Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Monday, 2 April 2007 8:54:56 AM
“There is really no comparison between volunteering and contributing to a state system.”

Yes there is, if the state looks after the community, as it is supposed to do, people contributing either way are contributing to their community. People's major objection to contributing to the state is that they dont like what the state does with the money. Personally, I would like to see the firies paid rather than spending the bucks on invading foreign countries.

Posted by Yabby, Monday, 2 April 2007 5:59:54 AM
“Now if the state forces you or tries to force you to do
something, thats quite different.”

Under the current system the state forces you to work to survive
and pay your taxes – it is really not very different at all.

“…we all rush off to help extinguish the blaze. People enjoy
the cameraderie etc that goes with it.”

I think you argue against yourself here. You show how you yourself are motivated by things other than financial reward. Camaraderie exists in workplaces also you know. And people still get paid for their work under communist systems – your condemnation is based on a misrepresentation.

“I remind you that Bill Gates has donated more to charity
then anyone else…”

And sacrificed nothing – do you really think a man with $58 billion wants for anything – the only thing that has changed for him is his public perception in that many people now look on him as a philanthropist rather than a thief of other people’s ideas, eg the mouse, icon based OS’s, etc.

I think a lot of the objections to co-operative systems raised here would be better represented not so much by the term ‘capitalism’ as ‘privatisation’. The major objection to communist type economic systems seems to be that people are not allowed to amass huge amounts of private wealth. The other objections raised seem to me to be fundamentally smokescreens for this one objection which no-one seems to want to name because it is so obviously egocentric.

Rob, you miss the point yet once again. Given the population of a nation, there will always be people who think that the state wastes
money, gives it to the wrong people or spends it wrongly. So paying
tax becomes a burden, they pay as little as possible. Meantime
they still volunteer their time for things they believe in, as
that makes them feel good. Tell me where on earth people happily
pay extra tax?

Under our system you are not forced to work. You are free to head
for the hills and be a hippy, living under bridges. You will not
starve and you'll have free healthcare. If you want more then that
from society, fair enough, you have to do your share and be paid
according to how society values your contribution. You'll then
be forced to pay tax, to pay for those hippies etc who don't.

Under our system, you are also free to be creative in your work,
to do things you love to do for instance and be paid for them.
Market economics allows for that, marxist systems don't.

I don't argue against myself at all. People want choices, not
compulsion. Choices make us feel good, compulsion by others make
us feel bad. We tend to do the things we feel good about, not visa
versa.

Why are you so intent that somebody like Bill Gates should make
huge sacrifices? He could freely keep the lot until his dying day,
as some do. Fact is that he's doing more for the poor then anyone
else on the planet. He got rich by preventing the greed of others,
like Apple, when they refused to sell their software system to others.
He played a huge role in you having cheap access to PCs and the net etc. You should thank him :)

You make egocentrism sound like a bad thing! I have no qualms about stating that one of my goals is to amass huge amounts of wealth, preferably at the expense of people like tao. ;P

Posted by Yabby, Monday, 2 April 2007 5:37:00 PM

“Rob, you miss the point yet once again.”

Perhaps, perhaps it is you who miss the point (once again).
Do you always agree with how the money is spent within the fire service.
The fact that you do not always agree with it however
does not stop you contributing does it?

“Tell me where on earth people happily
pay extra tax?”

Cuba. Although the insertion of ‘extra’ into your question is misleading
as there is no extra required – in fact if the government did not spend so
much on protecting private investment in other places, taxes would almost
certainly be reduced. I don’t have the reference but I have heard from a
reliable source that the US alone has spent $76,000,000,000,000
on ‘defence’ since WWII. The mind boggles at the ‘tax-cuts’ they could
have had. Note: That amount is independent from the cost of all
the damage the ordnance inflicted.

“You are free to head for the hills and be a hippy, living under bridges. You will not
starve and you'll have free healthcare.”

Oh, sing thou from the neo-con songbook. Our streets are full of homeless people
who live in appalling poverty – you may consider that a real choice – I don’t.
cont...

…
“Under our system, you are also free to be creative in your work,
to do things you love to do for instance and be paid for them.”

There is nothing intrinsic in communalism that restricts creativity or people doing what they love.

“People want choices, not compulsion. Choices make us feel good, compulsion by
others make us feel bad. We tend to do the things we feel good about, not visa versa.”

Do you really think that the people living under ‘market economies’ who are forced in their millions
to work in sweatshops around the world to feed their families are really doing what they want.
You are propagating right-wing propaganda at its worst.

“Why are you so intent that somebody like Bill Gates should make
huge sacrifices?”

I didn’t say that, again you criticism relies on misrepresentation. I merely pointed out that his philanthropy
actually cost him nothing and so he should not get credit for making a sacrifice he never made.

“Fact is that he's doing more for the poor then anyone else on the planet.”

It is true that he has given more to the poor (people without computers wasn’t it?)
but it is equally true that by retaining a personal fortune of $58 billion dollars he is keeping more money from the poor than anyone else.

“He got rich by preventing the greed of others,”

[Belly Laugh]Oh, please, I have a hernia.

“He played a huge role in you having cheap access to PCs and the net etc. You should thank him :)”

I do, every day. But the good things people do, do not excuse the bad things they do, not in my book anyway.

"The major objection to communist type economic systems seems to be that people are not allowed to amass huge amounts of private wealth"

Actually, no. That's about the one thing I agree with in the communist system. It's everything else that is wrong with it.

It's more the fact that in removing enterprise from the free market and handing it to government, you are exposing it to corruption within government, which would normally be constrained by competition.

It's the fact that communism, is essentially a term for socialism imposed by force.

It's the fact that while I've been willing to put forth ideas for limiting the damage on Australia being inflicted by free market capitalism, I nobody can practically tell me in logical steps how they would institute socialism, or indeed, communism.

It's the fact that socialists seem to pretend corruption will go away under that system, or at the very least, don't appear to acknowledge it and suggest practical means by which it will be constrained.

It's the fact that socialism relies upon the goodwill and honesty of the greater masses, while pointing out how much money people accrue and rort under capitalism.

There is one overarching problem: the problem with capitalism is it allows people to gather more money than they possibly need. It plays on people's greed.
Yet we are told to believe that socialism will change this? The only way this can be changed is if people are forced into not be able to accrue this wealth.
Tell me - who decides when and how to prevent people becoming this rich? And how to prevent these people in charge from doing what everybody does under the capitalist system, which is to look after themselves?

And for crying out loud - somebody please explain how a socialist system is to be introduced into modern day Australia.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - if you can't, you're just blowing idealistic hot air around and you're not dealing with practicalities.