into the abyss" says it all.

Julia is in the mother of all wedges. To abandon the Labor and union cover up of Thomson's misdeeds would mean the loss of government, however, to continue it means to link the Labor brand with prostitution, theft and fraud.

Craig Emmerson's attack on Abbott for double standards for ignoring the Liberal senator conveniently ignores two aspects of this other case:
1 The case is a police matter and is presently before the courts,
2 The Coalition has provided no support or defence for the senator.
Whereas, the only reason that Thomson is not defending criminal charges is that the Union and Labor are not pressing charges, and defending him vigorously.

It is the Graham Richardson philosophy of,"Whatever it takes." which has taken them down this path.They will lie,cheat and steal.Let's hope Thompson is charged and we can have an election.

Here is a corker:

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2011/08/21/1226119/207515-110822-bill-leak.jpg

The calls for Thomson to be stood down should be heeded by the Labor party, as the example from the Australian Crime commission where a crooked cop was in charge, shows the damage that can be done.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/top-cop-mark-william-standen-walked-a-very-crooked-path/story-e6freuy9-1226113395346

If Thomson is guilty of misusing money from union funds for private purposes and for misleading Fair Work Australia then it does cast a shadow over his integrity. There is no doubt.

I wonder how rank and file Labor feel about the use of their fees to pay for Thomson's legal fees for an event which happened while he was in the employ of a union.

However, there is a presumption of innocence in this country until proven guilty. If he is proven guilty of misappropriating funds, and if the PM continues with her support she will lose credibility but I don't think that would happen when the evidence is conclusive. We can only speculate given the risks in a by-election.

the dead feel no pain
their spirit has a delight in letting the stink get bigger

that might sound harse
but when you got nothing left of ya left
ya got nothing left to lose

it sems that buying a prositute with a creduit card is fine
and saying you lost ya card/licence...then not appltying for new ones
means something stinks..[or ya didnt 'loose' it']

to whom much is given
much more was to be expected

i recall a case where a 'justice'...blamed his speeding on a dead person...and was made an egsample of..[what egsample does this send to juliars children

oh she dont have none
ok what egsample is this sending to other children
when mp's pay girls to act loose..[for cash]

no matter how you look at this
it still dont look good

here is a pm..selling a mess-age
seving the boys club..then defending them playing with the 'toys' of orrifice..[for what]..to bring on a tax...using lies

way to go juliar
you sell your soul..for what?

and the other side is just as bad
are we being seerved..in letting them serve themselves
treating us all like hookers...then pimping our cash

john howard didnt pay off our debt
overtaxing us did..[and privatising the family silver]

no it wont be terminal
in this state of denial/spin/lies
its only satan..claiming back his own
knowing the media has ben bought and sold
and justice is just us not them

Yeah, right. And all the 'born-to-rule' Liberals are as honest as... well, try South Australian Liberal Senator Mary Jo Fisher.

Up for stealing. Guess being in Opposition doesn't pay enough.

http://skynews.com.au/topstories/article.aspx?id=641381&vId=

Oh, is Labor making as big a deal out of this as TAbbott is about Thomson's credit card use?

Have heard nada.

However, let's not spoil Shadow Minister's continued double standard fun at OnLiberalOpinion.

Ammonite, Pelican,

The presumption of innocence is a valid position where the issue is being dealt with by the correct authorities, such as in the case with MJF, with a fixed time line to its conclusion at the trial on Sept 1.

With CT, there is no trial yet, and the reason for this is the subterfuge employed by Juliar Gillard to cover up the crimes. What is clear is that fraud has been committed against the union, either by a master forger who had Thomson's credit card, driver's license and phone, or by Thomson himself.

If Labor deliberately obstructs the process of justice, then the presumption of innocence wears a little thin.

Why not? it is Abbott and his like who betray justice and Democracy.
Why wait till he is charged.
Or for a trial, convict the bugger now.
Whoops, lets not mention the Liberal Senator who has been charged.
No way we want to get ahead of justice here, in her case.
And those who faced charges in the last Parliament, miss use of printing allowances, they got cleared.
Lets get this bloke just in case he is too!
About now, our Tony, is standing out the front of Parliament, addressing his thinking equals.
They are screaming to end DEMOCRACY call an election no grounds yet exist for.;
This mud we now live in called Australian politics is starting to stink.

Belly,

This is easily resolved by referring the matter to the police.

The reason that the stink of corruption emanates from Juliar Gillard is that the federal Labor party is covering up the issue and stopping any investigation.

Shadow Minister may I sat I feel sorry for you.
No honestly I do.
In all the years we have played verbal tennis you not once came on to the court in possession of a mirror.
Always and forever you see only the bad on my side the good on yours.
On little more than hope he can force an election, using words you well could have written.
Your mate Mad monk Tony, has left his head behind.
I still see your thread as an attempted lynching, he has not yet been charged.
The umpire, fair work Australia is investigating him, wait for the results please.

Thompson has been caught stealing $100,000 from his Union over 4 yrs.He's gone and so are Labor.

If there is a criminal charge the authorities should get on with it and save us all the eternal politicking. The PM needs to make the right decision on this, it is not good enough to support the insupportable just to avoid a bi-election if there is any truth to the allegations.

Put your left foot in Mary Jo Fisher also deservers the presumption of innocence until a jury can decide.

Incompetents surrounded by incompetent people leads to incompetent government.

She must be spewing.

As if she isn't doing a great job of burying herself, along comes yet another fool to giv her a push.

Gee, I find it hard to feel sorry for her.

Belly,

I feel sorry for you. Your party has left any shred of credibility behind. Labor is now synonymous with corruption and incompetence.

I suspect we'll be hearing a few things about Liberal MP Peter Slipper and his indiscretions over the following days. Some journos have been submitting FOI requests over his very unusual travel arrangements and this hasn't gone unnoticed by the ALP.

He's had a long list of previous offences and isn't called "Slippery Pete" for nothing.

Tit-for-tat.

Fact
As an officer of a trade union at that time he is being investigated by the body with the power to do so, indeed the duty.
Fair work Australia.
It has power to act here and an obligation.
It can bring court action against him or it can hand its evidence to state police.
At the end of its investigations we will know what action is to be take.
Question for my country.
Look at the hate, lies, blindness, generated here and yesterday out side our federal Parliament.
Consider this, Labor will be removed in the next election.
And replaced by?
How many of us expect this country to recover soon from the blindness such as seen yesterday, and calling for this man to be convicted before his trial if any?

Miss use of travel expenses in one thing, but seriously, paying for hookers with government credit cards is hardly in the same category.

Norms shop lifting for that matter.

In any case, the real issue here is whether or not he misused government funds to avaoid bankruptcy.

Huge difference.

Belly
As for democracy, that was displayed in the last election as the swing away from labor was huge.

It's just that mandam PM went to extraordinary lengths to gain support, even to the point of agreeing to unworkable legislation changes with a squeaky wheel,, something she no doubt regtets now.

In fact, it not for the lies, failures and broken promises she has made, I think she would can this deal, but what little is left of her credibility would be gone.

I think you may see democracy come next election. Greens and independents may well be dead in the water.

Labor will once again be a spent force.

It's just a putty they make such a mess of things as the fix just becomes harder as their debt rises.

BTW. How are they going with their return to surplus promise?

I guess if they get punted early that's one promise the won't have to keep.

With further revelations that Thomson's phone was used for work calls just prior and just after calling the brothel, and making the credit card payment, it has gone far beyond reasonable doubt that Thomson deliberately made the payment and his claims are bald faced lies.

Now it would appear that the accountants are not prepared to sign off the books for 2007/8 when Thomson was in charge. While not specifying the reasons, the most common reason is that of cooked books.

The latest Newspoll shows labor back at the all time low, and Juliar plumbing new lows. I personally don't see her making it past Xmas, let alone to 2013.

The question is whether Juliar will have the integrity to stop covering up for Thomson.

If Gillard is turfed out and Abbott becomes PM, so what??

What will be the essential differences?

They are the Liblabs, two peas in a pod, two very slighlty different versions of the same rapid-expansion-with-no-end-in-sight policital MADNESS.

And that's about the size of it! ( :>|

Has the man actually been charged with anything?
Do we have conclusive evidence that he's guilty,
or is this merely a media beat up and accusations
being made with no concrete proof. In this country
a man is innocent until proven guilty - and this man
is surely entitled to have his case heard before we
jump the gun in making judgements. I agree that there
should be a thorough investigation - and I'm sure that
union members are entitled to know what really happened.
The PM should seek a complete and thorough investigation.
And the Opposition should back her in this regard.

The matter is under investigation. Our law works on the basis of innocent until proven guilty. (Be grateful, you may benefit some day.) The Prime Minister would be open to criticism if she acted before the investigation was completed.

Whatever you think of the Prime Minister, the language used about her is disgraceful. The point of a civil democratic society is that you respect people and office even if you disagree with their actions. If you demean the current Prime Minister, you give the right to others to demean a future Prime Minister that you support.

How many people have realised this; The more labor is discredited, the longer they will remain in the wilderness. There are corrupt people in every government [ yes, even liberal] Labor are condeming the future voters to a self impossed dictator ship because there will be no alternative to liberal when they get in and corruption rears it's ugly head here. The stain of misstrust will never wash from labors clothes and the only alternative to liberal in the future will be what ?.

Lexi,

"Has the man actually been charged with anything?" - Not while Juliar is blocking the investigation.

"Do we have conclusive evidence that he's guilty," - Yes

"he PM should seek a complete and thorough investigation." - As the opposition has been asking for, and she has been refusing.

Shadow Minister:

On the surface, he appears to be corrupt. It's certainly very damning for Labor.

Happy?

Now can you make a similar post about one of the many missteps that the coalition has made, in an effort to prove that you're capable of objectivity?

I just thought I'd give you the chance to demonstrate that you're capable of objectively critiquing both sides, instead of just mindlessly promoting one side.

Up for a challenge?

Shadow Minister:

On the surface, he appears to be corrupt. It's certainly very damning for Labor.

Happy?

Now can you make a similar post about one of the many missteps that the coalition has made, in an effort to prove that you're capable of objectivity?

I just thought I'd give you the chance to demonstrate that you're capable of objectively critiquing both sides, instead of just zealously criticizing one side, in the manner of someone with a vested interest. Plus, it's pretty off-putting when someone shows they're not interested in genuine discussion, they're just here to slander one side of politics, which is funny as both sides seem to be out-doing each other in terms of crass populism.

Up for a challenge?

Disregard first post. I clicked post comment instead of post revision, then clicked post revision, and ended up with both.

TRTL

I was unable to find any instance where a Liberal PM intervened to cover up blatant fraud and corruption by one of his back benchers.

Given the disproportionate weighting of Greens and Labor supporters in this forum, and their eagerness to dredge up minor infractions from years ago, I would have expected to already see lists of "crimes". That I haven't indicates that there probably is nothing comparable.

Perhaps you could enlighten us. The challenge for you is to produce something this decade.

How do you disregard the past, history don't go away. It gets slimier with age,

Rechtub I am as much as possible not responding to you.
Your bitter unfounded posts talk for them selves.
Matched by your failure to understand simple truths.
I will continue to read this thread after this post.
But under current Australian law I firmly think you have defamed this man.
On what basis, using what evidence do you claim this man used government funds?
What government please and what funds.
As many will be aware fair work Australia is conducting an investigation, this persons former employment puts him under laws they control.
In what country, before trial, are offenders or possible offenders convicted before trial.
I am forever offended by your constant abuse of us Labor voters.
But heavily discounting your accountability for your statements.
It is clear you have little or no understanding of the subject.

Belly,

Under law, defamation is only possible if the allegations are false, as the collapse of Thomson's defamation case against Fairfax attests. Given the huge volume of evidence mounting a defamation case would have to show that either the evidence was false, or that it was unreasonable to conclude that Thomson hired prostitutes and got the union to pay for it.

For those laborites clamouring for silence whilst due process takes its course, the hypocrisy behind that is because Labor is deliberately impeding due process.

The focus on Thomson and Juliar will continue until due process is no longer impeded and Juliar makes full account of her involvement in the cover up.

Well, what about that Coalition minister, back in the seventies or eighties, who tried to sneak a Paddington Bear in without paying customs duties, and promptly resigned ?

Not so cocky now, are you, you coalition supporters ?

Just because the honourable member for Dobell used a union credit card, or whatever, to pay for prostitutes, and got his union to bail him out from some other debt, and got his party to save him from bankruptcy - well, what about that senator who got caught pinching a packet of tea-bags ?

Pot and kettle ! Let's leave our members alone !

Nya nya !

SM, my challenge wasn't specific to sexual allegations. By all means, feel free to demonstrate your even-handedness by making a genuine, general criticism of the coalition.

Just to show that you can. Surely, you wouldn't try to tell people that they haven't made some monumental screwups as well?

SM

I am a member of the Liberal Party and I have this fantastic bridge on Sydney Harbour for sale.

You know it is true, a Liberal told you so.

Day by day we see that Commissar Julia has no clothes, but the Labor team continue to wash and iron them.

No Malaysia, but there are High Court actions launched by illegal aliens, and we get sound bites on telly or the radio at about ten thousand tax payers dollar per word.

No Batts Bounty, but we did have the theft of MILLIONS of taxpayer dollars, and dead Aussie kids in roof cavities along with house fires now and into the future.

No solar dream scheme, but project cut short along with electrified roofs and money borrowed from China paying for the shoddy Chinese solar panels.

No BER dream schools, but non government schools who built multiple BRICK buildings and the infrastructure they wanted for their $900,000, and the government school who got two worthless demountables off the back of a truck and a shade cloth for their $900,000. The Labor State governments all being broke at the time swooped on their respective Education infrastructure funds like the Jackson Families lawyers onto Michael’s estate.

No NBN anything as we knew we would get no noticeable or applicable speed advantage, take up rates are in single figures, the cost is more than the Snowy Hydro Scheme and from all reports nothing much has changed in regard to speed and some current users will pay more. Rank stupidity is a glowing accolade if discussing the thoughts behind the lie that the consumer or the taxpayer will get any value for the single most costly national infrastructure project in our history, the NBN.

No Carbon Tax, Bob said yes, no more to say.

Julia re Thomson, “ASK NSW LABOR” why don’t you ask them Julia; they got you your current job did they not.

No clothes, and it is ugly and vindictive and conniving and above all self serving.

ok sm as you associate your self with that.
What government bailed the bloke out.
What government credit card.
As the only honest answer is not one the allegation is the union owned the card and NSW Labors party, not the parliamentary party paid.
Here Lady's and gentlemen is the truth lies not truth are freely traded and this country faces government to come that has no regard for truth.
Consider Gillards one single lie/ retraction against the mountain of deliberate lie

TLTR,

Why? This is a blog on current affairs, why on earth should I delve into the past. Labor is in power and is stuffing it up.

My criticism of them presently is that they are not looking at the flaws in the fair work act that is crippling our retail industry, and I personally support the right for same sex marriage. However, in a one on one comparison, the present labor government is so bad that even a goat would get elected ahead of Juliar.

Ammonite,

You sound just like Juliar with the carbon tax.

SM,

Have you forgotten the "cash-for visas," scandal involving
Philip Ruddock?

Google it for yourself it's a real corker.
Dante Tan had his visa cancelled in September 2001. Then
he made a donation of $10,000 at Philip Ruddock's campaign
launch. One month after the donation the cancellation of
the Tan visa was re-instated, and six months later Dante Tan
was granted Australian Citizenship. At the time Dante Tan
was the Philippines most wanted fugitive.

And there's more,
much more in this "cash-for-visas," scandal involving
other visas being granted by the Liberal Party's
Mr Ruddock. Just Google it yourself. It makes Thompson
look as pure as the driven snow and the Libs as pure as
the driven - slush.

What's the matter with you coalition supporters ? Isn't it possible that some bloke, who had been practising Thomson's signature, broke in to his place while he was having a shower, pinched his credit card, whipped out and paid off some prostitutes with it, signed for services rendered, and then brought it back, Mr Thomson being none the wiser, and as innocent as the day is long. It sounds perfectly above-board to me.

Just because some guy is so respected and loved, that his union and his party pay some of his minor expenses - does that make him a criminal ? Is he a mass-murderer ? No ! And he's completely innocent until he is proven completely guilty, isn't he ?

Let's give the Dobell member some relief from this unwarranted persecution !

Joe

Belly:>> Consider Gillards one single lie/ retraction against the mountain of deliberate lie<<

You are missing the point here china:

The kid next door lies to me, I don't care.
The bloke in the pub lies to me I don't care.
The stranger lies to me I don't care.

My partner lies to me, I care.
My friend lies to me, I care.
My PM lies to me, I care.

It is about trust, even one lie matters, it all depends on who delivers it.

Loudmouth there are two credit cards involved and Thomson is now accused of misappropiating $100,000 over 4-5 yrs.Police forensic experts will detremine the authenticity of the signatures.

It does not look good for Thomson or the Labor party.

You are right, Arjay, and the Murdochracy papers are conducting an unremitting campaign to denigrate an innocent man, one who is completely innocent until he is proved completely guilty. Without the press, we would not have to put up with all the details of what somebody is supposed to have done, when we have other things to worry about.

And a hundred thousand dollars is not as much these days as it used to be, barely a year's pay. Or half a year's pay for a parliamentarian.

We should all drop this matter completely and leave it up to the courts. There are more important things for us to preoccupy ourselves with. What about Mary-Jo Fisher, for example ? Just because she won't be participating in parliament until after her case is dealt with, does that make her some sort of angel ? I don't think so.

Joe

Craig Thompson's signature was on the credit card receipt along with his driver licence number.The amount was for $ 2475 to an escort agency.Craig signed off on this amount to be debited on his credit card when he later viewed the statements.He did not question it or report to the police that his credit card had been used illegally.

Craig Thomson's mobile phone records also show that he rang the escort agency prior his card being used there.Craig did not report that his phone had been stolen.Very hard for Craig to weasel his way out of this one.

Arjay, if Joe is not being tongue in cheek I'm going to very surprised.

The point is correct, Craig Thompson is entitled to a presumption of innocence.

Given the public role he holds though there should be open investigation and no whiff of protection or cover up. That does not appear to be the case.

I've been trying to work out if political parties are entitled to make donations such as the alleged one

There is something very odd about a political party giving such a substantial sum of money to cover an individuals legal costs

Eg donations to political parties seem to be tax deductible in some circumstances so it seems odd that a political party could then use money that way http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-02-04/individual-tax-deductions-remain-for-political/282292

http://www.ato.gov.au/content/61195.htm

I'm guessing that the pollies have never been silly enough to allow their parties to be legally accountable for that kind of use of funds but it does seem rather odd.

Thinking about it the last enquiry established by a government in Australia which seemed to have the capability and will to make findings which went against the government which established it was the Fitzgerald Inquiry in Qld.

R0bert

It is clear that Australian politics is terminal SM, and we can link the opposition to political opportunism, self interest, misinformation and even sabotage when it comes to the Australian economy. Now attempting to force an election by means most foul, not un-reminiscent of taking advantage of a death in the Labor camp during the 70's and planting a ring in Senator using States powers, whom voted against the Govt on every occasion. Even on supply bills.

The lowest act ever in Australian political history goes to the Liberal Party. They are just trying to out do themselves. And Tony Abbott want's to be PM, any way possible, no matter what.

Have an election to vote for whom Arjay.

Robert,labor will do all their power to shut down an investigation.NSW police commissioner Scipione said he would investigate only if there was a complaint made by the Union.There will be tremendous pressure put on Scipione to conform.Perhaps the AFP need to get involved since Labor will shut it down.

Thinke2 We get rid of the most incompetent labor Govt in history and rid ourselves of the CO2 tax and its' lies.Then we put the blow torch on Tony Abbott when he becomes PM.It is the lesser of two evils.

Now you are blowing everything out of all proportion here Arjay, because if the complainant (in this case being the Union), doesn't wish to press charges there is nothing for the police to negotiate or determine. The matter for all intensive purposes is resolved.

Let's waste public money on extending investigations to the AFP ? really Arjay.

And the new NSW O'Farrell State Gov't hasn't had an influence upon the way the State Police are handling the matter?.

It's all a bit of a storm in a teacup if the complainant is not likely to press charges.

Why would the police be interested in the handling of an expense account by a corporate sales rep (for example) for prostitutes for a client, if the employer thought it acceptable or resolved ?.

It would also be deemed acceptable for an employer to dismiss or admonish some who forged the signature of another for prostitutes for a client ? ; above all, would most organisations not wish such internal matters be discussed publicly anyway.

Bringing election on through political assassination, is not a democratic process.
The timing of elections remain (in a Westminster democracy), the domain of the Gov;t of the day, and should never be the realm of the opposition and the various vested interests it represents to call the shots.

Why, Shadow Minister?

At present, every single thing you post is a critique of Labor. Criticizing labor is all well and good - I have my own criticisms of them.

The fact that you're incapable of criticizing the coalition demonstrates that you're one sided - you're in effect, a stooge for the liberals.

This renders whatever you have to say as being worth much less, than someone who can objectively make points about both sides of the fence.

Even if the Labor party did something you think is a very good idea, I'm not at all convinced you would be able to admit they've done something right.

More importantly, when the coalition does something wrong, as they frequently do, I don't think you'd be able to acknowledge it.

Thus, it would appear that there are big gaps in where you're willing to go in your criticism, meaning your criticism is worth about half that, or less, of posters, who are able to criticize both sides of the fence.

So I'll ask again - are you capable of criticizing the coalition? Can you give an example of something they've done, which you think was a bad idea? It can be a current event, by all means, we can discuss current affairs.

Or are you indeed just a stooge for the coalition?

Oh belly you are such a sook.

I could not give a toss if you decide to sook and take your ball and leave.

Grow up!

You lot are simply grasping at straws in a desperate attempt to hold on to what little dignity your beloved labor party still ha, if any.

If you are simply trying to stall, in an attempt to turn the tides and stop the rot, just remember, we all only have one life and none of us will live long enough to see that happen.

They are. Party in politic meltdown nd they have achieved this all by themselves.

Did I say in record time!

How can you make a case Arjay, for the lesser of two evil's theory.

The Govt we have provided stimulus when it was needed, at the GFC. (albeit bumbling),
have increased funding to health, education, childcare, infrastructure, disability services etc, things neglected downsized and defunded during the Howard years; have plan to tax polluters and protect punters from their onslaught.

In contrast Abbott plans to fund polluters and international mining giants with public money, slash $70 billion from the public budget to do it, in a business as usual economy, and defend the Pacific solution.

The very thing that the Gillard Gov't can't even defend in it's own High Court at this time.
A remnant of the oppositions own making in the first place, that changed the way Australians view refugee's arriving by boat. Another storm in a teacup blown out of all proportion for political advantage during the Howard years.

If you want more, lets get into the sale of valuable public assets, as an economic policy. Lesser of two evil's ? hardly Arjay.

Thinker 2.Labor have taken us from a 20 $ billion surplus to a $80 billion deficit that we know of.NSW labor admitted to a $1 billion deficit which we now find is $ 5 billion deficit.There will have to be cuts in the PS.The Dept of Climate Change BS should be the first to go.

We need to put pressure on Abbott to make the RBA the prime lender to our banks rather than borrowing from the US Fed.This will save us from total economic meltdown which is looming large on our horizon.

Abbott does not inspire me but Gillard is totally clueless.

Lexi,

Cash for visas scandal in 2003, you must really be grasping. Firstly the accusation was that an immigrant paid a lobbyist to apply on his behalf to the minister, the greens and labor never managed to produce any more than innuendo.

That there is a need for guidelines for lobbyists there is no doubt, but this accusation was about creating smoke whether or not there was a fire. It died a natural death.

TRTL,

I am a fan of competent government run with economically sound policies, so yes that makes me a liberal stooge. That you would use such language to attack me, and not any of the other clearly biased posters would imply that you are a labor stooge.

If you think I am biased, well I am, and my reasons are sound, so suck it up.

My criticisms are of the present government and the policies that affect my life. I am not aware of the coalition implementing any policies that adversely affect me at the moment. My criticisms are all supported with facts and analysis unlike the unsupported innuendo that some others post.

Thinker2

The government is clinging to power by means most foul, and protecting a corrupt minister from the law is most foul.

Thinker 2, given that I am not partisan to the current left or right politicians I say that the law must be impartial of office or bearing and we deal with the criminality of the current miscreants. I grew up on the east coast and watched the corrupt coalition in QLD and NSW for twenty years. I had the expectation of a morally upright left clearing away the nepotism and corruption so abundantly obvious in both these right led states, it never happened, Labor got into NSW and the corruption and nepotism went on unabated, Labor got into Qld and the beat also went on, just a different drummer. All the current crop of politicians are standard issues, without vision and lacking…..lacking what you may ask? Lacking everything to my mind.

SM,

Wrong again.

I'm not "grasping," as you put it.
Merely responding to your request for
any Liberal scandals in the last decade.
And the facts are on the websites - all
one has to do is Google them.

Also, the accusations that were involved in
the "Cash-for-Visas," scandal were numerous
and as a law-website clearly states -
"Cash-for Visas," Inquiry clears Ruddock -
GRUDGINGLY!" That is to say that he was cleared - yes.
But that doesn't mean he was innocent.

The Senate inquiry into ministerial indiscretion
under the Immigration Act - the Committee accused
Ruddock (and his Department) of obstruction and
called for urgent reforms. The Committee found that
lack of transparency and accountability made the
Minister for Immigration vulnerable to corruption,
the majority report said.

They also made it quite clear that the reasons the
Committee had found no evidence was because the
Immigration Department was being obstructive.

"The Committtee was denied access to relevant
department files and Officer's notes that could have
cleared the Attorney-General of any wrongdoing. "

"This was clearly done deliberately by the Government
to protect Mr Ruddock from further scrutiny."

If you're interested in the full details - Lateline
did a full coverage of this, as did the ABC, SBS, The Sydney
Morning Herald, and many other sources. Google them.

Lexi,

Senate and other enquiries are supposed to be set up on the basis of some evidence, and is used to expand the evidence base, find the root causes and recommend actions. If there was no evidence as you mentioned, this committee set up by the greens and labor looks simply like a party political beat up.

There is now evidence that Thomson corruptly tried to use his influence to get his ex wife a job.

SM,

If a Senate Committee can't do it's job properly -
because of denied access to relevant departmental files
and Officer's notes that could have cleared the accused
of any wrong-doing - then one needs to ask the question -
WHY?

Clearly this was done deliberately by the then Government
to protect Mr Ruddock from further scrutiny.

That's why Justice wears a blindfold.

"That you would use such language to attack me, and not any of the other clearly biased posters would imply that you are a labor stooge."

I think Labor have been failing miserably of late. I rather liked their original mining tax proposal, however when the slightest bit of criticism came Rudd's way, they buckled under pressure.

It's all been downhill since then and they are failing miserably to garner confidence.
My main fear is that they will sink so low, that the vastly more incompetent, populist rabble that is the opposition these days, will begin to look like a viable proposition.

Sound like the words of a Labor stooge?

I attack you, Shadow Minister, because you are by far, the most biased poster here.

You've utterly failed to respond to any of my points - you can't acknowledge that the opposition is screwing things up too, and when pressed you totally evade acknowledging this.

So yes. You're a stooge and I'm not. I can criticize both sides. Every other poster here has expressed some frustration with BOTH sides of the debate.

You can't. Therefore, you're a liberal stooge and we're not. That's the difference.

TLTR

Yup, You do sound like a labor stooge.

You don't criticise Labor directly, only chide them for not vigorously pursuing their more ridiculous policies, neither have you or any of the other labor tragics acknowledged that the reason that Labor is in the doldrums is because of their incompetent handling of just about every policy they have touched, even the ones that had potential.

This ad hominem attack on me personally can only be due to your inability to refute what I say either through lacking the material or intellect to do so.

The latest saga with Thomson shows that not only is labor incompetent but devoid of scruples. If you wish me to show even handedness by treating criminality with the same weight as petty indiscretions then you are sorely mistaken.

No, ShadowMinister.

I do chide Labor for a number of policies. Conroy's internet filter is one of the most abhorrent policies I've ever seen and I've criticized Conroy on many occasions in these threads. The factionalism within Labor ranks is ghastly and gives rise to party apparatchiks over real professionals.

That being said, Abbott has demonstrated he doesn't stand for anything except getting office and destroying the carbon tax. Everything he's done has been populism in its rawest form.

You state: "This ad hominem attack on me personally can only be due to your inability to refute what I say either through lacking the material or intellect to do so."

Careful when you use words like 'can only'. There are many potential reasons. In this very post, I refuted your accusation that I'm a labor stooge using examples and logic.

Here's a logic bomb for you - I make these attacks on you due to the content of your posts. It's not you per se, it's the fact that your posts show an inability to fairly critique both sides.

I'm saying your posts reveal your goal is not intelligent discussion to enlighten or debate. You have a very clear axe to grind. You have a motive. You have a goal. You do not seek to engage people, nor listen.

You are only here to put down one side of politics and by doing so, promote the other. There's only one way you can prove my hypothesis to be false and that's to admit the coalition also have many problems, or that Labor is not all bad, in more than an offhand manner.

If you did so, genuinely, I would withdraw my hypothesis that you are only here to act, in effect, as a public relations hack for the coalition.

But, you can't. So my logic stands, and it's you who are failing to refute my arguments. Also note that while you've insulted my intelligence, I've not insulted yours - merely your onesided diatribes, claims which I'd be willing to withdraw if you were capable of proving them false.

TRTL

"That being said, Abbott has demonstrated he doesn't stand for anything except getting office and destroying the carbon tax. Everything he's done has been populism in its rawest form."

Is absolute rubbish, and singular proof that you are guilty of exactly what you accuse me of. Your claim "I refuted your accusation that I'm a labor stooge using examples and logic." is incorrect for the reasons I gave.

While the coalition may have issues, none of them are stuffing up the country I love, and I reject the puerile notion that because I attack labor that I am a liberal stooge. I have a great desire to see Labor kicked out of office, mostly because as an Australian I am ashamed of what passes for our government, and while Abbott might not be the leader I would choose, he has single-handedly driven the stake through the heart of the party responsible.

I am a member of no party, and my contempt for Labor is shared by about 50% of the population of whom virtually none are liberal members / stooges / hacks.

SM,

Evidence please?

Simply repeating the same message over and over
again, keeping it short and simple - does not make it
so. It only makes it propaganda. Where is your
evidence that so many people support the Liberal Party?
things are changing, the press is questioning
Mr Abbott stance on many issues, he's not got the support
of many truckies (very few turned up for the Canberra
drive) butcher-shop owners didn't want him in their
shops, and BTW he did loose the last election. Despite
his attempts at tryiing to convince the Independents
to go with him and his party.

Nobody but you seems to believe your
party's rhetoric anymore. And what's all this rubbish
about your not belonging to any party? You've made it
quite clear that you're a Liberal Party supporter from
way back. TRTL has summed you up beautifully.

Lexi,

http://www.newspoll.com.au/image_uploads/110806%20Federal%20Voting%20Intention%20&%20Leaders%20Ratings.pdf

I would appear to have support from Newspoll, Galaxy polling, Essential research etc.

Where is the evidence for your claims?

Well, well, well,

It looks as though the Health services union has been shamed into action, and are finally going to refer Thomson to the police.

I guess complaints from their members has trumped loyalty to Labor.

Lexi:>>the press is questioning Mr Abbott stance on many issues, he's not got the support of many truckies (very few turned up for the Canberra drive) butcher-shop owners didn't want him in their
shops,<<

Lexi when I review the activism I have witnessed in Australia over the past thirty years it was almost exclusively generated by the Left, be it union, lobby, or community based groups the Left orchestrated them all, I marched in many anti Viet moratoriums to keep me at home, I have tracked to desolate places to support our environment, I have attended meetings or gatherings focused on changing the existing laws on various matters and all have been Left agendas.

Lexi the protests from the "common pleb" as opposed to the activist speaks volumes, Aussies have never got off their behinds as they have now and made an effort to convey their dismay over a government or legislation since the grand Eureka stockade bitch. I speak to professions, I speak to management and I speak to working plebs five days a week and even though the polls reflection that 28% of individuals support the Gillard Labor government, it is not evident among them.

So I can only extrapolate that the majority of the 28% are not in the business or work environment. So my appraisal of the Labor support base would segment into the unemployed citizen and unemployed migrants, the stay at home benefits recipients, and a load of Belly’s and ideologues looking for a cause.

Selective reporting from the free to air stations is expected as a payback to Labor for dropping license fees. The first Rally in Canberra was reported in the hundreds, but there were thousands, the second rally was reported as a thousand but there were four thousand and the convoy was dispersed so as to minimize the impact as well. The reporting was stage managed to minimize the impact but everybody except yourself and ideologues know we the majority have had enough, enough failure, enough lies, and enough debt for us and our kids.

Lexi "butcher-shop owners didn't want him in their shops" not enough detail to be certain what's true but the reporting of the detail is all pretty similar to this

'"This was a long pre-arranged visit (to the shop in the Canberra suburb of Dickson) but once a media alert went out the business in question received an aggressive phone call, as I understand it," Mr Abbott said.' http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8286490/swan-is-a-mug-with-carbon-tax-mp - I've not heard any contradiction of that story.

If true then on the face of it it's about a butcher deciding that the risks to his or herself or the business from Abbott's opponents just wasn't worth it. Stand over tactics.

R0bert

Dear RObert,

I received my information from the following source:

http://www.news.com.au/national/tony-abbotts-meat-and-greet-goes-off/story-e6frfkvr-1226116733049

Perhaps the butcher decided that Mr Abbott's entitlement to
warn us that the price of meat will rise under the carbon
tax - was a bit of a furphy - and wanted no part of it.
Especially when economic modelling shows a piece of steak
will cost about one cent more.

Sonofgloin.I went to the C02 tax protest on the 16th Aug.There were at least 6500 people there.Some say 10,000.Fox news reported 400 protestors.I don't know about the ABC but people were telling them to tell the truth this time.

I did learn from an ex-CSIRO scientist that the culture and independance of this organisation has been seriously compromised.The Fed Govt now dictates areas of enquiry and sets the parameters of such investigations to meet their agendas.The CSIRO is no longer a truely independant scientific body that seeks truth without fear or favour.

Jo Novas' husband Prof David Evans worked for our Govt as a computer climate modeller.He like man of us truley believed that AGW was happening.It all started in 1980 and $ billions were poured into the science,but by 1995 the evidence no longer supported the theory.With so many scientific umbilical cords attached to AGW caused by CO2,the ship would not turn around.Besides man was defacing the planet and the noble scientific community were performing a humanitariarn task by having this new power, even if based on a lie.The banking elites and Wall St also wanted the CO2 tax to feed their new derivative scams for more power.

The Greens fell in line since they now agreed that only a few on this planet could live the life of such energy/resource consumption and they the educated elite might be amongst the chosen that would not suffer their austerity.Much like the communist elites the Greens would be saved because their cause was just and right.

Lexi that story contained the claim as well "Mr Abbott was less amused by circumstances and told reporters at the second address that the Dickson "visit had long been pre-arranged ... and when once the media alert went out, the business received an aggressive phone call" as did every other news story I could find on it.

I could not find any that gave any evidence of that Abbott had made up the claim about the call.

Abbott's no shining light but peoples desperation to believe the worst of him is telling. If anything the unfairness of much of the attack on Abbott gives me reason to be very sceptical of most of the criticism of him. Like his answer to a question some time back where he admitted to "feeling threated by homosexuals" the response said far more about those who wanted to make an issue of the comments than about Abbott.

R0bert

None the less Lexi makes a good case in point with Ruddock, if we are to call examples of hypocrisy SM in this case.

Regardless of any election bought in through the back door, the fate of Australia is in the lap of the gods. Unfortunately Australians don't really understand who the villains are.

They are of course the very same Liberal ideological loonies that reeked changes upon the Trade Practices and the Industrial Relations Acts.

Except the new even more maniacal Abbott version that proposes to slash and burn the public purse and services, to the tune of $70 billion, while paying the polluters to continue with business as usual. No doubt they have further plans to de-regulate rights at work even further causing further damage to job security and family life for most people, they plan to further give business an open reign to decide for us, about the future and charge what they like for goods and services without compensation to the end user/consumer.

Try and sell that baby in an election !.

If we voted for that, against the Gov't we have, despite it's short comings, we would be, the stupidest nation on earth in my estimation, considering the enviable position we find ourselves in today compared to the rest of the world.

If the Gov't we have, has the guts to seek to re-regulate in the area's of the Trade Practices Act, particularly in consumer protection and re-introduces the notion of ethical profit margins, it will have my vote SM.

If the Gov't we have has the guts to make polluters pay and ensure that the cost of that, comes out of their margins, and is not passed onto consumers will have my vote.

Bending over for corporations is not an admirable, nor dignified Aussie activity SM.

"""
Except the new even more maniacal Abbott version that proposes to slash and burn the public purse and services, to the tune of $70 billion, while paying the polluters to continue with business as usual.
"""

The public purse is bursting at the seams and needs to be slashed and burned, nothing wrong with that!

"""
No doubt they have further plans to de-regulate rights at work even further causing further damage to job security.
"""

You are always free to start your own business and be accountable for your own job security, rather than being a parasite begging for government assistance to look after you because you haven't got the guts!

"""
If the Gov't we have, has the guts to seek to re-regulate in the area's of the Trade Practices Act, particularly in consumer protection and re-introduces the notion of ethical profit margins, it will have my vote SM.
"""

You know I've never seen a gun put to anyone's head for leaving their low paid job and trying to better themselves or when they had to decide what to spend their money on. Why should government regulate such things? I've never needed their help in those decisions, what makes you so special?

"""
Bending over for corporations is not an admirable, nor dignified Aussie activity SM.
"""

Then don't buy their products or services, pretty easy. And if you feel you're forced to in some strange demented way, perhaps you could start a convoy with fellow disgruntled plebs and bring to others attention your ill feelings toward them. Why should government be made to do this for you at my expense? What you're really saying is, you haven't the guts to stand up for yourself and want someone else to do the dirty work for you and you want others to pay for it!

Not much of a thinker really are you, maybe when you progress to thinker 3 you might get it!

I've obviously struck a raw nerve RawMustard, but I insist that my comments have nothing whatsoever to do with bludgeing off the state, but point out the fact that the balance is out of whack.

What's wrong exactly with polluters paying for pollution, or changing their behaviour?, and legislating for that ?.

Now that Thomson has been referred to the police, and the HSU has stopped protecting him, the question now arises about what part Juliar played in the $90 000 -150 000 hand out to Thomson to keep him solvent.

This scandal is the ultimate wedge for labor and the choice is to keep its integrity or government. I am sure that this scandal will be kept alive until either Juliar ditches Thomson, or there is a new election.

this issue raises many other issues
somewhere out there is a treasuror...[who didnt do his/her duty]
there is an auditer/accountant who didnt hold to account..and signed off on an audit

here we have the leader of the 'house' saying let work fair do its 'job'..[ie its been doing 'its job' for 2 YEARS]..on this case
HOW MANY MORE YEARS?

lest we forget..in uk we got kids in jail the next day
here we got OFFICIAL malfeasance...5 YEARS after the fact
and still we got nothing but spin

here we got mr albeingsleazy
saying let the process do its thing
WHAT IS WORK FAIRS 'thing'?

stall...investigate..YET NEVER instigate?

here we got a potential capital crime..where a union BAILS out a union organiser..being investigated by a union investigation unit
set up by the union party patsies..to serve union matters

thuis whole matter STINKS to high heaven
here we have a masive collusion to decieve YOU..!
you who pay your union DUES..so others can steal 100.000

so a fool with YOUR credit card
can use it as HIS private slush fund
so his pary can make 5 NEW TAXES..to pay for his LATEST cash card

while him and his cronies..can build an nbn MONOPOLY
install a new tax on air..
tax smokers..and subvert the right
to hold patent rights on YOUR own brand..

the list goes on
then we got a PRIVATE agrement of independants
willing to look the other way..JUST to get SPECIAL ADVANTAGES TOO

are we being served by this
or serviced like a dog in heat?

and then we got the party loyalists
my party right or wrong..[comeon you guys..YOU CANT TRUST ANYONE
who's first loyalty is to a party machine..[ran by faceless backdoor card holding oppertuinists]

talk about defending the indefensable
or taking the plank from THYNE own eyes FIRST

I am an ex trade union official.
Before that I was for 38 years a trade union on the job delegate.
I have always been a member of the Australian Workers Union, this country's best union.
I had been offered an officials job once before an amalgamation, twice after it.
If Guilty, and I have said this in other Shadow Minister threads, AND THAT I THINK HE IS he is a grub.
He will not be the only trade union official, to thieve from his membership.
They too, without exception are maggots.
My frankness never let me in to the very inner circles of the movement.
I live and die by my belief, the union movement exists only, in its members interests.
I paid my dues,10 times ten put the union in front of my self interests.
I left the job I loved, in the name of my members, and in the face of a Union boss unfit to wash the floors in his office.
But this thread is contemptuous, its purposes not to highlight this seeming criminal act from a contemptuous person.
The investigation is under way the law will have its way.
It is in the name of forcing an early election trying to convict with out trial this man.
In the name of JUSTICE? Tony Abbott broke his word and broke every rule of civilized parliamentary conduct.
In stopping Simon Crean going to a memorial for a great Australian
Margret Olly.
Look Australia, at the conduct of this opposition and at its followers, know this, they are not fit to rule under this man.
Know too, it was this mans union in 2008 that bought his conduct to notice not the lie SM uses.
A week ago Abbott taunted our PM for not facing Parliament, she was at the funeral of a former member!

Arjay, all you say is correct of course, it seems you and I are the only ones on this forum who attempt to discuss the disease rather than the symptoms. Unemployment, service industry jobs with no future, and a culture of state benefit supported youth will see the issues in the UK soon become apparent here, these are symptoms, the disease is FREE TRADE. Re the CSIRO what a partisan government joke.

Belly as a kid and later I recall all these Labor luminaries calling to my father’s house, Calwell, Hawke, Wran, Keating (never seen Goth) and all the union bosses at one time or another. These men and that Labor party have GONE. Your trade union movement has fled as well, the rank and file such as in branches as Balmain did have a major input into policy direction, and in fact you could say the branches wagged the tail of the political Labor dog. But that is not the case now; the unions have become the tool of the university educated FABIAN lawyers that run your party.

Let me remind you of a statement from a real Labor man Ben Chifley, when he spoke to the NSW ALP Conference in 1949;

"I try to think of the Labor movement, not as putting an extra sixpence into somebody’s pocket, or making somebody Prime Minister or Premier, but as a movement bringing something better to the people, better standards of living, and greater happiness to the mass of the people. We have a great objective—the light on the hill—which we aim to reach by working for the betterment of mankind not only here but anywhere we may give a helping hand. If it were not for that, the Labor movement would not be worth fighting for."

What party are you fighting for Belly?

Well,

It looks as though Thomson was a regular client of these brothels.

I wonder if he got everyday rewards?

SM
Have you appointed yourself the Judge and Jury on this. Clearly the case is now in the hands of NSW police and they can investigate the claims. Throw away comments as above are in the Alan Jones shock jock category.

I agree Pelican.

Also, the issue is whether or not Thomson misappropriated funds from the union NOT whether he frequented brothels.

Imagine how many pollies would be still standing if all politicians (of any political stripe) were expelled for using the services of a prostitute.

Of course, as has been pointed out by other posters before me, Shadow Minister is nothing more than a Liberal Party stooge, so maybe I, Pelican and others are expecting a little too much from the abilities, such as they are, of SM.

Sonofgloin,I'm hoping people will wake up soon.The NAB borrowed $4.5 billion from the US Fed in 2008.It raised a further $3 billion on the share market.We have gone guarantors for the banks.The banks are said to have 20% of their assets in worthless derivatives.They don't look real safe.

Thomson's trial will be delayed for months perhaps years, so he will still hold his seat.So we'll have to find another way of bringing on an early election.

Dear Ammonite,

You're absolutely spot on regarding Shadow Minister.
But then that's all they have. Not a word about one
of their own scandals. I guess shoplifting , and assault
is ok - in their party. But the prices of meat going up
by approximately one cent is blamed on the carbon tax.
And they wonder why they lost the last election.

Pelican,

With all the tons of corroborating evidence coming it, it is clear to me beyond a reasonable doubt that Thomson is guilty of corruption and fraud, and that the federal labor in trying to cover it up has just taken a huge bath in the sleaze and corruption that it carries. The longer that Juliar tries to cover for this grub, the more she carries the stink by association.

I, and I am certain that others are going to keep hammering at this until Juliar takes the only honourable avenue open to her and expels Thomson from the labor party, and withdraws labor's financial support. Until she does, the only way is down.

Ammonite/Lexi/Pelican a fair number of good honest posters in that lot.
Each have taken me to task, and I look at myself after such,as balance and under standing exists in their words.
I may get close and often, but few can keep up with the insults a few throw about here.
From SOG Shadow Minister, expect no balance.
This thread promotes the view, we convict without trial a man.
While sitting on the fact only one federal parliamentarian currently faces charges.
SOG, I weary of your miss placed view of your ability to understand.
All those great past men of my party are gone.
But greatness still exists, while never part of the inner circle I have eaten with todays great leaders, Bill Shorten, Paul Howes Bill Ludwig.
Neville Wran Bob Carr branch leaders of my union who like myself acted as every past one did.
I am privileged to have spoken many times to the next NSW ALP premier Robo , no better unionist/honest politician ever existed.
You blokes can now have this thread no intention to see the issue exists here.
PS Bob Carr is the best NSW leader in my lifetime.

Belly,"Bob Carr is the best leader in my lifetime." You have got to be joking Belly.This guy is all about nepotism and opportunism.He called desalination plants bottled electricity and said they were an environmental disaster.So off trots Bob to the Middle East and does a 180 deg turn.Bob builds a $2 billion white elephant ,resigns and gets a consultancy with Macquarie Bank for $500,000 pa,to get the prime NSW Govt contracts to milk the taxpayer.

Your Union supports all this criminality Belly,and you should all be utterly ashamed of yourelves.What bold faced liars and opportunists!

As we spread out on party lines, I despair that the inaugural speech of the newly elected DLP Senator appealed to me. Lots of talk of Chifley and Labor values.

Equally, I was appalled to learn that BHP made soaring profits this year, $45.1 billion. Isn't that the very same company that could not afford to sustain 1000 Aussie workers jobs in steel production this week ?.

In other financial news today, all the other players in monopolistic or duopolistic essential services (food fuel gas electricity etc), all reported soaring profit gains.

And not a pay rise on the horizon to compensate for the consumer. This is the both the problem, and the legacy of the Howard Gov't.
And the sale of essential services assets in combination with the ideological destruction of the Trade Practices Act, is the fault of the Howard Gov't. Although Labor Gov'ts at a State level are equally culpable.

The privatised essential services sector is the reason why consumers are experiencing prices at 10 times + the gazetted rate of inflation, or coercive manipulation of margins, such as we see in petrol pricing.

These Business practices are only possible in the absence of adequate regulation. Something that was in place prior to the Howard years.

"Is it not the job of a good Gov't, to at least seek to preserve the living standards of it's constituents ?." I believe it is RM.
The Gov't we have has at least sought to do that.

With or without Craig Thomson SM.

International Mining Conglomerates produced the most gains in profits in today's market reports, in a boom time.

Shame we haven't got the benefits in place of Kevin Rudd's original Mining Super Profits Tax so we could have had an appropriate piece of those Super Profits from OUR resources.

It's also a shame that 60%+ of jobs provided in Australia by International Mining Conglomerates are casual. Even local Miners have been found to be exploiting indigenous workers and have been in fact paying them $50 a day, and making them sleep outside (rough), in the guise of a Training Program. (I will provide an ABC link).

thinker2

...Yea, but all parties are guilty of perpetuating the now long standing scam of slave labour dressed up as traineeships… not just blacks caught up in that one…

The extent of the cover up attempt by labor is slowly leaking out.

"Mr Williamson, a former ALP president, had proposed his own motion the night before that made no mention of NSW police, noted that the matter was before Fair Work Australia and would have placed a gag on any further statements by union leaders about Mr Thomson. However, Mr Williamson went to Newcastle on the day of an HSU meeting in Sydney, and was outmanoeuvred by rebels who were determined that there would be a police investigation and they would not be silenced."

"Factional sources said many ALP figures thought Mr Williamson had the Thomson matter "in hand", and would be alarmed they had been blindsided."

This is further compounded by reports that Juliar Gillard's staffers knew of this in 2009, and contacted the fair work tribunal.

Belly:>> SOG, I weary of your miss placed view of your ability to understand.
PS Bob Carr is the best NSW leader in my lifetime.<<

Re my ability to understand, you mistake my utterances of facts as an ideological smear campaign, Belly if this government were credible in any way what so ever I would recognize it, but they are hopeless. What you do not seem to understand is that the agenda set for Australia by the current ALP leadership is driven by Fabian ideology imported directly from Britain.

Your comment about the “quality” of Bob Carr differs from Nifty Nev’s appraisal; I will quote his rational thoughts on Bob after I have enlightened you on what “quality” of a premier Bob was to his constituency.

Bob came in because Barry was twenty seats down in 88, it took Bob seven years to get into power and he held it for ten. Bob’s sustained failure to deliver on big-ticket policy items, such as State rail, roads, hospitals and public safety should have seen him gone second term, but the electorate are slow leaning and Bob spins like a top.

Under Bob investment in the housing market dropped as TAX after TAX was lumbered on the worker who had an investment property as well as a domicile, tradesmen went north and south. Under Bob NSW lagged the nation in economic and jobs growth, where we lead the nation until then, remember the premier state….Anyway this is what Neville Wran said of Bob Carr in 2005:

“Mr. Carr's greatest achievement "was to keep winning elections".

A fair call on the achievements of the Carr Premiership. He is the modern Labor FABIAN, a real ALP socialist, he ran off to the usury trade via Macquarie bank. Latte socialists, green socialists, capitalist socialists, where are the real socialists?

True diver dan.

My question "Is it not the job of a good Gov't, to at least seek to preserve the living standards of it's constituents ? ", remains un-addressed I note SM.

Having presumed that it is, I would also suggest that it was once also "the role or obligation of Business to provide jobs. Not just jobs, but real jobs with real wages and conditions", in the truly free market economy that Australia once enjoyed.

Jobs that did not erode your living standards as you work, or provided uncertainty and lack of security as we see most Australian consumers and taxpayers facing today.

The Big end of town is making most of the money today and paying the least of the tax, whilst no longer obliged to make any real commitment to their employees, such as wages indexed to the rate of inflation or job security, thereby maintaining living standards,

Is anyone controlling their anti-competitive behaviour in the margins that they are reaping in the privatised essential services area's of the economy after purchasing them for a song.

No, the Gov't is not!. They (big business) are not doing anything illegal.

Manipulative margin juggling and collusion such as we see in petrol pricing today, was not legal prior to the Howard years and is the most obvious example of the destruction of the T P Acts we see today.

Un-trameled regulatory environments lower the bar for most people. This is what has happened and todays Govt really has no way to stop the continuing decline of living standards for most people without strengthening/restoring the regulatory environment and reinstating competition and previously understood Australian employment principles.

If they tried, big business and commercial media editorials would combine in massive multi million dollar pre election ad campaigns.

We are **it in a bucket I think, and the last thing we need, is an election.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/mps-on-both-sides-want-thomson-to-be-treated-gently-20110827-1jfgg.html
In the dark mess that is Australian Politics and a lost inventive/destructive Media, here is evidence of what the best informed already knew.
On both sides of the house better, more caring people exist.
I am quite sure immovably sure, the intention has not been justice.
It has been bringing down a government.
This man, not yet found guilty , yet, is but fodder.
For an opposition on record for white washing the sins of its own.
If and gee its a big if, Labor survives an election, it will not be because of the great legislation it is getting past.
It will survive if and only if, a brick can be taken from the wall of Deceit Abbott's section of conservative Australia has constructed.
Nothing then,can save the landslide that would follow.

Belly,

"I am quite sure immovably sure, the intention has not been justice. It has been bringing down a government. This man, not yet found guilty , yet, is but fodder."

No kidding! If Thomson was not key to Juliar's government, I am sure she would have cut him loose in an instant. But she is here defending him, and labor is trying to stop him being prosecuted and going bankrupt. Their involvement has sunk Juliar up to the neck in sleaze.

It is the most perfect wedge, Juliar can maintain government or credibility, not both. And don't believe for an instant that Labor would not do the same if the shoe was on the other foot.

Hardly true Sm. No one stoops as low as the Coalition. When it comes to exploiting parliamentary and legislative process. They have a history of it.

It is definitely true that the precedents for the low acts in Australian politics, have some star Coalition players, like Joe Bjelke and Sir Robert Askin, even John Howard with children overboard, GST, and Worchoices, and in the tradition of the Coalition, today we see Scott Morrison and Tony Abbott promoting xenophobia over a few boat people, for political gain, promoting climate change scepticism, threatening economic disruption of the nation unless they can have power, whilst acting on behalf of cronies and corporate buddies when it comes to the regulatory environments and taxation system.

A proud history is it not ?. Labor might be low enough to be focus group driven today, but the Coalition could crawl under a snakes belly, with a top hat on, SM.

"children overboard, GST, and Worchoices"

Interesting list
- children overboard, either a deliberate lie or gross failure to check the facts.
- GST, an announced policy taken to the electorate during the preceding election. No subsequent changes in the rate despite scare campaigns about that. You may not like the GST but in terms of "low acts" it's not a contender.
- Workchoices, a comment on the ABC last night "For many economists, the unsung hero of the global financial crisis was WorkChoices, the system in place for much of the worldwide recession." http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-29/business-industry-bodies-urge-workplace-law-review/2861268 It wasn't put to the electorate at the preceding election and deserves a thumbs down on that basis.

R0bert

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/sa-liberal-senator-probed-on-use-of-chauffeur-driven-cars/story-fn59niix-1226124867815
The bloke has not been charged.
We should not judge him yet.
And understand most federal politicians like this are not convicted.
Too that Conservatives in trouble have white wash in instant spray on 44 gallon drums.
Any comments?
It is no use in defaming Labor so some will wait until a chance to target them comes up?

Belly from the article you referenced "But fellow Liberal senators were angry with Senator Edwards, including several who witnessed the incident last week after he had made his maiden speech."

The Lib's have protected their own in the past but nothing I'm seeing currently looks remotely like what's going on with Thomson.

Not sure what consequences apply to the misuse of Comcars, time will tell what's done about it. Hopefully he will will be given a very big wake up call.

Mary Jo Fisher has been charged and will as I understand it face court. If the claims I've seen are true her case is about an isolated incident which occurred in the context of depression, not a justification but quite different to the allegations against Thomson and no sign of party involvement to try and protect her from the consequences.

There is an old piece on Crikey about Qld Labor under Beattie which sum's up what we've come to expect from too many of our pollies

http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/16/crikey-says-43/
The changes of laws about misleading parliament to protect Gordon Nuttall perhaps being the jewel in the crown (although not mentioned in the article the standing joke about cabinet papers was probably the next best).

R0bert

The longer this scandal peculates, the more sordid details come to light.

Not only did Thomson "suddenly remember" to declare payments from the Labor party, just as they were exposed by newspapers, but the Labor party "forgot" to declare the $80 000 worth of free rental they received from the HSU.

From this it would appear that Labor and the unions feel that the law only applies to other people. Both appear fundamentally corrupt.

Belly, as far as your comment on Thomson is concerned "The bloke has not been charged. We should not judge him yet." I am afraid the horse has bolted. What has been exposed is a Labor / union cover up trying to protect Thomson from facing due process.

There is so much damning evidence against the grub that his explanations and protestations of innocence are beyond belief.

So much for the presumption of innocence SM and the separation of powers.

I certainly wouldn't stoop so low as call someone a stooge or grub SM, but you are definitely of the "born to rule" variety.

Making proclamations has become the substance of the Coalition rhetoric of late and they work on the theory that if you repeat something enough times, people start to believe it, no matter how wildly inaccurate the rhetoric is. Throw in a few adjectives describing character to flavour the dissent and voila Coalition Policy.

A good opposition would allow the Gov't to govern, as the result of the recent election determines. It would build on it's own policy's in the preparation for the next election, not block and knock and promise to reverse anything the elected Gov't of the day seeks to do.

The Federal Coalition opposition are acting as if a Gov't in exile, and wherever possible using State powers to frustrate even sabotage the course of the elected Gov't, such as leaning on the NSW police to act from the benches of the State Gov't on the Thomson matter, is not democracy in action, it is most probably the misuse of state powers, to assist the causes of their Federal buddies, just itching too have an election. "Any sort of election will do".

Same thing Joh did when he sent a "ring in Senator" to Canberra to un-democratically change the balance of power in 1975.

T2,

Presumption of innocence is for the courts, which CT has been assiduously avoiding, and labor has been shielding him.

By your rational Adolf Hitler was never found guilty in a court and should be presumed innocent.

While Shadow Minister I did use that quote I think you should have read my last link, it was used in reference to one of yours.
And just a few thoughts.
CT will know, you and I too, after the investigation, if he must face court.
Mate, gee not the right word, but are things ok, yes know that ok day is a bit further on but bloke, are you right?
OFF late you let the anger out ,not seen you swear this much, not seen you this loose.
You did want that thought about CT not facing up to a charge yet to be laid to be seen as funny?
Balance,some say you give us balance here?
Let me see you want a suspended sentence for this man?
Before he is charged,ok so far.
By suspended sentence we mean a Lynching now thats it isn't it?
Now keep the rope, We can nick in and get the bloke with the car pool problems and that lady senator.
No mate not me, I will let the courts have a look.
How are you going to handle the tripe like this your side will get AG?
BET YOU WILL SAY FAIR GO BLOKE .

No SM, that is in your assessment. What I am saying simply is that democracy works better, when there is a separation of powers.

When the judiciary do there duty in accordance with the law without the interference of Gov't, I feel best represented.

Gov't in a democracy should never influence or place pressure upon it's enforcement agencies or judiciary to prosecute, particularly political opponents. We see this type of activity in 3rd world countries, don't we? SM. Or am I just imagining it.

Craig Thomson may have used a credit card to procure prostitutes SM, and the Gov't may have acted in behest of his preservation within Parliament, but neither placed pressure upon agencies beyond the Parliament as George Brandis did with letters and phone calls to the State Attorney General to lobby for such.

In this action designed to de-stabilise a sitting Gov't a new political low, has been reached in my view SM. And for the first time in Australian political history in my memory , has a Federal Opposition exerted direct influence upon a State Gov't of the same colour, resulting in pressure being placed on a State enforcement instrument to investigate. And prior too any complainant having presented a complaint.

In addition, the complainant the HSU or their CEO having been influenced by publicity and perhaps urging, has presented as a complainant there after, and in effect, has changed or perverted the natural course of justice for Craig Thomson.

As wild a scenario as you could claim it too be SM, it is now possible that Liberal Party have in fact made it impossible for Craig Thomson to get a fair hearing on this matter.

But you don't care that this basic tenet of Democracy is being manipulated here, do you SM ?. It is power at any cost for you isn't it.

T2

"but neither placed pressure upon agencies beyond the Parliament as George Brandis did with letters and phone calls to the State Attorney General to lobby for such."

Perhaps you know something that the rest of Australia does not? Not even the labor party has made this assertion.

Whereas the Labor party's interference in this criminal case is clear, and influence right from the top is being used to prevent justice from being seen.

Is it not true ? SM, that George Brandis, sent a letter to the NSW Police advocating the investigation of Craig Thomson.

Was it not at least, or is it not at least possible, that a phone call was made to the appropriate NSW Gov't Minister, in order that influence be exerted upon the outcome of the decision making process of the NSW police or prosecution, prior too the complainant making a complaint. This is my question?. And is this politically motivated ?.

I think it is 80% political and 20% legitimate.

T2

For this to be true, the NSW attorney general needs to be at the beck and call of the minister, and the NSW minister needs to be willing to risk his entire career for his federal colleague. Anything is possible, but this is highly improbable.

Brandis as Shadow attorney General is entirely within his rights to refer a case to the NSW attorney general, and it is entirely appropriate that he inform the minister that he is taking action in his state. If there were skulduggery I doubt he would have announced it.

Secondly is it not possible that Julia Gillard was trying to influence the fair work investigation when her staffer contacted the official?

Both are obviously fair questions SM. In the end the NSW Police have referred the matter to the VIC Police recommending that the matter of criminal prosecution be not pursued due to lack of evidence.

Unfortunately this renders the case against Thomson now defunct, and little more than political opportunism at it's worst. And the evidence presented by Brandis , specifically less than adequate evidentially to prove the alleged case against Thomson.

And whilst we are discussing probabilities, it's most probably in keeping with the Abbott tenure at the helm of the opposition, to consider any small distraction capable of distorting the course of the Labor Minority Govt, worth a try.

The bottom line for Australia , is that this is the last thing we really need right now.

Thinker2,

From the statements from the police, there is no criminal case as of yet, as it is not illegal for Thomson to use a credit card in his name to pay for prostitutes, neither is it illegal to approve the expenses if he has the authority to do so.

This is hardly an exoneration, it just means that he could spend union members funds with impunity.

What is more interesting is the revelations today that shonky contracts were awarded for which Thomson and Williamson allegedly got handsome back handers. This is all signs of endemic corruption in the unions, and government formed with ex union thugs of dubious ethics.

http://www.news.com.au/national/silly-me-accused-mp-told-police/story-e6frfkvr-1226133191756
I question Shadow Ministers thoughts on this link.
Give the total lack of room to move for a as yet not convicted ALP person.
To be honest I think she will escape prosecution.
Because of her illness/status/political party, not in the mood to add to her problems
However SM are you prepared to address these issues, how did a shadow attorney general not know it had to be Victoria not NSW investigating this matter.
Do you think SM intervention on this senators case by federal Labor to the extent your mob have would be acceptable?

Belly,

What point are you trying to make?

MJF will be tried and probably convicted, but is unlikely to get anything that will disqualify her. I am sure that if she is convicted, she will fact disciplinary action by the liberal party.

However, how does the theft of $92 compare with the systematic and organised fraud by Thomson and Williamson of $hundreds of thousands, and the abuse of funds by Ludwig.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national-party-mp-for-clarence-steve-cansdell-resigns/story-e6freuy9-1226138865091
I am sure Shadow Minister will be hurt, as I am.
Hope some one took the Halo opposition members are issued with back as the bloke left the house.
The link highlights a National member, under investigate leaving Parliament.
He actually took the blame!
We should all be aware far too many on both sides, sell us out for so little.

interesting devil-elopments..in this ongoing revealation

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3319922.htm

but more revealing

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3319925.htm

its worth quoting in full

""Transcript
ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The Health Services Union
has withdrawn its affiliation from the ALP.

Kathy Jackson,
welcome to Lateline.

KATHY JACKSON, NATIONAL SECRETARY,
HEALTH SERVICES UNION: Thank you, Ali.

ALI MOORE: HSU is a very big union.
Choosing to cut ties with the ALP
*on the very day the Prime Minister talks about the need*
to reform the party and actually grow the membership

was it the right decision to disaffiliate?

KATHY JACKSON: I think it was the right decision
to disaffiliate,..but for different reasons of why..I think that's occurred.

Firstly,I think that the disaffiliation should have happened,
but I don't think..it should have happened..the way it did happen.

I think that this is
another Sussex Street special*
..?

where they think..they can disaffiliate
and then,..once all this heat is off the Government,..!

..the Sussex Street boys will go back into,..
*you know..[i dont need to explain common knowlwedge]

[sussex boys]...have the union...
[and are..]..going back into the ALP coverups

What I was seeking was..that we disaffiliate,
but if we are to re-affiliate,..the re-affiliation
*must go..to a vote of the membership.

And that motion was defeated,
[BECAUSE}..*it wasn't even argued...!

ALI MOORE: You're supporting what the Liberals are saying
they're claiming this was to shield Labor..from collateral damage?

KATHY JACKSON: Well, I believe so.

It gives me no pleasure to say that.
I think that the right thing was to disaffiliate,
*but not because..to shield the Government,

but to disaffiliate..for the right reasons,
which is:..the members want answers...!

[re major colluded systematic fraud]

If Mr Thomson..and others aren't giving answers,
then..the union members deserve answers...!

ALI MOORE:By disaffiliating.

KATHY JACKSON:That's always been our position.

ALI MOORE:You actually think by disaffiliating,
you'll be able to get greater clarity..for your members?

KATHY JACKSON: I believe so.

The members also need to understand is,
if we are to re-affiliate..that has to be..*a membership vote...!

It cannot be the Sussex/Street boys
going back into...
[the same same?]..

give the union..back to the ALP...[membership]..

That's not..how it works...[presently]

ALI MOORE:I'm wondering how disaffiliation
can provide greater clarity.

What does it give you as an advantage;
what does it give members..as an advantage?

[maybe a union there for THEM
not for self advantage and a free lunch
then into a safe seat?]..?

KATHY JACKSON: I think it's a total red herring. I think they've thrown it in thinking that Kathy Jackson will back off, because she won't be a member of the administrative committee of the Labor Party or any other forum.

I do not seek that, I don't seek pre-selection; I don't seek to be on the Labor Party administrative committee. I am. I am there at the moment representing members of the union.

If that's ... if they don't want us to be there, this is fine.

This is not about the ALP. It's about bringing integrity and accountability to the Health Services Union, full stop.

ALI MOORE:There were a number of other decisions made at today's union council meeting -we'll look at the decisions in a moment.

You didn't agree with them.

The mere fact the motions got through;..you weren't in the majority, were you?..Is the council not representative of your members

are they not voted for every four years?

KATHY JACKSON: They are,..they are,
but I believe the council..is not representative of the membership.

*The 50 or so councillors on the telephone hook-up today are definitely not representative of the membership.

I've had hundreds and hundreds of emails from members and the general public saying, "Keep going, don't capitulate,..I suppose, to the bully boys of Sussex Street..and the bully boys within the Health Services Union."

I'm not stopping.

ALI MOORE:But does that mean that the membership has changed
since the last election..for the union council representatives?

KATHY JACKSON:I think what's changed is:
on amalgamation,..in May of 2010,..with Victorian branch joining the HSU NSW branch,

I think they thought that
we were going to go along..for the magic carpet ride

I'm not going on a magic carpet ride

This is not, you know ...I'm not in a...

today I felt like I was in some scene
from Married to the Mob...It's just ridiculous.

You could sell tickets to this...This is about making sure that HSU members..*get answers..from their leadership

about where our money is spent.

If it is misappropriated and misused,
our members deserve answers...!

It's farcical. It's totally farcical. Strike Force Carnarvon has been established. Let's put that to one side.

ALI MOORE: That's the police investigation?

KATHY JACKSON: That's the police investigation. What I was seeking today was that independent body was set up where the Institute of Chartered Accountants and the Law Society nominate people to investigate the HSU, with no official of the HSU - including myself - being part of that.

It has to be arms-length from the union, so the members have transparency. That did not occur. Instead, we have a group of mates judging a group of mates. We're not judge and jury.

ALI MOORE: Why is it important to have a union inquiry, given, as you said, there is the police inquiry. There is also the Fair Work inquiry. You want a union inquiry to run concurrently with those?

KATHY JACKSON: I want ... the test for the police ... what the police are doing is a criminal investigation.

What I'm seeking an internal investigation to the HSU
*by independent people, arms-length from the union -not me,
not the president, not the general secretary,
not any of the other officials.

That has not occurred..!
We owe to our membership ...forget criminal charges,
they're there..on one side.

If there has been other misappropriation of funds,
how do we let out contracts,..what is the tender process?

There just isn't, you know?
We can't allow these matters to continue as they have been.

We amalgamated in good faith.
Our members feel, in Victoria, that they've been sold short.

I did not go into this process to become ... to participate in running a corporation...!

We don't run a corporation.
We represent working men and women in the health industry.

ALI MOORE: You say that you've had quite a large lot of feedback from those men and women today. How many signatures do you need on a petition to get today's decisions overturned?

KATHY JACKSON: Five per cent of the membership, so it's not going to be hard. I'm prepared to take ... I was asked earlier when I was going to resign over this. I'm not resigning, I'm going nowhere. I'm going to make sure our members get the answers they deserve from every official of this union.

ALI MOORE: Will you get that 5 per cent?

KATHY JACKSON: I'm definitely going to get the 5 per cent. I've got at least 5 per cent of people - members - who have already emailed me saying, "If you leave, then we leave too".

I'm going nowhere...I'll see the battle out.
It has become a battle...It's not of my making.

But our members deserve answers.

Why am I on this program tonight?

Why aren't any of the other officials..of the union
speaking to the media?

ALI MOORE:..Kathy Jackson,
who's running the HSU right now?

It appears entirely dysfunctional.

KATHY JACKSON:..Sorry it appears totally dysfunctional,..it is totally dysfunctional at the moment...!

We have enterprise bargaining campaigns to run,
we've got grievances to pursue.

Yet, here we are having a public brawl over the fact that they won't allow an independent inquiry to come into the HSU,..and look at our books.

*They wouldn't even allow members..
rank and file members -to come and look at the books.

ALI MOORE:..I understand it's gone further
than a public brawl -your computer systems..have now been affected?

KATHY JACKSON:..I understand that late this afternoon
the database in the Melbourne office was disabled...!

No staff member in Victoria..has access to the database.

I find that totally,..totally reprehensible.

This is a database run by Mr Williamson, United Edge.

[the plot thickens]

United Edge..[lol]..provide computer services to the union.

Yet late this afternoon,
the database went down and we have no answers from Sydney.

I'm seeking for that database to be re-established.
We have work to do.

But I don't need the database.

What I need is a database that hard working men and women
working at the HSU -honest people working..at the HSU -can go off and do their daily work.

I do not need a database..to gather a petition.

There is a groundswell of membership...members out there:
there's 40-45,000 of them out there saying, "We deserve answers".

If the leadership of this union think they can hide behind the council,..they have another thing coming to them.

ALI MOORE: Kathy Jackson, many thanks for talking to Lateline tonight.

KATHY JACKSON: Thank you.

ALI MOORE: Late tonight Michael Williamson told Lateline
he has no idea why the computer database at the HSU office in Victoria isn't operating properly.

He added that the HSU in NSW also experienced
a series of technical problems this afternoon
and they are being investigated.

lol

case closed?
you bet

Belly,

You are right, Thie was dealt with in the correct manner.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/mp-used-me-to-help-party-staffer-20110919-1ki2o.html
While in all probability talking to myself the link is informative.
I note OUG has taken the lets continue the anti Labor trail while ignoring these two related links.
And above all, considering the current situation in our Parliament, questions must be addressed.
Given noted failure to talk about this issue, are some/one poster ,s uninterested in overall behavior.
Second as in my post about union/Labor wrongs , can we ever progress if we are only interested in the other sides wrongs?
Today, in my view, Abbott puts at risk, the idea Parliament sits to review and look after the interests of the whole nation.
And can any one not see he farms future similar treatment when in government.
We have degenerated in to two teams driven only by self interest, not nation building.
Of these two teams Labor only has a plan.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/compromise-gives-gillard-a-bounce/story-e6frgd0x-1226141251583
I found/find great hope in this link.
Not because it starts a come back for Labor or Julia, such is not possible under Gillard, ever.
Gillard, even if Tony Abbott and part of his front bench left Parliament in police hand cuffs can never win.
In truth we wander about online and in real life ignoring not an Elephant in the room, but a thousand of them on our head.
Like two bad football teams,intent on hurting each other, our leaders belong in a sin bin.
One without doors.
Just a tiny glimpse can be seen in this report.
It says to me, Gillard, as unwanted as she is, always will be,has just a few waking to the fact swaggering Tiny Tony is a fraud.
New leader?
Yes but what party will move first.
Can Labor keep the Latham/Crean/Gillard failures from that job?