http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/the-first-boatload-of-asylum-seekers-destined-for-malaysia-has-been-intercepted-off-scott-reef/story-fn59niix-1226105448356

With a boat arriving every week at present, the heat will be on Chris Bowen. The proof of the pudding will be:

1 Can they implement this option, and what resistance will they face from the refugees and the activists.
2 Once the asylum seekers are in Malaysia, if any of them are mistreated, the deal will look very shaky.
3 If the rate of arrivals is not significantly slowed, the 800 quota will be filled in 4 months, and then what?

As far as the coalition is concerned, this is an opportunity to keep beating labor, and at $1/2m per boat person, this could be the biggest white elephant after the school halls program.

With Malaysia being a hot-spot for extremism Australia is definitely inadvertently recruiting trouble. I would have thought that there was ample evidence that sending boat people to Malaysia is exactly what should not be done.

My honestly held opinion follows.
My post history clearly shows a willingness to kick my party, in fact gives evidence I do often.
In the matter of this plan I went of early, declaring my party mad, and this plan wrong.
I was,, yet again quite wrong.
This plan will not help Labor keep the lefts vote.
It will not help my country's international image.
It will stop the boats, maybe 4 or 5 more will come but in time watch NZ get them, not us.
Conservatives stopped them, won elections by doing it.
All very well to point to the inhumanity but lead/pushed by Abbott's dysfunctional win at any cost team and middle Australia Labor acted.
It is my view, Abbott too knows it will work, he is wringing his last drops of rage/vote swinging out of it.
His tool now? to highlight its inhumanity, and to hide his Shadow Ministers intentions to?
Send boat people to? IRAN!for processing.
Soon, driven by drought starvation millions of world wide refugees this plan, to not except gate way arrivals will in all probability be taken up all over the world.
Then? remember this is about politics not care for humanity on Conservative side.

Belly,

While I understand you views, the reality is that the liberal government had the identical problem of boat arrivals in 2000, and it took a lot of work to break the people smuggler's business model.

Secondly Julia Gillard and labor are responsible for the most breathtaking hypocrisy, and for this they deserve a spanking.

Juliar, being the shadow minister for immigration in 2001/2 drew up the changes to the immigration policy that Rudd implemented, and spared no opportunity to shrilly denounce the pacific solution as failed and inhumane, and that the boat arrivals were entirely due to the push factors, and nothing to do with the pull factors. Then at the last election, she pledged that she would not send refugees to a country that was not a signatory to the UNHCR convention.

What we have now is a policy that is founded on the concept of breaking the pull factors of the Gillard solution by sending asylum seekers to a country that is not a signatory to the UNHCR, where their conditions would be far worse than at Nauru, and where their personal protections have no concrete guarantees.

Secondly, the number of boat arrivals in the last 3 months was greater than the last 6 years under the pacific solution, so even if it has reduced the number of boats, it is still far far worse than under the liberal government.

Finally, even if the boat slow to half of the numbers in June/July, the 800 places of the 4 year agreement will be filled in 6 months.

This has all the hall marks of yet another labor stuff up.

I am quite happy to say I think it is going to work.
And in no more than 3 years much of the oppose for its own sake/manufacturing of issues will be understood by those being coned today.
Unfortunately that is the only real policy in Tony's bag at present.
Look deeper, understand the harm this issue and its hurt inflicted on Labor by it.
Yes greens and such will whimper and groan scream and shout, be of far more use to conservative politics than refugees, such is always the case.
But it will work.
To combat that? Abbott will back the same groups, him and his media mates will dig and mine for signs of cruelty in Malaysia, may even pay redirected refugees to whimper.
But the boats will stop.

SM,

"Breathtaking hypocrisy" for sure.....

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-01/gillard-asylum-seekers-malaysia/2819786

As Ross Peake writes in the Canberra Times -
"It would be much cheaper to process boat
arrivals on Christmas Island and increase
the humanitarian intake, but that wouldn't
be seen as tough."

Being seen as tough is what this deal is
all about.

SM:>> With a boat arriving every week at present, the heat will be on Chris Bowen. The proof of the pudding will be:<<

SM I am pleased to see that you STILL have expectations of this government, I have none. Am I imagining this, but the gov library page that records boat arrivals since 1976 is down, probably for the count, get the pun?
Step 1. www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/bn/sp/boatarrivals.htm

Step 2. Get your morning Pravda everything’s fine and the Rabbitoh’s come back from 20 down.

Belly once again, the party you support are not in Canberra. I heard a blue ribbon Lib bemoaning the fact that old Labor had gone and with it went Australian political parity.

RETRACTION: THE SITE IS BACK UP. It seems that there were too many users.

I am quite happy to say I think it is going to work.
Belly,
yep, for anti Western, Anti Australia.

If the new plan reaches what the pacific solution achieved of 3 boats a year, then they can claim it has worked.

Until then, all they have is less of a balls up, but still a balls up.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2820028.html

Here is an article from the ABC showing that the support for the Malaysian solution has crashed.

I would guess that the Labor policy development team is secretly working for the opposition.

I guess we should be grateful that the ALP has at least opened up another line of business, but not “paid people trafficking”. I didn’t expect our government to create its own business model for this disgusting trade.

And I’m not grateful; I am deeply ashamed by the Australian government. I have to wonder what sort of Australians could possibly support this policy.

It is just another failure of the "government of failure"....

doubtless it will produce its own deaths...

like the insulation scheme

and now they are messing with health....

which is certain to produce more deaths

Howard and Co... those were the days when we had it so good

We cannot afford more failures from this bunch of amateurs, independent turncoats and (of course) the watermelons

We need a Liberal government back and soon

Dear Col
Hoping for a Liberal Government soon?
Howard was a deceitful little toad, and the Mad Monk is no better.
The Labor government at least are trying to get things done.....btw I am neither a Liberal nor Labor voter., politicians these days are an insult to the average persons intelligence, perhaps we plebs are more intelligent, if I said and did the stupid things that Abbot is saying I would expect to be booted out of the Party, and justifiably so.
NSB

Shadow Minister said

*Shadow Minister,Secondly, the number of boat arrivals in the last 3 months was greater than the last 6 years under the pacific solution, so even if it has reduced the number of boats, it is still far far worse than under the liberal government.

Finally, even if the boat slow to half of the numbers in June/July, the 800 places of the 4 year agreement will be filled in 6 months.

*This has all the hall marks of yet another labor stuff up.*

Shadow Minister,

Have to addmitt your right of course- too true. I am not in my own way against the deal done with Malaysian solution. We need to be on as good terms with them as possible. Although it didnt go too well in Melbourne with the diplomats the other day I hear.

There is an old wise saying SM: The man I ""see- is the man I be""

To suggest Tony Abbott may even pay redirected refugees to whimper.

I find myself in the unfamiliar territory of defending Mr Abbott.

I dont think any person politician or not should be subject to those types of allegations when they are not present and unable to defend themselves. Whatever he does he doesn't deserve that.

Noisy Scrub Bird

"Howard was a deceitful little toad, and the Mad Monk is no better."

I am not sure where you place on the "scale of deceit" Jughead Gizzards decision to impose a Carbon Tax when she is on the record as saying the opposite before the election which swept her to minority government power... with the aid of ratbag independents and watermelons

but I would suggest "deceitful little taod" is a fairly high honour, in relative terms.

"The Labor government at least are trying to get things done."

Yes, one can always rely on the socialist swill to waste money soing what does not need to be done and to regulate what does not need regulating....

It is the perennial problem with small minded, busy-body nosey beaks

" I am neither a Liberal nor Labor voter"

having difficulty scribing the X on the voting slip?

or maybe you are a Green - aka one of Lenins useful idiots....

whatever way you vote is an irrelevantce to me.

and even knowing what it might be will not influence the way I vote, ever.

"perhaps we plebs are more intelligent, if I said and did the stupid things that Abbot is saying I would expect to be booted out of the Party, and justifiably so."

It would be difficult for you, as a non-voting fence-sitter to be kicked out of any party, NSB, assuming you were accepted for membership in the first place (which one has to be when joining the Liberals, at least - trust me, I know

spindoc " I didn’t expect our government to create its own business model for this disgusting trade."

as far as "disgusting" goes, on past observations of the depths to which socialists will stoop, I would not be surprised if the sale of human organs was on Julia's list of new business ventures (to replace the manufacturing sector, which is being pushed off shore by carbon taxes)... and the refugees... maybe they are the early "lab rats" to secure a reliable donor supply.

I really can't believe Labor thought the Malaysian solution was a good idea at all- and makes me wonder if they really ARE oblivious to why people supported the Pacific Solution;
-It's not about 'looking tough'
-It's not about 'those bad people smugglers'
-It's not about 'worrying about leaky boats'
-It's not about 'boats' at all

It IS about discouraging people Australians see as a threat from getting into the Australian community.

And all Australians see is a proposal that INCREASES the amount of people we're getting, that costs us more money and doesn't seem to achieve a single thing- except have the labor party put on the most unconvincing show ever.

While we are entertaining this circus- Denmark, France, Holland and Switzerland managed to achieve what WE are trying to by simply making ACTUAL immigration policy, banning accessories needed by religious extremists, and advertising themselves, one way or another, as a fundamentalist's idea of a nightmare country.

Hello Noisy,

You'll probably discover that Neanderthal men
are still with us today. You know the type:
Releases bodily gases in public, adjusting in public,
making vulgar gaging sounds, leaving the toilet seat up.
And of course most important is their communication
in code (consisting of neanderthal words like -
socialist swill, watermelons, constant references to Lenin -
show them where's he's buried and they'll show you a
"communist plot," and so on). They do this because that's
all they have - and so that like-minded males understand.
We've witnessed this "secret" language on this Forum,
not pretty.

Best ignored.

You aint seen nothing yet. The Malaysian solutions big test will come with the transfers.

I predict that when we attempt to transfer the select few (after exempting a whole range of special secret categories), there will be a circus.

By the time we come to that, all the illegals will have been well briefed -- by the refugee industry -- on how to play to the media. And likely put on an academy award winning performance when authorities attempt to move them.

We'll hear all the old slogans about police brutality and all the old "shame shame shame" mantras from the left side of the house.

Julie will be hoping that the transfer quota gets filled quickly so she doesn't have to hold the line.

Dear SPQR,

I wouldn't want the PM's job -
it's a very difficult and complex problem
a no-win situation no matter what you try
to do. You won't make everybody happy.
You're either too tough or too soft.
The position of PM may change - but the
problems won't go away.

Lexi,

It's not difficult or complicated, simply re instate the pacific solution. It is far cheaper and humane than the Malaysian solution.

I'm with Belly, this might be the first thing little Julia has tried to do, that may work.

Yes we can expect a circus when the first couple of lots are loaded for Malaysia. That is to the policy's advantage. A world wide coverage of the boat people being hog tied, & dragged into the back of a hercules would be the quickest means of getting the boats stopped.

They probably should stage such a media event with actors, if it doesn't happen in fact. Really good publicity.

To the fools who talk about our international standing I say codswallop. Every thinking person in the civilised world will be right with us. It's only the ratbags who won't, & it's about time we told them to go jump.

Dear Hasbeen,

It certainly will be interesting to see how
this Malaysian solution pans out - long term.
And whether the people-smugglers will get the
message. The numbers of refugees are certainly
not going to decrease anytime soon - and
whether they will still aim for Australia
despite all these attempts to stop them -
we'll just have to wait and see. Desperate people
do desperate things. As I stated earlier - no
matter who's the PM - the problems won't go
away. This is a tough stance by our PM - let's
see if it works.

Hasbeen
I agree its a very good plan because if the Malaysians are involved in stopping the boats it will happen. They wont pussy foot around.

Lexi I agree shes got a tough job and given her unwelcome start shes holding her own . Look she probably may have been able to hold out on the carbon tax tbo- Lets face it the greens were never going to go for the libs- just look at the history of the two parties.

That aside we are coming into tough times with the global situation.

Kerryanne says:
<< if the Malaysians are involved in stopping the boats it will happen. They wont pussy foot around.>>

Can’t agree. I suspect Malaysia bought the deal because it allowed them to offload 4000 illegals.
4000 unwanted to OZ, and if the truth be known, the 800 we send them will eventually somewhere along the line, windup back in OZ , as well.

It’s a win-win for Malaysia and a lose-lose for OZ. And to top it off the OZ govt has agreed to bank roll the whole venture!

The Malaysians must be laughing all the way to their (OZ govt subsidized) satay lunches : Has to be the worst example of a gullible occidental tourist being sold a pup by a wile oriental trader.

SPQR
Mo Mo you mis understood me. Its a swap the boats NOT stop the boats she aiming for.

Of course! its a rotten deal but it is good that this government are trying to be on some first name basis with Malaysia.

That was my only point. She needs to put Howards policy back in place - of course.

They however wont pussy foot around because its a good deal and any terrorists will be able to arrive first class.

Did you know its costing us for each about a hundred times more than a air liner ticket:)

Hopeless! For that price I would stop the boats myself- especially when all i really had to do was er, swop them:)

May I just register my absolute disgust in the Gillard government for their reprehensible policy of sending unaccompanied children to Malaysia.

What sort of insular cringing mentality abounds in 21st century Australia? Who says nothing stays the same.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-05/barnett-blasts-children-being-sent-to-malaysia/2826418

It is a strange time when the ALP has a crueller policy to refugees than the Coalition.

I wish to support the government and warn of next weeks headlines.
Tony Abbott well aware Australians mostly supported him drove Gillard to act.
Some one in her Cabernet has come up with this scheme.
Smugglers.intending, maybe acting on advice from Australian refugee groups, maybe even some in the greens party.
Put 12 or 14 unattended children on this boat.
Any weakening at this time will lead to boats carrying children arriving.
Then parents seeking to come too.
Removing governments right to SELECT migrants.
Harsh yes but is this country to fold to criminals.
We did take 5 for 1 the only deal we could make.
But after it works IF WE LET IT we will stop many thousands coming, the boats will stop.
WHY? why would I include the greens in a potential plot to make this fail?
Assure as those first people fly out to Malaysia next week Australian media refugee groups, some who talk to smugglers before the boats leave Asia!
Greens and more will be out filming in that country and farming hate for the policy that can end both massive new arrivals and the debate.
Read between the lines next week head lines do we want this to work or is it better to fail for Abbott's sake.

SM,

I'm with you on this one. All the hand-wringing and platitudes demonstrated by Labor at the incarceration of asylum seeking children under the Howard Government - and look what they come up with when presented with the same problem.

It's hypocrisy of monumental proportions.

One thing most prosperous countries usually pride themselves on is the supposed respect for the right of a child to be protected by those adults on whom their care rests. For a government to set in train a process whereby children are shipped off like so much baggage as a means to an end defies morality.

Poirot

>> It's hypocrisy of monumental proportions. <<

Agreed.

However, what is Abbott's alternative?

Nauru.

Not really an alternative at all. Minors were still locked up, media and the public were banned from entering the Nauru compound, along with inhumane treatment of refugees by treating them as criminals.

The failure to humanely assess boat refugees by either the Libs or Labor is why I have not and cannot envision voting for either party in the near future.

Ammonite,

I wasn't defending Nauru....as you point out, political ball games such as this dehumanise refugees rendering them merely pawns in the midst of tactical maneouvres.

Dear Poirot and Ammonite,

It's the people who put the children on the boats
and pay for their transport that are the ones
risking their children's lives. This doesn't say
much for the character of the parents to exploit
their children in this way. As I understand
it - the refugees, including the children will be
taken to Malaysia and they will be placed in facilities
approved by and monitored by the Australian Government.
What is the alternative - the children could be taken
back to Indonesia and put in the care of the parents
that paid for their transport in the first place.
That might be a better solution.

I'm surprised at the Opposition who have made this a
more politicised issue without offering any solutions.
Would it be better to take the Children to Nauru and
abandon them?

I too am slowly going off politics completely.
I'm sick and tired (as I imagine a lot of people are)
of the constant condemnations and criticisms
and trying to pull each other down amongst our elected
parliamentarians. It's the biggest turn-off ever.

Lexi

Have you seen the children””? These are not children by their own laws- the are quite hard grow up tough . Most handle a fire arm as well as our army guys- better. None were young- 14 isn’t young for them. There is one young child ok.
You say the are going back alone – untrue.
They came alone - & they go back where they came from-- in a few hours flight with escorts onboard.’

They go back to what they are used to- only better because the eye of the world is on them.Or as you suggested yourself. Its certainty not as cruel as live exports yet there is silent on that by most.



You say your fair and don’t like *seeing condemnations and criticisms and trying to pull each other down **

Well where were you speaking up about the dreadful posts used by your ALP off mate .? What about him calling people grubs and other names for months? You all saw the *low act pulled on people not even in this forum to defend themselves – nope not one word.
I am of no particular party. I just speak up for if i see something unfair. Now your sick of politics since Col Rougue posted a few truths imop.

Sorry mate but favorite or not you have not been as quick to speak out about standards before. Just as your entitled to its clear your an old alp gal & good.

Now I don’t know Col Rouget guy but he pretty on the money lexi imo.

Not only - hes at least a SOH by the looks

Ok Foxy take car

Dear Kerryanne,

Sorry, I really don't know what you're on about.

Lexi,

Well it's all very well to criticise the parents of these children, yet any government who would compound a child's misery is not one that represents any valid moral code.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-05/un-in-malaysia-children-plea/2825480

"Monitored"....just how closely do you really think a Malaysian detention centre can be monitored? A dose of reality is required here. Australians aren't even cognizant of conditions and practices in our own detention centres (nor would most of them care).

Here's a little info on practices in Malaysia:

http://thejakartaglobe.com/opinion/refugee-eal-ignores-malaysias-record/454776

Kerryanne,

Children are children - your viewpoint appears to be racially skewed.

I'm against the live export of livestock and children - what about you?

Btw, for someone who declares they owe allegiance to no particular party, You're pretty handy with a boot into the ALP in most of your posts.

Dear Poirot,

Thanks for the links.
I guess I was trying to see some possible positive
aspects of this miserable situation. Because it's
something that we're stuck with for a while at least.
The government can't win in any situation with this
complex problem. They're accused of being soft -
now they're accused of being tough. And nobody is
coming up with a better solution. What does Australia
want? Perhaps people should have a vote on the matter?
I'm sure it will be an election issue.

You do realize that the message this policy DOES send to asylum seekers heading for Australia is "I only need to stop at MALAYSIA and apply for Asylum there- and the rest of my trip is funded by the Australia Government with guaranteed visa due to a loophole!"

You know, I'm actually quite certain that Labor is actually trying to dramatically increase our intake, but in a way that pretends they're "getting tough".
Also note that few people who preferred the Pacific Solution would not be so quick to criticize because doing so might start making it appear that they are criticizing an attempt to put up a 'tough' and 'deterring' immigration policy- and may start the wrong kind of campaign to reduce our restriction policy.

Either way, while we are orchestrating and funding hundreds of plane flights between our countries and having to accomodate a drastically increased intake (and liability that we will get religious nutters, as the refugees were granted status by Malaysian government standards for acceptable refugees rather than ours); we could have saved ourselves the entire mess by simply making an ad campaign and aired it in the countries where our intakes are coming from, describing Australia openly supports and embraces gay couples, Denmark's cartoons, and is going to ban the burqa- and watch the intake suddenly stop.
The fact that all three of the above aren't actually true won't matter.

King Hazza,
Perfect ‘’ Pls toss your head in for PM & for that you’re on my favorites list.

Dear Lexi

Sorry, I really don't know what you're on about.*
I meant from the moment I joined the little alp buddy has attacked broken rules, shouted, printed private names not even *on the site to defend themselves inappropriate unprofessional uncouth comments bullied and attempted @#* dominated .
As soon as Col Rouge gentleman gives the alp bully a bit back- you my friend ask for civil *behavior. I for one would like a happy topic agree 100%



Dear Poirot,

Its good your against live animal exports because as our Australian Animals we* have a duty of care.

Big difference between putting someone on a plane( for a couple of hours to go into accommodation )– or to be tortured & bashed slowly to death with chains and stabbed 33 times isn’t there.

Have you ever met some of these 14 & 16 year olds. Who do you reckon pays the fair of *some at least.

Surely if they come all that way in a boat with the others-

They can travelled back with the same they came with first class a few more hours. Where they will be fed accommodated & we silly bunnies will pay their fair back a few months later.

*You're pretty handy with a boot into the ALP in most of your posts*.

Heres the funny thing- I was backing ALP when I came- here for sake of the bill for live export tbo.

Since they are doing a back flip- + especially seeing that alp persons posts here its turned me around.

Which is why I said hes Tony Abbotts best advocate:)

You have to addmitt thats kind of funny.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/malaysia-bound-deportees-on-hunger-strike/story-fn3dxity-1226109508720
It has started.
Look if you will at the fact telephone links exist between refugees and Australian groups.
What out comes do Australian Conservative voters want
What out comes do Labor voters want?
Can I with confidence say most want an end to boats arriving here.
If true, could I also say in this debate Nehru only lets us send them to another rented Island.
That things have changed, Nehru may not stop the boats this time.
I want to highlight an honestly held view.
It will win me no Friends here.
I think Abbott wants this to fail.
I think SOME too many , of his supporters want it to fail.
In doing so, it is my view,they work with support by inaction, the very truly radical left, who in turn use these refugees for their own self interests.
Note I do not include the greens as a group in that radical call, but many of them live in that camp.
An are wrestle is under way, the world is about to look hard for answers to refugees , this maybe is it.
Be aware, in the refugee supporters camp, some care nothing for refugees every thing for trouble it lets them start.
Strange bed fellows Mr Abbott.

Poirot, my Friend you are better than that, far better.
Lexi is under terrorist attack, because she is often in support of things I say.
It is true, we all, often post without reading other posts.
Even refuse to read some peoples posts.
I read every one from my last one.
You should read those around you.
You, fellow posters I invite you all, to act fairly here, read those nasty, hurtful deliberately Sharp ones aimed at Lexi.
An arm over Cols shoulder can be seen then nasty inferences about me, bitter spiteful nasty, .
Reference is then made to posting under other names, by some one noted for it.
A posters former name is used in an unattractive bitter way.
I BEG! that we find a way around the insults, that we calm down just a little,all of us.
But most importantly, we understand every one has the right, OR DO THEY? to an opinion that is different in a FORUM KNOWN OLO ON LINE OPINION.
Without the spite hate smart A$%ed need to be considered a wit by true twits.
Poirot this I think is true, you as is true of Lexi do not like my posts often but you would never knowingly let An other use you, and it is taking place.
We,almost all of us,are better than that.

The object of the “asylum seeker” game is to get residency in an affluent Western country .And the people playing the game will exploit any means,
any loop-hole to attain their ends.

*The poor unaccompanied children* tactic is just one of many employed .Using children to gain citizenship has long been a tactic used in the US –and a soft touch has costs the US dearly:
“The Urban Institute estimates the cost of educating alien children in the nation’s seven states with the highest concentration of illegal aliens was $3.1 billion in 1993 (which, with the growth of their population to 1.3 million, would be more like $5 billion in 2000).”
http://www.14thamendment.us/birthright_citizenship/consequences.html

And the players are often not even “children”:
“Child refugees coming alone to Sweden aren’t always children. According to workers at several different refugee housing facilities, many people say that they are younger than they actually are in order to get better treatment and avoid deportation…Asha, a refugee from Somalia, told migration officials that she was 19 years old when she arrived. But her real age was 30”
http://www.hiiraan.com/news2/2010/mar/refugees_lie_about_age_to_avoid_deportation_but_at_a_price.aspx

And even when they are children, they are often far from the naïve waifs they are made out to be:
“A teenage asylum seeker, who won the support of thousands of people in Wales as he battled deportation, has admitted lying…His earlier claims that he had no family in Pakistan and feared his missing parents were dead won huge public sympathy.”
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2011/02/22/mp-makes-plea-but-liar-orphan-refugee-told-to-go-home-91466-28209875/

So, my suggest to people who have big hearts and absolutely must commit to a cause is that they, grow a bonsai, adopt an abandoned pet, or even befriend an unloved granny –anything, but steer clear of the asylum seeker scam – it’s not the noble cause it is made out to be.

Who's using me Belly?

Kerryanne,

Why am I not surprised that you've gravitated to the odious wisdom of Gentleman Col Rouge.....

Are you suggesting that we don't have a duty of care to children who arrive here seeking asylum?

Regarding your on-going stoush with other posters - I'm with Lexi in that I don't know what you're on about. You keep mentioning past interactions that we have no knowledge of.

Poirot

Apologies for appearing a bit harsh vis a vis Abbott/Nauru - I am well aware of your thoughts on the Libs. Given that some people can see no wrong with the Liberal party, I could not stop myself from posting.

I know you are aware, but some people need reminding:

Fact is boat refugees could more cheaply and humanely be assessed here in Australia than any of the Labor or Liberal current policies. But they have to be "seen to be tough". Bloody hell. Australia's dealing with boat refugees is one of our biggest shames, along with the separation of indigenous children from their families and also the Brits nasty contribution to this practice with their own children.

Seems no-one is concerned about children at all. Let alone adults, who did not choose in which country they were to be born - something too many smug well-fed Aussies forget.

We assess thousands more refugees who arrive by plane within Australia, why aren't the tiny percentage of boat refugees accorded the same?

And it makes better financial sense..... the entire debacle leaves me speechless.

Ammonite,

No problem, I understood the point you were making.

Like you say, it's all constructed in order to appear tough - a form of pork-barrelling, but instead of offering the electorate some form of largesse, they offer instead to mollify the innate insularity rife amongst Australians.

It's fascinating that these refugee "children" are apparently all 19-30 years old with an AK-47 in their back pockets - just goes to show, you learn something new everyday.

Poirot

Don't you know that refugee babies are trained with Uzi's while still breastfeeding?

And every boat person packs a gun rather than food.

To those who don't get above statements - I AM BEING IRONIC.

What really annoys me is that there is a solution, assess boat people in Australia. We won't stop the boats until the issues blighting these third world countries are solved. Surely by now, those in power would realise that peace does not materialise using a big stick.

< It's fascinating that these refugee "children" are apparently all 19-30 years old with an AK-47 in their back pockets - just goes to show, you learn something new everyday.>>

I am sure that even if they turned up carry AK-47’s , or Uzis, many advocates would find a way to excuse it –or leastways not see it

Just as they didn’t see them carry Molotov cocktails and iron bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xjyqh8mURk

and didn’t see ( or question why) these poor papers-less refugees had mobile phones:
http://www.news.com.au/national/asylum-seekers-call-for-help-on-mobiles/story-e6frfkvr-1225795364009

and speaking of AK-47’s & Uzi’s –I’ll bet this group of validated and settled “asylum seekers” had their hands on a few!
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/somalia-jihad-drive-probed/story-e6frg6of-1111115033793
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2009/s2693680.htm

And so it begins : http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/malaysiabound-deportees-on-hunger-strike-20110806-1ig17.html

When I say “it”, I mean the refugee industries latest academy award wining effort!

<< The first group of asylum seekers due to be deported to Malaysia have called for help and are starting a hunger strike, refugee advocates say>>
<< Refugee Action Coalition spokesman Ian Rintoul said advocates received a distress call from one of the asylum seekers on Friday
"The short call said only, `We are in a bad way; we need help. We are starting a hunger strike'," Mr Rintoul said on Friday.>>

SPQR,

Your absolutely correct and Consequences of misinterpreting go beyond that. Each post here combined with newspapers are read in Malaysia of course.
I shudder every time I see people writing offensive things about sending people back to Malaysia. Millions of people live there very happily.
Poirot,
Its not a war zone and frankly our relationships is being damaged. You know it was asked of Animals Australia and RSPCA National for ten years to work with farmers and Muslim people here in Australia and places like Indonesia , Malaysia etc *instead of attacking and insulting them. They couldn’t see the sense in that and results are (& will be) a huge step *backward for animal welfare in Australia and every Muslim country on earth.
This is no different. The consequences could be worse for the very people who need it most- the real refugees . We need to protect not only the children that come on the boats but all people.

The only way to do that is to send a strong message to boat people smugglers they are out of business. So yes I support protecting children as well as others Poirot, is the answer to you question.

I don’t want to see the same mistakes with the boat people. I hate to see Australians insulting our Malaysian neighbors especially at a time we should be working towards strong relationships. We have done a deal and I agree with King Hazza, that its an agreement to a immigration intake.I would have thought that would be to your policy liking tbo.

Poirot,
I won’t be drawn into anything to do with that person & Lexi knows she’s one of my favored posters btw.
As it happens you do know because you were the only one to be a bit fair when the bully got me banned for something I didn’t do.
Out of this entire forum only one person was a bit fair.

That person was you & I thanked you for it on another site rather than keep raves in here.

Ammonite- the short answer is I think most voters- in some way or another, are hostile specifically to what is apparently our current intake of refugees (read, Muslims- though it might just be the fundamentalist ones being projected onto all).
It might extend to other ethnicities who have been taken as problematic to integrate- but you get the idea.
It comes down to the need to protect our personal security from such individuals, or compromise it for them.
With that in mind, the objective of our refugee policy is simply to do what it takes to stop people like that coming into the country, and bringing extremist theocratic mindsets with them.

However,
It seems the blanket ban on boats is in because aside from the likely chance that everyone arriving as a refugee is a salafist fanatic, is that it's the least complicated situation- and doesn't have the negative PR that we are being discriminant about who we are letting in, among a few other things.

Of course, the better option would have been to have strict character criteria as a condition of entry, and advertise our country as what the bad demographics would want to avoid. And revert processing to either passing the character test and being processed in the community, or being denied entry entirely.
Most other Western countries do exactly that.

Now for the reason to leave their country due to instability- that is absolutely true. What makes many dubious is that they continue to travel through neighbouring and more distant countries with the intent to reach Australia or Europe- implying that safety concerns ceases once they left their own country, and ambition takes over for the rest of the journey (as Malaysia has demonstrated- other countries along the way do harbor refugees too).

King Hazza

Like I said on another thread I don't always agree with you. And this is one of those occasions.

As has been stated many times, by many others I will try again to clarify my points. And I do have first hand knowledge having worked in the housing sector of the state government.

1. No terrorist risks him/herself by getting on a boat - no terrorists have been identified among any of the boat refugees. Sure there are persons of dubious character and that's why we require an assessment program.

Which brings me to:

2. Much more cost effective AND less stressful for all involved, to assess boat people onshore. Nauru, Malayasia - waste of money and no accounting of the delay and grief these processes cause.

I know there is no magic bullet, but we can at least react with simple pragmatism rather than appealing to the very worst of the Australian psyche.

Poor Fellow My Country.

Sorry Poirot, but I did think you had fallen victim too. a look at that posters last 100 posts is worth while,
I stand by my descriptions
I am a fan of yours Lexi and Morgans, but unable to hide my views on issues that divide us, look in fact while we are fire and water Ammonite thinks mostly as I do.
This thread divides us but it is as I think.
IF we could poll every voter here now to day, how many do you think would say stop the boats.
Am I wrong in saying most.
And if I asked how many support the greens stand on refugees, would it be unkind to say less than 1 in every 5?
This morning ABC did an on air interview with a refugee advocate, how many of us, how many conservatives, Labor, people in the street would walk across the street to support such a protest group.
Last sadly, GY may care to comment, I have not asked him to look at or act on any post except spam, adds and such for around three years.
I am no BULLY but can not ignore a poster who turns on almost every one in the end.
This issue is painful, children women, wanting a better life.
My belief is not based on hate or dislike it is in my country's best interest I think.
I however see every thread come back to variations of the live export debate.
Surely we need not mention that in such as this one?
And being judged on my views,any of them, but animal welfare most is disturbing.

Belly,

I don't think you're a bully either.

I have no doubt that you are correct in your assumption that most Australians would happily position every asylum seeker on a giant eject button and fire them into the stratosphere.... but as Ammonite observes, it's indicative of the Australian psyche....good ol' Anglo-Saxon Christian morality 'nall that....

I find it telling that most of the Muslim refugees emanate from countries where we venture, hanging onto the coat-tails of the U.S. We destroy infrastructure (and profit from its rebuilding) and decimate social structures - and then we feign outrage when these people begin pouring out and head in our direction - same happened to the Vietnamese.

Ammonite,

I am not surprised at your big hearted approach by reading many of your posts. However the old saying goes again- Thee is nothing wrong with a person bar their intentions. Yours are good but not all mankind are alike.

Just to give you one example why thats a bad idea in several countries just like here they have their own corrupt little scams. You can pay ( it used to be $200 ) to be stamped as having had health checks. To allow people just walk into the community at large without making sure health and security checks are done isn't kind to anybody.

In my opinion the Government need to keep Mr Patel away from Christmas Island. What the boat people dont need is people stirring them up. Remember if they pass tests in Malaysia they will be back here in Australia to start new lives.

Lets not allow others to mess those opportunists up for them while sending the peoples smugglers clear messages.

If we were to remove policys and do what you say we would be flooded with ships and more people and kids would be drowned at sea.

If the King is working in that field he would know these people are in fact given preference of housing over our own Aussie people.

They wait 10 years + so surely these people can wait a few more months so they can be checked for health & security first.

That is the right way to do things& after all others are missing out who have been in a Q for many ears.

Again,, I hope your much better now.

Good Morning Everyone,

And what a beautiful morning it is.
And it's Saturday - Yay!
Nothing can go wrong today - right?

Back to the topic under discussion.
As I also stated previously -
this current policy is all about appearing to
be tough. And it seems that the government is going to go
through with their policy - no matter what the
objections are going to be. What the majority of people
think - nobody knows for sure - unless a Referendum is
held and that's not likely going to happen. At least
not yet.

This is a problem that's not going to go away anytime
soon.

Has anybody been watching the animal "Migration" series
on TV? It seems that even animals seek better living
conditions elsewhere.

Poirot,
Nobody has the right to demand what may be raised & not raised speaking on the Malaysian solution.( or other threads)

Telling me what I can & can’t raise is ignorance and rudeness & attempting to bully and control my comments. People with no knowledge & I won’t be bullied.

King Hazza

I feel sure if we had the PM & Tony Abbott on this forum the one thing they would both agree with is trade and tourism is very much connected to this deal.
I have sat at the table with several Malaysian Ministers & delegates over many years. So I have an idea of what offends them & “”their concerns.

Ammonite
Regarding the deal I say give it a go . Yes its expensive but let’s give the PM a go at stopping people smugglers.
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/australia-uses-youtube-to-deter-boatpeople/
They will be placed in a transit centre in Malaysia for up to 45 days where their refugee status will be processed by the UNHCR. They will then be relocated into local communities in Malaysia and given access to jobs, education and healthcare pending resettlement to their destination countries.
In exchange, 4,800 asylum seekers now in Malaysia and registered with the UN body will be re-settled in Australia if their refugee claims are approved.

I don’t think the average Aussie understands how important it is we give Malaysia a fair go too. If we keeping knocking this even before its tried and insulting them i can lead to another complete breakdown like we had years ago. It took ten years to fix that under the guidance of Dr Ameer Ali John Howards former advisor & the man I work with .I can assure you he would not agree Halal & live exports and the complete trade deals set ups had nothing to do with our exchange system & the new deal our PM has stuck.

Its "vital" we stop insulting these people and I cannot express that enough.

T/C

Kerryanne,

Show me where I instructed you what you may or not raise?

Talking of "bullies" - you might like to examine your own style.

At present you tend to approach posters and subjects like a driverless Sherman tank. You blast away in all directions and slide slip-shod across the terrain - and every now and then you end up in a ditch howling about the supposed ignorance and rudeness of your fellow posters.

This thread is very important one.
Please excuse me for moving it side ways,for only a little time.
Poirot IF we held a discussion on what the world could do for refugees and the worlds hungry my views would be pure Socialism.
Now, folks, please do not stand in front of KerryAnne insults they are meant for me.
Look at links in her posts to other sites, leading to praise for? me.
It has always been so, long ago exactly the same tactics and post style,.
I go, see the Iqbal Patel thread, from saint to sinner, from being crawled to then charged with non existent crimes.
It is currency, not just KA but others, I am not a paid troll.
Circumstances have forced me on the pension, years earlier than I planned.
I am not of the left, my words are mine, always.
I think in Numbers ,in votes in chances of my party winning elections.
But those chances are less than slim, we have not done as much wrong as charged, but we stick too hard to the wrong leader.
Boats will, if we let them kill my government.
Not stopping them will kill our country's unity, we are dividing our self on this issue and others.
Look first for impacts of actions or non actions do we Gamble on a ten year Abbott government to be in opposition with best policy's?

@ Piorot
<< I find it telling that most of the Muslim refugees emanate from countries where we venture, hanging onto the coat-tails of the U.S. We destroy infrastructure …yada yada yada >>

What is actually *most telling* are the stories that some people believe! The above is straight-out of Michael Moore's book of bedtime fables. Afghanistan has never had better medical services, educational opportunities or infrastructure than it does now, and any rebuilding was done at allied expense. But it is not likely that the current influx of Muslim "refugees" care much about the rebuilding of * their * country since most have lived for a decade or more in Pakistan (or Iran). Alongside millions of other Pashtun’s and Hazarra’s who’ve lived there for generations. And only thought to come to Australia when people smugglers or relations told them it was a land of milk and honey and loads of bleedin hearts.

@ Lexi,
<< It seems that even animals seek better living conditions elsewhere>>
Yes indeed. But I’ll bet when you were watching the migration the commentator did say: “ See that one with the big set of teeth and sharp claws, well, he’s actually a poor little lost lamb ”

@ Kerryanne,
<< I don’t think the average Aussie understands how important it is we give Malaysia a fair go too. If we keeping knocking this even before its tried and insulting them i can lead to another complete breakdown>>
Great point! It is telling that those who are wont to whine about “asylum seekers” being vilified are all too eager to vilify
a whole nation if it’ll means furthering their ends. And please ignore Piorot’s attempts to intimidate you.

Dear SPQR,

The animal migration series shown on television
was a fascinating documentary.
I'm sure that with your intelligence - you would
have enjoyed it very much had you watched it.

Ammonite- that is correct that intending terrorists would not even bother trying to risk the boat journey just to make an attack; however that does not mean that the people who might legitimately be fleeing, or legitimately want to live in Australia- aren't going to be without problems of their own. We've had plenty of hostile, unstable and fundamentalist people in the past- the Skafs, Hilali and Hizb ut Tahir members, along with the people harassing, threatening and assaulting people on Cronulla for the decade leading up to the riots- and looking at other Western societies, the rioters responding to the Muhamad Cartoons, and the people who had attempted to assassinate the cartoonists (and the man who murdered Theo Van Gogh) as well.

I personally feel that our obligation to assist refugees stop when they are in any way like these people, as they are only a danger to others.

So again- these should be quickly assessed first- and any sign that they may be like this would mean their assessment be in detention (and if confirmed, deported); and if they are not like this, will have their application assessed in the community.

"...Poirot's attempts to intimidate you".

If calling Kerryanne out on her self-styled status as a victim is what you're referring to SPQR, then perhaps you should take a closer look at her own antagonistic behaviour.
Every second person she debates on this forum she labels either a trouble maker and/or a rude ignorant bully.

Think it's time for a brief sojourn away from OLO for this poster - sometimes it's hard to resist reacting and getting into puerile arguments - I've got better things to do with my time.

I get no joy in saying this, but we, Australia, are spending great, huge in fact, amounts on detaining and processing boat refugees.
I would almost bet, we spend more than we give to starving Africans.
It has been said, by Poirot,that yes most of us want to stop the boats.
If this works we will, in months the only detention centers should be illegal migrants, and a few waiting flights to Malaysia.
How long will it be, honest opinions please,before cash strapped Europe does much the same.
And are we aware the latest drought and famine in Somalia third in 30 years, is not going to get the cash to stop a lot of deaths.
What next, unemployed and hungry all over Europe , even in America.
Can we help, should we share our last suppers, can the worlds population grow forever and some tell us we have to take forever endless suffering masses?
Will that one day lead to us suffering too?
Is reform change birth control of more value than endless welfare?

Dear Poirot,

Take a break by all means (I may join you).
However please come back as we need rational,
intelligent debaters like you - contributing to this
forum.

Dear Belly,

I think we're all concerned about the problem of
refugees. This is a complex issue and as I said
before - this is an ongoing problem that won't
disappear overnight. It's a pity that its been
so politicised. Fear mongering is not a worthy
campaign to partake in and achieves very little
that is constructive. But politicians use whatever
they feel will get them the top job. However, I
think they underestimate the Australian voters.

SPQR,

Yes I hear you & I dont know why but that rational lady Lexi speaks of flew for me on her very first post. That was because I think looking after our own before Africa ought to come first.
Lexi, you say you dont understand. You were there & saw it but never mind its all politics from now on. Now worries there. I am not with any. I find them shallow tbo.

However With the first boat arrival, the Malaysian solution gets its test of fire.I think we need to back our Prime Minister & give her a chance to sort the mess our Rudd left.

I have already expressed how utterly unhelpful running down Malaysia is. What would be far more helpful would be to get on a Malaysia chat line forum and make some friends and just chat. This is an expensive way to do this & its to be reviewed in a year-- Problem will be if after the elections & libs get in we will have huge ill feeling if we want to stop- ( if they dont withdraw first) we will have a mighty expensive legacy on our hands. O course by that time you will all be in here screaming to keep this policy if libs want to go back to the Howards solution- won you? Yup.

Now, if you want to help- what you could do is what I did years ago -( you say I dont care) lobby the government to allow you to find homes for single ladies& maybe one child to assist our elderly.Nice homes no waiting in detention & pick them up as they arrive. Write to Malaysian government to suggest this - because tbo ours is to slack to organize
a chook raffle imop.

Poirot's,

Just saw your earlier comment. No that was not directed at you. I was *explaining my position to you & looking at it myself i can see how you have taken it the wrong way. You were the only one to apologize when @ was sniveling and got me banned. However, your are a bit of a fire cracker & i respond to people as I am addressed. One thing I never do is stand by and watch somebody being persecuted or treated badly.

Lexi, you have seen that 1st hand. I will never see injustice done and be silenced for the sake of that persons supposed to be on my team. Its wrong & should be exposed as such. I think really we have all achieved something here today after all.
Guys-
There are so many things you guys can do to make the life's of refugees happier when they arrive. You can set up a thread right here and chat online before they come- work with government and greens contacts. Find out where the schools are and what stage kids are up to etc. Once they are cleared they wont come straight away.
Get to know them - before- How much nicer would that be for them are the children.
Your a very organized lady Lexi. Why dont you and some of the others here do something like that.
There are some good minds here going to waste a 4000 people could use that type of genuine care.

One thing: Somebody said- If they were T they would just come & attack- (wrong). Plenty of sleepers here. Has been for 30 years raised kids opened shops. Thats the sad part & why"we must be eternally vigilant - but with compassion.

We Australians are indeed weird as the book said.
And I love us as we are.
But we ask far too much from those who lead us, we expect perfection.
Forget what party, what leader, we who fall over and get up again, make mistakes and try again.
JUDGE our leaders much harsher than we even consider judging our selves.
We let every thing become a partisan issue, not humanity, not facts, we let our heart blind us.
I saw an insult aimed at folk who are concerned about Murdock Media here this morning.
Yet in part is is that, Media, all of it, talking heads giving THEIR OWN OPINION
Yes we ask too much we talk of politicians being? politicians! the very thing we put them there for and judge them on.
If we take the politics out of boat refugees my true Friend Lexi, what is left?
A politician who is of any use has to look at EVERY IMPACT of any possible action.
IF today right now,you and I formed the whole Australian government.
And we let our inner wishes rule our head, said bring them in now no detention, none.
Would we open the gates, would we serve our country's interests,are those interests first duty of a Polly.
Lexi, would we harsh has truth is, understand at the next election we would be thrown out on our ear?

All over this mornings world people are looking for a new home ,some just for enough food to stay alive for another day.
Such has been the nature of life and death for century's.
A clear headed look will see as our numbers grow the death toll rises, and even a small search will find proof food shortages around the world are about to explode.
World Financial difficulty's are not getting better, understanding theft takes far too much from every dollar given to feed those in need is cutting contributions.
Those who refuse to see the over all night mare, the truth we can not forever feed them all, while they breed increasing future victims without control are of no help.
Remember,even if they saved for years , these boat people are not the poorest of the poor, they are not starving.
We ARE giving new homes to ten times their numbers, but if your hope is we can save the world by sharing endlessly our planet,our place in it, with those who increase in numbers so very fast?
My answer next.

Such is the nature of humanity and some who post here I will be branded for my idea.
As a green, a lefty, by the truly blind, a fool and much more but here go,s.
I think this planet faces its biggest threat to human life it ever has, and that the United Nations is a Politically Correct waster of time/money/the air its inhabitants breath.
I think the building should be cleaned out.
Rip up its laws rules and constitutions.
Give it new leaders, why not current world Prime Ministers and President's, first task?
Remove all dictators by force if needed.
Have what we have in local government,administrators in place until stability returns.
World wide, every country birth control ,to stop the growth.
Feed the hungry keep some work protected in some country's to give every one a life.
No intention of dropping borders haveing one world government but it will take much more than love, something better than hate ,to fix this planet.

KerryAnne I speak only because some one must to you.
Poirot, not because she sided with me, she often opposes me, is upset with you.
Those comments and ones much like them have been leveled at you by very many, now and in the past.
KerryAnne near equal in numbers to the ones you launch at others.
It need not be so, you can change, but know this, just as my words show me as I am, the good the bad the ugly.
Yours show every detail about you.
Look back your self,at your growing friendship with Col the work you are putting in to rebuild a sand castle you constantly kick over.
I am not being nasty,I am a fool, I am trying yet again, not to talk to you but to help you.
Words spoken can drift away in the wind, written they exist forever.
Your future here is up to you,not me, all I ask is you understand the snide remarks followed by the verbal kiss on the cheek is wearing some.
I wish you well but no need to respond.

Dear Kerryanne,

A few clarifications:

1) The Prime Minister has made a tough decision and
she's prepared to take the responsibility for
the consequences of that decision to stop the
people smuggling trade into this country. Mr Joe
Hockey seems to have overlooked the fact that his
party kept children behind barbed wire for years
when he criticises the current government's attempt
to stop the boats. Whether this government succeeds
in their attempt - we shall have to wait and see.
At least this is a government that is attempting to
get things done. I wonder whether the Opposition will
support the Aged Care program that is about to be
announced - even the harshest critics have given it
the tick of approval - will Mr Abbott - when he returns
from Switzerland? Somehow I very much doubt it. It would
be a pleasant surprise if he did.

2) Thank You for your suggestions to me about how I
can help refugees. My family came to this country as
refugees from Norther Europe (I was born here), so I'M
very familiar with the problems that refugees face and what
they require. BTW: I do my job for a variety of people - in my
professional capacity on a daily basis.

Cheers.

A second boat has arrived in Australian waters bringing the total number of asylum seekers to arrive to over 100 in less than 2 weeks.

If as rumoured there is a disproportionate level of children that the smugglers are sending to put pressure on the government, the Malaysian Solution could be dead in the water.

SM,

According to this morning's "The Insiders" program,
the Prime Minster has made the decision and will take
the responsibility for its consequences. The people
smugglers will not be able to blackmail her, neither
will the rhetoric of Joe Hockey and others (who seems to have
forgotten the children behind barbed wire that his party
sustained for so many years). Dead in the water?
Not yet!

Dear Lexi,

Thanks for your efforts . On the PM I prefer her as a person .
I feel sorry for her because her own team are letting her down. I think she’s completely unaware.
Somebody isn’t keeping her informed . Howard knew just about every talk back show who was on about what & his staff were excellent.
The only other thing I have to say on the boat people issue is we need Australia staff- Not hired off shore security.
I also think whoever the company ( were) should be made to claim it via their insurances not the Australian public.
Of course it would not go well if one of those that were on the roof returned.
I am sorry the PM is not backing the Bill because it will be the end of her government .
Its simply a matter of numbers. How sad for her ( wrong advise again)
Its like any business Lexi you are only as good as your staff.

*My family came to this country as
refugees from Norther Europe (I was born here), so I'M
very familiar with the problems that refugees face and what
they require. BTW: I do my job for a variety of people - in my
professional capacity on a daily basis.*

Yes I recall reading that. Fascinating story you started to tell when i first joined.
You sound busy enough but i am sure you will pass the idea along.
Trust me they won’t think of it.

Its good you do what you can.

Have a nice evening.

PS I think her Malaysian solution will cost but *work.

They wont go over & above but what the do will be done well imo

Dear Lexi,

I spoke to soon sorry. I am afraid they have stopped the deportation after a high court judge hearing today. Your PM is not having much luck & sadly now it will be on for young and old.
The Australian public will be screaming about more costs on top of.

The ALP will be turfed I think & the Liberal will just put back what was there prior. No doubt you will hear it on the news.

Kerry

Lexi,

This government has more children in detention than the pacific solution ever had, and I am surprised that you are supporting the deportation of unaccompanied minors to fend for themselves in Malaysia.

With the arrival of the second boat, and now the injunction, I can see how the people smugglers' business model is broken.

It is difficult to make a moral judgment on how Australia deals with Asylum seekers.
Both Labour and the Liberals have different versions of cruelty in order to discourage people from moving here.
The Greens on the other hand think the numbers coming here are actually very small (which I agree with)and that we should just get over it and just let genuine refugees in.
The big problem with this is estimating just how many people would start coming to Australia. (This is a serious questions which the Greens seem to just ignore).
Has the Government done any research to estimate the likely influx of asylum seekers if the Greens policies were actually implemented?
It would be a big help for people who are still undecided about which way Australia should go.
My wild guess is that over a period of 10 to 20 years the numbers could build up to between 100,000 to 200,000 per year.
Is this scaremongering or is it a real possibility?
Will the Greens and lawyers wanting to move to much softer policies ever try to answer it?

SM,

So it's allright to place children behind barbed-wire
is it. It's all a question of numbers is it?
What formula does one use to justify that?

The Government has made a decision and is accepting
the consequences of their actions. To discourage
people from relying on people smugglers. And they're
refusing to be blackmailed by the question of the
children.

I'm sure that if the PM was to suddenly walk on water -
the Opposition would state something like, "See the
Prime Minister can't swim!"

You can't please some people no matter what you do.

>> I'm sure that if the PM was to suddenly walk on water -
the Opposition would state something like, "See the
Prime Minister can't swim!" <<

Funny but true.

Lexi I liked that post.
Now a few thoughts, John Howard stopped the boats,more Australians than not wanted him to, and still do.
He kept kids behind barbed wire, we do too, most Australians do not care.
It has helped the Conservatives , knowing Labor went in to government cloaked in that famous nude Kings dress, we are better than you,and saw more boats come.
Still clinging to the view we could crawl our way around the simple fact few or many, Australians have had a gutful of boat people some one acted.
This cruel self serving, yes in my view we took Malaysia for a ride too, system will work BUT.
While most Australians will be happy,a few unaware of the impacts see only poor kids wanting a future.
By now realists will know our next Prime Minister will be conservative.
And if lawyers/true left/bleeding hearts kill this system, they will stop the boats, bet on it.
And in truth they would not change a single thing if on gaining government the system has stopped the boats.
So apart from the left/radical/blind why are conservatives not hoping this works? you tell me.

Lexi,

You accuse me of being one eyed!!

While I agree that tough action is called for, the Howard government never sent unaccompanied children to a foreign country where their safety could not be guaranteed.

Secondly, in the 3 months since the Malaysian solution was announced, nearly 3x as many refugees have come by boat as the last 3 years of the Pacific solution.

At Nauru, at least they were safe and less than 50% ended up in Australia.

Yes Belly, the Australian Government (irrespective of whether it is a Liberal or Labor one) will stop the boats, just like it will put an end to war, create world peace, end famine, clean the environment, find magic endless fuel and locate Atlantis.

Can't wait.

SM,

By the way you need to keep up. The Malaysian Solution
has been stopped by the Courts. At least until this
afternoon. A legal injunction has been issued.
The Court has to make a decision this afternoon.
Watch the news.

My god, the phony outrage by people against whichever party their favorite one is against is too much for my sides to take.
"I supported the Liberal policy- but what Labor is doing is awful"
"No, Howard was cruel- but now Labor is showing the humane way it is done"

I am worried to say that the amount of serious posters on this thread focusing on the actual issue can be counted on one hand.

Ammonite I am not trying to be rude to you quite the opposite.
So please do not take this the wrong way.
My opinions are mine not the ALPs.
I here now predict a conservative white wash next federal election.
Soon after the then PM , it may not be Abbott but conservative for sure.
Will craft a Double Dissolution election, probably in the first six months of the Parliament, and win.
Win control of both houses, remember it was not long ago they held them.
Now Ammonite it matters not what you think or me, fact is AUSTRALIA thinks the Greens drive the ALP.
Right now Australia, love it or not, wants in numbers double then double again your party's vote an end to the boats.
Politics is not a raffle it is in the end not about right or wrong.
It is a maths thing.
About the numbers who want to vote for who.
Perceptions may not be right but they count.
My forecast is not going to change.
On the morning after Labor lands on its head in opposition these things put them there not boat people but failures and a perception we are dancing naked it the night around the greens morris dancers arm in arm.
Anger will not change our fate.

First Test: Government out for a duck.

Not at all.

Water off a duck's back.

The law's on their side.

But Kudos for trying.

Watch the news.
by Lexi,

Lexi,

The fact is the courts went off their brain at the fool who turned up without documents acting for the government. The court screamed the legal preparation was a mess & it was. Its the same old problem for alp over & over. They just dont have the class to know a good QC from a bad one. No I am not trying to insult its true.
I remember some barristers from trade hall & they were fun colorful but you would let them act for you. I know you dont want to hear this but the PM made a huge error to resume live exports. 75% want it stopped- there's your numbers. Now this boat thing- I feel sorry for her tbo.However, we need ALP out before 2 years. We are going broke. 135b a day we borrow. I knew it & i said oh no not ALP not now.
The cattleman are starting a no confidence rally - huge through AU with trucks. Your living in fairy land if you think one thing is ok. We need alp out we need Howard back.
I dont like him because of live exports but this country is in trouble. ALP have to go.

.

Chris Bowen "We expected legal challenges"

And in normal style did no preparation for it, what a shower.

Lexi,
This was the first test and the Govt is out for a duck.

They may do better in the second but I suspect that they are going to lose the series, they may score a few runs but their batting order is poor and although it may just be strategy to lead with poor batsmen (either sex) it's going to lead to an early dismissal.

Of course the other team may not be better as they have some players who have a tendency to take their bat and go home. Their bowling line-up is not impressive either as some of them don't seem to know where the wicket is.

Dear Is Mise,

It's still another two years until the next
election. The games not over yet.
Lets just wait and see what happens. As you
know things in politics can change in a flash.
Hitting a home-run may trump everything. And
in politics anything's possible.

In two years, at the end of Labors term it will not be this issue that brings them down.
And do not kill this plan yet.
Howard faced actions in the federal court too.
Government is on firm ground, it only started this plan, an extreme one, because no other would work, not now.
If remember, just what a Federal election is, *it is the public, based on the promises made for the next Parliament, those broken in the last and a host of things picking their votes direction*
Labor has lost.
Already, but remember this, most Australians want the boats stopped, will be happy if it works unlikely to vote on this issue.
Those who are unhappy, anyone see that mixed bag voting conservative?
However be warned it is true, the refugee advocates do drive voters to the right.
This we must under stand, those kids the Shadow Minister whimpers about, will be the same ones forced to turn around at sea under his policy's.
Look at both sides of this issue, but stop pretending the minority can open the doors.

Though I personally think a refugee "swap" is a stupid idea- I would definitely not join the crowds pretending to suddenly care about asylum seekers out of nothing more than animosity over the fact that its a Labor idea.

Much like all the commentators who went so far as to condemn the assassination of Bin Laden- using the same arguments they completely ignored when Iraq was invaded- simply out of sour grapes that Obama's democrat government did it instead of a Republican one.

Belly,

Very few boats were turned around, and those that were went to where they came from i.e. Indonesia. Where the parents of the children would have been.

The vast majority stayed in Australian run detention centres with adequate health and safety.

This is another stuff up in a litany of ALP blunders.

SM,

Your claim to -
"Adequate health and safety centres?"
Is strongly denied by -

Australian of the Year in 2010 - psychiatrist,
Dr Patrick McGorry. He stated - many were severely
mentally damaged. He described the centres as
"Factories for Mental Illness."

And these poor people were left in these centres
for years, and years, and years - behind barbed
wire.

<< And these poor people were left in these centres
for years, and years, and years - behind barbed
wire.>>

By that standard Lexi, everyone of the tens of thousands in our prison system, must –purely on account of their incarceration–be suffering severe mental illness!

Lexi,

Firstly McGorry, has a particular barrow to push, and secondly, the kids sent to Malaysia are likely to suffer far worse.

Here's something from someone that knows:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/jesuit-priest-argues-malaysia-solution-worse-option-than-howards-pacific-solution/story-fn59niix-1226111970896

Jesuit priest Frank Brennan argues Malaysia Solution worse option than Howard's Pacific Solution

"Father Brennan, an avowed critic of the Howard government's Pacific Solution, said the Coalition's alternative policy of processing asylum-seekers on Nauru is the more moral option. He said the Malaysia deal appeared to have been driven by a desire to hatch a policy "more ruthless" than Nauru."

Dear SPQR,

These people are refugees not criminals.
They are people who have been through a great deal
that we can't even begin to imagine.
People who would risk a dangerous sea journey to escape horrific
regimes and conditions seeking asylum - which they are entitled
to do. There's a big difference. You should be able to see that.
They have not committed any crimes or been tried for them in
a court of law. All they're asking for is that their cases be
heard and assessed. Criminals are a totally different issue.

Dear Shadow Minister,

What evidence do you have that McGorry had a barrow to push?
Apart from the fact that he's a qualified psychiatrist who's
able to make those judgements. Don't newspapers have barrows
to push as well. Don't all of us have a certain amount of bias?

As I've stated previously - this is a complex issue and no matter
what side of politics you're on - this problem will remain.
Refugees will continue to try to come to Australia as it is
a global problem. My preference would be to find an on shore
solution and process them quickly here in Australia. As
New Zealand and other seem to be able to do.
However the government has made this "tough" decision
and we'll see what happens.
At present the court has put a stop to it.
Whether the government
has the legal right to continue
is yet to be determined.

Lexi,

Please read the report:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.safecom.org.au/pdfs/zachary-steel-report.pdf&embedded=true&chrome=true

This also indicates that the asylum seekers are suffering mental health problems, but also ascribes this to their experiences prior to their detention. The main thrust is that these damaged people should not be detained, not that the detention is the prime cause of their distress.

Gillard now presides over a record number of asylum seekers in detention, and so is doing far more damage than Howard ever did.

Also please explain how your preferred solution of sending them to Malaysia is any better.

SM,

Kindly re-read my previous post.
We seem to be arguing in circles.
Which is pointless. I did not state
that the Malaysian solution is
"My" preferred solution. I stated
quite clearly that my preference
was to process these refugees on shore
in Australia as New Zealand manages to be
able to do. This is a governments decision
and as it is it has been currently stopped.
I also stated that these people has suffered
terribly prior to their detention. But
their detention also contributed greatly to
their mental problems as Dr McGorry confirmed.

Lexi,

Most of your comments seem to back the PM on this up to the hilt.

" As I stated earlier - no
matter who's the PM - the problems won't go
away. This is a tough stance by our PM - let's
see if it works."

So far Labor's immigration policy has hurt far more people than the pacific solution ever did.

New Zealand as far as I recall does not get any boats, and has a quota for refugees in the order of 700 p.a. so is hardly a good comparison.

This is quite amusing;
You can tell who takes this issue seriously and who is just sticking to their favorite party;
-The people whose opinion about the plight of refugees has remained largely the same over the past decade- or at least, hasn't magically changed in 2007.
-The people who didn't of course are just a bunch of muppets who can't think of a world outside the simple ideal that their favorite party can do no wrong, and the opposition is the devil itself.

That aside, what isn't so amusing is how some people insinuate that just because someone goes through hardships, that automatically makes them a nice, deserving person to impose upon others.
The Taliban fighters were forced to live in caves because of the coalition forces- does that suddenly make them nice? No.
If a rabid tribal fundamentalist took the boat journey- they would still be a rabid, tribal fundamentalist.

As such- we should check who we are actually letting in- and take pity and give support to people that actually ARE decent- and deport those that are not.

SM,

How am I backing the PM to the hilt?
I said that my preference was to process
these people onshore in Australia.
And if you make sweeping statements about
how the Pacific Solution was superior to
the government's current policy - you have
to provide evidence for that. Your say so
is simply your support of the Liberal Party
to the hilt. The PM's current policy has not
even taken effect yet - so how can you make
judgements on it this early?

Lexi
1) The issue wasn’t whether or not they were criminals. It was whether it was consistent /realistic for advocates to maintain that relatively short periods of detention, with full access to sporting, educational and entertainment facilities and the latest communication systems (including the internet and mobile phones).Here’s a picture of one such “hellhole” : http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/asylum-seekers-luxury-rewards/story-e6frg13u-1226043768220 .Could produce high rates of mental illness in “Asylum seekers”. While persons who had spent longer under detention in our prison system , with in many cases far fewer prospects, had --judging by the advocates total lack of protests for the latter –emerged unscathed.

2)However since you raise the issue of criminality. It is apparent to anyone –other than a diehard bleeding heart. That if the special immunity that “asylum seekers’ seem to enjoy. Which has allowed them to get away with anything short of murder, was removed, and the same standards were applied to them which regularly apply to anyone else who attacks someone with iron bar or burns commonwealth property. Many of the “asylum seekers’ might well be behind bars as common criminals.

Dear SPQR,

From what I recall - those who broke any of our laws
such as rioting, burning buildings, et cetera -
while waiting to be assessed - were immediately
disqualified from being accepted into this country.
A refugee's good character was one of the criteria of
assessment and for being accepted.
The Minister of Immigration made that
quite clear at the time.

Lexi,

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/nauru-lesser-evil-than-malaysia-deal-says-father-frank-brennan/story-e6frf7jx-1226112194561

"HUMAN rights intellectual and lawyer Father Frank Brennan says the Nauru solution could be considered a lesser moral evil than the asylum-seeker swap deal with Malaysia."

I suppose he is a coalition supporter too!

As for those that damaged building at Xmas island, I don't recall any of them being excluded.

Lexi,
<< those who broke any of our laws … were immediately disqualified…The Minister of Immigration made that quite clear at the time>>

As we are seeing, the current govt has promised lot of things which it cannot deliver on – I’ll believe it when I see it

PS: We’re still WAITING on these prosecutions (see my post of Monday, 21 March 2011 5:29:49 AM) here : http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4359#110561

Gentlemen,

I'm bowing out of this debate.
I've expressed my opinion for what
it's worth. As I stated earlier - this
is a complex problem - one that should
not be politicised. Hopefully it will
be resolved under the right leadership
sometime in the future or perhaps by
both parties working on the problem together
to reach a satisfactory solution, acceptable
to all. Now that would be something.
See you on other threads.

Lexi,

It was resolved under the right leadership. Labor just unresolved it.

With the 3rd boat in less than 2 weeks, they have 200 asylum seekers or 1/4 of the 4 year quota to send to Malaysia. In fact since they announced the arrangement 3 months ago, they have had nearly 800 asylum seeker come by boat. This is just another case of Labor pssng the taxpayer's money away.

Chris Bowen, the Malaysians saw you coming. There's one born every minute.

SM,

Do you realize that we're arguing over a piddly
amount of refugees when compared to the hundreds
of thousands that flock to Europe and much more
populous and poorer countries take them in.
Something's wrong with our mindset I'd say.

Lexi,

And it was only a piddling number of asylum seekers that drowned on Xmas Island. Europe has just had a refugee boat sink with hundreds lost, and loses hundreds more a year.

SM,

Tell us something we don't know.
But how many numbers do they take.
Pay attention - that was the point
being made.

Lexi,

So the number that dies is irrelevant to you?

Europe has many more illegal immigrants, many more deaths, and huge immigrant ghettos, with huge race problems and riots.

What is your point again?

Latest News:

With a 4th boat and now about 266 asylum seekers in the 2 weeks since the signing of the Malaysian solution.

At this rate the "solution" will be dead in the water by mid September.

You know, what I don't get is, that someone posts a comment online under an anonymous alias- yet STILL feels they need to feed everyone a politically correct spin on an issue to avoid people calling them names.

For example- I can admit that my entire problem with all areas of asylum and immigration is the risk of receiving people that are mentally unbalanced, religious fanatics, and generally unlikely to integrate and become anti-social when allowed in.
It is a perfectly legitimate concern, and I don't need to pretend I'm only harboring moral outrage at 'que jumping', 'leaky boats', people smugglers getting paid by refugees for a ferry service, etc.

And some of you wonder why Labor introduced the Malaysian solution in the first place;
Because they LISTEN to what the people want, but the people were too frightened to say what they actually wanted thinking it taboo, and fed them the same rubbish we keep hearing here- and so Labor acts on the supposed desire to merely 'look tough' and to target the 'people smugglers' from 'risking refugees', and we got this policy.

And you people have nobody to blame but yourselves for pussyfooting around the issue and trying to spin it, instead of saying what you wanted them to do.