Interesting thread Rob513264

Rosa Luxembourg, a Polish socialist eventually murdered by the Nazis wrote an article in 1905 “Socialism and the Churches”, which can be found here: http://marxists.anu.edu.au/archive/luxemburg/1905/misc/socialism-churches.htm

It traces the history of Christianity, and discusses the Church’s misuse of Christ’s teachings to build and cement its own power and privilege.

There are no doubt some “true” Christians who attempt to live their lives according to Christ’s precepts. However, many more “Christians” are consciously or unconsciously hypocrites.

Christians certainly don’t have a monopoly on generosity - the majority of people in the world never get enough to give away anyway, yet they still share what they have around. Many ordinary people in wealthy societies, Christian or not, also give away proportionally large amounts compared to what they earn e.g. Tsunami donations, child sponsoring etc, not because of what Christ said, or for everlasting life, but because they are humans helping other humans in need – co-operation is one of the reasons why we are so successful as a species.

However, the reality is that we can’t all be ascetics. It is not ordinary people who are to blame for what goes on in the world, and they ought not to have to further deprive themselves, when there are, relatively speaking, a handful of people in the world with obscene amounts of wealth. The top 1% of the world’s adults own 40% of the world’s wealth.

To my way of thinking Christ’s main criticisms were directed at the rich and greedy few, as well as warning ordinary people that acquiring private, personal riches was not the pathway to happiness. Christ and his followers probably were communists or socialists, even revolutionaries in their own time, however not in the Marxist sense i.e. scientific socialist revolutionaries.

Giving your wealth away and living communally does not and will not change the economic system which gives rise to the obscene disparity of wealth that exists today i.e. capitalism. Revolutionary Marxists believe that the entire system needs to be changed consciously by the majority, not just individual (or even collective) behaviour within it.

TEAM.. just to correct a little misunderstanding of some.

Jesus didn't actually say give away all you have as is being bandied around here. Its an important topic, so lets explore it.

When crowds of people followed Jesus for selfish reasons (He healed).. he turned to them and said

"If any man would follow me... Let him:
-Deny himself
-Take up his cross daily
-follow me.

FOR...
24For whoever wants to save his life will lose it,
but
whoever loses his life for me will save it.
What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory.

CONTEXT.. "Discipleship" the cost of following.. Loses one's life means to give it over to God. God/Christ centred and no longer self centred.

The Lord does say 'give to him who asks, and don't ask it back' so.. generosity is a principle characteristic of genuine faith. But at the same time, be aware that Jesus said in the same sermon on the mount "If you eye sins, gouge it out".. so, I believe He was calling us to reflect in the most serious way about our motives and inner condition.
Taking his words 'literally' in places where they are not meant to be, could cause overload at the emergency dept of every hospital.

Not taking them literally when they ARE meant to be literal, will produce shallow, namby pamby, hyprocritical Christians.

One most important point to note about the topic.. is how the honeymoon actually ended. Its in Acts 6:1 :)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=6&version=31
I won't say what it was, but some energetic person can post it here next.....its worth a look.
1/ The problem ?
2/ The cause of the problem ?
3/ The Solution ?

BOAZ

Luke 18 22ff (Jesus speaking directly to a man, described as a ruler)
"One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me"

This is not a parable. It is Jesus direct answer to a man who asks the question "What must I do".

Like I said, if you take Jesus words literally then you ought to give away all earthly possessions.

Yes waterboy,

I suspect Boaz is one of the many hypocritical Christians putting themselves through logical contortions to justify to themselves and us their unChristianlike behaviour. Its amazing the rubbish they come up with.

I was wondering how long it would take for Boaz to make his presence felt on this thread. Always on the hunt for an opportunity to bible bash. Pity he doesn't do some introspection. I believe it was Jesus who warned us to beware of those who do their praying in public like the evangelicals - go into your room BOAZ where only God can see you. We'll all be much better off.

Didn't Jesus say it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven? Ever managed to get a camel through the eye of a needle BOAZ?

Regardless of what BOAZ says or deludes himself with, it's pretty damn clear to me what Jesus meant - and I'm not even a Christian.

By the way BOAZ,

Maybe you should take Jesus' words literally. As well as "if your eye sins, gouge it out" how about 'if your tongue lies, cut it out' and 'if your fingers type delusional self-justifications, cut them off'.

:)

Waterboy.. well said.. glad you came across that passage.

Consider this. Jesus knew that the man was treasuring his possessions. He pinpointed the very thing which was holding the man back. If the man was having an adulterous relationship, I have a feeling Jesus would have mentioned something along those lines.

The point about commitment, is that it must be 100% and total, this means that all we have is now Gods, rather than ours, and our use of material resources are for Him rather than for us.

There is a danger of taking a text, and without the larger context, making it a pretext.... "Jesus told this man to give away all his wealth"..so.. "we must do likewise". (and expect others to feed us"?)

Lets look at another.

"Judas went and hung himself"
"Do thou likewise"..
"What you do, do with your whole heart"

In regard to discipleship, Jesus clearly said
-"deny self"
-"Take up your cross"
-"Follow Him"

"Self" seeks riches. The Christian seeks his daily bread. There is nothing wrong with maintaining a life based on 'daily sufficiency'.
In my case, I plan to be as free as possible from the daily concerns so I can spend more time proclaiming Christ.

TAO.. *ouch* mate... hey.. If you push suchandsuch-ism, its ok, but if I proclaim Christ its 'Bible Bashing' ? :) c'mon...even steven old boy. I'll pick your ideas to bits, and ur welcome to pick mine to bits, but all in a constructive and well meaning direction I hope.

Introspection I need ? I do it regularly moit. But 'praying in public'... hmmm The pharisee was priding himself on his self righteousness, and comparing himself with 'that sinner'. When I talk to God, I tell him how unworthy I am, and express my need for forgiveness...I don't recall making any particular claim to personal holiness such as the pharisee did...do you ?
I say "Jesus is our Saviour.. come to Him in repentance and seek forgiveness" we are saved by Grace, not by being 'better' than anyone.