London is burning for the third day.

Discuss.

'we shall hear of wars
and rumours of wars'..comes to mind

but it can come as no big surprise
to any watching the play unwind

http://whatreallyhappened.com/

so will be content to let the living tend the living

i met a guy and a gal[ross and elane kelly]
way back in 96..who told of this time to come
was actually a part of this current london time scale

he claimed to have time traveled..to this time
and i helped him present some demands to govt...to tell the truth
[and to busches and howards credit they did do that..[a bit]..at the time]

but this new generation resorted to govt knows best
bailed out criminals lawyers and bankers
and that ross predicted has now begun to happen

he was of course insane
and that was included honestly in his book
'all for the love of ana'[i dont think its ever gone to print]
and what i did put up about it...was only an extract

anyhow the govt was made aware that god is real
[but it seems they kept that proof secret]
i guess god knew that..and i soon realised they were keeping secrets and silence

so for me its simply
chickens comming home to roost

anyhow ross and elane appeared
repeatedly arround the tower of london
so if you get to the 'tower'.of london..anytime soon
let us know..if you bumb into a red haired nutter and his wife
telling you things[crazey things about time travel and meeting the 7 th angel...[well actually thats what he claims he is]..so i should read i met he

yep its just too crazey for serious contemplation
but hey he did predict it

and lets presume london [bits] actually are burning
[the reason apparently..is by reason of the plan
by the powers that be..[or were]

to release 'anthrax'..lab quality
just like last time..[ring a ring a rosie..anthrax symptoms?]

not sure wether to laugh or cry
i know god is real..[but not by ross's telling]
the leaders were told..given proof..but they stayed silent
and now we each need to learn the truth of a good god..the hard way

the looting thing
wernt that on the simpsons?
well done rupert..[lol]

at least we arnt talking about the carborn tax
but all them polies on holidays..[whats with that]

anyhow im going in

to find out
what really happend

http://whatreallyhappened.com/

Ok everybody. An open invitation from Is Mise to parade your preconceptions and prejudices...

>>London is burning for the third day. Discuss.<<

Off you go, have fun.

Don't worry that you wouldn't even be able to point to Tottenham, or Brixton, or Enfield on a map, or that you have never met anyone from there.

Just blather away.

England has imported too many unskilled and unemployable migrants and refuges from war torn countries whose moral values are envy and hostility.

There, but for a few years, go us.

wise words per ridicules
but mate these are the times of collective insanity
[your banking mates took their scam too far]

You have the power to cripple national consumerism.

Yes, You.

Walk away.

Walk away from mortgages, interest, fees, taxes and materialism.

First you must begin to look at your relationship with the paper in your wallet. You have to let it go. Money is fake and they give it in small amounts, then take it back in bigger amounts.

Always leaving you working your @ass off for a few material goods.
bought on 'credit'..intrest free till you miss a payment
when the whole lot with ursury comes due
and the fool con-sumers dont got a clue

Is it worth it?
Do you feel better or bigger or happier in your lexus?

Does it change your family dynamics
or the relationship with your wife?

You have to let it go.
Stop playing in the playground,
it's designed to never let you win. Why keep playing?

if you got nothing left to loose
you think [delusion]..you got everything to gain

[and in jail you get 3 square meals a day]

id put up links
but your too stuborn to read anything
thats a symp-tom....of a men-tall dis-ease

anyhow you just gotta laugh
men take things too seriously

no one can own 'anything'..or conive to enslave everyone
and stil claim to be sane..in insane times

your leaders were given proofs
the bankers were told

now chickens go home to roost
in time we will all see the joke
and die laughing...death where is thy sting*
[you got no tail]

anyhow what to play as lon-don burns

the wall?
or the writing..on the wall

Pericles:"Just blather away."

Thanks, I shall. Feel free to join in if you feel so moved. We might even learn something.

As one of those who's not been near London I'd be loath to comment too specifically, but aren't the riots basically a product of the same sort of tribalism and disadvantage that lead to the poll tax riots and the rise of football hooliganism and the last Brixton riots and so on?

If so, how can they be simplistically addressed? Essentially they're structural and they require structural changes. Such measures are always hard and usually expensive in one way or another, especially politically. How does an uneasy coalition deal with such matters?

Is there a lesson for Australia, or are the circumstances too different?

Pastor James Manning talks about what happens when Black people are left unto themselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdRDgXUgGAs

extracted from
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=16344

The Dow Jones has plunged several hundred points in the past month, and this plunge accelerated after the debt deal compromise was announced. Only rumors of yet another QE have stalled the implosion:

http://www.examiner.com/political-buzz-in-national/dow-falls-sharply-even-after-debt-deal-passes

HSBC; global banking behemoth, known silver market manipulator, and now layoff central, as they announce 30,000 new job cuts. Gotta’ love HSBC:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/08/01/uk-hsbc-idUKTRE76U0VB20110801

U.S. manufacturing fell off a cliff last month, posting the slowest growth in two years:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/01/us-usa-economy-idUSTRE7662I420110801

Home prices continue to spiral into the abyss as some banks decide to bulldoze properties and give them away to local municipalities rather than suffer the headache of trying to sell them:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-26/home-prices-in-20-u-s-cities-fell-4-5-in-year-to-may-case-shiller-says.html

http://news.yahoo.com/bulldoze-way-foreclose-102000063.html

The service sector, which accounts for at least 70% of the U.S. economy, has posted a steep decline in growth not seen since February of 2010:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/03/us-usa-economy-services-idUSTRE7723H120110803

U.S. consumers tightened their wallets this summer after two years of riding the recovery farce, signaling a sizable contraction in an economy dependent on constant spending:

http://news.yahoo.com/americans-cut-spending-first-time-20-months-123819626.html

Cities across the country are edging towards insolvency, as the municipal markets finally give way to lack of investment:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Cashstrapped-RI-city-files-apf-1809896377.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=7&asset=&ccode=

And finally, Vladimir Putin froths at the mouth telling a bunch of kids at a Russian summer camp that the U.S. is a “parasite on the global economy”, and that the dollar’s monopoly must end. China, of course, agrees:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/01/us-russia-putin-usa-idUSTRE77052R20110801

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-03/china-s-zhou-to-monitor-u-s-debt-as-xinhua-sees-bomb-yet-to-be-defused.html

So many negative economic indicators
in such a short period of time,

all while the debt ceiling debate is raging?
What does this mean?
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=16344

what really is happening
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

I haven't seen the reports, but I imagine that the value of imported reggae-making capacity more than outweighs the value of whatever was burnt, torn up, or carried away.

Apparently what started a day earlier
as a peaceful protest over a death of a
local man shot dead by police,
ended with rioting, and extreme violence.

According to Lateline and The Guardian,
this incident is more about looting
than protest. Its about opportunists
taking advantage of a police force stretched
to the limit. "Mainly young people using
rocks and bottles, police responding with
baton charges and dogs." However once the
extreme violence took place they moved the
appropriate level of resources in.

26 years ago the area was blightef by riots
triggered by the death of a local woman
during a police search. In the violence that
followed back then, a policeman was killed.

David Lammy, British Labor MP, summed up
the situation this way:

"We now need restraint and calm. And I say
to those who wanted to come to Tottenham to
cause violence and disturbance to stay away,
we don't need you. We don't want 25 years of
rebuilding community and trust destroyed
because of mindless nonsense."

Fingers-crossed that the situation will be
brought under control for the sake of the
communities, and people, involved.
Our prayers go with them all.

extreme violence took place - police moved
the appropriate level of resources in

Where are the water cannons?
Where are the 'rubber bullets'?
Where is the CS gas?

Is Mise
Do you believe in coincidences in this day and age?
I don't.
There was an article on the ABC earlier about lists of targets being relayed to the "Looters" via Texts and IM, one target would be hit, then the rioters would move on to the next.
The "Burning Police Car" is another give away that something is askew, it's been used all over the Western world, the Police park a vehicle in the path of "Rioters" and walk away from it, whereupon it's torched.
Provocateurs, Police/Security services or "other" would have started the original outbursts on Saturday, I'd lay money on it.
Just like in Athens in 2008, as one example, anyone still remember the name Alexandros Grigoropoulos?
Watch the alternative media, particularly the Anarchist sites, they have all sorts of "cop watch" activities going and for the most part they're reliable sources of info.
We'll find out why these "Riots" have occurred when we see what the British government does in the aftermath.

It is interesting, it has reminded me of an article I read about what
the scene would be post peak oil.
The article said that as growth reduced and unemployment increased
disenchanted people would easily turn to street rioting.
They would not understand what was happening in the economy but they
would decide that they are disenchanted with their lot.
As food prices rise the situation can only get worse.

The disconnect of the poorer groups would continue until
conditions changed such as they had to start actively doing positive
things to survive.
If they don't change they will be driven away by their community.
On BBC TV a community leader said that they are angry and that they
have "nuffing" !

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/mark-duggan-profile-tottenham-shooting
Just maybe we can talk about this issue.
In this modern world we do not need to live in the middle of it to understand it.
Both London papers I read tell this story in much the same way.
And in any country in the world it could happen.
Would anyone want to live in a world without police?
England once was relatively free of Guns.
Not now.
I come down on the side of the Police.
And wounder how much of this destruction was first fueled by lies then the greed of thieves?

Aren't there any soldiers left in England to go & sort out the moronic criminals ?

There, but for a few years, go us.
Hasbeen,
I think we have sufficient morons with attitude here to prove you right rather sooner than later. Many are in authority.

I notice that the media is good blaming almost all the rioting on thieving opportunists who may steal electrical goods.Where was the media outrage when the Elites of Wall St stole $ trillions in the last crash and are now doing it again with this crash.They looted our super funds and savings.

They are trying to tar all protestors with the same brush.These are poor people with no jobs and little education.What else do they expect when they see the elites taking what little they have left.

These riots will be used by the establishment to come down hard on anyone who protests and our democracy and feedoms will be diminished.

These riots and lootings are reminiscent of the Rodney King beating and repercussions in LA a few years ago. Australia had the Cronulla riots.

Of late there have been riots in Syria, Libya, Greece, Thailand and other places. What is causing it? Is is a growing discontent and distrust of governments (and mismanagement) or response to economic gloom?

I don't know.

"England once was relatively free of Guns"

Come now, Belly, that's not correct; up until just post WW I any Englishman could carry a concealed pistol without any hindrance from Government.

"The Tottenham Outrage is the name given to an armed robbery and double murder which took place in Tottenham, North London and Walthamstow, Essex, on 23 January 1909, which was carried out by two Latvian anarchists, Paul Helfeld and Jacob Lepidus (sometimes spelt Lapidus).See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tottenham_Outrage

At one stage in the pursuit of the criminals the police appealed to men in the street for arms and a number of men stepped forward and gave their pistols to the police.

"""
Of late there have been riots in Syria, Libya, Greece, Thailand and other places. What is causing it? Is is a growing discontent and distrust of governments (and mismanagement) or response to economic gloom?
"""

I think you're right on the money peli' on both counts!

*What is causing it?*

Many small reasons make one big reason. Via the benefit of smart
phones, Facebook and Twitter, its becoming far easier to organise
a riot. The evidence from Egypt was overwhelming.

Next we have a whole generation of mollycoddled youth who have
never known hard times. They expect life on a plate and if
society does not deliver, they will demonstrate.

Meantime the veneer of society is very thin, as we saw during
Katrina in New Orleans.

Meantime we have an energy hungry society of 7 billion, adding
another billion every 12 years, with rising energy and food
production problems.

So we live in interesting times. The cities will be where all
the problems are. Best I stick to the hobby farm, they won't
demonstrate out here :)

I tend to go with Lexi on this one.

The original riots were caused by the death of that local man, but no doubt the low-lifes in that area noted that they could loot some shops while the police were kept busy with the rioters and the burning cars/buildings.

They all texted their other low-life friends around England and suggested they try this tactic in their area.
What a cheap and easy way of scoring some new hi-fi gear, computers or TV's, and all with a very unlikely outcome of getting caught!

I watched some of the footage on several TV stations, and noted there did not appear to be any one obvious race of criminals involved, so it's not racially motivated. Any criminal can join in...

Arjay said;
else do they expect when they see the elites taking what little they have left.

However the gear they are stealing is in the shops in their own areas,
so someone living in their area must be buying these products !

No, the question why it is happening everywhere has been predicted.
Eygpt was an example, the demos were originally because of the high
price of food. The govt reduced the subsidy because Egypt's oil
production peaked and they had none to sell and so could not afford
to subsidise the food prices.
The Nile could not feed the population increase from 40 million to 80 million.

All the other places where these problems are arising have similar
stories. Not all so directly related to oil of course but perhaps
more indirectly related by very low economic growth or in cases such
as Pakistan , power blackouts and fuel shortages with significant contraction.

Bazz,

I think you'll find that the unrest in Egypt was fueled by decades of IMF and World Bank reforms which served only to enrich the ruling elite while the lives of ordinary Egyptians deteriorated.
Egypt was the World Bank's top reformer in recent years due to structural adjustment programs and other measures to attract foreign investment.

http://anilnetto.com/corporate-led-globalisation/imfworld-bank/egypt-followed-imfworld-bank-ideas/

The cause of the australian riots will be the utter mismanagement of public funding. Some pay so much on taxes & fees & permits & licenses etc etc whilst others can plan their comfortable retirement from the day they start in Public Service. It's the haves who had everything taken from them to give to those who never get enough & don't deserve who will be standing up.

Does England have a carbon tax ? The fires/smoke should prove a windfall for the Government then.

Poirot quoted an article that blames the IMF for Eygpt's problems.
However the article says this as well;

The turmoil in Egypt, Morocco, Algeria and Pakistan is also due to a
sharp escalation in commodity and food prices, part of global
capitalistic speculation. In Egypt, food prices have soared 17 per
cent of late and that’s going to hurt ordinary people as 40 per cent
of Egyptians earn less than US$2 a day
-.-.-.-.-.

One of the problems that many commentators seem to have is untangling
finance from the more fundamental causes of problems.
For thousands of years the Nile valley produced food for the Egyptians
as well as Rome.

However their population early 20th century was about 30 to 40 million
and was supportable. However during the last 100 years the population
reached 80 million. Their food demand was greater than the Nile could
produce so the government imported food subsidising its cost by using
the money from oil exports.

Their production of oil peaked in 1990 at 1 million barrels a day.
It has declined by 40% to date and continues down.
The population in the meantime increased to 80 million.
The government no longer had the funds to subsidise the food price.
The economy does not provide enough income for the 80 million.

Some variation of this theme is what we are seeing elsewhere.
Population is increasing, energy production is decreasing.

Think of this next time you hear complaints of food prices.

the media grandstanding is amazing
the call for 'special laws' will be bringing on worse riots

here we have an egsample of overzealios policing
[police abusing their powers]..and killing a living human being

THEN spreading spin...saying he had a gun

then we find out its a coated POLICE issue round
found in the police radio the round was shot into it
..by a police service revolver

every protest has adgetraiters
there to make the protest look bad
or to give the media footage..that discredits the protest/protesters

its basic propaganda 101
uk police..police policy..[for proffit]
the state serves the corperations of state..[not the peons[people]

govt coruption..that isnt policed
petty crime gets you shot

huge public treason[fraud]tort..isnt policed
in fact rewarded with board positions..for a corperation well served

there is treason in govt/law/medicine
do nothings that serve outside adgenda

yes the people shopuld not riot..
but govt shouldnt be trying to sustain the vile
they make laws for persons..but kids KNOW..they arnt a 'person'

a person is an entity created by the state
thus a corperation is a 'person under the act'

a drivers licence
is a 'person under the transport act'

a birth certification
is a 'person under the births/marrages act]

note your census...[muster]
must be filled in by persons
in blue..indicating a sick person
or black indicating a dead corperate 'person'

i filled mine in as a living flesh and blood being[in red]
and by being a living freeman sovereign being...bond free
i fill out my detail in purple

my census looks quite colourfull
ps folks dont forget to write in all your persons
[persions are a trust[legally wards of a trustee]

im a sovereign trustee
and reserve the right to form a mob
and dont care about being called to census/musterd like chattle

Day 4.

Hi Pericles,

I commend you for your amazing ability to bite your tongue. I'll say it for you:

"Blather on."

Thanks Joe.

>>I'll say it for you: "Blather on."<<

My favourite snippet so far...

>>Australia had the Cronulla riots...<<

Classic.

Loudmouth,

I get where you're coming from.
Whenever you and Pericles chime forth, it's erudite commentary and opinion...while the only thing the rest of us can manage is "blather". : )

UOG;
Someone has to say it so I'll be the mug !
For goodness sake please learn to use punctuation.
You do not use full stops or commers.
It makes it almost impossible to understand what you are on about.
I got to the stage, some time back, that as soon as I see the short
lines I stopped reading.

Pericles
In the context of my entire post the Cronulla riots were indicative of a growing hooliganism similar to what is being experienced in London albeit set off by different events. The incidence of rioting is higher than we have seen in recent years for various reasons.

Why is that worthy of your thinly veiled scorn to be labelled as 'classic'?

It is all very well to look down on other people and make sideline comments or judgements Pericles, but without context it is just as meaningless as the opening post that just puts it out there without explanation, background or any analysis.

Hey Bazz,
"Commers" are an old model of light commercial van popular in cheesy 1960's British caper flicks.

There were a couple of good articles on Infowars this morning... yes, really, not everything they talk about is crap.
http://www.infowars.com/the-rioting-underclass-product-of-a-diseased-culture/
http://www.infowars.com/reporter-witnesses-racial-attacks-in-uk/

The reason behind much of the crime in the first world is unemployment. The UK throws it's hands up to a 20% youth unemployment figure but you can add another 10%+ for the kids in other programs designed to give the perception of further training but are designed primarily to defray the figures. Why so many youth unemployed....free trade, globalization and the dismantling of tariff barriers. Most of our society ills come from this alone.

UK RIOTS: LOOTERS NOW ISSUING LEAFLETS TO SCARE PEOPLE FROM COMING FORWARD
http://21stcenturywire.com/2011/08/09/new-trend-in-uk-riots-looters-now-issuing-leaflets-to-scare-people-from-coming-forward/

The leaflet in question isn't coming from "Looters" it's one commonly circulated by so called "Anarchists" and other Leftist groups, the text has been around for years, notice it refers to "demos" not riots.
The leaflet is not designed to intimidate people into silence, it's a guide on avoiding arrest written for "activists" who've been involved in violent or illegal protests. I was given similar material around the time of the S11 protests and further back there was the same type of information being handed out by the Student Union when I was at Uni in the 1980's.
As anyone who's ever been involved in "street politics" knows these "Anarchist" and "Hard Left" groups are riddled with cops, provocateurs and other "Actors", in some cases the cops run the groups outright or place informers within to direct them, same deal with the "Nazis".

that's right Pericles. Let's not mention it and it will go away.

Enoch Powell was right.

Another poster made an interesting point in response to the 'Bear' article. As well as the hooligan element, there is a growing fed- upness with government bail outs of the big end of town while the middle classes and poor have to wear the new austerity measures.

Arjay also makes a good point along those lines, the hooligans are an easy target, and while I don't in any way excuse their actions, the impact of white collar crime and unethical dealings in business also have impacts long felt.

'there is a growing fed- upness with government bail outs of the big end of town while the middle classes and poor have to wear the new austerity measures. '

Once when I was young and naive I would have said a similar thing.

What is your alternative pelican? Let the Big end of town collapse, unemployment skyrocket, the tax base shrivel and the welfare bill skyrocket. Sounds like a plan!

Sure, the big end of town suddenly become socialists when it all goes pear shaped due to too much cocaine, and it gives me such a chuckle to see the market worshipers come with hat in hand to the government, but the poor will cop it regardless, because they started out poor. A little secret though, welfare comes from taxes. When nobody is paying taxes...

As to the riots, well, as with any mass shootings, riots, natural disasters, all with a barrow to push (pelicans anti capitalism included) will identify a cause that fits in neatly with their agenda. Ask formersnag and it's feminazis, ask others and it's muslims, ask other and it's secularism.

Pericles is proven right once again.

As a former long term resident of London, I'd say the people who I used to buy my drugs off have many and varied motives.

There's the thugs, the opportunists, the angry marginalised yoof, the people looking for a cause or meaning, the ones who have hated the police for years and feel more emboldened in the current climate, those who are bored and feel like this is all so exciting.

Anyone who has been young knows how intoxicating it is to band together against a common enemy.

It's all very Tyler Durden

We have no Great War, no Great Depression. Our great war is a spiritual war. Our great depression is our lives.

We've all been raised on myspace to believe one day we could become popular, sexy, and super cool. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very bitchy about it.

Just blame Twitter and Facebook.

Houellebecq,
Enjoyed reading your POV.

*Why so many youth unemployed....free trade, globalization and the dismantling of tariff barriers. Most of our society ills come from this alone.*

Funny that, Sonofgloin. Given the amount of women working today,
there would be far more jobs out there then ever there were,
when there were tariff barriers.

More like mommy and daddy now have so much money that they can
afford to buy the spoilt little brats a smartphone each, so
that they can run riot at the riots.

You generation has given kids life on a plate, now they expect life
on a plate and chuck a wobbly when they don't get it.

So I blame you parents :)

Days Run Away Like Horses Over the Hills

Houellebecq said;
When nobody is paying taxes...

Well then you get Greece !

Britain is well ahead in the low growth stakes, maybe they have even
gone into contraction. They just no longer have the money for the
welfare state but the people generally have not realised it yet as
they are still in the magic pudding mind set.

When they do realise it is so there will be a short dead silence, but
then they will look for someone to blame.
The only ones to blame are the governments that would not listen to
Colin Campbell when he warned back in the 1990s that oil production
would peak around 2006. The Blair government had a report prepared
on the problem and when they received it they said "Oh Dear hide it".
It took the Guardian newspaper to take the government to court to get
the freedom of information laws enforced before it could be obtained.

Because as Hirsch warned, it will take 20 years to make the
transition to other energy sources the situation will not improve,
and will probably get worse from this point on.
Expect to see time limits on unemployment benefits before too long.

"Welcome to the Post Peak Oil World !"

Houlley
How can you make a judgement that Pericles is right - he has not said anything.

No I don't want business to fall in a heap nor am I pushing a socialist agenda. It is modern governments that have socialised big business. Corporate welfare is the new socialist state and accepting that some of these decisions have been to 'save jobs' (whatever that means) it is hardly the place of government to provide an easy fail-safe position for the priveleged few when their greed runneth over. We are not talking about saving the corner store.

Obama has been pushed into a corner over tax increases for the wealthy while reducing social welfare for the poor.

Something is not quite right with the big picture. You can label it within the narrow confines of Left and Right but it is much more complicated than ideological biases, and much more to do with distribution and management of power.

Someone said;
"It is all very well to look down on other people and make sideline comments or judgements Pericles, but without context it is just as meaningless as the opening post that just puts it out there without explanation, background or any analysis."

The opening post seems to have worked!
Those of you who have been to Uni, will recognize the technique (-,-)

If these kids listened to more Desmond Dekker and less Tupac they'd probably have a better outlook.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWv9sraaCVA
"Get up in the morning, slaving for bread, sir, so that every mouth can be fed. Poor me, Israelite. Aah. Get up in the morning, slaving for bread, sir, So that every mouth can be fed. Poor me, Israelite. Aah. My wife and my kids, they are packed up and leave me. Darling, she said, I was yours to be seen. Poor me, Israelite. Aah. Shirt them a-tear up, trousers are go. I don't want to end up like Bonnie and Clyde. Poor a poor me, Israelite. Aah. After a storm there must be a calm. They catch me in the farm. You sound the alarm. Poor a poor me, Israelite. Aah. Poor me, the Israelite. I wondering a working so hard. Poor me, Israelite, look down on-a me sir"

A little Jimmy Cliff, man, never a truer word:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18EAqHx2lMk

Yabby:>> Funny that, Sonofgloin. Given the amount of women working today, there would be far more jobs out there then ever there were, when there were tariff barriers.<<

Yabby if that is a launch pad for your patented "we have never had it better", a rethink is in order. The obvious counter is that one generation ago the women had no need to work; the males wage supported the family in its entirety, a whole generation of women who could stay at home and lead the lifestyle relative to the earning capacity of the husband’s occupation or his propensity to make money.

Financial Times July 26th:
>> High levels of household indebtedness remain our key concern, and perhaps to a degree greater than house price levels in themselves. Both historically and in comparison to other OECD countries, Australian borrowers’ vulnerability to economic shocks is elevated and unprecedented. As demonstrated in the chart below, the levels of household debt have tripled in the last 20 years. This places Australian households among the most leveraged in the developed world, on par with those in the UK, US and Sweden. << http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2011/07/26/634296/

Yabby you keep telling me that we have never had it better, but mobile phones, technological trinkets and service industry jobs are useless when the bank comes a calling. Why reality escapes you Yabby eludes me, could be vested interest, ideological servitude or a genuine inability to understand what is presented to you, but that is you.

...As true today as in Charles Dickens day, in criminal circles, a “Fagin” is an adult (or older youth) who teaches a child to steal and keeps a minor portion of the loot. What do we call the gangs of children running riot in London, Fagins gangs or gangs of Fagins?

Growing up is no longer an option in the Capitalist West.Capitalism is now a genetic disease.

I commend this article by Paul sheehan for consideration. It sets out some of the structural problems that have caused this atrocious failurre of civil society.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/widespread-policy-failures-have-bred-a-feral-british-underclass-20110810-1imq6.html

"Why did it take so long for the menace within Britain to manifest itself more clearly? There are many places in many English cities to which I do not want to go and my friends who live in Britain do not want to go.

Places where the British underclass has incubated over generations of failed policy, behind inviolate barriers of class and social immobility, and home to a feral, fertile, fourth-generation welfare population.

Compared with its European peer group, Britain is off the charts on many measures of social dysfunction. Its rate of teenage pregnancy is almost three times the average for the other large advanced economies in western Europe - Germany, France, Italy, Spain and the Netherlands.

According to the European Commission, Britain has the highest number of violent crimes per capita in western Europe, and far more than its peer group of large economies.

Britain was the most violent nation in western Europe when it had a Labour government that was debasing the Treasury with social spending. So this violence goes much deeper than the spending cuts made by the coalition government digging Britain out from under a debt mountain."

Perhaps one of the expatriate Poms might like to comment.

The reason behind much of the crime in the first world is unemployment.
sonofgloin,
Yes & no, because the reason for unemployment comes from many of the unemployed themselves. It's a vicious wheel indeed. Think of it this way, an employer wants someone competent to make a profit. An employee wants an employer to pay him fairly. Many employees don't perform but the employer still has to pay award wages. That's why many businesses go off shore. That in turn causes unemployment in societies which require money to live in. Instead of providing each other with services & goods, our society has gone to simply feeding off each other & the least deserving reap the best rewards. It is plain & simply unsustainable. The London riots are the first proof. The criminal elements are already rubbing their hands waiting for it to happen here. Bring on National Service, get some discipline & get the idle minds into gear. Less machinery, more hands-on work is needed. It's character building, bureaucracy is the opposite. Stop public service growth & we prevent the fate that has befallen London.

lets anna-lies the british pm mr cameroon
put the camera on..he's back from 'holidays'..[in italy/bellisconie?]

talking about bailing out..the holy market forces..A-gain

and tough on kids with no lawyers/full weighty law
[not elites..who get banker bailouts
who do got lawyers]

lift the scales..from your own eyes
as mr camera-on...removes the weight of law
from police and stock brokers and bond brokers

[who got expensive lawyers...]

and 'trust'..the 16,000 police not to abuse
...having their untied hands...

as they egsert 'the full weight of law'
on kids..[who will be paying for the banker bailouts
the rest of their lives]

yes mr camera on..
tough on kids time

put em on boats
send them to the colenoscipies[colon-ies]

where were you
during the bank melt down
did you send in 16,000 police
to seize the assets of the people
or just meakly buy up their bad debts..

[noting a 500 point drop overnight..you just might get a 2 de chance...AND TAKE SOME ADVICE..

this time send in
*the FULL WEIGHT OF THE LAW

freeze the crime scene
we need to persicute *real crime
even if they got lawyers..[yes i know the kids dont]

but
lets see the me-asure of the law
[see if its just us..or if justice is as blind
as the scales..you got on your own eyes]

remove the splinters from kids eyes by all means
but mate remove the scales from your own eyes mate

no bailout of criminals
will save you this time
[nor them]..

we need to find the cancer
in the market and trust true capitalists..cut it out

NO MORE SOCIALISTIC bail;outs
this time

oh and that applies to juliar too
and wayne the swan tosser...

if the 'market'[gambling den]
falls more than 5 % today..declare
a crime scene..send in the FULL WEIGHT OF THE LAW..!

or you too
will be getting 'tough on kiddy crime'
while bailing out..the true criminal's

bah
wouldnt urinate on the lot of ya
even if the markette was taking a swan dive

much better to jail kids
for stealing a pair of socks

than to jail the moneyed elites stealing our savings..
[OUR compulsory super subsidy]..going up in dust today]..

FULL WEIGHT MATE..
by law
nothing less

make ALL abusers pay
not just kids..with bad lawyers

The use of rubber bullets has now been authorized.

Irish solution?

Anti I reckon that's right wing tosh. It's good because it evens up the left wing tosh of Pelican and Poirot:-)

I think the violence in English society compared to elsewhere in Europe is a lot to do with drinking culture, and the silly idea of council estate tower blocks (You might have seen them on The Bill:-), which created vast ghettos of underpriveledged and encourage a culture of gangstars and intimidation and machismo in the yoof.

I reckon split the poor people up and spread em around so they envy the richer people and work harder rather than spend their time ducking and diving in a culture supportive of dependency and deliquency.

ASBO heaven for the chavs.

ASBOs being a way to criminalise behaviour that is lawful, and give police an option to act on suspicion and prejudice. I can understand an atagonism toward the authorities just for these thinly disguised laws against being a pikey.

But if you see the state of some of these council estates, man, it's a sight. Some are in prime real estate locations, and the tenant gets the right to eventially buy the pokey unit, and I went to view some nicely renovated ones to rent. While the unit was ok, the environment is a pissed/puked in stairwell with needles, loud domestic disputes, and gangs roaming the quad in the centre of the tower block. I said No thanks BTW.

There are other non-tower council houses. One I rented the tenant was sub-letting his council house to us while he lived somewhere cheaper to make a profit, and we had to pretend he lived there and collect his mail.

Chavs *worship* trainers BTW. I think it's unfair on those looters it must have been so tempting and I'm sure many more resisted the temptation.

pelican,

Pericles was right in that people will blame whatever suits their agenda with little real insight into the society they critique. He's got me pinned, and I reckon he's got the rest of you pinned too.

Neatly summarized, Houellebecq, thank you.

>>As to the riots... all with a barrow to push (pelicans anti capitalism included) will identify a cause that fits in neatly with their agenda. Ask formersnag and it's feminazis, ask others and it's muslims, ask other and it's secularism.<<

In other words:

>>An open invitation from Is Mise to parade your preconceptions and prejudices<<

Who said that? Oh, yes...

Possibly Houlley, but I stand by my belief that disparity is a strong contributor to unrest. I reacted to Pericles comment on my mention of the 'Cronulla riot' because I assumed (wrongly maybe) that it was a judgement on racism from the 'high moral ground' when it was merely an addition to the list of the growing incidence of riots around the world regardless of the impetus.

You summise I am anti-capitalism, I am not as I think it is probably the only system that works. However not without some constraints and an awareness of it's weaknesses as well as it's strengths with mechanisms in place to soften those harder edges.

With the swing to the Right and far Right in the modern political landscape, I find it necessary to balance the equation. Think of it as a social service. :P and :).

You got one thing wrong there Houelle, with your spread them around idea.

Yes it may make them envy the rich people more, but make them work harder, yer right.

The thing it might do is increase their efficiency in crime.

They'd be closer to their night's target, so with less traveling, may be able to rob a couple of houses in one night. It will certainly make casing the targets easier for them, as they'd have a reason to be in the area.

Then the cars they like to joy ride in, or steal, will be nice & handy. Isn't a car theft supposed to be the reason for this lot?

Houellie,

I agree with your latest - tower-block council estates were an exceedingly bad idea.

The rioters are just doing what government does all the time - helping themselves to other people's property.

And this has all come about the NO smacking program. Quote! Not you know why their all disrespectful little a holes.....From the ages 2 to 5 that's how to make a decent adult.......don't smack or show who's boss.....don't say I didn't tell you so.....and enjoy your kids that have respect for you or little else.

But you can always go and visit them in jail.

No child under 16 should be out on the streets under any circumstances, and if you do, its your embarrassment to show how you cant control your children in a modern 21 century society.

shame on you!

LEAP

Actually, pelican, you're right. Nothing to do with racism.

>>I reacted to Pericles comment on my mention of the 'Cronulla riot' because I assumed (wrongly maybe) that it was a judgement on racism from the 'high moral ground' when it was merely an addition to the list of the growing incidence of riots around the world regardless of the impetus.<<

My "Classic!" observation was a response to the very idea that Cronulla should be added to the "list of the growing incidence of riots", at all.

Apart from a bit of grandstanding by the Alan Joneses of this world, who wanted for their own reasons to categorise it as racial confrontation, Cronulla was nothing more than a kiddie-sized scuffle over a bit of beachfront, helped along by a few beers.

And it was six years ago. Nothing since.

Here's an interesting observation on Cronulla. Followed by a couple of posts.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/12/10/the-cronulla-riots-five-years-on/

There is a link at the top of the page to Hot Topics: London Riots.

Compare, and contrast.

The ineluctable fact is that even the most under-privileged of our society, and our "yoof", has a life that is so far and away better than that of a youngster in the drab, decaying, soul-sapping greyness of high-rise housing estates in the UK.

Here's a thing. Take one of the rioting London lads aside, whisper confidentially that we have riots in Sydney, too, and tell him about Cronulla.

Watch his eyes boggle at the idea that anyone who has access to a beach, in the sunshine, and can actually go surfing every day, would find a cogent reason to riot.

We are a long, long way from having UK-style discontent. We are even further from experiencing politically inspired unrest as seen in Pakistan, Syria, Egypt, Iran... as Crocodile Dundee would say, that's not a riot - THIS is a riot.

There are those who will tell us that life here is becoming unbearable (usually because of "other races and/or religions"), and we are all 'rooned.

Merely manufactured misery.

That's good pelican,

'With the swing to the Right and far Right in the modern political landscape, I find it necessary to balance the equation. '

'You summise I am anti-capitalism, I am not'

So, that means I am not anti-feminist. I just don't mention the good parts, just like you rarely sing the praises of capitalism. Except grudgingly as a disclaimer of course.

I have said before that I balance out the zietgeist of ubiquitous feminist social commentry. (ie The constant sophistry and hyperbole about 'objectification' and the 'gender pay gap' and the general tone about the near universally predatory and abusive male and the helpless vicim female, or as I term them; the downtrodden martyrs of society).

PS: It amuses and interests me how stridently you object to being called a raving commo:-) Wear your red colours with pride girl!

Comrade;-z

Hasbeen,

When a teacher encounters a group of kids disrupting the class, dispersing them amongst more conscientious students removes them from the one-upmanship and encouragement to some degree. Sure it's no panacea, but the fringe dwellersare emancipated from the gravitational field of the ringleaders, and that can emancipate the ringleaders to a degree also.

When all your neigbours, friends and relatives are on welfare, pregnant at 16 and on drugs, it seems a more normal existence. If you cant beat em join em.

It's debateable though wether the environment of poor little rich kids with the keys to the absent Daddy's sports car and a lonely and emotionally unstable mother spoiling them, ;leading to a cocaine fueled life of insider trading short selling and relationships with 'colourful' businessmen is really an improvement.

Best we aim for the slog it out, pay a mortgage for the McMansion, hell in flurescent lighting middle managers, salt o' the earth 'Tradies' and Soccer mums and 'good sport' nurses for our civil security and prosperity I reckon!

Society should mix like a good Irish pub. Suits and Workers, kids and old farts, all having a laugh together, keeping each other in line.

Houlle I’m not sure spreading the ghetto dwellers around will help… it will be more convenient for them to burglarize their neighbours than have to catch a bus to the town centre to smash shop windows (which is the same as hasbeen has said)

And lets face it, those people who can, choose to move rather than live next to the sort of filth who riot.

Of course, having lived in UK for many years I can tell you the problem of tower blocks is simple… they improve the available land use to better meet public housing accommodation demands and unlike Australia, the UK is a tiny island with, relatively, not much land

Finally… remember, you might take the indolent out of the ghetto but you cannot take the ghetto out of the indolent… and it is hard to defuse rampant and inflated expectations above the intellectual limits of someone who didn’t bother with school

Personally I reckon if these thugs were left to work to feed themselves or starve, instead of relying on the “welfare state” career model, they would be so exhausted that they would have no energy to riot.

Peter Hume…. Oh I wish I had said that…. :- )

Indeed QuantumLeap… a few whacks and these rioters might have got to understand the concept of respect for other peoples property, “boundaries” and responsibility for own actions

Oh you old softie Col.

Houellebecq it is good to see you back posting :-)

Cols 100% correct. This new don't smack a child is why home-life for some, is just a living hell.

The super-nanny may just have to start a franchisee expansion into a multy million dollar business for all the brats that the goody-too-shoes have made.....I was going to say for the best of mankind, but LONDON AS NOW SHOWN US what happens when lack of discipline only keeps DOCS and others employed know-it all-nothings in a job at the experience and deception of their own careers, because what a money spinner in can be, if your in the right employment:) The law makers are now are not so sure.

LEAP

Your knickers are showing Houlley, but I will bite.

My only objection to the Communist label being bandied about is it avoides and detracts from rational and reasoned debate. We are hardly likely at this point in history to be invaded by Communists but far more likely to be influenced by a growing Right agenda which like Communism has little to offer in a democracy. I don't lose sleep over it but will correct a poster who makes false assumptions. One could argue there is no need as words speak for themselves and that is probably valid. Perhaps it would be better to ignore it.

Any society that is dominated by far Left or far Right of politics are generally ne-er do wells.

Occasionally one just can't help wonder if there is no logical reasoning present to argue a position and the poster resorts to baseless accusations, maybe they need to reflect on their own belief systems.

I don't know any Communists in Australia, they are thin on the ground and the chance of meeting one is slim, but according to the Conservative old blokes on here one would think there is a veritable army of them hiding in wait and I don't just mean from the posters where there may be health issues.

It is amusing nevertheless. I do look good in red but not for the reasons you imagine.

I would not know if you are a feminist or not Houlley - it all depends on your definition as it seems there are some odd interpretations out there including grand world conspiracies. :)