"Citing a "very reliable source", he said a white man, a white woman and a driver had visited the slaughterhouse and "the driver and the cameraman" had offered a man 150,000 rupiah to kick the animal in the head."

If this has any grain of truth, this is pure economic terrorism, and needs urgent investigation.

i can only agree
IF ITS TRUE

so we need URGENT investigation
NAMING NAMES
who said what

get the press on it now
not some futur coverup royal commision otr other blather

send in the cops..[the real cops..ie the media]
trace the phone records/let expose all phonies

who filmed it..must be hounded by the hard press
make the minester REVEAL names

get to the root of this TODAY
[we got stock market meltdowns to fo-cuss on]

the policy on the run must stop aswell
lets see you wear out shoe leather[swelling ya you buet tax juliar]
not spinning the destrractions and spin

or lets talk about the aborigonal report your sitting on
lets get serious..were paying monkies golden nutts
but still got monkies

that goes double for the media
who can find a con man..but couldnt find the truth if it fell over it

NAME NAMES
name AND SHAME*
regardless of fear or favour

headline grabbing to control the news?
mice playing while the cats away..?

or good old money shot?
reportage

i can only agree
IF ITS TRUE

so we need URGENT investigation
NAMING NAMES
who said what

get the press on it now
not some futur coverup royal commision or other blather/spin

send in the cops..[the real cops..ie the media]
trace the phone records/

*let expose all phonies

who filmed it..must be hounded by the hard press
make the minester REVEAL names

get to the root of this TODAY*
[we got stock market meltdowns to fo-cuss on]

the policy on the run must stop aswell
lets see you wear out shoe leather[swelling ya you beaute tax juliar]
not spinning the destrractions and spin

or lets talk about the aborigonal report your sitting on
lets get serious..

were paying monkies golden nutts
but still got monkies

that goes double
for the media

who can find a con man..but couldnt find
the truth if it fell over it

NAME NAMES
name AND SHAME*
regardless of fear or favour

headline grabbing to control the news?
mice playing while the cats away..?

or good old money shot?
dotage reportage?

the truth must be revealed TODAY*

Yes Shadow Misister.I thought it a bit odd since stressing an animal causes adrelinan to spoil the taste of the meat.Also they were stabbing the animals ruining the hide for leather.They would have been sacked on the spot if caught.It does not make economic or humane sense.

So the Labor Govt has ruined an entire industry on what seems like contrived evidence.These clowns,fools,imbeciles just lurch from one disaster to another.Election Now!

Well, Duh! Let me remind you of a post in a previous discussion.
I said, the whole thing was a set up. Those people were locals paid to torture the beast. These greenie groups had been caught doing this sort of thing before in a chook farm in Britain.
God I hate being right. ;-)

Well they were either bribed, or showing off for the camera.

I wondered at the time, at management of an operation, letting a camera crew into such a dangerous situation, unless it was a payed set up.

Love that well DUH!.
In those threads about this subject while yabby and I are unlikely to use the term DUH, both noted you can not believe a thing that Lady says.
And I posted a link to a story telling of the other place visited, the $6 Australian given to each of two workers to watch and film the killing.
It ruined the life of both workers.
Interviews took place,I posted links, they are isolated still even by ones wife.
So that much did happen.
Given I have no evidence of this new charge, given I believe animal welfare groups are untrustworthy.
And that I do not believe Liberal politics too often.
I think on form, on balance, animal welfare activists would see harm done to animals, they paid for, to get the film.
REMEMBER such groups use any lie to get the results watch this space.

Another thread based on heresay.
Why am I not surprised.

Evidence please folks - not just
anecdotal.

As Judge Judy would say, "Don't urinate on my leg
and tell me its raining!"

hasbeen... yep... I doubt the people who work in Indonesian abbatoirs are the best paid in the world and

given a "European" with a video camera, offering with money - they will follow the cash....

("How high do you want me to jump Mast'a")

Too convenient and all too typical of the sort of lies leftard, environazi and other mal-adjusted activists use to corruptly influence public policy

This rumour appears to have been started
by a conservative, right-wing, political
activist - in an attempt to discredit
the animal rights movement. This is the
way it appears to be perceived by the media.
And as shown on the news report on TV.
I'll do a bit more research and get back to
you with hopefully some facts.

This is from the article in the Australian,

"The comments came as Indonesian cattle industry sources told The Australian there had been payments."

So the Australian was not simply relying on Senator Beck's word, but got it corroborated by the Indonesians.

If this was a rumour, it has multiple sources.

Lexi "in an attempt to discredit the animal rights movement. "

No one else needs to discredit the animal rights movement....

they do a good enough job of that themselves...

Maybe you are just having a "monocular" moment

OMG! I've just found out that I'm a Right-wing, Consevative, Activist. Thanks Lexi.

Having been raised on a Slaughter Yards I alerted everyone I could of the posibility of a con Job by the Left-wing, Greenie, Loopy Activists. I guess someone did a bit of investigsting & now these people have egg on their faces, including the Media.

And by the way. I am neither Left, Right or Centre. I consider myself to be above all that Childish Crap. I think for myself & do some research. I don't follow Party lines, or follow the Loopy Greenie/PC/Learned Academic/Fanatic Activists lines either.

Col Rouge,

Loved the "monocular" reference.
I'll pay that.

However, one question. After reading
several articles on the web, a reader
asked: " If the allegations are
true - why weren't they rolled out when the
story broke?"

"Surely the Indonesians would have investigated
and reported this and it would have cleared
their name and would have prevented a huge disruption
of trade?"

What does Liberal Senator Beck actually have as
proof? Merely unattributed quotes. No hard evidence,
no depositions, no interviews, et cetera. His is
merely heresay and wouold not be acceptable in a
court of law.

I agree with the reader who stated, "I think that
some readers don't have the intellectual capacity
to analyze an issue based on the information
written in an article. They read the bits they want
to agree with and discount any other evidence(or lack
of) that confounds their preconceived ideas."

Who told Senator Beck to provide these allegations
now? Had he done so when the story broke he could
have saved Australian farmers from the pain of
having to shoot their own cattle - as well as
do so much damage to the industry. Shame on him.

Dear Jayb,

Me too.

Welcome to the Club!

Lexi,

A bit of a heroic assumption that the information was available immediately. Given that the worker took a bribe, he might not have been immediately forthcoming.

The other side of the issue, is that Labor stopped the cattle trade without even the whiff of an investigation as to whether this was common or only occasional.

I must admit to some surprise to see people openly mistreating animals in front of strangers.

SM,

Do we know what sort of investigations were carried
out by the government. They didn't decide immediately
either. It works both ways. As for the fact that a
foreign film crew was allowed in a Muslim country
to film the mistreatment of animals in a private
abattoir doesn't sit well with me either.
At this time I'm somewhat skeptical of both sides.
Perhaps years from now we'll get to the truth.
Someone will undoubtedly write something about all this.

It is yet further proof of just how much out of touch this government is.

Whether or not this was a set up, the government shut down an entire industry simply because a small percentage may or may not have done the wrong thing.

Incidentally, several of these abbs don't even have refrigeration, so they only kill a few beasts a day/week.

I would also suggest the ABC may be sent with a please explain note!

In the first thread about this subject I ,and others reminded posters Lyn White is not to be trusted.
And I posted those links, that her driver had paid $6 Australian, each, to two workers to let her film.
That link was prove true, by another story reporting a face to face interview with one of those two.
This event was not then related to hurting cattle on film, the second event seems to be the one.
But those two men had their life ruined, that is a lot of money for them but they got sacked and sent to Coventry by their village and family's.
First, try to get in to an Abettors in Australia armed with Cameras, it will not happen.
I think it is even more unlikely to happen in that country.
Not every one will understand, but animal rights groups are often very extreme, we all want better, but it is my view Lyn White Vegan,is the extremist within an extreme group.
Animal rights groups are not in safe hands, insist on animal welfare but on truth too.
Australia suffered at the hands of uninformed do gooders some of our farmers will never recover from what I see as an act of terrorism, same tactics same lies same result.
Some farmers are considering suicide over this.

Lexi,

Given the time between the airing of the film, and the banning of exports, there was not the time for an investigation. Neither was one announced or mentioned, so unless there is evidence to the contrary, I believe that there was no investigation.

Don't start blaming the reporter now even if she did do all the things that are being said.
It wasn't the reporter who ruined many lives in the australian & indonesion Beef industry & the countless flow-on industries.
It was the present Prime Minister who ordered the exports to be stopped. No-one else. She is solely responsible for that but I'm sure there are sufficient morons out there to keep supporting her.
The flow-on effects of this most dreadful decision will haunt us for decades & some families will not get over it at all. What the present academic federal politicians don't understand is that if the cattle doesn't get onto the ship then the fuel station doesn't sell fuel, the mechanics don't fix trucks, the agricultural suppliers don't supply & so on. They don't understand that there is no such thing as a stand-alone industry. All industry is part of a huge symbiotic net.
Let's get rid of them asap before we all go down the drain.

The whole rush to judgement was typical of the poor decision-making that has typified the Austrlain body-politic for some time. Too much power concentrated in the hands of party hacks and too little in the control of genuinely competent decidon-makers. this applies across the brad and has only got worse with the rise of the Fairies.

While there may not be much consolation in the thought that the Libnats will be in power soon, it's certainly some that the ALP will be away from it. Let's hope some genuinely decent candidates arise in the bloodletting that will surely follow that defeat.

Dear rehctub,

Whether or not this was a set-up - Liberal MP
Beck is rolling out the information far too
late. He could have saved an entire industry
far earlier. It again appears to be more
politicising tactics.

Dear Antiseptic,

I couldn't agree more. A change of leadership,
like Malcolm Turnbull for the Liberals would
improve things greatly.

Lexi: like Malcolm Turnbull for the Liberals would improve things greatly.

Ahh..TurnBull. Australias biggest Snob. He have the rats scrambling for crumbs in dumpsters in no time at all. As he & his mates drove past in their Rolls Royces having a giggle to themselves.

could have saved an entire industry far earlier.
Lexi,
many on OLO have tried to prevent it & you lot wouldn't listen. Don't try any blame diverting tactics now. The fault is the ALP Government's & no-one else's !

Lexi,

The panicked, poll driven Labor idiocrasy killed the industry, there is no one else to blame.

Yet again, as a sign of our devisions,the thread has become Labor vs Liberal.
I an ALP supporter took the stick to them on this issue in threads while the thing was white hot.
I think they got the Ban wrong, not the end results,in fact asked that yabby and I fix it we could have, in a week.
But remember please leave your biases or inability to see other than your view at the door,bucket provided.
The FILM and releasing of it, the playing of it, by the Green ABC started this issue, fueled it, had maybe most Australians wanting to end the trade.
If Mr Abbott was to see political gain in anything he would do it.
And Shadow Minister, circling the wagons around Lexi may be fun.
But while you know my thoughts this second event,may only be an invention using parts of the one we know is true.
2 years from now your side will be in power you will be playing Lexis roll, asking for fairness and balance, not much chance bloke.

Belly,

"2 years from now your side will be in power you will be playing Lexis roll, asking for fairness and balance, not much chance bloke."

I have never had fairness or balance from Lexi, and would not expect it or ask for it later.

Belly,
You couldn't be more wrong with your Labor vs Liberal quip. The Liberals weren't anywhere near this knee jerk pro disaster plan. There is no-one else to blame except Madam PM herself.
Stop wasting everyones time with trying to excuse this. There simply is no excuse.

SM,

You wound me to the core.
You've never had fairness or balance
from me? Really? Is that how you
really feel? And I thought we were friends
just having robust discussions.

The root of the problem is that labor's people have never run a business or created a job. They have no ideas what they are doing and the sad part is they are ruining almost everything they touch.

One has to wonder how they appoint their misisterstirial positions, one day they can be environment minister, the next, minister for small business.

In the real world, you don't take your car to the accountant to have it fixed, but labor do.

If the live export was their only real stuff up, they could perhaps be given a wrap over the knuckles, however, they have stuffed everything they have touched and this is the real issue.

I said in a previous thread that all labor voters should be ashamed at whatbthey have helped to create, well, perhaps this is more evidence that I was on the money.

Now she is taking no notice of business warnings that now is not the time to play ruelet with our economy by introducing yet another tax.

There is no shame in being wrong, the shame is in continuing to protect these fools no matter how many stuff ups they make or how much of our money they waste.

Just remember, tomorrow is the first day of the rest of your life and it is never to late to make a change for the better.

rehctub,
hear, hear. To admit to being an ALP supporter these days amounts to admitting to being unaustralian & even anti australian.
I say bring back Labor.

Dear rehctub and Individual,

Come on. Labor does not advertise their achievments.
They should. And you should have the intellectual
capacity and memory - to remember at least some of them.
Making sweeping statements is foolish. It would be like
me saying that Liberals have nothing to offer except for
condemnation and criticism. That wouldn't be right either.
Or saying that all they do is support big business and when
they get into power the cut everything except tax subsidies
and benefits for the wealthy. That would be unfair as well.
So best to realize that all governments can't please everyone.
We choose those that we feel will be best for ourselves and
our families. And living in a democratic country we have the
freedom of choice as to who we vote for. Neither side are
angels - that's politics after all. There's enough stuff-ups
to go around.

There's enough stuff-ups to go around.
Lexi,
and yet you still not denouncing them ? Perhaps you see it as two wrongs make a right.

Dear Individual,

If you'd read my posts more carefully you'd
notice that I'm saying that there's enough
stuff-ups to go around (by both parties).
Neither has any right to feel too smug.
As for denouncing anyone - I don't like
to make rash judgements. Let's wait and see
what develops. Another election is still two
years away. I want to see who gives us positive
outcomes, good firm policies, and who offers
something more than empty promises,
for the nation.

Rehctub, they are getting worse.

In the old days, quite a few had worked in industry, in the real world, before becoming a shop steward, & moving up the chain. Now they are predominately graduates in the fairy floss disciplines, who have moved straight into staffer jobs.

Worse still, when in doubt who do they turn to but the equally impractical bunch the academics. Talk about the blind leading the blind, while reinforcing each others daydreams.

Dear Hasbeen,

I saw a marvellous play last night at
The Playhouse Theatre,
the Arts Center, here in Melbourne.
It was Tim Winton's, "Rising Water,"
with the brilliant actor - John Howard.

Reminded me of what I imagine you'd be like.
The main character lived on a boat in his
retirement. Interesting man. Had a similar
mind-set to yours. Great character for a play.

Lexi,

Perhaps I was a bit harsh on you when I was responding to Belly.

However, given that you always take the governments side without question irrespective of their policies indicates that you far from balanced in what you post.

"Beck is rolling out the information far too late. He could have saved an entire industry far earlier" is pushing the boat out more than a little far.

Thanks for thinking of me Lexi. I am of course retired, but my only boats today are a small sailing dingy, & a canoe.

I guess all our mind-sets come from our life experience. I think you I & Belly may have had many similarities there, at least early on. There must have been a few differences though, as ours are a little different.

We were not refugees, but at the end of WW11 my father came out of the air force at 36 years of age, with a new government issue suit, & 10 pounds. The little they had managed to put together between the depression the war was gone, so we were only one step above refugees, like thousands of other returned servicemen.

With mum & me to support, he had to get a job quick, & took one in Townsville, 1500 miles away. It took 2 months to save the fare for us to join him.

Everything they then built was all at their own effort. No one gave them any help, it was sink or swim. That may be why I hate seeing these boat people swanning in here, & getting half a million spent on them. I have a very strong dislike of bludgers.

If you wanted a house you had to build it. When I was 10, I was holding up the internal panels as dad nailed them up. I recall I was not much good at it.

I'm sure Belly would remember the pillow slips made from flour bags, & sheets made of unbleached calico. I use only silk sheets now, talk about over reaction.

Lexi rest easy Friend, it is the pot calling the kettle black me giving this advice but here it is.
The thread has been high jacked, almost every one is, some times by me.
But know, I am who I am,two hobby's one past one current teach me , you know of my hunger to learn.
First Citizens band radio, first it had promise.
But became a rubbish tip , killed at the hands of egos not always connected to a brain.
A thing called, gee can not remember now, but it meant getting to met the face behind the voice, you may have been talking to for years.
Disappointing! never what you thought, often a danger, the nice person turned out to be some very bad things.
Ham Radio/electronics is my go now.
Not more than a very small thing there.
But online it is huge!
Any activity that sees us communicate with faceless people is going to bring out the good the bad the ugly.
We you and I others too, from all sides of politics , try balanced conversations.
Do not take it for granted those who taunt us are average Conservatives, or that they understand.
Some, are quite out of their depth, quite unable to focus on the fact we,all of us,are Australians, we have every right to vote as we wish.
continued

I Lexi am a blocky old bloke people say I look like an ex warfy, I can swear and insult with the best of them.
And love a laugh could use Satire and humor much more.
But to what end.
What becomes of our forum if we drop the debate in to the gutter.
In my former hobby's,the roughest toughest talkers, usually lived in a shed down the back, we call it the shack in ham radio.
Some are mansions, mine is also my entertainment center.
Know some hid there from the wife, and in some cases best resembled a small white mouse not a man.
Some bait us for reaction, some because they fear our side of politics or the Truth.
I say Labor will not be elected.
And they will not, but they will grow by the loss and be forever a part of this country's politics.
I hark back constantly and honestly to a LIBERALISM once so very different than todays.
Lexi one day it will return, once Turnbull would have been one in a big crowd that thought as he does.
Our detractors will be left behind as lost then as they are now.
Hasbeen I think your linen sheets may well be as worn and torn as you some times display your thoughts to be, but yes at my birth many ordinary Australians used such.
Rather be one of them than a snob mate sausage sandwich rather than caviar.
Tell me more about day Lillie's of the market soon.

It is the nature of Australian politics that we disagree, much more than we once did.
The very idea that every thing Labor does is wrong is quite silly.
As much as the refusal to even glimpse at Tony Abbott's alternatives.
We will look too late after the election.
Here in this thread we see our country's devisions.
I so badly want to kick my party for the stupidity of its handling of this issue.
I was not joking you know, yabby and I given the power,could have fixed it in a week and not stopped the exports.
As a union official, contrary to blind bigoted views It was part of my job,to be called in by bosses to fix broken things restart jobs by invitation.
Once Americans had a thing called American know how,it saw red tape cut the job done results not opinion polls.
One thing stands out to me, I TRUST NO ANIMAL WELFARE GROUP!
harsh? but honest! you can not trust them staged filming has been part of the plan for 6 decades.
You will Lexi not ever, never see one of our detractors, ever put such words in print about their party.
So why would you be concerned about them?
One clearly, is as fixed and immovable as the other but not Representative .

Dear Lexi, with the greatest of respect, atbwhat point would you say enough is enough!

How many more chances should they get.

Remember, madam PM dethroned rud as she clearly said she could do a better job.

Perhaps the problem was she used the word could, not would.

Another huge issue is Andrew wliki and the gun he held to her head in return for her support.

Problem gamblers are a small minority, yet, here we are about to punish the masses just to please this guy, all because madam PM was desperate to hold office at any cost.

She is playing ruelet with our future.

To think we are in this state, while at the same time being the envy of the rest of the modern world defies belief, and speaks very poorly of the rest of the world.

The damage from her IR laws are just starting to surface but, like many things, once the buble bursts it will be to late.

And to think that we have to raise taxes now just to repay the huge waste from labor is a disgrace.

If they manage to get their green carbon tax across the line, it may well be game over.

So i ask you again Lexi at what point do you think enough is enough?

I'm saying that there's enough stuff-ups to go around (by both parties).
Lexi,
That is an ambiguous statement for the simple reason that you're simply dividing the stuff-ups of the major parties. This is utterly incorrect as the stuff-up quota is not an even field, it is 95 % ALP vs 5 % Coalition stuff-ups.

The very idea that every thing Labor does is wrong is quite silly.
Belly,
you're right, but 9 out of 10 sure doesn't look very good at all does it ?

Dear rehctub,

I can only tell you what I get from various data bases,
newspapers, and reports. Our country economically is
in pretty good nick compared to the rest of the world.
Also I believe that a moderate tax on polluters is
not going to have a drastic effect on the rest of us.
It might just encourage an investment into renewable
energy sources. I look upon all this as an opportunity
for a clean energy future. I also feel that just like
the refugee issue - all of this has been so politicised
that some people are not thinking straight.

Anyway, that is simply my opinion. Of course I may be
wrong and you guys may be 100% correct but this does
not change the fact that I'm entitled to my opinion, the
same as you're entitled to yours. This does not make me
a one-eyed supporter of the Labor Party (BTW my family has
always voted Liberal - and some of them always will). I
however go with what policies make sense to me. Shadow
Minister talks about fairness and balance - but I don't
see him displaying any of it himself. Unfortunately some
people feel that they're on the right path - that's all well
and good - but I say unfortunately because some of them are
convinced that theirs is the only path. And that's what I
object to. No one has the right to impose their views on anyone
else. That's why I am splitting the "stuff-ups," between both
parties - because none of them are perfect.

Lexi I saw the needless insults, ignoring those directed at me.
But be assured you have nothing to fear.
You are a balanced poster.
You put links and such .
But you do not own a magic wand, you can not change stone in to cake.
I have news for you, the ALP understands it will be beaten next time, not a landslide but government will change.
We entered government on the back of a white horse carrying our dreams.
It turned in to a donkey,partly at the hands of Gillard.
Who mounted on a Harley, I alway thought was a push bike with no back wheel.
Traded it in for a 250 cc 50 year old bike.
Not taunting believe me, Conservatives enter the house on two saddle bags, lost the bike when Abbott took over.
Those big stuffed bags? one is full of non core promises, the other? silly walks, and other dangerous goods like the thoughts of Tony Abbott on the economy.
Leave them have the thread Lexi, some come here not to talk but to taunt.

some come here not to talk but to taunt.
Belly,
wrong again a second time. People here don't taunt, you just choose to see it that way. People here are trying to open the eyes & minds of the likes of you who refuse to look reality in the eye. Playing ostrich only exposes your vulnerable parts. When Labor regains the reigns from the ALP we know that we've done our job.

Yes Lexi I agree that we are all entitled to our opinions howver, I note that once again you have not answered one simple question.

At what point do you say, enough is enough?

Now as for our strong economy, well, it is hard to argue with someone who is at th cold face.

I see an economy in disarray, as on he one hand we have a mining boom, th envy of all.

Now while this may seem a good thing, it also laces huge preasure on non mining businesses, particually small ones, who by the way are our largest employers.

Take retail. We have no idea how long our staff will stay, as many are simly filling in time waitin for that call up from th mines.

Tourism. All but dead.

Hospitallity. Driven largely by those reallity shows, but in reallity many are actually more like a nightmare. High rents, high wages on weekends, their busiest time.

Manufacturing. All but gone.

So, her we are reliant on mining yet, because of this governments waste and mismanagement we are forced in to implementing new taxes just to repay labor's debt.

What we should be doing is printing money in these times, not playing catch up in the form or Russian ruelet with our large providers of wealth and services.

Lexi,

I don't pretend to be completely balanced, as I have a special loathing for the sheer incompetence of the Labor party. However, I am as careful as possible to post things that are independently supported, and don't post things that I know or suspect are incorrect.

You, on the other hand say things like:

" That's why I am splitting the "stuff-ups," between both
parties - because none of them are perfect."

Where it is perfectly clear that in the short span of government the quantity and depth of Labor stuff ups and backflips far exceeds that of the 10 years of Coalition government.

This banning of the cattle exports is a prime example. While governments are expected to measure their actions against the will of the people, government is expected to take measured action on considered advice, not on day to day opinion polls.

I promise I will be strong, put OLO first.
Be as good as I can in my posts in not referring to silly posts slander and a refusal to see I have every right to be different and think differently.
At the worst, my views are shared by just around 42% of my country men.
We divert threads, some just to get the boots in.
Some because they, in their wasted over confidence, think they alone know every thing.
This thread is about live exports.
No easy task, but I promise! me! not to respond in the same language used against me, Indy, too many times I tried, your last ten posts speak for you, and they are the last I will ever respond to.
We will never fix the worlds problems while we find reason to gloat at the constant devisions we create here.

Belly,
come on, get real. You're the devisive one here. You accept that things aren't good in the country but for some inexplicable reason you just don't want to accept that it is the ALP Government that has gotten us to this stage. Do yourself a favour & admit it. I guarantee you'll feel better. Just imagine your conscience alone of not supporting the crowd that sends so many good australians to the wall. What about the many broken families due to this Governments atrocious decision making. Go up north and tell the cattle farmers & those who depend on them that you still support that lot. Go to a local pub & tell them at the bar & see how many agree with you. You could even buy a few beers for those who now can't afford to buy one.

Dear rehctub,

Ooops. Slight blunder. I replied to your
question -"When is enough, enough?" on
Shadow Minister's other thread - "Out of sight..."
My apologies. However, I will give you the website
again that I quoted there:

http://newmatilda.com/2011/08/12/disability-reform-will-be-milestone

As I said in the other post - From my point of view it will
be "enough," once this government has been given its chance
to serve out its full term in office and we can then compare
its achievements with its failings and then decide where
the scales dip.

Lexi,
you think Australia can afford to wait that long ? Is there sufficient resources in the coffers to keep bailing out this Governments policies ?

I think it extremely unwise to play russian roulette with a country simply to guess your way through blunder after blunder.

Lexi,

This government has already had more than one term, and has shown itself in policy after policy to be incompetent, and far more interested in power than the interests of the people.

Dear SM and Individual,

John Howard had what 12 years?
His nickname was the "unflushable turd."
Which I suppose is worse than the names
being given to our current Prime Minister.
As for Howard's budget surplus? All too easy
in a cyclical boom - and he didn't have a
global financial crisis to deal with. Also
lets not forget the cut-backs. When you reach
a budget surplus you do so on cut-backs.
Anyway, some people have short-term memories
and only remember what they want to remember.

I'm not trying to convert any of you - you vote
for whoever you want. I shall do the same.

See you on another thread.

Cheers.

These allegations of bribery are not proven. While nothing is impossible, I find it difficult to believe that an animal welfare group would do such a thing. They certainly have a barrow to push and while it is possible that someone might fake a photo for the so-called 'greater good', it is equally as likely that other groups might also put forth these allegations for their own interests.

Who is this 'reliable' source? Conspiracies are one thing but in the issue of live exports there are many possible conspirators with specific interests to protect. What better way than to cast doubt on those earlier allegations.

I have met many so-called 'reliable' sources spruiking their stuff on camera knowing that the information was nothing more than spin and at worst untrue.

Why not wait for the outcome of any investigation.

The question is still the same. Should Australia be exporting live cattle and if not why not?

Wouldn't AU be better off value adding instead of selling whole. This business of temporally stunning will never happen. Body weight will have a lot to do with it. The bolt gun is the only way at the moment. You wouldn't get any one to go near a temporally stunned animal that size.
There is no recovery from the bolt gun, the animal is brain dead.

only remember what they want to remember.
Lexi,
that's precisely what you're doing.

*Wouldn't AU be better off value adding instead of selling whole*

Clearly not, or they would buy them and slaughter them here.
The value adding story doesen't work, unless you want to use it
for everything. Consumers buy 85% of their cars as imports, they
could have value add the iron ore. But somebody would have to
pay, its the same with cattle.

Those Northern cattle need feedlotting anyhow, which is what
Indonesia does with them. So its a win-win marketing chain.

Lexi,

Funny how cyclical booms happen under the liberals, and how with the biggest mining boom in history, under labor most of the country is still struggling.

instead of selling whole*
Yabby,
the sole reason for live cattle export is a religious one. The importers want to ensure the beasts are slaughtered according to religious belief/practice. This can not be ensured to be done here.

Yabby! do not do it! back to the past thousands of words millions maybe have been said about these cattle not being the ones we put on our table.
How processing can not take place because money can not be made out of it over there or up here.
We can produce a billion rolls of Devon a day but how do we sell it.
Why bother,
This thread has posters as uninformed as my government was on this issue.
We every one of us, should understand,while we find reason to question the intelligence and understanding of others no hard task.
We would do better reviewing our own thoughts.
leave you to it bloke tell him about how many country's take live exports and how many send them.

Belly, sadly the debate in public is going to have to continue,
because so many are so badly informed about the topic. Xenephon
for instance, who should have a tiny clue as to what he is talking about,
given that he is putting bills before parliament, recently
wanted to convince Coles and Woolies to sell Northern cattle as mince.

Now anyone who knows anything about breaking down a carcass, knows
that its the valuable cuts that drive the value of the whole animal.
If the whole animal has little value, the price paid will be a pittance and to
run stations, charter helicopters for muster etc,
is not cheap.

Its quite concerning that people with so little knowledge about a
subject, can have so much political power, with tens of thousands
of livelyhoods at stake. Ignorance is not bliss, for those on the receiving end of all this ignorant politics.

SM,

Ever heard of the Global Financial Crisis -
which was started by the conservatives and
the greedy bankers in the US, and supported
by our former conservative government -
under Mr Howard who pandered to every US dictate.

Dear Lexi,
Well said my good friend, the 'fat cat achieving' Liberals only care about looking after the wealthy. Whilst the Labor Government spends a lot of money so that everybody can have a fair go.
But from this post forward, I will not be posting on any political issues., people are too one-eyed about their own Party, and forget the rest of them who suffer because of it, needless to say I am talking about the Abbott Opp.
Cheers,
will talk on another thread my friend.
NSB
PS It would be nice if people can view politics through plain glasses, if we are honest, we should all recognise good/bad policies when they are introduced, no one party is perfect, btw I don't vote for either Major Parties.

Lexi,

Read before you post. The relaxation of the banking rules was done by Clinton. The legacy of huge public debt in Europe was almost exclusively thanks to the socialist governments.

Lexi/NSB I admire you both.
But feel the need to defend myself, I have lived for my party from my mid teen years.
Before that was left of it, my dad would kill me if he knew.
Why?
Not party can serve all our needs.
But Labor serves mine best.
I think it is my job, to Serve my party.
Not all do,some serve only them selves.
Lexi as a well educated Librarian, you would understand time changes everything.
Just one hundred years ago your church was the strongest in the world, 50 years ago it controlled the ALP.
My statements against part of my party and part of its policy's and the delivery of then,is in the service of my party.
I contend no one can charge me, with one eyed blindness, I know, like it or not, good comes from conservatives too.
Do not look to the worst you see here, look at RObert and others who are fixed conservatives.
My thought, Labor is gone,are ones the party shares.
We will get our things in line, be rewarded by even conservatives agreeing we got it right in ten years but we are not all fixed and blind.
I am full of hope in my party its future is assured.

Sorry yabby I needed to say that.

Still think, given the air time ,you and I could tell Australia the truth, do some truly think farmers and stock sellers are so stupid they export live cattle only to serve the interests of Muslim country's.
Watch any episode of the anti whaling TV show see the bottles hurled at the whalers.
Yes I want the lie to stop saying it is for science.
Do we care that in twenty years whale numbers will be near the highest they ever have been.
See the break and enter to medical research centers filmed.
Who understands the matter of paying two is beyond dispute, they have been interviewed.
16 year old kid, my age up to 18, I worked briefly in the Hombush Abattoirs in Sydney.
For some reason the union, you had to be in it, saved the job of a slicer who had been sacked 4 times.
It was suspected he spat in export boxes of meat, he did too.
Last time me, just out of my Comrade days, two other youths got taken out the back and schooled.
To lie, to save his job, it is currency in this union, I could not say, and be sure I was not lying, this union is not funding Lyn White.
Unions are not all like that,but this one is!

SM,

I do read before I post as well as do my
research. How about you doing the same.
As for the GFC - you need to find out
more about the financial crisis and the problems
that the US has been having for decades. As
for Europe - different story again. This
website may help you get a grasp on some of
the facts:

http://newmatilda.com.au/2011/08/10/gfc-back-and-its-here-stay

Of course you can always brush it all aside as being
a "....." blog (fill in your own word). That would
be true to form.

Well said Belly. I to worked briefly in an Abattoirs, Just outside of Bowen. (The Communist Centre of Australia.) I was just 17. I was put in the Freezers & Paid adult wages accordingly. (you had to be 21 to work in the Freezers.) With wages at 14 Pound a week.($28) @ 4 nights & an Saturday or Sunday overtime times were good. Sometimes 30+ Pound a week. Then I ran into a problem with the Union. I wanted to pay my Union Dues but, and here's the problem. The "Donation to the Communist Party was on the free end. I was fronted to a Court for refusal to pay my Dues. So I placed the money down in front of the President, Secretary & Treasurer, They accepted it, but said I was still short the 10 bob Donation to the Communist Party. I said, no, that's a donation, as it's a donation, I have the right not to donate, if I don't want too.They were in a dilimmea as there was only 3 weeks left to the end of the season & not enough workers had had an "accident" so they good get Compo while they were off till the start of the next season. They accepted the money & told me, not to come back, & that I was Black listed from every Meatworks in Australia. I did tell them that was Ok as I had intended too join the Army & kill Communists. They were not impressed with that. They let me stay on until the end of the season. They couldn't get me sacked as I had not broken any Company rules. Great introduction, at 17, into the real world of Politics.
Cont.

con'.
I've just been going through the old Newspapers. I cut & save All the articles about women killing their Husbands & Children. The papers went back to the start of the killing cattle debarcle.
As the story unfolded there was a cry from the public, abeit the Veggies, To ban the sale of cattle to Indoneasia for their cruilty. As shown in THEIR video that they had made of the cruel way Indoneasians kill OUR poor Moo Cows.
The Government hesatated, saying that they would investigate the Video.
The public (Veggies) were outraged that nothing was being done to stop the export & demanded that it cease immediately.
The Government still was investigating.
More outcry from the Public (Vegies), joined by the LNP, demanding thate the export of cattle be stopped. .
The Government under pressure from the Public (Veggies) caved in. To the deleight of the Public ( Veggies) & the LNP.
They banned the Export of live cattle.
Then the Cattlemen step into the fray & the LNP swiches sides & backs the Cattlemen. Lots of Hoo Har from both sides. Veggies (public) claiming victory.
Government demands Indonesia follow the rules on Killing befor export is resumed.
Indonesia agrees. Talks on export & Methods of killing.
Exports start to resume. Out cry from Veggies (public).
Video is found to be fake. Veggies cry foul, saying the Video is real.
More investigation is done & the Indoneasian in the Video confesses to being paid. Wife, family, villiage is ostrasizing him.
Veggies disclaim the Video saying it was from a 3rd. party, nothing to do with them.
All is now quite on the Export front. (almost).

Whose fault is it?
ALP's? They waited until forced by the Public (Veggies) & the LNP.
ALP acted according to the Public (Veggie & LNP) out cry.
Cattle men hurting, LNP demand the export resume?
ALP resumes export according to the wishes of the LNP, Cattlemen & public. (No Veggies)
Video exposed, Veggies disown Video.

No one's fault, or everyone's fault. Overreaction by everyone.So I wouldn't be pushing blame onto anyone.

Lexi,

It would appear that all your quotes come from New Matilda. This light weight lefty rag consists almost entirely of flimsily researched opinion pieces with not even a veneer of impartiality.

Either you don't read anything else, or you cannot find any thing else to support your whimsical conclusions.

SM,

Come on. That's your answer for any quoted source
that doesn't agree with your point of view.
Get serious and actually read the articles. They
may surprise you. BTW: the media are only as
objective as the conservative businesses that
own them.

Lexi, Shadow Minister, Belly & all else that believe that their party is the right one. I look at it like religion. Each one believes that their particular creed is the only way to reach Nivana. The reality is that they are all as corrupt as one another. It is especially true of the two Parties we are stuck with, whether or not it's Australia, Europe, the UK or America. The two main Partys are corrupt. They share the power between them. It doesn't matter who is in the Top Job. All that matters is that it is one of them.
The need for a 3rd. Political Power to challange them is evident. Getting that 3rd. Power is the hard part. The Democrats tried, as did One Nation, Now the Kat in the Hat is making a try. The 2 main Partys are terrified of the competition because it upsets their cosy arrangement. They enjoy a minor party that represents no challenge. One that they can easily control. But a serious threat... They will do everything in their power cooperatively to eliminate it. Including infiltrating that Party & destructing it from the inside. As in the case with One Nation. They used the loony Greens to destroy the Democrats. I believe the Kat in the Hat may be a different proposition. With hope & a lot of luck, maybe he can pull it off. It is obvious that some thing has to happen otherwise Australia is down the gurgler with the rest of the World.

Lexi,

No I don't say that about all quoted sources, but I have read the NM, and have yet to see any news. All the articles are essentially poorly researched opinion pieces selectively cobbling together information that is available in most newspapers to push a left wing / green political agenda.

I have yet to see a single article that criticises the carbon tax, only an insipid commentary on how Julia hasn't sold it well enough.

To be taken seriously, you need more than one source of information.

I offer as evidence some posts full of expressive anger and far too much self confidence as evidence .
Evidence not all of us truly understand politics.
We in this country became a nation from about 1974, we had Anzac and battlefield bravery but until then we kept our place as a tiny bit of England in the Pacific.
Our Sir Robert Menzies, without doubt a word smith and well,yes statesman, loved the British ,himself, and us, he wanted to call our dollar the Royal.
Conservatives and even more so Labour took us in to the the open market.
We had always brawled with our self but got infected, with the American illness.
We saw our leaders on TV judged them on looks, and far worse, adopted Americas election system, personal abuse lies, even inventions to defame each other.
Every attempt at third party has failed and will continue to.
National Party was born to be a third party,once was.
It has been nothing but the servant of Liberalism from the day Blackjack John Mac Cewan left.
Democrats began to die when its founder left apart from one young woman drowned slowly.
Greens, startle me!2 years ago I would never have seen this,the triumphalism in 9 senate seats.
But the harsh truth?over 80% in my view 86%, of this country's center the aways vote Labor/Liberal will never change.
But both party's do and must .
Conservatives will not take Abbott to an election, Labor seems to want Gillard in the death seat but it will rise on the back of yet another generation of voters understanding they have been sold a pup, a lie.

SM,

If you haven't read one single article that
criticizes the carbon tax - perhaps that should
tell you something more than just the fact that
the sources are "light-weight," as you put it.
Sometimes you need to look at the bigger picture,
(even though you may only have a small screen) - you
can at least try. And using more than one source -
is what I told you - quite some time ago. Glad that
you remembered it.

Lexi,

Now you are being deliberately perverse, that is not what I said at all.

Given that I have quoted many different publications, and you only one, I can only assume your bluster is to cover up your inadequate depth.

SM,

Again you're simply being divisive.
I have quoted many sources in the past.
I choose the ones that I feel are on the
topic - and fair. You seem to select ones
that match your political views. And you're
brushing aside "New Matilda," only because
you somehow feel that they represent views
that are anti - what you believe. They actually
present balanced views if you bothered to read
them. And simply because I don't agree with you
on many issues does not make my views "shallow."
As to how much "depth" I may or may not have -
you can't really judge because I'm a multi-faceted
individual - and someone you don't happen to know.

I my morning swim, in the Australian printed Media, I found this morning very cold.
In the NT and WA north QLD farmers who saw that first load away to Indonesia are suffering.
Wounder how many understand some of them live in tin shanty's.
And just how many are thinking about taking a gun riding out and killing them selves
No way out for many of them, red necks? maybe, Labor voters? unlikely but maybe.
I look at Tony Abbott, and am in fear!
Tony for a Christian, has no regard for truth!
Look think what you will, but I no one sided my party right or wrong blind mouse as so many here are.
My party had no idea on this issue of its blind actions and the impacts, no ability to understand these cattle face it, have to currently be exported.
I understand, I am only one who has an opinion, but at least mine did not come from a life in one of our city's leafy upper class streets.
In a country that often finds a bush hat and our famous greasy rain coat in such a house, dreams of country life and the Australian bush, we have taken some out the back and kicked the hell out of them,in one case already pulled that tragic trigger.
Every action,every one, has an impact.

Belly,

And Juliar is such pillar of truthfulness?

If I was to climb a mountain and needed help I would pick you first shadow Minister.
You never give up, never turn your head from your task.
And I have to admire you for it,but lets have a Capitan Cook, [look at] your post.
We both know Julia is no leader,and not much good in truth.
At some level you too know,she meant it, when she said that statement you love to throw about.
In fact I have NEVER doubted your intelligence, you know, as I do, she stopped Rudd implementing his Carbon tax.
She wanted nothing to do with it,both during Rudd's go and at the time she said it you and I KNOW she believed it to be true.
Unfortunately, she will not eat the crow/humble pie and tell us that.
Rudd dropped his trousers on the party during that campaign.
We went from about 6 seat majority result to Hung Parliament.
It took a while weeks? as Gillard and Abbott BOTH offered the world.
To get power, Gillard was firmly told,Australia was openly, during those negotiations, independents in the lower house Greens in the Senate, insisted publicly on it.
Abbott put things on offer most un Liberal, Gillard found the very thing she did not want, but that helped her destroy Rudd, was her humble pie.
I still think it funny and like the idea her knife has stabbed her, but lie?
Continued.

You Shadow Minister know I have always and forever not trusted Gillard or her faction with in my party, Lathams left overs.
Stunning if you think of it, but it is said I am welded on Labor,I am but with a Wreckers hammer in my hands.
I would not sleep in a bed with dirty sheets and think far too much of my party not to question this mess.
Gillard is weak, in an effort to look strong, like a lot of cowards, she refuses to tell us the true story.
And she refuses to understand why Tony Abbott a man who lies every day, who heads a party lost, has fair weather.
These words she owes Australia, and the ALP.
I wish to tell Australia I am sorry,at the time I said those words I meant them.
I was not aware of a hung Parliament.
Or of what it would take, my party or conservative to get a government in place.
The government I lead is not just an ALP one.
Negotiations saw independents and greens win certain things.
While I did not knowingly lie I did take you, the people of Australia for granted, I should at the first opportunity have made the speech I just have for that I say again I am sorry.
Continued

You and I bloke are fire and ice, we just live in different worlds, and are both more than grateful for it.
I never post in rage,am not heated.on a mission to annoy you.
Have avoided you often, but it serves no purpose to not reply.
The charge, that I am blind Labor is silly, coming from you insulting.
But your instance, others too! on putting lie in to Gillards name.
Abbott has told lie after lie, day after day, his whole purpose is to instill fear, even if it drives our economy down.
Towns will be wiped of the map mining closed down carbon is real crap a plot?
He is not going to make it!
After Labor is defeated current conservative promises will be shed like leaves.
And the shedding will teach yet another generation do not trust the party of the well off to keep its word.
Shadow Minister the father of your party Sir Robert Menzies would in all probability sit on Labors bench's by mistake, they look much more like his party than Tony's lost tribe.
Lie? no one in the history of Australian politics lies as much as the mad Monk.

Except the Queen of Lies Juliar.

I shadow Minister spent not as much time in school as you did.
But I remember you, no not you kids just like you.
I started talking to you again because of those memory's.
School yard bully memory's.
Your insistence on getting under Lexis skin, because her views are not yours.
That one liner, its a neon light, the body language signal.
It says in caps, I am out of words am beaten, but am getting the last word in.
Gillard is a failure.
But never, ever can match the lies of Abbott.
If today, and we have never needed it more, both party's started to look at our country's needs.
Abbott and Gillard would be gone.
For one hour if you and I left our biases in a bucket at the door, a thousand liter tank for you.
And looked at the conduct of politics reporting in this country today.
Surely you would cry with me in shame that truth is buried under so much muck?
Abbott is not to lead your party to an election
History/your party will regard his leadership as a low point in Australian politics.
If you are alive in 15 years you will regret you slanted posts and dis own them.
Lexi, we waste our time, open discussion of Australian politics brings only defamation here.
Lets start other subjects .

Belly,

Perhaps you could point out some of his lies, most people including me don't know of them.

SM,

Most people read the newspapers, watch TV, et cetera.
They are well aware of Mr Abbott's lies. In fact hes'
even admitted them himself to Kerry O'Brien on the
7.30 Report.

All you have to do is Google "List Tony Abbott's Lies,"
and you'll get a list of numerous websites dealing
with many of his lies. Did you know that he was actually
pro the carbon tax?

Why ask Belly to do your research for you - do your own.

Anyway, here's some websites to help you deal with the
situation:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/liberal-leader-australias-prime-minister/story-e6frezzo-1225869968304

And:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPxP5NmRMnk

How soon we forget core and non-core promises.

How soon we forget WorkChoices which was foisted on an unsuspecting populace while the LNP had the numbers in the Senate. The costs to 'ordinary working families' of this IR legislation had far more impact that the Carbon Tax will despite the Abbott hysteria campaign.

While I don't support the Carbon Tax, have some Lib supporters completely forgetting that Abbott supported a Carbon Tax at one point and an ETS. Or doesn't that matter if your 'team' is putting up the policy. Sheesh...loyalty can be a good thing but not if it means blind justice.

Back to the business at hand.
Courier Mail 18 Aug 11, Page 13, top lefthand corner. "Abattoir payment admitted."
Chris Back provided an signed Affidavit that a worker was paid for the video footage. A worker admitted he was paid $A17. This is the 2nd. worker involved.
The Paper still says that Chris Back has failed to prove that the workers were paid to create the Video footage. Short of fronting all the people involved in the scam to Parliment, I wonder what would be accepted as proof.
It's starting to look bad for the Animal Liberationists. I wonder what the Animal Libs have got to say for themselves now.
"Oh no! Someone just provided us with the Footage. We didn't know it was fake."
By the way you two. Both partys are equally corrupt. It's only the names that are different.

Every one has opinions/thoughts/ideas.
And it is a right we claim to do so.
But in truth some, far too many, wish to denie that right to others.
Shadow Minister is but one here.
History will remember.
Yes bribes have been paid,yes in the past animal rights activists have got jobs in plants and filmed killing and other such things.
Any fair minded review of such groups will see actions of true radicals.
Right now we see film of sheep suffering over seas and on a boat broken down in Australia.
We should not ignore the latter, it never should have gone this long.
My question to Lyn White, have you thought about the starving people of Africa? what are you doing about that?
And Lyn, have you kept track of the suicides of live export farmers your $17 bought and paid for?

http://www.youtube.com/user/phonytonyabbott
Fair enough SM you got it right, it was you who told me to post links.
And it was you who asked me to post some.
This link leads to many more, shhhh, Tony is the star here no way you can get around it.
I promise.
I will find many more such items, they are far from scarce, and give you a few
my regards.
PS
Betcha happy you got me to post links.

In the interview where TA supposedly supports a carbon tax, he states " if the objective is to put a price on carbon" and then indicates a preference for a carbon tax over an ETS.

If you have to selectively quote some one out of context to show that he is lying, then you are grasping at straws.

Juliar Gillard 6 days prior to the election stood in front of the Australian people and pledged "There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead" and then went ahead with a carbon tax. That is not just a misunderstanding, or quote out of context, but a bald faced lie, and a betrayal of everyone that voted for her.

And if this was not enough, this was followed up by Wayne Swan accusing the opposition of scaremongering by suggesting that Labor would introduce a carbon tax, just as he is accusing the coalition of scaremongering now.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/05/18/tony-abbotts-struggle-with-the-truth/
Let us not forget SM these are direct quotes from your leader

Nothing compares to the all time corker:

"There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead"

http://www.climatespectator.com.au/commentary/lies-damned-lies-and-climate-politics
This ends my evidence gathering for this thread.
I will not again divert the thread some thing we both do often.
I remind you, it was you who both here and in many past threads asked me to post such links.
In effort to generate opened bate I had hoped for better than the defensive retreat seen in your one or two line answers.
Given 80 more links exist, I will in other threads drop the odd one in.

Belly,

What a political mouthpiece.

I see the little map on who is good and bad climate wise, and I see China India and South Africa, all of whom are vastly ramping up GHG output and making only token gestures to climate change.

BORING.....

SM,

Here's another "all time corker,"
for you ... It was done to Kerry O'Brien
on the 7.30 Report.

We all loved it when
Mr Abbott told all Australians that
they should not believe any statements
that he makes.

"The statements that need to taken absolutely
as gospel truth are those carefully, scripted remarks."

And he also added:

"I am totally aware that I'm not as intelligent
as I could be."

No surprises there.