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The Forum > General Discussion > Somalia Buries Its Dead From Starvation.

Somalia Buries Its Dead From Starvation.

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I came across this website on the web recently:

http://www.newstimeafrica.com/archives/21558

It states, "3.7 million are on the brink of starvation...
Somalia buries its dead from starvation and millions more
in Djibouti, Ethiopia, Kenya and Uganda have been struck
by the worst drought in the region for decades.
Many in Somalia are fleeing to neighbouring Kenya and
Ethiopia. Up to 100,000 have arrived in Mogadishu in the
past two months..."

I can't help wondering what is going on in this world when
people are starving and yet all over the world hundreds of
thousands of scientists and engineers devote their skills
to planning new and
more efficient ways for humans to kill one another,
millions of workers labour to manufacture instruments
of death and tens of millions of soldiers train for combat -
many actually go to war, From a moral and even an economic
point of view, this vast investment of human ingenuity and energy
seems a tragic waste. And looming over all these military
preparations and conuterpreparations is humanity's ultimate
threat, the unleashing of full-scale nuclear war.

Why can't we find ways to reverse this process and divert our
unprecedented energy and resources to the real problems that face
us, including poverty,, disease, overpopulation, injustice,
oppression, and the devastation of our natural environment.
Instead of destroying why don't we enhance the life on the planet?
People starving, children dieing - while we invest so much money in
fighting wars? It doesn't make sense.

What do others think?
Posted by Lexi, Friday, 29 July 2011 12:59:41 PM
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Two subjects here this one and the Norway one bring to me so much pain,
I have not yet posted in the Norway one,but I have very nearly cried openly at the pain.
Lexi this horror hurts so very much.
Another thread has told about it, well I thought.
Yours focuses on answers it has great Merritt.
A man just one, interviewed on TV, said I have been given a tent by some group my 12 children and I could have died but we made it.
Remember food aid, I do, then again just a decade after, me too.
Now again, and terrorists will not let us in lawlessness rules no one under stands birth control.
I may well be an awful bloke, both crying then saying it is imposable to save them all, or to change anything.
Unless we impose rule of law, stop making people rich with our donations, teach birth control .
Lexi in the end, in your lifetime ,this is the very start of mass starvation mass deaths and we can not stop it.
Unless we push some country's out of the dark ages into the 21st century,and I do not think we want to in a time the world stands close to recession. true depression.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 30 July 2011 6:47:50 AM
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Yes these are terrible situations but as per usual it's us, the masses who fail to act. We're the only ones who can bring about change but we don't. Why don't we ? Because we feel much cosier by pussyfooting rather than by being cruel to be kind.
We listen to experts rather than people who know and we employ people at immoral cost to consult with these experts rather than engage people who not only want to help but actually can help. We send money rather than implements for these poor to help themselves. We help people who don't help themselves yet we put up barriers for people who want to help themselves. Many of these volunteers aren't volunteers at all, they're people who simply use this to get free travel & then demand recognition afterwards.
In short we're short of integrity & genuine good will. Just look at the many religions ? Do we see them helping the poor in those countries ? No, it's much easier to bring many refugees to other countries & de-stabilise them then sort out the dilemma at the source. Then, when someone has had a gut full of this stupidity & does something terrible then he is a madman.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 30 July 2011 7:56:21 AM
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individual,

You talk from ignorance.
Of course, technical aid is given to communities from aid. Wells are dug, children are educated, small scale farming and husbandry are taught, community members are educated about disease and family planning.

Many aid organisations concentrate on a relatively small area and assist villagers to become self supporting - at the same time children are educated in school. The child I sponsor in Africa is required to learn three languages - her local dialect, the national language and English. I receive detailed reports of the progress of development within her village and her own development.

I'm sure there are many areas where aid organisations don't get it right, but you are saying that village infrastructure is not attended to - and I am telling you that it is a priority and is seen as the most basic building block for self support for these people.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 30 July 2011 8:22:02 AM
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everybody know and watch the news about Somalia, but what do you do for it??
Posted by MerryJones, Saturday, 30 July 2011 8:27:16 AM
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Poirot,
I live & work in an area where people receive so much support that it's literally to their detriment.
The many aid organisations in other parts of the world aren't as successful as you imply.
There are more starving people now than there were before the proliferation of aid agencies.
Most of the major benefactors of aid organisations have been corrupt regimes & aid agency directors. Please show some integrity & don't say this isn't true.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 30 July 2011 9:07:56 AM
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im reluctant to post in no win situations
lest we forget..the somalie fishermen..were outfished by big multinational stealing their fish...then they turned to piracy
[bying arms to survive..but arms has the karmic payback]

next we have things like well building
allowing people to be shunted to the never never
then the well dries up...instead of digging a deeper well
the equipment needed to dig it has moved on

we hear of why dont religeon help
well then we hear why are they bible bashing
next we get to the stage where we need to appoint some 'authority'
to democritize..

then come in miners digging for resources..poluting waterways..and corrupting poluting their way to corrupting officials...and moving on the locals

so whats the solution
give us money..[knowing that only cents in the dollar get to where its intended to go]..and so we get filled with guilt blame and shame]

so why dont we give them birth control
why dont we go in with innoculations
why dont we do this..or talk about doing that

in the end we talked plenty..but did little..
and this changed not much

do we feel helpless

yes
we are meant to
cause it gets our minds off the current news cycle

once it gets out of the news and we move on to the next item..to give us continual collective hopelessness..[cch]..while the rich get ritcher..and the poor get taxed back into our propper place

how do we fix it
appoint omnipotant dictraiters
tell them to fix it..if they dont fix it..they loose everything

start with the richest of the rich..right at the top of the list
tell them fix this...'or else'..loose your wealthy privledges
and your wealth

next problem..get the next ritchest person
tell them fix this..or loose your wealth

wealth must be seen
as having burdens as well as obligations
fix it or go to the bottom of the barrel

radical...yes i agree
but the cure apparently is cash money
so make the moneyed elites fix it now

or else..!
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 30 July 2011 9:10:17 AM
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individual,

You are comparing two radically different situations.

Are you comparing infrastructure, agricultural and educational aid in a third world African country to the plight of indigenous people in an advanced industrial nation like Australia?

In any case, I wasn't downplaying the significance of overpopulation, corruption and events such as famine. These countries have huge problems with overpopulation...but what is the answer? You decry aid and generalise (where is your integrity?) I was pointing out that your sweeping assumption that no technical aid was implemented was wrong.

I get a bit weary of the Princes peering out of the palace windows pontificating on the parlous state of humanity while simultaneously gobbling up all the goodies of the world...shaking their heads and fingers while indulging in gluttony. It's the West's standard hypocrisy.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 30 July 2011 9:30:34 AM
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we all hold a self image of ourselves
but we must be noting things like this topic

..re corperate social responsability..

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12398&page=0

from this article
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12398

that suggests we read this
http://web-docs.stern.nyu.edu/old_web/economics/docs/workingpapers/2011/Altman%206-13-11.pdf

[ok i admit i havnt read it]
but see the parrable of the good steward
where those who succeded were given more...to fix[by service]

if we have a muslim billionare
then send him[or her]..into the land
telling him his honour and wealth depends on fixing this

we hear that some corperations have bigger gdp than many countries
well we need to fix a problem..why not let the biggest fix it

and the succes of it..will be in the health wellbeing freedom and sustainability of their charged trust...the lands resources and its flora/fauna..

soon the current system will fail
and a new way will be sought

if jesus came here today
he would group together..those who done the succes thing
and they would be given more to be done...clearly its needs doing

so lets say the prophets are waiting
for us to fix it

if we dont
we insult our own heavenly messengers
cursing our own acestors..and our own yet unborn

[CHOOSE to..cast ourselves out of the heavenly rewards
of a life lived..for others..and the eventual words..'well done']

welcome home
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 30 July 2011 9:32:24 AM
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UOG,
One of the questions we need to ask & answer ourselves re aid is that how much more suffering has aid brought about ? More babies staying alive for longer, desperation merely being prolonged instead of being prevented, depressive regimes are given more time to inflict more suffering & so the list goes on. If the rest of the world really wants to help then in my view there is no other alternative than birth control. Ask yourself, what's better, two fed babies or six starving ones ?
then consider the result. Fewer people more food. Less misery more content. End result a better world.
I don't know about others but to me it's a no brainer.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 30 July 2011 9:35:46 AM
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individual,

Your 100% correct and this is the reason i do not contribute to most of these types of threads. I asked on another thread but nobody answered me- what was the name of the Australian PM yonks ago that spoke out about giving aid.

He was at the time a very popular PM who landed in a bit of hot water by some of his faithfuls when saying Australia should not give aid to Indonesia.

It sparked a huge debate way back then. My Mother used to speak about his wisdom and tell me a great deal about what he predicted long term.

He said we shouldnt interfere with nature and Australia would be very sorry one day if they didnt see the long term results of giving aid.

Nobody likes to see people starve but this feel good lobbying for more aid only brings more and more suffering.

Give them birth control and if they dont want it walk away because we can not help those who refuse to help themselves.
Posted by Kerryanne, Saturday, 30 July 2011 9:56:58 AM
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Kerryanne,

You're idea of "not interfering with nature" is remarkable in its denial of the West's colonial and now globalised interference in the third world. Many of the countries now treading water were relieved of their self-determination and self-sufficiency at the hands of the "benevolent" West - benevolent to itself, that is.

It continues today under the auspices of the IMF and the World Bank in cahoots with whichever corrupt regime is in power - it's a "partnership".

I'd like to think that international aid wasn't required - and I have my own misgivings at the level of interference in indigenous culture throughout the world. But let's not deny the West's responsibility in helping itself to these countries and the disruption that has, and continues to ensue.

One thing about the West is it's very adept at "helping itself" to whatever it thinks it can get.

http://globalenvision.org/library/23/1524
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 30 July 2011 10:20:57 AM
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I realize that this is a complicated situation
and some very valid points have been raised.
However, to do nothing is not the answer,
in my opinion. I question the trillions
being spent on war - and the
killing of human beings - when as I stated in
my opening post, if
those resources and that energy was diverted -
we could well wipe out
poverty on this planet.
I remember Derryn Hinch years ago -
questioning the money that was spent in aid
to these poor nations - and he stated that
for every dollar that we send - they receive
less than half of that amount
(I forget the exact sum he mentioned).
However, if we didn't send that dollar
they would get nothing at all.
Certainly - educate them,
certainly teach them - how to survive - but
to ignore starving children -
I'm sorry I for one cannot simply walk
away. And yes, I support World Vision (
as well as Doctors Without Borders).
I've been thinking about supporting a child in Africa -
and it may not be much - but I do intend to do it.

There's also another reason that I raised
the issue of the money we
spend on wars. I came across this website:

http://newmatilda.com/2011/07/29/hidden-cost-war
The Hidden Cost Of War by Terry Friel, 29 July 2011.

It's something you all should read.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 30 July 2011 10:25:35 AM
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plight of indigenous people in an advanced industrial nation like Australia?
Poirot,
the above is a blatant example that throwing money at a people is not working.

below for your info.

Plight; definition
an unpleasant condition, especially a serious, sad or difficult one
the plight of the poor/homeless
Few of us can be unmoved by the plight of the Romanian orphans.
(Definition of plight noun from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary
Posted by individual, Saturday, 30 July 2011 12:00:41 PM
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individual,

I'm very pleased that you are an "advanced" learner.

Your point was?.........
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 30 July 2011 12:49:02 PM
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Your point was?....
Poirot,
my point.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 30 July 2011 12:53:43 PM
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Lexi , as I have been eating a meal or when I rolled into my bed my mind threw vision of the starving millions in the Horn, at which point I gave thanks, and felt a helpless guilt simultaneously.

In a nutshell:

0-5% of the population own 40% of the worlds assets,
8% of the population own 80% of the world’s assets,
Yet the funds for humanitarian and beneficial projects are funded from you and I, the billions that own bugger all. You ask why we can stand on the moon but not build infrastructure to sustain the people given the technology and resources available in this modern world. I ask where is the UN? They are in the business of wealth distribution and equality, yet they follow a program that on the whole delivers some fish but does not teach them how to fish.

the is UN good at putting band aids on but not disaster proofing the future for these second and third world nations? The reason is to be found with the 0-5% that own nearly half the worlds assets and their foul army of leaches that jointly own 80% of all there is on this globe of dust. They want human attrition for their future survival and the survival of those who were born or associated with their gene pool. These handful of people with the ultimate wealth and power are only threatened by one thing,… us, and our draw on THEIR resources, and you can be sure that they THINK in these terms. People power is gone it is about technology and the control of it, we control nothing, but the awareness of "something rotten in Denmark" is spreading in the first world, and conspiracy is looking like fact.

Your heritage gives you an understanding of totalitarians, this lot governing us now are puppets of the 0-5% that OWN, but they do not see it. They have been working towards helping the downtrodden of the world for the past 60 years and the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, what does that suggest?
Posted by sonofgloin, Saturday, 30 July 2011 12:54:31 PM
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Poirot,

No No- read it again. It wasn't my idea. I asked if anybody recalled the name of our Australian PM who said it?

It goes way back ad long before what you raised was put into place.

Love the humor btw:)

Lexi, You will get no arguments from me about the world bank. They are imop he most evil corrupt-dont even start me on them.

Hinch said 30 cents in the $ but probably less now. If you really want to send food send food clothes etc in containers.S dont forget to pop some birth control in.

DONT send money.

Mind you we would have to have volunteers to get it out because the Church organizations will walk away if there is no big buck in it for them anymore.No wonder they dont want birth control- endless business out of starving people. If you want the facts I have just given them to you.

If there are enough serious people you can get goods to them. There are also people making huge $ out of sending second hand clothes in containers. We donate - they sell.

Pretty crook the world we live in. You will require at least one high profile person onboard your project otherwise you wont get your containers out through AQIS on into which ever ports your shipping to.

Cheers young Lexi always a pleasure
Posted by Kerryanne, Saturday, 30 July 2011 1:08:11 PM
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I can see that I'm a bit out of my depth here.
So much suffering and not really being sure about
what to do, springs to mind. As SOG stated - the
guilt is overwhelming.
However Thanks for all of your ideas and inputs.
Anyway, I'm thinking about sponsoring some farm
animals:

http://www.farmafricapresents.org.uk/buy/item/2

And -

http://www.sendacow.org.uk/donate

The sites seem reputable - I might look a bit further though
just to be sure.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 30 July 2011 1:20:22 PM
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not really being sure about
what to do, springs to mind.
Lexi,
You can't do anything about the rest of the world but you can help by changing the path Australia is on presently. Are you really willin
Posted by individual, Saturday, 30 July 2011 1:33:08 PM
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Dear Individual,

Your suggestions would be helpful.
However, the situation in Africa is in crisis
and perhaps we can all do a little something?
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 30 July 2011 2:39:39 PM
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Hello Lexi,
I too am gutted by the sight of these poor people and their babies, usually a strong character the sight of it all brought forth a dreadful bout of crying., unfortunately, we saw vision of mothers having to leave their babies on the street, because they (the mothers) didn't have the strength to carry them any more.
I really do believe that some contraceptive education should be carried out, it is so unfair on the children and subsequently the parents, when they can no longer fill their offsprings stomaches.
So very, very sad.
NSB
Posted by Noisy Scrub Bird, Saturday, 30 July 2011 3:29:13 PM
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https://www.sendacow.org.uk/grow-an-african-farm

Lexi

The UN and others so called feed @@ programe has created an even bigger problem for animal welfare and i am horrified by the thought!

The other thing is vegetable and crop farming is far more of a help because its long term yields more and teachers them an ongoing skill to feed a family for life.

There is little being done and thats where it could make a big difference. Again however sending money? What about you check out the plants and the areas and we send containers of something that will pass quarantine & lobby getUp for volunteers to teach them + takes clothes .

cheers
Posted by Kerryanne, Saturday, 30 July 2011 3:48:23 PM
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Dear Kerryanne,

I am having second thoughts about sending animals.
However, the sites do cover supporting farming -
so you're right that is a better option that I will
look into.

Dear Noisy,

Your suggestion of family planning - is something that
definitely needs to be addressed. It results in such tragic
outcomes - and the futility of it all is hard to comprehend.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 30 July 2011 4:02:16 PM
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Lexi,
I agree with your sentiments, but there are a lot more items you might have included in your list. Fat westerners living in mansions, for instance, and organ transplants while people die of dirty water and starvation. What about the millions in the beauty and fashion industry too? And on and on it goes.
I agree with All too, that welfare, its extent, in rich Western countries is detrimental to the recipients. But it's horses for courses. So long as we have the spectacle of the filthy rich, "poverty", the counterpoint, has to be commensurate to maintain order. It's the price the wealthy have to pay. You'd think it was a pound of flesh!
Posted by Squeers, Saturday, 30 July 2011 5:53:57 PM
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If the NWO has its'way millions more will suffer a similar fate.
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 30 July 2011 6:22:50 PM
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Squeers,
many times I have been ridiculed for suggesting that instead of wasting hundreds of thousands of Dollars on TV shows featuring some indisciplined obese slob losing fat, we should send them to those countries to lose weight.
A lot cheaper for us taxpayers & less boring idiotic TV. Even just working on a cattle station for a year in a National Service situation would sort out many obese.
I think these starving communities should be asked if they would accept birth control & if yes, we could send in equipment & personnel to help but we should not do anything that they can do. I guarantee that far less suffering would be achieved within a couple of years.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 30 July 2011 6:34:52 PM
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I doubt many people in Somalia will be thinking about contraception at a time when the basics of living are so scarce. Their religious beliefs (mostly Muslim I believe) aren't going to change anytime soon.

I am all for food drops, and not sending money that can be taken by corrupt officials or militants, but it would be a bottomless pit of giving unless there are ongoing ways provided for them to eventually feed themselves.

To my mind, we should be going to war against the Somali militants/rebels and at least get the country safely open for more aid that can be distributed by us rather than corrupt officials.
Posted by suzeonline, Saturday, 30 July 2011 6:39:45 PM
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Dear Squeers,

My concern at present is with the worst famine to hit
Africa in 60 years. The need for help is dire. There is
no water - the drought is having a devastating effect,
leaving pastures barren, water resources dry, and livestock
starving.
People are starving and dieing. They need immediate
help. UNICEF is organising a campaign of immediate
assistance. If you're interested you can look up the
following:

http://www.unicef.org.au/Donate/One-off-Donation/
East African Emergency Appeal.

Or you can call - 1300-884-233 for more infromation.

Dear Individual,

UNICEF and other concerned organisations are doing all
that they can to help this terrible situation.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 30 July 2011 6:48:30 PM
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Dear Suze,

Some help is getting through - we've watched it
on film. Food is being given out, as is water.
However it's not clear how much of it
is getting through - clearly its not enough to feed
the many thousands needing help. You've made an excellent point
that pressure should also be applied on the corrupt government
and officials. Still, as a journalist commented - "If
we give - some of it will get through. If we don't
give - people will die!"
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 30 July 2011 6:58:06 PM
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Suze,
The last time we (U.S.) "went to war" with Somalia, the press got there before the soldiers - they filmed them landing on the beaches and coming ashore.......seems it was more of a stunt than anything.

Kerryanne,

I take your point that it wasn't your idea, yet you seem to agree with his sentiments. This "wise" Prime Minister conveniently ignored all the West's voracious acts of barbarity and destabilisation inherent in colonialisation. It seems that what the West managed to enact was nothing but "interfering with nature" What a load of righteous paternalistic drivel that he then suggested that we wipe our hands of the situation we brought about.

individual,

Obesity and sloth are endemic in Western society - haven't you noticed that most of the population are encouraged to sit on their arses while being ferried about their business, or for the purposes of passively absorbing whatever is on TV? Too much food and not enough movement, but apparently it's a good recipe for economic growth - "because we're worth it".
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 30 July 2011 7:03:46 PM
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Lexi
Dear Lexi thanks a relief thank you.

Squeers
I see no reason why people who have worked their bums off to provide a good life for their family’s should feel guilty. There is another prospective your over looking. What about the Muslims helping their own.
Just for a god dam change. The Prime Minister I was told warned us of interfering with the balance of nature. You do realise these people are taught to hate us don’t you Squeers.
Now that doesn’t mean its their fault and we shouldn’t help but
One day the children you save might be the ones to slaughter your own FACT: life

http://makepakistanbetter.com/why_how_what_forum_full.asp?ArticleID=14585&GroupID=22&Group_title=My%20Voice

In the oil rich Gulf, blessed with abundant wealth, where regimes spend billions of dollars in buying weapons, helping weapons industry in the West to flourish, only Kuwait has been dispatching plane loads of food and medicine. Saudi Arabia invested $60 billion on purchasing weapons from West can save these unfortunate Somalis only by giving a billion dollar. However, so far, there were no signs of such human kindness.

Where are the billionaire princes and sheikhs who have turned to West to hide their wealth? On the whole the response of the Muslim world is absolute disgrace. Wealth made them blind to their religious obligations.

individual, I disagree – its education & normally its the poorest that are overweight.

Lexi suzeonline probably has the best idea IF? Its thought its wise.- I am having second thoughts about tramping over more Muslim soil myself tbo

Ok If it were me I would find a trusted Muslim Leader in Australia to get containers of ABC in + a few volunteers but no money

I will like you Lexi go for the crop programme. If suzeonline is whom i think she’s good at research. If anybody ca research anything – she can.Work together & look for a crop that grows in dry climate.
Lexi you have a big heart but- hassle to adopt some kids – but you can’t save the world.T/C
Posted by Kerryanne, Saturday, 30 July 2011 7:33:41 PM
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I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty. I'm alluding to the fact that we live in a globalised world of our own economic making, in the modern area attributable to colonialism and subsequent inequitous interconnectedness. Western wealth is drawn from all corners of the globe, and poverty and famine are just as attributable to these global influences as the wealth. Capitalism is often credited with pulling millions out of poverty, but this is misleading. Millions are not lifted out of poverty; the millions are propagated by their history and modern trade links with the west, and lulled into a false sense of security, hence they breed. If African nations had remained isolated then people would still die during famine, but it's likely without western interference they would be much better adjusted to sustain and weather such visitations. The west invoked the millions and the famines.

And Kerryanne, even if in a few cases the wealthy have "worked their bums off", rather than being merely lucky bastards, hard work is relative and I doubt it compares with those who work their bums off in poor countries for bare survival. In any case, there is simply no justification for the kinds of rewards I alluded to above. No one needs to live in a mansion or enjoy any of the other gross totems of a "successful" life--such that are indulged without a pang in this country while crocodile tears are shed over the poor Africans.
We all have to learn to live sustainably; the starving and unsustainable millions elsewhere are simply the obverse of obscene glut in countries like Australia. It's a global world that we profit from, and at the expense of those who drew the short straw. This is simply a fact.
Posted by Squeers, Saturday, 30 July 2011 10:29:49 PM
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Squires,
You make no mention of the *filthy rich Muslim nations with their billions in oil turning their back on their own people fact::
Is there any particular reason for the obvious question not to be addressed?
I will say it again- Filthy rich Muslims Nations drowning in billions & trillions ignoring their own.

The average Australian is struggling to survive bogged down with ever rises prices and mortgages. fact:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2006-11-13/survey-shows-sydney-families-struggling-with/1309284

Salvation Army struggles as demand grows : fact

Our conservative independent surveys show that real unemployment * is 19% ¹; that 54% ² of Aussies barely survive on under $15,000 per year; and that 68% ³ have incomes under $29,000. Since the mid 70s one million Aussies were forced to leave rural and regional Australia and move to cities..fact:

Australia is a victim of global trading fact:
Australia is the only country in the world to comply significantly with the World Trade Organization demand that we reduce, and finally, remove all tariffs. Others, including the US, have actually increased their overall level of tariffs.fact:

http://www.oziz4oziz.com/restoring-prosperity---details.html
This country is heading for a recession such as w have never seen- In time we will end up like another third world country if we don’t stop trying to save the world and put our own country first fact:

Aussies are the most giving people on earth and others demand more.

You want me to sell my house my husband and I worked hard for all our lives and put our six children in a humble shack to give while the Muslims with their trillions ignore their own?

You want me to leave my indoor pool for a tent?

Yep thats what you guys are like which what i was trying to warn sweet Lexi about.

I wont say thanks

Will will decide who we help if and when.Personally I am very aware over the over population in the world so I dont have 4 kids or a husband but i will keep my indoor pool all the same thanks!Q

salaam!
Posted by Kerryanne, Saturday, 30 July 2011 11:16:38 PM
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Kerryanne,

No one is attempting to "take" anything away from you. You come across as an insular and bellicose first-world person who can't for the life of her see the "fact" that Westerners are both very fortunate and very greedy.
I bet you would never dream that those hordes of procreating Somalis somehow got dudded by the West in the form of that old IMF smoke and mirrors party trick - the "structural adjustment" program.

Here's an article first published in 1993. I hope you'll find time to really read it, especially after the intro and from the heading "The IMF intervention in the early 1980's". It's revealing just how much destabilization ensues from messing up a country's traditional economy - and in Somalia's case it has been devastating.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25725
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 31 July 2011 1:23:19 AM
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Poirot,

I am aware of this culture take from the west all the aid you can while we rich Arabs drown in oil money and watch our fellow Muslim die.
I find it deeply offensive when i see little old pensioners struggle to give aid while they sit back doing nothing.
Good people with good intentions like Lexi .
I will help where I can but Australia is always used for aid.
I am offended given everybody was talking about how to help yet still they get dumped on like that.
So Poirot ( cute name) what about the rich Muslims?

Are they insular too or just obtuse
Posted by Kerryanne, Sunday, 31 July 2011 7:05:41 AM
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I doubt many people in Somalia will be thinking about contraception at a time when the basics of living are so scarce.
suzeonline,
that's exactly my point. They never think contraception because they never had to. In the pre-colonial days they simply let perish. Western compassion is a cause of much suffering by introducing help thus removing the sense of responsibility from the suffering communities.
That's why the aid organisations need to switch to aid with prevention rather than take on insurmountable mentality & logistics. Step one is to introduce the benefits of contraception. This can be done by rewarding the participants. It would be the first step to stamp out starvation & suffering. The onus of responsibility must be put on those who have the ability to be responsible.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 31 July 2011 7:42:45 AM
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Kerryanne,
re the filthy rich Muslims I'd like to add just on e Saudi Prince who has 8 private jets, big ones, the latest an A380 for a cool 1 billion Dollars. Surely the do-gooders couldn't ask him to help out. I mean the costs to run 8 huge private jets doesn't leave much to help others, does it now ?
Surely an australian pensioner on $30,- week after rent & permits & licenses & Govt charges can spare some money for the non-stop breeders.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 31 July 2011 8:07:07 AM
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Kerryanne and individual,

Would neither of you two intelligent fair-minded Aussies consider reading the article - even just to glean that the West is not blameless in the debacle that unfolded in Somalia?

I find it "deeply offensive", Kerryanne, when neoliberal institutions like the IMF and World Bank move into the developing world and set up structures to syphon off their wealth, while simultaneously destroying traditional social and economic ties.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 31 July 2011 8:11:40 AM
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Kerryanne,

the filthy-rich Muslims are part of the same system as ours. I don't see their excesses as any different. In the West obscene wealth is generally offset by the welfare state, which keeps the working classes mollified (sedated actually), whereas in these Islamic states the old order has been largely unquestioned, or civil disobedience has been put down violently, in the same way we used to do it. The celebrated spread of democracy in the Middle East will merely make it incumbent on corrupt regimes to provide welfare and minimum wages etc., except the world is increasingly incapable of sustaining such global rises in living standards. Welfare standards among the idle poor are likely to be cut in the West--so as to maintain the idle rich in the condition to which they're accustomed--so it is highly doubtful poor countries will transition to democracies. Our precious democracies, incidentally, are not "democracies" in any "qualitative" sense. Social revolutions are likely to erupt all over the world this century, in the West as welfare is cut back and in the East as it fails to emerge, such as we're seeing now. Violent State control will ultimately fail and the system will collapse. The second law of thermodynamics applies also to economics in a closed system. Capital can be readily likened to energy, and entropy is inevitable.
But Kerryanne, you and others here suffer from what I like to call "cultural blindness"; you're incapable of viewing the situation objectively, or from adopting the subaltern perspective (which is also one-faceted and purblind).
Posted by Squeers, Sunday, 31 July 2011 8:26:31 AM
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Squeers

They are most certainly NOT part of our society and the rich Muslims can buy guns with their trillions in oil money instead of supplying birth control education. As for the west for once i agree with belly. We are heading for a greater depression than the 1020s
Aussies cant pay their mortgages and we have thousands of homeless.
Unlike you i was one of the few who might had arranged assistance to get into the joint via muslim contacts.
Lexi this is what happens when you start talking about helping these people voluntarily. This is what the little lass Amie I think her name was learned on the other thread. They come in with no offer to help or ideas as we were all discussing and just *demand more. Know this Lexi- they will take your food IF! they get it and pray for forgiveness for eating something provided by the west. They are raised to hate us. I know its not their fault but its not yours either.

As I said I am sick of watching mostly the old pensioners pay for aid when the Muslims themselves wont supply birth control education and sit back and watch them breeding and dying.
So why dont you and P go over and take some birth control along with you. We are of course the most generous country on earth mostly based on our strong christain background.

We certainly are the givers of this world and its time to tell them to put some birth control into their system or we will stop all aid

If you really want to help those people thats how you do it

Ok Lexi was a nice thread dear for a while but i dont need idiots annoying me.

See u on another threa
Posted by Kerryanne, Sunday, 31 July 2011 9:09:59 AM
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@ Individual & Suzi

Further to: “I doubt many people in Somalia will be thinking about contraception at a time when the basics of living are so scarce.”

Those who don’t think to buy straw hats in winter are liable to get burnt.
And those who are wont to make whoopee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRkaPyyEwgA&feature=related
and lots of babies in lush times are liable to face hunger & want in lean times.

Yemen is not Somalia, but they are geographically and culturally close. Here’s a little piece that might shed some light.

“Over 80 percent of the population know about family planning methods, but the problem lies in practice he said
He said some thought family planning would lead to health problems and that it was not allowed in Islam.
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/publisher,IRIN,,YEM,487f10c3c,0.html

@ Squeers (aka Squire --LOL)

Further to : “but there are a lot more items you might have included in your list. Fat westerners living in mansions, for instance, and organ transplants while people die of dirty water and starvation. What about the millions in the beauty and fashion industry too? And on and on it goes.”

Perhaps we should add *our population explosion of social science graduates* who contribute little of worth to the lot of human wisdom, and are often rewarded well beyond their worth.
Posted by SPQR, Sunday, 31 July 2011 9:18:17 AM
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Kerryanne:
<They are most certainly NOT part of our society... >

I never said anything about them being part of our "society" or our culture, but part of the same economic system--which strictly makes quaint distinctive notions of society and culture ridiculous.

However, clearly you and others here are beyond reason.
Posted by Squeers, Sunday, 31 July 2011 9:19:50 AM
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Squeers:"We all have to learn to live sustainably; the starving and unsustainable millions elsewhere are simply the obverse of obscene glut in countries like Australia."

And like every society through history, the poor bear the brunt of any catastrophes. The purpose of wealth is not to make it possible to live in a nicer home, but to make it possible to continue to have a nice home to live in while others are living in ditches. In historical times it was not unusual for the wealth of a community to be so concentrated that the only part of a town that was defended was the local lord's castle.

In our global environment, we ARE the lords (albeit very minor nobility who've risen from the muck) and the peasants have to look after themselves. This is a simple fact of life. We could send ourselves broke trying to feed them all, but that wouldn't solve their problem, which is that there are too many of them for the land they live in to support so it will routinely be their fate to suffer drought and famine. Unless we want to debase our own lifetyles by opening the doors of the castle, there's not much we can do except hide our women and kids inside where they don't have to watch the slaughter and become upset.
Posted by Antiseptic, Sunday, 31 July 2011 9:32:02 AM
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Kerryanne,

Squeers said they were part of the "system", not our society. Ergo the "filthy rich" Arab countries are the one's don't get a dose of Uncle Sam's "knock 'em down and build 'em up for profit" medicine.

We in the West are not the "givers" - most emphatically, we are the "takers". I challenge you to study the situations of just about every third world country in dire straits - you will find that the U.S./European controlled institutions of the IMF and the World Bank have contributed to or been instrumental in the destruction and destabilisation of their traditional economies - and that's on top of whatever damage was wrought by colonialism.

Hiya Lexi...good thread, and one where it's helpful to look beneath the surface at how systems have effects further along the chain.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 31 July 2011 9:38:14 AM
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Ah come on Poirot, no need for your Western guilt trip. If anyone
exploits people in the third world, it is the powerful there,
exploiting their own.

The IMF and World Bank have been full of people with good intentions,
who thought that building dams and roads in these countries might
be a good thing. Most were too naive to realise that the powerful
would simply run off with the treasury, when given the opportunity.

Now we impose all sorts of conditions to avoid these things, so
the Chinese are moving in to provide "aid", they don't ask any
questions and just get on with plundering any possible resources.

The worst thing we ever did in places like Africa was send in the
Catholic missionaries. They filled up the kids with vaccines etc,
did all they could to deny adults contraception, the result has
been a massive population explosion and even more hunger and famines.

So if anyone has screwed up the continent, its not the IMF or
World Bank, more like the Vatican.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 31 July 2011 10:49:28 AM
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Lexi

Excellent thread. My thoughts have been succinctly presented by posters such as Squeers and Poirot. I see the usual blame game used by some for situations over which people have no control. There are no guarantees in life and I remain ever grateful, through accident of birth, I was born into a society like Australia (even though it is not without fault), but as a woman I have had the benefit of education, a reasonable health system and the legal right to lead an independent life.

The Western world has made its money at the expense of the third world and we do have the power and money to do better for those we have exploited and still retain a roof over our own heads. As long as there remain people like Lexi we still have hope. As long as we ignore those who would denigrate us and continue to aid people where we are able, there is hope.

Be interesting to watch as we run out of fossil fuels - not necessarily pleasant but interesting to see how those who rely upon the castles built from speculation cope when those edifices collapse. Knowing how to live off the land may well be the best skill to have.
Posted by Ammonite, Sunday, 31 July 2011 10:49:36 AM
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Again, this thread has taken off in directions I did not expect.
However, that is a good thing - and for me at least - the varied
points of view gives me much to think about. I value all of your
inputs - because you've brought up things that I would not have
thought of and it is good as Poirot pointed out to look beyond
the surface, so to speak.

I'm not familiar with the history of Africa, as such, and I don't
know the causes - or the root of the problems that exist in this
continent. My husband tells me that droughts are a serious problem,
they produce the famines. Then there's tribal fighting. There's
over-population, disease, and so on. He says that you'd need to invest big time in building infrastructure - like dams and water storage systems so that you'd be better equipt to handle the droughts when they come. You need to look into hardier crops as Kerryanne suggested
that were able to survive in dry conditions. What I can't fathom
is these problems have existed for centuries. And they will obviously
continue to exist. Why can't something more constructive be done
about them? Is it greed? Are there so many factions within the
land mass - that simply do not want to interact to help each other? I just don't know. But surely there must be better ways of dealing with this ongoing problem that isn't going to go away anytime soon.
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 31 July 2011 10:55:41 AM
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Yabby,

Well that's where you're wrong, Yabby.
Altruism isn't part of the paradigm. The IMF and the World Bank are only too happy to recruit corrupt ruling elites - in fact, these two institutions contribute to the delinquency of these regimes.
Often the ruling elite are made up of members who began their careers in the IMF or the World Bank (or other similar institutions) - and in cases such as Egypt, for example, these institutions award brownie points for being the top "reformer".
Of course, while all this is being paraded on the world stage, ordinary people are subject to higher unemployment and scarcer, more expensive resources.

http://www.whistleblower.org/blog/31-20120/1083-arab-uprisings-show-the-impact-of-the-world-and-the-imf

and even after the uprisings, they're still at it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/07/egypt-imf-loan
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 31 July 2011 11:12:49 AM
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Gawd Poirot, so you found some corruption! Go and read why the
World bank and IMF were set up in the first place. Then tell me
in which global institution or Govt there is no corruption at all.
Fact is that in the ME and alot of the third world, corruption is
their way of life.

Lexi, droughts are a normal part of nature, climate systems vary.
When I was a kid, Africa had a population of 240 million. Now it
has over a billion, heading for 2 billion. Whilst you don't address
that elephant in the room, all feelgood policies are pretty hopeless.

The interesting thing about farming is that it gives one a great
insight into this very problem and how to deal with it. A farm
only has a problem in droughts, if it is overstocked. Cut the
stocking density, your problem vanishes. The same applies to
a country or continent.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 31 July 2011 11:38:24 AM
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Lexi,
While the famine in the Horn of Africa is bad and one cannot help but feel for those affected, it is but one of many throughout history.
See list below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

The most recent and most devastating was in China 1958-61 where some estimate that 50 million died. Officially it is 15 million.

This list goes back to Roman times yet we have some sily persons in the articles section here saying climate change is to blame.

I notice from the list thatcountries in Africa have had more famines in recent history and I wonder if this is because of lack of early information or that later, because medicine ensured more babies and people survived, thus a great rise in population.
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 31 July 2011 11:47:45 AM
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Yabby,

I have read why these institutions were set up in the first place. I've also read how their original brief became skewed over time. I posted a link earlier in this thread on that very subject - here it is again.
http://globalenvision.org/library/23/1524
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 31 July 2011 11:51:31 AM
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*Developed countries which have excess of these food items reduce their prices and export them to Africa as a way of getting rid of them.*

Poirot, the above snipped from your article and I fully agree with
that. Dumping caused by US and EU subsidies has done untold
damage around the world, including to Australian farmers.

That is not the fault of the IMF or World Bank, but the fault
of the EU and US Govts!
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 31 July 2011 12:09:24 PM
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We in the West are not the "givers" - most emphatically, we are the "takers".
Poirot,
No & yes & yes & no. Yes the west has taken in return for giving in every which way. The reason why the west is now seen as a taker only is because when the west started taking, the west also started to give knowledge & help in return. This wasn't taken up by many as it involves work & responsibility. The people from those countries in many ways have a very similar mentality to our public servants. Don't make me do anything or make me responsible, just share with me what you have due to your efforts & initiative.
Poirot are you prepared to share everything you have made with every indigenous on whose land you live ?
Posted by individual, Sunday, 31 July 2011 12:26:44 PM
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I'm barely at home to post lately, but have enjoyed your comments and links, Poirot, especially since they tend to agree with me.
The main point I'm trying to get across is the interconnectedness of everything. Our wealth is the product of globalisation, just as third world population explosion and poverty ultimately is. The whole thing is completely unsustainable and out of control, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. We should stop the blame game and see it how it is, because the power elites are clearly bent on driving the whole thing over the cliff; it will then be a scramble to see who dominates in the aftermath.
Posted by Squeers, Sunday, 31 July 2011 12:30:46 PM
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Good summation, Squeers.
In our globalised world it is all connected. We're all aboard the train and it's heading towards the cliff. The U.S. debt ceiling crisis (apparently 14.3 trillion isn't high enough) is an ominous portent of things to come - although one expects they'll play out their brinkmanship until the last minute.

Yabby,

"That is not the fault of the IMF or the World Bank, but the fault of the EU and the US Govts!"

That could be the most naive post I've ever read from you.
Think of the IMF and the World Bank as the banqueting staff - they set up the whole show at the behest of the EU and the U.S. (and various other Western interests) who then help themselves to the goodies on offer.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 31 July 2011 1:12:15 PM
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Yes Poirot, I know that as a good old leftie you'd be lost without
evil Western conspiracy theories.

Fact is that if you are a developing country and you want to build
a dam, and nobody else will lend you the money, the World Bank will.

If you are a Korea or a Thailand and your finances get out of whack
and nobody else will lend you the money, the IMF will. As they did.
Look at those two now.

Fact is that EU and US dumping of agricultural products is driven
by their respective domestic politics and has absolutaly nothing
to do with free trade or globalisation but everything to do
with local political pork barrelling. 300 billion $ a year is the
last figure that I saw, hardly chicken feed and hugely distorting.

If you don't understand the difference, so be it. Economics and
politics are not the same thing, even if you confuse them.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 31 July 2011 1:30:24 PM
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I found the following website interesting and I'd like to share it with you - it answers quite a few questions:

http://www.globalissues.org/issue/2/causes-of-poverty
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 31 July 2011 1:42:41 PM
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Almost half the world — over 3 billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day.
Lexi,
The sad reality is that these 3 billion breed three times faster than the rest. I don't see this as their fault alone by any means. Every single western but not necessarily white decision maker on this planet has their finger in the pie of guilt.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 31 July 2011 3:10:51 PM
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Lexi,
The gist of the website in your last post appears to me that human fertility is a decease that wouldn't need much at all to stamp out much of the misery. Certainly more environmentally friendly & cheaper & more effective then warfare & refugees.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 31 July 2011 3:21:22 PM
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Individual,
Also education and providing family planing methods, like Iran did, would be far more effective in lowering carnon emmissions than any tax.

Think of all the advantages in lowering world population.
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 31 July 2011 5:58:19 PM
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Dear Individual,

You're right about population growth. It is a worry
that an unprecedented explosion has occurred in the
poorer nations of the world. However as Poirot
and others have also pointed out in this thread -
we are beginning to recognise that the high living
standards of the developed countries have depended in
part on the exploitation of the limited resources of the
less developed countries.

It's time we realized that population cannot increase
indefinitely in a world that has finite resources.

From the little that I've read it seems that much of
the poverty in the lessdeveloped countries results
from an unequal distribution of global resources. If
all the world's food was equally distributed, there
wouold be nough to maintain the present population above
subsistence level. But, in fact, half the world's grain
is fed not to people but to livestock, so that a small
part of the global population may enjoy a diet high in
animal meat and fats. In years, when millions of
children in other countries literally starve, the US
government pays farmers millions of dollars to keep land
idle, in order to avoid local surpluses and maintain
prices. And even if the various political and distribution
problems could be overcome, the world's food would feed
only a third of the present population at the dietary level
that many North Americans, and Australians, take for granted.

Moreover, the gap between the rich and the poor nations is
steadily widening and is likely to continue to do so. The
picture is rather bleak.
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 31 July 2011 5:58:30 PM
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Hi Lexi,

I've posted this link a few times previously here and there on the forum. It's from a Reith 2000 lecture by Indian physicist, philosopher and environmental activist, Vandana Shiva. She argues that biodiversity is integral to third world food supply - that autonomy has been usurped from subsistence farmers and that traditional knowledge has been lost due to globalisation and industrial agriculture. She asserts that much of the rich diversity and sustainable systems of food production have been destroyed.

I think you'll get a lot from the article - she's a knowledgeable lady.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/events/reith_2000/lecture5.stm
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 31 July 2011 6:22:32 PM
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Dear Banjo,

I agree with you that education and family planning
is vital in these poor countries. However, the
problem is further complicated by the fact that
like people everywhere, people are reluctant
to accept changes in cultural values, particularly
those related to family.

In many traditional societies a man's virility
is gauged by the number of children he fathers, and most
traditional societies emphasize the domestic role of the
wife as mother and child-rearer.

Poorly educated people in
a tradition-bound society may have difficulty appreciating
that the value of a large family has changed within the
course of a generation or so. Even today, a large family may
serve important functions for parents in developing
societies. In countries that lack a system of social
security, children provide the only guarantee that one will be
looked after in old age.

Still something needs to be done - especially in Africa,
where famines are now common place.

It may prove to be
the case that the planet lacks the resources to support
many billions of people at anything remotely resembling
the standard of living of the developed countries.

Nor is it easy to see how the environment could tolerate
the amount of pollution involved in a world consisting
entirely of heavily populated and fully industrialised
societies. It is possible that some of the less
developed societies will never reach the level of
socio-economic development that has historically been
necessary before a demographic transition occurred.
The best that can be said is that, at present, the
demographic fate of the world and its peoples hangs in
a precarious balance.
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 31 July 2011 6:33:18 PM
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Ah, another of Poirot's favourite anti western gurus :)

Never mind that in my lifetime, the population of India has
tripled, never mind that the farm plots are getting smaller and
smaller each year, with more and more people trying to make a
living from those smaller and smaller plots, its all the evil
West at fault!
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 31 July 2011 6:35:15 PM
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Dear Poirot,

Thank You. It's a brilliant article one
which I'm going to ear-mark for future
reference. Gandhi summed it up beautifully:

"The earth has enough for everyone's needs,
but not for some people's greed."
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 31 July 2011 6:41:25 PM
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*"The earth has enough for everyone's needs,
but not for some people's greed."*

Lexi, its exactly those sorts of feelgood statements which the
pope and others use, to justify the ever increasing human
population. If only some of those evil people would change
their behaviour, eveything will be ok. Sorry, human dna
does not work that way.

Its those sorts of feelgood statements which got us into
the mess that we are heading for. Never mind, let nature
sort it out the hard way, when the whole thing crashes.
Darwin was right yet again. Sad but true.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 31 July 2011 7:32:13 PM
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much of the rich diversity and sustainable systems of food production have been destroyed.
Poirot,
by whom ? Ah, I see. The bad, bad white man. If the western white man is so bad then why do westernised non-whites try their darnest to not only emulate them but outright out-do them.
The white westerner has actually come to realise his mistakes & has done an awful lot since to rectify them. The non-white westerners are still only at the bottom of the rise to these mistakes. No amount of making a point of past mistakes is being heeded by the new greedy.
It's much more convenient to keep up the blame game.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 31 July 2011 8:43:35 PM
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individual,

Western man is very clever. He took his technology to India to help them grow lots of food - something he called "The Green Revolution"....and for a time he did produce huge yields (although much was stockpiled to keep prices higher)....unfortunately clever Western man wasn't as visionary as he presumed because in the process of "selling" Western technology to Indians he has managed to degrade the countryside, poisoning the soil with pesticides and over fertilisation, leaching nutrients and causing massive soil erosion. He contaminated the ground water and depleted the water table. Now Indian agriculture is at an impasse....apparently they're thinking of repeating the experiment in Africa.

This is quite an informative article on the unsustainable nature of the Green Revolution.
http://nwrage.org/content/india-second-green-revolution-whom-whom
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 31 July 2011 9:27:39 PM
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http://blogs.reuters.com/africanews/2009/02/05/time-to-stop-aid-for-africa/

http://greatergood.org/gtgm-SomaliaCrisisRelief-37623.html?gclid=COag6JzDq6oCFQEDHAodi3PzWg

http://www.condoms4life.org/facts/lesserEvil.htm

In many ways, America is the land of plenty. But for 1 in 6 Americans, hunger is a reality. Many people believe that the problems associated with hunger are confined to small pockets of society, certain areas of the country, or certain neighbourhoods, but the reality is much different.
50 million Americans —including 17 million children — are struggling with hunger. We all know and are in contact with people affected by hunger, even though we might not be aware of it.
Posted by Kerryanne, Sunday, 31 July 2011 10:44:22 PM
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Step one is to introduce the benefits of contraception. This can be done by rewarding the participants. It would be the first step to stamp out starvation & suffering. The onus of responsibility must be put on those who have the ability to be responsible.
individual,

individual,

I didnt see your post earlier I was too busy leaving.

The thread is now gone into a anti white western - Sorry i wasn't being rude.
cheer
Posted by Kerryanne, Sunday, 31 July 2011 11:40:57 PM
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Dear Yabby,

The quote was given in context to the
article which Poirot cited - and in
the context of the article it was
appropriate. Of course you can take it
as a feel-good statement, that's your
opinion. However American-based
multinationals have an impressive record
of interference in the affairs of the host
countries, with activities ranging from
bribery of local officials to attempts to
overthrow foreign governments. The US
Congress in the past demanded extensive
investigations of illicit corporate
activity. Exxon, it was discovered had paid
nearly $60 million to government officials in
fifteen nations, Lockheed had distributed $200
million in bribes and payoffs, in several countries,
and the resulting scandals implicated many world
leaders. In all, more than 500 major American
corporations, most of them multinationals admitted
giving bribes or other questionable payments to
government officials in order to obtain benefits
for themselves.

The multinationals do offer many useful resources to
the less developed countries. They encourage economic growth
by importing the necessary capital and technology, and
they create new industries and markets all over the world.
But their motives are purely selfish - to exploit cheap
labour and resources on an international scale for the
benefit of a handful of stockholders in wealthy countries.
That to you might mean - simply a price that has to be paid
in order to do business - but as Poirot's article pointed
out - it often is to the detriment of the people of the host
country. Hence Gandhi's quote about greed - which in this
context was (in my opinion) appropriate.
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 31 July 2011 11:56:04 PM
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Lexi,
All I can do is again refer to what Iran did and there the government with the help of religous leaders lowered the birthrate from 6.5 per woman to less than 2 per woman. All by education and the provission of the means.

I maintain that if Iran can do that there is no reason why other countries cannot do the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_planning_in_Iran

This is a wikipedia link, but you can google quite a few others.

The UN would be better off concentrating their efforts in this way and presure put on leaders of all religions to change their stance on contraception.
Posted by Banjo, Monday, 1 August 2011 12:15:27 AM
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Poirot propaganda is not science.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 1 August 2011 12:18:42 AM
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http://oldarchive.godspy.com/life/Gandhi-on-Sex-Marriage-and-Birth-Control-by-Daniel-Vitz.cfm.html

Lexi, according to the above article, Gandhi was actually against
artificial birth control and abortion, perhaps not the wisest
belief in a country that was already then overpopulated.

Poirot, I read your url on the green revolution with some interest.
The problem with agronomy is that its extremely complicated with
many variables, unlike say engineering, where you can read a table
and work with a fixed value. So it can be a can of worms with top
argonomists commonly argueing between themselves, as they look at
different perspectives of a problem.

The thing is, agriculture is essentially mining, unless you replace
what you have removed. Look at the fertile Cresent, not so fertile
anymore.

It could well be that something like permaculture is more suitable
for parts of the third world, for people to feed their families.
But in the 1960s, the Indian population was much smaller, plot sizes
much larger and famines common. The green revolution fed people not
fed before, fairly quickly.

It is wrong to say that fertiliser, irrigation, better genetics,
insecticides etc, are all evil. They can do massive good but they
are also easily misused, with disasterous consequences
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 1 August 2011 12:30:11 AM
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Western man is very clever.
Poirot,
that may or may not be the case. In my view the westerner is rather short-sighted but there are a handful of westerners who have more vision than most.
I'm unsure as to the exact number of Indians but I'm guessing that India now has an equal, if not greater number of westerners. To that add all the other non-white westerners & you're arriving at the real blame-game show gates.
Monkey see, monkey do.
Posted by individual, Monday, 1 August 2011 5:57:29 AM
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There's a simple question of self-interest here. If we assume the world has a finite capacity to produce food, even with every technological trick in the book and we also assume that this maximisation is dependent on large amounts of energy we start to get some picture of the consequences of overbreeding.

Further, how much less food are we in Australia prepared to give our children so that children in other parts of the world might do better? To even suggest reducing the single-parent pension or removing some of the less-essential handouts paid ostensibly for children is to invite howls of outrage, so imagine the noise if it was government policy to send food offshore and even one Australian child went hungry for even one meal!

The fact is that OUR children are far more important to US than someone else's kids. A whinge from OUR child is much more urgent than the cries of a child in some other country who's dying of starvation. This is the human reality and it's a tough one. It's been masked for the past generation by the green Revolution, but it's always been there.

While I feel very sorry for the people in Somalia, if their country cannot sustain life then they either have to find somewhere else or starve regularly. This is also part of the human reality that brought us to this point in our history. It's not pretty, but it's a fact and no amount of wishful thinking will change it.

I've come to realise that humanity is just a series of families - the state is an agreement between those families to allow someone to speak on behalf of all to save the hassle of having to get everyone together. Sometimes, as in a democracy, the agreement is a free one, although to a greater or lesser degree in different states. Sometimes the agreement is coerced by force, as in authoritarian or military regimes, or monarchies. But the basic unit is still "me and the missus/old man and my kids".

Somali parents need to look after their kids better.
Posted by Antiseptic, Monday, 1 August 2011 6:33:39 AM
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Yabby,

I agree with your last paragraph particularly and, yes, I think the Green Revolution was another instance of man taking a reasonable idea and flogging it to death. Mankind has a penchant for overstepping the mark. That is what he's done in India - conveniently forgetting that in order for the environment to sustain itself, it's necessary to maintain a balance in its ecology.
Apparently there was devastating famine in Bengal in the forties, and it was reasonable for technologically advancing man to see if he could turn the tide - which he did. There seems to be no middle ground or moderation once profits are being made. The situation in India is complex - thousands of dams have been built to water thirsty crops like cotton, but have also resulted in the deviation of water from ordinary subsistence farmers who have then packed up and moved to the cities.

Individual and Kerryanne,

I'm simply pointing out that mankind, for all his cleverness, seems to be devoid of a "moderation" gene.....and that Western man is never in more need of one than when he stands to make a profit from his ingenuity and entrepreneurship.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 1 August 2011 8:49:32 AM
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< for all his cleverness, seems to be devoid of a "moderation" gene.....and that Western man is never in more need of one than when he stands to make a profit from his ingenuity and entrepreneurship>

Well put, Poirot.

Another point I would make apropos recent posts, is that it's all very well to go on about overpopulation but a) it's driven by global economics too, and not just a mania to breed, and b) overconsumption by wealthy nations, despite stable population growth, is every bit as big a problem as overpopulation.
Ethically, it is a much bigger problem!!

Kerryanne's 17 million hungry Americans is an internal example of the gross inequalities that also prevail internationally. These 17 million don't need welfare either, they need a life wherein they can provide for themselves. The system denies people the capacity to be even middling self-sufficient, instead breeding utter dependency in those who, for whatever reason, fail to "prosper" (read accumulate) in the rat race. It's impossible to opt out except by way of beggary, and for a great many it's impossible to surmount the various barriers, tangible and intangible, that block the way.
Meanwhile the fat cats and complacent middle classes look down condescendingly from their imagined heights.
Posted by Squeers, Monday, 1 August 2011 9:17:18 AM
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Squeers, there are very few people in the world who would give half of the last of their food to a stranger. This is because such behaviour is not selected for in the rather brutish world of natural selection. If we're in a famine and I give some food to you, we both may die and so neither of us pass on our genes. If I make the hard-nosed decision to do all I can to maximise my own food intake, I may survive and hence pass on my genes.

All the sophistry in the world can't hide the underlying reality - people take care of themselves first, their kids next and everyone else afterwards. This is even more the case in extremis.

What is the point of accumulating wealth if not to insulate oneself from life's worst experiences?
Posted by Antiseptic, Monday, 1 August 2011 9:31:32 AM
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Poirot,

I read this thread from head to toe and what i saw was a few people talking about the best ways to help. Until YOU came along with your anti western rant.

So what I think you are apart from a trouble maker is someone probably from a non western country who lives under the western system and never stops running us down. Now speaking of help tell us what YOU are doing to help these people?

You rave on about others miss high and mighty -
Posted by Underbelly, Monday, 1 August 2011 10:04:21 AM
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underbelly,

It's endlessly fascinating that when someone points out the West's impact on the third world, people like you toss around epithets like "troublemaker"...I'll wear that with a badge of honour, btw.....

Now, if I may interrupt your semi-regular sweep of OLO chastising people for their opinions - and nice of you to parachute into the thread to take care of moi - but can I inquire as to whether you have anything to offer regarding the original premise of the thread?
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 1 August 2011 10:37:37 AM
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You still have not realised what is happening around you !
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 1 August 2011 11:04:03 AM
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Poirot,

I already did by asking you what you intended to do about it.
Its a bit hypocritical to go about your having a go at the west and people o this thread without knowing what your doing.
I am waiting for you to answer my question.?
Posted by Underbelly, Monday, 1 August 2011 11:24:50 AM
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Dear Banjo, Yabby, and others,

I agree with you that population growth represents one of the most
critical social problems in the modern world, with consequences in terms of sheer human misery that are almost unimaginable. Yet 90 percent of the billion or so births that will occur before the end of the century will take place in the world's poorest countries.

There are population-control strategies that are being tried - from family planning, anti-natalism (that is, antibirth strategies) and economic improvements.

Westerners are often guilty of the "technological fallacy," the belief
that merely applying technology to a problem will solve it. But
people have to be persuaded to make use of contraceptive technology, and they will not do so if the technology runs counter to their values. Although hundreds of millions of people in the world have been sterilized or have accepted contraceptives, they have done so only after they have produced what they believe is a sufficiently large family. Family planning is an essential element in population limitations, but the strategy is not sufficient in itself.

I read somewhere that the family-planning efforts of many less developed nations fail, it seems, because the resources of these societies are unfairly shared: typically, a tiny elite enjoys a
disproportionate share (and its birth rate drops), but the mass of the
people remain in hopeless poverty (and maintain high birth rates). If this analysis is correct, then policies that focus on a sharing of resources, rather than exclusively on economic development that may benefit only a minority, may be a promising way to reduce global population growth.

We know there are political, religious, and other ideological influences that affect social attitudes concerning population limitation. Many religions emphasize some version of the Judeo-Christian injunction to "be fruitful and multiply." An old Arab proverb declares that "to have many children is to be blessed by Allah," and Islamic religion in several countries is opposed to birth control. The Catholic Church, which is particularly influential in South America - where very high birth rates and grinding poverty are
prevalent has always opposed contraception.
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 1 August 2011 11:38:10 AM
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*Ethically, it is a much bigger problem!!*

Squeers, that is highly debatable. Your urge to pass on your genes
in the race of life is in fact driven by your self interest.
By leaving a tribe of kids behind, you are creating a Ponzi scheme
in a way, the long term effects on the planet are far greater
then a single individual living it up a little.

The notion that you have children for altruistic reasons is in
fact a flawed one.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 1 August 2011 11:40:33 AM
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It's endlessly fascinating when someone points out the West's impact on the third world. Full stop.

While I rate Poirot and don't know this underbelly character, I can see his point.

I think I really just don't care about the 'Starving children of Africa' (Just rolls off the toungue so well!). The SCoA!

Like the MIC (Military Industrial Complex). I love the sound of that!

To me, it's all earnest dinner party conversation with the aim (subconscious or otherwise) of anointing one as a virtuous worldly caring person.

It's bunkum. If I really cared, I'd do something more substantial than a lazy 50 to the odd aid organisation based on my mood. So I refuse to talk, and talk, and talk, with the objective of... what was the score in the footy yesterday.

The first post on here reminds me of when I was about 10 and thought the world was much more simple.

Sure the Single Mother chastizers and self congratulatory achievers and market worshipers come up with their own cliches (Do-gooder being a good one), but the payoff of the 'woe is me aren't we all so bad' lot ('Except I'm not quite so bad because I'm not really that rich and I have short showers'), to me is much more self-serving, with the irony of having the appearance of altruism. It really irks me.

I mean the right can appear heartless, but so can a parent denying a child a lolipop. I see the far right as people with a strong inner parent, the far left with a strong inner child. I aim for that inner adult.

What can or is really going to be done in all this agonising over the less well off. How intellectually lazy to come up with the usual Midnight Oil type cliche of social conscience, the lamenting of American imperialism and oh the humanity think of the children! I'm achieving the same (ie zero) while refusing to blow my altruist horn.

Get a life.

Smile.

Go bowling!

Nobody is impressed with all this chatter and noise.
Posted by Houellebecq, Monday, 1 August 2011 11:41:33 AM
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A person who aims at nothing
is sure to hit it.
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 1 August 2011 12:01:26 PM
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You're not aiming Foxy, you're talking.

Or, grandstanding really.(Blatantly so now!)

See, it takes more character to admit you're doing nothing. To admit to having no control over it at all. To throw away such delusions. All the noise is a distraction to the truth that you live in the life of luxury compared to these people you patronise and you're attempting to attain social capital by pointing it out. It's all very convenient isn't it.

I have to courage to admit I am indifferent to the suffering of the third world, as is evidenced by my actions, which I'll wager don't differ significantly from yours. (Apart from the noise and chatter) .

As I am indifferent to anything as I lovingly look into my beautiful daughters' eyes, and the world is a bloody fantastic place.

I don't want to swap places with third world kiddies. I could, and so could you. I would swap places with my daughters if they were suffering.

What will your little talkfest here achieve but for a bit of light entertainment for the chattering classes. Maybe it will get your heart pumping and have some physical positives.

I have more class than to use suffering kiddies for an entertaining chat. I'm sure they're all really comforted that those with the luxuary to sit around and post crap on the internet 'care' enough to throw out a few 'ideas' that have been done to death. For entertainment. Noice!
Posted by Houellebecq, Monday, 1 August 2011 12:13:30 PM
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'I get a bit weary of the Princes peering out of the palace windows pontificating on the parlous state of humanity while simultaneously gobbling up all the goodies of the world...shaking their heads and fingers while indulging in gluttony. It's the West's standard hypocrisy.'

Poirot.

Beautifully put. But that's exactly what you're doing!

Or like 'travellers' complaining a site has too many tourists. You ARE a tourist.

Just because you have a back-pack not a suitcase with wheels doesn't make you more virtuous or authentic. It actually makes you MORE of a cliche!

I see one side of the argument thinks it's ok to live a life that exploits others as long as you declare it all the time, but I reckon those who don't feel the need for that cathartic self flagellation with the convenient pay off of social capital to be more honest.

I mean, do you all try not to tread on ants? Do you go to dinner parties and bemoan the ants that you have recklessly trodden on your whole life? DO you regale us with all the kosher methods of avoiding ant masacre?
Posted by Houellebecq, Monday, 1 August 2011 12:35:25 PM
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Hehe Houllie, I love your thinking:) But of course you will be
shot for being the messenger. People want to feel good about themselves, emotions are black and white.

The reality is that every single poster on OLO prefers to fool
around on OLO, rather then sell their computer to feed the
starving babies in Africa.

The Vatican prefers to keep all their pomp, splendour and wealth
of Rome, rather then save the starving babies.

So pontification is what we have, that is the reality, even if
some don't want to hear it
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 1 August 2011 2:20:39 PM
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Hi Houellebecq,

Quite frankly I am surprised that you've seen fit
to contribute so many posts to a topic that you
consider to be merely "chatter" and "noise."

I've explained my reasons for this thread several
times in this discussion and regardless of what
you may think - this thread is not about me. However
if drawing attention to the current plight of the
worst famine in 60 years in Africa -
and the UNICEF East Africa Emergency Appeal
one person is going to donate something to help -
then something positive would have resulted (in my opinion).

I've been brought up with the belief that with one positive
word, one positive thought, one positive idea -
great achievements can be built. And I've found that those
who deny the well-being of others are the first to demand their
own rights.

I'm sorry that you feel all this is a waste of time et cetera -
but as you've proclaimed in the past - no one has the right
to tell you what to think, post, et cetera. Perhaps you
could consider returning the same courtesy to others - seeing
as you insist on it for yourself. Also - if you feel
something is not worth discussing - you could always stay away -
from the topic and not contribute to it thus not wasting your
own time and sparing us your wisdom - which although greatly
appreciated - we can really do without the negativity.
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 1 August 2011 2:58:39 PM
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There's a world of narcisism in your post Foxy. For a start, the sheer arrogance to think you are 'educating people' about things any joe blog knows by picking up a paper.

Considering your audience, I doubt one poster has thought, 'wow, that's news. I didn't know that!'.

I suggest you 'raise awareness' a bit farther away from the politically active and savvy. Maybe you can do a school talking tour. Foxy's self-flagellation* 101. But it isn't about rasing awareness, plainly. It's about YOU, and showing YOU care, and an 'entertaining' topic about poor people.

'I've been brought up with the belief that with one positive
word, one positive thought, one positive idea -
great achievements can be built'

Yes, but not from you. From great thinkers is where that may apply. Delusions to think there are any 'great thinkers' trolling around on OLO. On the whole I respect the doers in the world, not the thinkers and talkers. Doers make mistakes yes but achieve far more that the thinkers, who are masters of hindsight and theory.

Positive? The whole first topic is a sea of negativity! Summary; The world's gone to hell, nobody cares except us (The good people) and lets pontificate about where it all went wrong.

'we can really do without the negativity.'
See, that's where you're wrong. It's a positive to break out from the champagne sipping self-congratulatory pontificating about poor people, and into the more positive aspects of the debate; How the world is the world and it has many good parts. One being the the enjoyment of picking off the self-flagellators like Tendulkar picks off an off-spinner.

BTW: I didn't know my opinions held so much sway as to render other people thinking they don't have a right to post contradicting opinions. And I enjoy the noise, especially the bit where i break up this back slapping party of isn't the world so terrible

* self being a slight misnomer, as the implication is invariably that other people are the real problem with the world.
Posted by Houellebecq, Monday, 1 August 2011 3:29:37 PM
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Everything is chatter and noise to Houellie, except his own chatter and noise.....
He turns up to relieve himself on the dining table supposedly to douse the pretension. He doesn't have any airs and graces himself because he's so laid back and relaxed....in fact, you name it and instantly he'll represent the epitome of everything that's contrary to your view if it suits his feel for a particular argument - he's very versatile.

He hates anyone blowing their virtuous trumpet except himself.

"I have more class than to use suffering kiddies for an entertaining chat."

Oh yeah, Houellie, in my experience, people use the word "kiddies" as an emotive tool to inflate their vacuous comments...I see you're conforming to type.

Seems a discussion on anything that criticises Western arrogance is deemed offensive by the "salts of the earth" who inhabit this forum.

underbelly,
Just because you see fit to ask a question doesn't mean I'm compelled to play your game. Mind your own business. What I do to help in its small way is my business.
.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 1 August 2011 3:30:08 PM
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'Everything is chatter and noise to Houellie, except his own chatter and noise.....
He turns up to relieve himself on the dining table supposedly to douse the pretension. He doesn't have any airs and graces himself because he's so laid back and relaxed....in fact, you name it and instantly he'll represent the epitome of everything that's contrary to your view if it suits his feel for a particular argument - he's very versatile.'

That's quite good Poirot. 5 Stars!

See, all that's needed to liven up the debate is the sniff of a challenge.

You should be happy, I quoted your good self in my analysis. I'd normally much rather quote me.

', in my experience, people use the word "kiddies" '

I am dissapointed you missed that being part of the show though.

'Seems a discussion on anything that criticises Western arrogance is deemed offensive'

Not really offensive, I just feel like I'm in a university bar or something sometimes with a bunch of 'world weary' SNAGs trying to pick up chicks with this kind of gear. All the while the chicks are eyeing off the tradies outside.

It's just the kinda thing that amuses me. I'm a reformed leftie, so while I hide my Pilger books in shame I sometimes feel the need to shoot a few unreformed dreamers.

I still maintain the very fact of the social capital that is achieved by the bleeding heart leftie makes that cliche more objectionable than the hard faced neo con. There is an inate self serving social payoff that must never be ignored. Conversely there is often an ignored altruistic result from the hard nosed rightie (intentional or otherwise) with a reduction in social capital.
Posted by Houellebecq, Monday, 1 August 2011 3:50:53 PM
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Dear Poirot,

Houellebecq is baiting and stirring.
He's desperately trying to get a rise
out of someone - forcing them to respond.
Don't fall for it. He's typically
unleashing cynical and sarcastic remarks
because it's the Internet (it's anonymous),
and hey, he can. It's his entertainment.
That's what he does on this forum.
He's trying to de-rail this thread.
Don't let him succeed.
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 1 August 2011 7:26:58 PM
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Lexi,

Houellebecq who?

: )
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 1 August 2011 7:43:39 PM
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Dear Poirot,

Good question. ;-)

Now back to the topic.

Here's another website that may be of interest:

http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/2011/07/31/somalis-in-arduous-death-march
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 1 August 2011 8:15:58 PM
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I think your take on Houellebecq and one or two others is spot on, Poirot; nothing but empty fatalism (it's not even worthy of the label cynicism--too generous Lexi). On the other hand, Houellebecq, your take on poirot, which I presume I can impute to myself, is nonsense.
I've said above that there's nothing anyone can do about the situation, the system, but at least some of us are capable of seeing the big picture, and casting a critical eye on all sides, including our own. Unfortunately, we are a tiny minority and as long as the likes of yourself and others here are in the majority, nothing will change and we will continue to be ridiculed.
Fine by me, when the Panglosses of OLO start agreeing with me, I'll know I must be wrong.
Posted by Squeers, Monday, 1 August 2011 8:21:46 PM
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It's even more entertaining when the regurgitators of lefty cliche like MIC an SCoA bang on like this....

'at least some of us are capable of seeing the big picture, and casting a critical eye on all sides, including our own. Unfortunately, we are a tiny minority'

Oh yessssss, you're all wowing me with your profound critical eyes! Hahaha. This is central to the point. As I said, university bar stuff here.

The majority can see the problems, the minority think they are special, altruistic, and the only ones that 'care'.

'as long as the likes of yourself and others here are in the majority, nothing will change and we will continue to be ridiculed.'

Well! Tell you what, come up with something worthwhile. Original even. Wow me. Then my reflex to laugh at this stuff may be deadened. I had no idea my teasing was holding you back from implimenting your plans to save the world.

Man you lot treat yourselves so seriously. I will leave you to solve the worlds problems. Just remember to alert the UN about your solutions.

BTW: 'including our own'? Hahaha. if that were the case, i wouldn't have riled you lot up. As I said, 'self' flagellators is a misnomer. You're the 'critcial eye' club, the 'other's are the blind ones causing the world's problems. Not you virtuous lot!
Posted by Houellebecq, Monday, 1 August 2011 8:39:08 PM
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Dear Squeers,

Thanks for that (and to Poirot also). All I ever wanted was to
bring people's attention to the issue - and as you say -
have a discussion on the topic, looking at the bigger picture.
BTW: Most of us know who we are - we don't need anyone's approval.
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 1 August 2011 8:41:47 PM
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*but at least some of us are capable of seeing the big picture, and casting a critical eye on all sides *

Oh come on Squeers, with the "Woe is Capitalism" as you live within
its cushy benefits and take full advantage of the system.

I judge people by what they do, not what they say. Nobody here
has given it all up for the starving kiddies. That is the reality.

Hypocrites are common. Even Poirot tunes in to capitalist pay tv,
made by the corporations which she seemingly hates. So you are not
alone
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 1 August 2011 8:57:30 PM
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Dear Yabby,

You have no way of knowing what any of us have
done to help. However if you wish to contribute
in any way - seeing
as you said you judge people by their actions -
put your money where your mouth is. You can
donate here:

http://www.unicef.org.au/Discover/News/072011/Horn-of-Africa-drought.aspx
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 1 August 2011 9:06:40 PM
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Houellie,

Of course, the object of your articulate buffoonery is, no doubt, to rile us, however, it's more like we're bemused by the class clown who never grew up, who persists with the erroneous notion that he is scintillatingly entertaining, witty and clever.
It's like engaging with a perpetual schoolboy who believes the behaviour that impressed his pimply mates still cuts it - well it does with the likes of Yabby, but that's understandable.
In fact, I've always given you the benefit of the doubt for your style on OLO, even chucked a bit of praise your way...but the reality is that any grown-up who thinks it's superlative to pepper his posts with hahaha's every ten lines should really be contributing to a teen skateboarding mag...just the place for you Houellie. I'm sure you'll impress them there.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 1 August 2011 9:48:52 PM
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Actually Lexi, evolutionary psychology is pretty good at predicting
what you will donate. Enough to trigger the feel good endorphins
which come into play with altruism, but not enough to interfere
with your cushy lifestyle. Besides, we haven't heard of you
selling the house or cancelling the holiday.

I would never donate to Unicef. That will only perpetuate the Africa
problem, not work towards a solution. Their US CEO earns around
450K$ dollars a year, even senior Australian admin staff earn
200k$ a year, far more then I earn. So they really don't need my
money in the first place.

What I have given in the past has gone to small organisations to protect
the great apes in Africa. They are down to their last few thousand
as the ever growing human population eats the last of them. Silly
me thinks that they deserve a spot on this planet too, not just
wall to wall humans. These groups need funds far more then the UN.

The only fund that I would donate to for African human aid, would be
one which provides family planning services for women who can't
otherwise afford them.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 1 August 2011 10:09:29 PM
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Dear Yabby,

My life style is far from "cushy."
When you have a young family, children,
elderly family members that require
high care (24/7). It not only keeps you
employed, takes its toll physically,
and financially as well. As for cancelling
a holiday? Done that too many times to count.

However I am delighted to hear that you have
donated to the Great Apes of Africa funds.
The Great Apes were being wiped out by hunting,
commercial trade in their meat and by the spread
of diseases such as the Ebola virus. As I wrote
on my "Species Extinction," thread - I've been
a financial supporter of IFAW (International Fund For
Animal Welfare) for many years. Over the years their
campaigns have grown to embrace the Great Apes, Elephants,
Rhinos, Bears, Tigers, Whales and many other animals
under threat.

One final thing - if you're really interested in
donating to Family Planning Services for Women in
Third World countries you can contact -
"Medecins Sans Frontieres," (Doctors Without Borders)
at:

http://www.msf.org.au/donate.html

BTW: Our family has been a financial supporter for years.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 12:30:29 AM
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Lexi:"Our family has been a financial supporter for years."

That sounds a lot like "look at me, I'm virtuous" as Houellebecq suggested. Has anybody in your family missed a meal so that some starving African child might get a bite to eat? Thought not. As I said earlier, our children and our lifestyles are far more important to us than the suffering of some other person in some other land. If it wasn't for TV we wouldn't know or care about it and I'm damned sure that if the tables were turned, they would gladly ignore us just as hard.

Then there are all the disadvantaged people here in our own country. There are lots of very poor Aboriginal communities less than a day's drive from your place Lexi. When was the last time you and the family went off to volunteer to assist those people to get somewhere? Perhaps a day or so of looking after kids so Mum gets a chance to have a break? Perhaps a bit of using your degree to assist people to learn proper English? All a bit dirty and smelly for you? And there's people sitting around drunk! The horror!

You're right, you're much better off giving some spare change to a group of people who will at least use a little of it to go to the dirty, nasty places and do something. It would just be too much to expect anyone in your family to get their hands dirty...

As for me, I'll happily spend my money on my own family.
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 7:27:46 AM
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This one's not particularly relevant to the situation in Somalia but if the geography is not important.

http://www.filterpurefilters.org/

I have a US based friend who has a good friend who's working with them at the moment which gives me some confidence that it's legitimate.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 8:39:36 AM
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Wow, so much animosity Poirot.

'who persists with the erroneous notion that he is scintillatingly entertaining, witty and clever.'

I am, to me, and that's what counts. I am here to amuse myself.

'It's like engaging with a perpetual schoolboy who believes the behaviour that impressed his pimply mates still cuts it'

Cuts it with who? I'm not here to impress anyone, I'm here to enjoy myself.

'In fact, I've always given you the benefit of the doubt for your style on OLO, even chucked a bit of praise your way... I'm sure you'll impress them there.'

Oh, I'm supposed to impress you. Presumably so you can chuck some tidbit of praise my way. So that's how OLO works! Ah, what I always suspected. I must look to ingratiate myself with the mighty Poirot!

Hahahahhaa!

This just plays into my whole view of OLO. It's a little pseudo-intellectual club of people trying to impress each other.

PS: If you're talking about behaving like a teenager, all this overblown morose teen angst about the state of the world and environment and 'Big Business' and 'Greedy corporations' and 'neo-cons' SCoA and MIC is decidedly juvenile. Man I grew out of that cliched hobby horse in my 20s. Your one-sided anti-capitalist rantings really lack any kind of mature adult balance.
Posted by Houellebecq, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 8:59:28 AM
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Houellie,

On the contrary, you come here to impress everyone.

You can't see how cliched is your own behaviour. It seems that to you we all represent the teachers you held in such disdain. You honed your technique - your acerbic routine - way back then when you realised you were more intelligent than your mentors.

What pisses me off is that you have one of the best minds on OLO, and yet you employ it almost exclusively to laugh at people. I am not mighty and I appreciate sharp wit as a vehicle for sharing ideas, but when contempt and mockery are your only lines of interaction why is it surprising that you receive a serve of animosity?
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 9:36:54 AM
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Dear Antiseptic,

"What a piece of work, is man?" exclaims Hamlet
in Shakespeare's play. "How noble is reason!
How infinite in faculty! In form, and moving.
how express and admirable! In action, how
like an angel! In apprehension, how like a
god! The beauty of the world! The paragon of
animals! And yet ...what is this quintessence of
dust?"

What are we? Hamlet's question is probably as old
as the unique human capacity for self-awareness,
a capacity that extends perhaps hundreds of
thousands of years back into prehistory.
Modern science can give no simple answer to the question,
for we are an extraordinary complex species -
the most intelligent, resourcesful,
and adaptable that has ever existed
on the planet. Yet today we do know infinitely more
about the human species than we did even a few years ago,
and if nothing else we have learned that many traditional
ideas about "human nature" are hoplessly naive and
misguided.

Therefore for you to make any sort of judgement about me
and my family -
you would have to know something about our social behaviour,
our values, and what kind of people we really are.
All extremely personal information - of which you have no
way of knowing. It is unfortunate that you feel such strong
animosity towards my attempt to do something about the famine
in East Africa. But that's something I can't do anything
about. I can only do what I feel is right.

Cheers.

Dear Poirot,

Sometimes we need what only certain people can provide -
their absence.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 12:19:29 PM
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Lexi, I think you will find that Marie Stopes do a great deal of
good in the third world, for women who can't afford family planning.

But of course they are up against the great powers of the Vatican,
whose lobbyists made sure that George Bush cut off funding to them.
Many clinics in places like Ethiopia had to be closed at the time,
although I gather that some are now reopening. The thing is that
until the first world takes the issue seriously, not much is going
to change.

Obama has changed back to the Clinton policy which did so much
good, but those new tea party senators will make sure that this
is one of the areas where funding is reduced, as they squeeze him
fiscally into a corner. All very sad really.

Its going to take a serious addressing of the problem at the global
level, for action to happen. That will only happen when more and
more people die in famines, our species tends to learn the hard way.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 12:21:09 PM
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Dear Yabby,

Thanks for your civil response.
I agree with you. Political, religious,
and other ideological influences affect
social attitudes concerning population limitations.
And as I stated earlier, family planning is an
essential element in population limitation, but
the strategy is not sufficient in itself.

I read that at the first International Conference
on Population in Belgrade in the late 1960s, the
United States was a lonely voice strongly urging
population control in the interests of the
planetary environment and the future of humanity.
Arrayed on the other side were the communist
countries, Catholic countries, and most of the less
developed nations - all of them arguing that
economic development would solve population problems.

At the most recent conference in Mexico City, the US
was again in isolation - this time arguing against
virtually the rest of the world, that "population
growth was a neutral phenomenon" whose problems can
be solved by capitalism. Apparently the reason for
the American change of position lay in domestic politics.
The government wanted to appease the powerful
right-to-life movement, which is hostile to population
control because in some countries it may involve
abortion. Only Chile, Costa Rica, and the Vatican
shared the administration's position - a position
that profoundly embarrassed most American demographers.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 12:44:18 PM
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Lexi, I repeat, as I have done elsewhere, I don't feel any animosity toward anyone. I do dislike pretension, however and I'm afraid I find you frequently exhibit a streak of that. I get the feeling that if we met we'd like each other immediately and dislike each other within half an hour.

My only purpose in this thread and in a number of others is to provide a countervailing view; perhaps one that you tend to avoid considering for reasons of your own particular squeamishness, but one that is nonetheless valid.

You exist because a long line of your ancestors made survival of them and theirs the highest priority. It's only because we live in fat times in Australia that a librarian has enough spare cash to give some away to people in other countries instead of scrimping to do the best for her own children. By all means do as you will, but don't try to tell me to do the same. My family still means more to me than someone else's.
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 12:49:41 PM
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Lexi, as a good Catholic, perhaps you can give Carindal Pell
a ring and tell him to start flogging off some of the huge amount
of property that the church owns in Australia. The church
carries a huge amount of blame as a major cause of the starving
babies, let them put their money where their mouth is.

Peoples legacies leaving property to the church, has been a
great money spinner for them. Some think they can buy the
alleged ticket to heaven, I guess.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 2:25:26 PM
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Houellebecq - nice to see you posting again... did you have a good holiday?

Anyone who has managed to either grow grey hair or possibly loce it will remember Bob Geldof

Dear old Bob, one time lead singer with the Boomtown Rats. These days probably working as a poster boy for skin diseases

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_Aid that was back in 1985... 26 years ago - cripes and I was nearing middle aged then

2005 "Make Poverty History"... yeah, another Irish idiot, Bono strutted his pompous stuff for that one

Same old story.... or maybe same old song

Guess what....

In between fighting and murdering one another, either by design or rape women still have children and

children still starve in the Horn of Africa.

And then when the lucky few get come to Australia they have problems fitting in....

maybe it is in the genes

because it seems to me... regardless the amount of welfare aid which is thrown at it.... the "Starving Kids of Africa" problem remains

I wonder which Band will be next to seek self promotion on the bones of dead kids ?
Posted by Col Rouge, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 2:34:38 PM
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Dear Antiseptic,

If you don't feel animosity towards anyone -
why do you posts things like -

1) Has anybody in your family missed a meal
so that some starving African child might
get a bite to eat? Thought not.

2) When was the last time you and your family went off
to volunteer to assist these people to get somewhere?

3) ...All a bit dirty and small for you?
And there's people sitting around drunk? The Horror!

4) You're right, you're much better off giving some
spare change to a group of people who will at least
use a little of it than to go to the dirty, nasty
places and do something...It would just be too much
to expect anyone in your family to get their hands
dirty...

If that's not animosity then you must think a lower
standard of ethics or personal behaviour is
acceptable in cyberspace because surely you don't
communicate with people in this manner normally.

As for my "frequently exhibiting streaks of pretension...?"
That's your assumption - people who know me well would
say that you're showing bias here.

I should hope that your family means the world to you.
Mine means the world to me. But that doesn't mean that
we can't make room for others who are less fortunate than
ourselves.

As for our meeting and liking each other.
I wouldn't be at all surprised. There's very few people
that I dislike.

Cheers.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 3:15:04 PM
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Lexi:"why do you posts things like"

Because they express what I feel very simply and clearly. What on earth would you think was the reason?

And yes, there is room for others in our lives, but it's very much easier when those others are on the other side of the world and someone else has to do the dirty stuff. I note you didn't actually answer my question vis a vis the local Aboriginal communities...
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 4:18:03 PM
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Dear Yabby,

I'm afraid that I'm not a very good Catholic at all.
To me the sum of the actions of Cardinal Pell are
the antithesis of Jesus. I don't think that I'm
in any position to influence those ruthless and
powerful men who currently run the Church.

Dear Col,

Thank You for your input into this thread.
I was interested in your take on Bono.
Tor Hundloe in his book, "From Buddha to Bono:
Seeking Sustainability," had this to say on the
subject:

"Today we are familiar with the rock
concert-for-peace, or concert against poverty.
Bono is a crusader for a better world. The genesis
for using popularity as a pop star for the common
good was the 1968 Broadway for Peace event which
featured major Hollywood stars such as Harry Belafonte,
Barbara Streisand, Leonard Bernstein, Paul Newman and
Joanne Woodward. The year before there had been the
Monterey music festival - music, flower power, peace
and love (there and everything). In 1969 - Woodstock.

Today we are a wee bit sceptical when the next Hollywood
celebrity rushes to Africa - with an entourage of cameramen
and publicists in tow - to illustrate their humanity and
environmental consciousness. Before Angelina and Madonna,
well before - there was Robert Redford. He talked and
walked green before the rest. This is not to argue that
Bob Geldof, and then Bono, were late-comers. Twenty-odd
years of using popular music, and the vanity of politicians
to be connected (photographed) with humans who are genuinely
admired, deserves recognition.

Had Bono been nothing more than a rock star and mindlessly
idle when not performing he would not have dragged the
politicians into his camp. He studied, he read, he talked to
good development economists. He has become far more
knowledgeable of poverty and the environment than the world
leaders who have come to count on him."
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 8:11:29 PM
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/jun/25/u2-bono-tax-protest-glastonbury

Lexi, Bono might want a better world as you claim, but he seemingly
does not want to pay for it. Ah, the hypocrites in this world,
do as I say, not as I do
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 8:59:11 PM
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Underbelly (wink-wink),

Not much happening on the threads this morning so I thought I would take the time to reply a little more fulsomely to your post to me on page 14.

Now even though you whipped into the phone box for a quick change of username, it's obvious to me who you are.(a wave to Kerryane) You display a singular style (as do we all) and unless you can manage to find a way to mask it, all the alternative names in the world ain't gonna render it a successful ruse.

I see you pulled the same stunt on Belly's "Greens Popular?" thread - and it appears you've even chosen this sock puppet's name as a foil to his. No wonder you're always surmising that some posters are in fact other posters under another name - it's your own standard operating procedure.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 3 August 2011 9:51:52 AM
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Poirot,

Actually I am sickened. Underbelly most certainly is NOT Kerry!. Belly's low act and running to GY with his lies is typical of alp mentality.
I got banned over a silly joke I was having with Yabby a month ago.
Somebody was saying it was suggested WA had legal prostitution houses established. With tongue in cheek knowing full well Yabby would take it as a joke I said"" quote- Oh Good Yabby & his friends can get into a cleaner industry:) Now it was honestly just a joke. The things that has been said about me on that other thread & you Poirot just like Anti & belly rushing in to get a person banned who has done nothing shows your utter lack of class imop.
So if I got banned for having a joke with Yabby the question must be asked why you anti have been allowed to defame a person that is not even on this forum. You named the founder of two organizations AND you named that person as well. I got banned on the basis Yabby was not here to defend himself. Huh what a joke.
Either way imop it wasn't Yabby who got me banned over the WA industry joke. We may not see eye to eye but i dont think hes quite that childish or low- but I sure reckon i know who is.

Sorry Lexi go back to your thread and BTW yes what about the aboriginals- good point.
Posted by Kerryanne, Wednesday, 3 August 2011 10:43:58 AM
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Dear Yabby,

My apologies for not getting back to you sooner - however
I'd used up all of my posts. Now back to Bono - he pays
millions and millions of dollars in tax. I'm not going to
go into his reasons for taking the publishing rights
of his music to the Netherlands - that's not the issue here.
However what is "clear and simple" is that Bono has been
pushing world leaders towards sustainability. He has
undertaken in addressing one of the most pressing sustainability
problems - the plight of the one-third of humanity living
in poverty.

Poverty demands of people that the only thing that counts is
the next meal. Local environments are denuded. Fish, birds,
anything that moves is the target for the next feed:
forests are stripped for their fuel, reef's for their limestone.

Poverty demands, that families are large, as not every child
born is going to sustain his or her life for long. Each child is
a pair of hands to put to work drawing water from distant wells,
weeding miniscule vegetable plots and, if adulthood is
reached, to be sent to the city to find work where the bulk of a
subsistence wage can be sent home.

If very lucky, this son or daughter will find work in a distant
foreign land (where he or she will not necessarily be welcomed) and
larger sums of money will be repatriated.

We can applaud Bono, but even he with all the celebrity appeal that
goes with having only one name cannot change the world by himself.
We, you and I, need to take up the challenge. As Tor Hundloe tells us
in his book, "Poverty is only one of the inter-related environmental
sustainability problems we face in the 21st century."

Bono has broken the ground, our world leaders hopefully will start
taking notice of the vast army of experts who are willing and able
to guide us through the coming difficult years. As Hundloe tells us,
a better world is possible. It will take effort. It will be difficult.
But it will be worth it.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 3 August 2011 10:46:26 AM
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Dear Kerryanne,

You ask about the Aborigines?
It's not a good point at all.
Go back and re-read the post of
that particular poster - and then
put your hand on your heart and
tell me why I should respond to him at all.
I'd be happy to discuss the topic with you
at any time, perhaps you could start
your own thread on the topicn if the
subject is of interest to you,however, when
someone uses insults "clearly and simply,"
and doesn't feel that there's anything wrong
with their style of posting when pulled up on it -
there's nothing more to be said. It's "clear
and simple," and we all get it.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 3 August 2011 10:56:06 AM
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Kerryanne,

As you've probably read on the other thread, I apologised - and that simply rests on your denial, not on a change of opinion of my part.

If my assertion is wrong then I'm the one with egg on my face - and in that case, you've got nothing to worry about.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 3 August 2011 11:10:54 AM
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*Poverty demands, that families are large, as not every child
born is going to sustain his or her life for long.*

Lexi, that is in fact a myth. For when organisations like
Marie Stopes offer their services in the third world,
women rush to use them. Millions of women in the third
world too, die from knitting needle etc abortions.
These women don't do these things because they want
larger families.

Fact is that if you and hubby lived in the third world
on a dollar or two a day, you would still have sex.
If you could not afford family planning, you too would
have a large family, but just keep popping them out.

My continuing point is that third world women should
be given a choice, just as Western women have. For
the West to fund it, would do far more to avert long
term hunger and famines, then our bandaid solutions of
rushing out food when the rains fail. Avert the
problem before it arises, not when its all too late.

Bono is still clearly dodging lots of tax btw.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 3 August 2011 11:16:40 AM
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Dear Yabby,

No one is disagreeing with the need of family planning.
BTW - the Stopes Clinics are excellent.
but they're not enough on they're own due to the cultures
and ideologies involved - which is the point being made.
And you need to weigh up Bono's achievements for the poor
on the scales,
alongside his other actions, and see how it balances out.
See the entire picture - and not only one aspect.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 3 August 2011 11:50:45 AM
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Lexi,
That is my fault Lexi and I dont blame you for pulling me up on it either- so sorry. I just re- read my post which I made in a rush and I certainty was not implying you should respond to that rude comment.

No No, indeed what I meant was -- ( and I know you opened this thread with best of intentions.- I meant in view of some peoples comments yes what about the aboriginals. Your correct I or you should start a thread on that topic. Its something I am passionate about tbo

I would simply like to say to you that I know you opened this thread with the best of intentions for the people in Africa.I see it over and over again in life on everyday events & yes in forums where people get shot down for good intentions.

There is a peace about your threads ( normally) I enjoy. I pick up that your a deeply spiritual person even if you dont know that.

( I am not referring to the catholic church either)

We were we having a lovely time chatting away about solving the problems in Africa with sourcing plant crops & spokes persons to get container loads of clothes & packaged foods in.

My point is most Aussies do what they can - but then in comes somebody saying- ah all you westerners and whites should give everything to us. To me that makes me want to give zip! but of course I know its not the people in Africa's fault.

imop When the west stops giving the Churches aids will stop helping and look for another business. Thats when real people can get in and help- until then.

Sorry for the misunderstand T/C
Posted by Kerryanne, Wednesday, 3 August 2011 12:43:55 PM
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Poirot,

I apologize if you said sorry. I didnt read it and tbo. I only looked at Lexis comment to me. Its ok Poirot I know how belly belly aches a dreams up stuff. If it clears the air for you I can tell you my sister was staying hence she only posted a few times. She joined on her lap top after an opp on her arm ( which is why she was here in the first place). Apparently she used my desk top while i was feeding my horses and messages.
Even had I have seen her I would not have known two people can not be members of a forum just because the same computer is used. eg: if you have five kids( which I dont ) but - how do you tell only one child can be a member of something.
Yes we are alike but i dont see her often & she thought she was helping & cross at the person comment made by belly. Its the truth I am very old fashioned and take offense at cheap talk.
Shes actually quite upset she caused a problem. Shes has left at any rate yesterday evening. Anti, if you open a thread on aboriginals it is a topic i am deeply passionate about.
Sorry Lexi for the interruption to your thread.

That aid center giving 100% ( they say) I donated to.

However i know it wont make a lick of difference to the real problem but thanks for being you to care.

Kerry
Posted by Kerryanne, Wednesday, 3 August 2011 1:04:09 PM
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http://www.mariestopes.org.au/how-we-help/where-we-work/our-global-partnership-programs

Lexi, Marie Stopes helped over 7 million people in 40 countries
last year. The only thing that restricts them is funding.

There is still a huge unmet need out there, despite all your claims
about culture etc. All this is totally lost on our politicians,
who don't even raise it as an issue or help to fund it.

We'll just focus on what works well on TV, like Bono, like
Climate Change and we'll just push the elephant in the room
under the carpet.

All I'm doing is lifting the carpet and trying to point out
the reality.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 3 August 2011 2:25:17 PM
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Dear Kerryanne,

Thanks for always being so positive.
And from seeing things from the other
person's point of view - and showing
understanding and compassion. I think
starting a thread about our First Australians
would be a good idea.

Many people know a great deal about Australia's
one saint - Blessed Mary MacKillop. I wonder how
many people know anything about a Wiradjuri woman
from Cowra in central-western New South Wales,
Colleen Shirley Smith, known to everyone as "Mum Shirl?"

Over the years, Mum Shirl influenced Father Ted Kennedy
at Saint Vincent's parish in Sydney's REdfern, when he
turned the resources of the church over to caring for
dispossessed urban Aborigines. Extremely well-read in
theology and literature, Ted Kennedy described Mum Shirl
at her funeral in 1998 in Saint Mary's Basilica as
"The greatest theologian I have ever known." She had
taught Kennedy to how to fight for justice. Mum Shirl
didn't suffer fools gladly, and quickly brought the mighty
and righteous down from their thrones, often with some
well-placed four-letter-words. Before joining Redfern parish,
Mum Shirl had been a prison visitor for years and she
had raised as her own more than 60 children who came into
her care. She worked with the Redfern parish to establish
the Aboriginal medical and legal services that now operate
next door to the church. She helped some 6000 people,
ranging from ex-prisoners, children in need, single parents,
alcoholics and young probationers. With no money of her own
she often ran her services on her own sickness benefits.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 3 August 2011 2:53:19 PM
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Dear Yabby,

Keep on lifting that carpet.
You're doing an excellent job
and I for one appreciate it
very much.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 3 August 2011 2:55:32 PM
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It seems to me that this thread has now run
its course. I've got nothing more to add to
this subject. Before I leave however, I'd
like to once again Thank all of you who
came to this thread in good faith, and added
your voice to my appeal. I appreciate
all of your inputs and hopefully we can have
further constructive discussions on other threads.

Cheers.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 3 August 2011 11:48:59 PM
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