I must admit to feeling ashamed of myself when I first read the terrible news about the bomb and multiple shootings by a madman in Norway:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-24/suspect-admits-responsibility/2807758

I immediately thought to myself that the perpetrator would most likely be a Muslim Extremist.
How wrong I was, as it appears to have been committed by a Christian Extremist!

I also imagined that the guy probably stole the guns or bought them on the black market, but no, he had a licence for the guns, and belonged to a gun-club!

Are violent 'extremists' the same the world over, or are they simply mentally unbalanced individuals who take violent action on their mad thoughts?

Is there any way of policing the contents of some of these people's web-sites that obviously showed their potential for violence on a grand scale?

What are everyone else's thoughts on this awful tragedy?

Cheers,
Suze.

It was an awful tragedy that probably couldn't be avoided without turning the nation into a totalitarian state, if then.

As long as we accept the right of people to passionately believe in irrational things, this sort of stuff is inevitable.

I'm glad it wasn't in Brisbane...

What are everyone else's thoughts on this awful tragedy?
suzeonline,
it shows how desperate people get when not being listened to. Very, very sad indeed. What did society do to make someone so frustrated. The cause doesn't obviously lie just with the gunman. How many times has it been said that violent video games desensitise people yet more violent video games are being produced.
In this particular tragedy it appears to have been caused by this;

http://tribune.com.pk/story/216462/norway-police-say-killer-behind-1500-page-anti-islamic-manifesto/

Don't worry Suzeonline, you were not the only one to expect that it
was a moslem terrorist attack.

So did virtually everyone else. I wonder why that was ?
Could it be that moslems have form for terrorist attacks ?

No need to feel guilty, it is moslems and Irish Nationalists who
should feel guilty.
It will take them a couple of generations of good behaviour for them
to live it down.

The media hinted at Al Qaeda and some Qaddafi.I argued then that it did not make sense that Gaddafi would attack a country that is weakening the NATO allaince by pulling out of Libya.Norway also supports the trade boycotts against Israel.I don't think that one man could plan and execute this attack alone.Study the details as they come out.

I am horrified by what he did, but I disagree that he was a madman. He merely acted on the basis of premisses that he believed. However, he did not do it on the basis of authority given by the state, religion, party or other recognised institution. Torquemada, Osama bin Laden, George W. Bush, Lenin, Napoleon, Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan and others have all authorised mass slaughter on one basis or another. I have never heard any of them referred to as a madman. However, I regard all those I have mentioned as no better, humane or reasonable than Anders Breivik. The only difference is that they organised their slaughter on the basis of serving a poitical or religious entity. When a person does it on his own he will be called a madman.

the insanty of a CLAIMED xtian
killing mainly xtian children

clearly isnt what christ meant
..when he said LOVE god..by loving neighbour

those who think jesus came to autherise MURDER
in his name are decieved and decieving

[death cant serve the good god
who gives us all our life]

nor serve the message of the christ
who revealed the living loving good
was knowable by his creation

destruction dont serve god

but WHY is the church SO SILENT....AGAIN*

why put the murders thoughts into the media
sems his max punishment will be 30 years
[plus or minus 3 mths for each murder]

so he will in time be a redneck idol..[sic]

but is the state so innocent?

Olso Police conducted bombing exercise days before attack
just talking about this sort of stuff..'tells' madmen..'its time'

http://theintelhub.com/2011/07/23/norway-terror-attacks-now-being-compared-to-oklahoma-city-bombing-as-evidence-of-false-flag-operation-continues-to-mount/

Anders looks more like an Illuminati-Freemason
adopting the adgenda of the crusaders...who perverted christianity
in the persuit of wealth/power..

[his 'manifesto' in large part was an plagerised/edited version..of that nutter from oklahoma bombing 'issued'..with blacks striuckout...and muslims put in]..

that again manifesto
helped him..support his selective hatred..
just as vile vidio games helped..and the media helped

but lets face it
why hasnt the church
*spoken about their silence

no doudt he also got the..'its time mess-age'
via the suport for palistein rally..at the youth camp
where the shooting occurred..who..had just held a PRO Palestinian Rally the day before!

we know xtian/nutters
support zion's delusions
[who..is not gods own...who dont god give life to]
jesus was about helping not hurting..giving not taking awa

Norway has supported a Palestinian State
in fact norwegen pm had just announced it

If the game plan is to establish tough,law-and-order rightwing governments world-wide..that appear to be protecting the rightwing nutters/hatefull media people

while moving forward..[great slogan?]..
with the long-range goals of the global agenda,
then the people would have to be encouraged to accept such rigid rule....

for their own 'good'..of course

the murdoc media
quickly spead the al quarda stuff
cause that fits their adgenda...

its hard to find truth..in a time of spin
so find ways..of knowing what really happend
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

or at least find out
what really could be happening..
if the church insists on retaining the right to silence

we dont need to forgive
but hate the deed..not the being
who has been set up ..just like the rest of us
by liars with adgendas..and reasons to make war..and kill

Of one thing I am reasonably sure.

There won't be any violent street demonstrations campaigning against the evils of Christianity, as a result of the actions of this "Right-wing Christian Fundamentalist".

Which is, of course, as it should be.

We wouldn't dream of holding an entire religion responsible for the actions of a tiny minority.

Would we?

Dear Pericles,

A slight correction to your statement. There will not be any demonstration against the evils of Christianity in countries that have a mainly Christian population. There may well be in other countries.

Well, no argument from me on this one, Pericles :)

What I'm finding interesting this morning is the avoidance of the "T" word in the MSM to describe the offender. Here's a guy who evidently planted a bomb in government offices, planned and executed mass murder on political targets, all according to a manifesto which details how he means to start a war.

So how is he not a terrorist? Can't blonde, Aryan, Christian types be terrorists? How does this bastard differ from e.g. Timothy McVeigh?

Re assuming it was a Moslem extremist: remember Timothy McVey.

These sorts of actions (could be expanded to include David F's list) basically derive from people's absolute certainty that they are right. I don't think anyone can be certain about anything (well, maybe the law of gravity - not prepared to test that by jumping off a tall building), but especially whether they are right. In fact as a rule of thumb: the more certain you are that you are right, the more likely you are to be wrong.

This is why I like scepticism. I think everyone should be taught /encouraged to be sceptical of their own beliefs. I'm not all that keen on the argument that we have to respect other people's beliefs. I'm even sceptical about scepticism, especially where it is used to justify a belief (eg global warming sceptics).

Dear Suze,

I Googled the Norway massacre and it seems that Anders Behring Breivik had posted on YouTube calling for conservatives to "embrace martyrdom" in a fight against Islam. He called himself, "The crusader," and apparently had plotted the massacre for nine years. He
proclaimed himself as being - against
"multiculturalism" and apparently saw immigration as being anti- Europe and Europeans (sound familiar?). Scares the heck out of me -
especially seeing as all this was posted on the web prior to the act being committed and authorities were not altered. BTW - the bullets he used were ones that exploded inside the victims.

cont'd ...

Reuters referred to this as an "incendiary immigration issue."

What seems to be overlooked is that this killing seems to be the result of a man who got violently caught up in the binary political culture; as his targets were all the Norwegian Labor Party.
So far we've seen a shooting of a Democrats Senator and her supporters in America; and in Australia you have people frothing at the mouth about Liberal/Labor (as opposed to the party THEY vote for) possibly getting in- as if the sky would fall if they ever did.
When those politicians said that "These attacks could happen anywhere" (when they were suspecting Muslims)- they had no idea how right they were. Because I could easily imagine plenty of people getting unhinged and going on a killing rampage with our political culture as it is.

We have a single system,[demonic autocracy]
and in that system..the only question is the price
at which the proletariat..is to be bought and sold,[by the money changers]

the bread and circuses.
just like in rome

""The whole fabric of society will go to wrack
if we really lay hands of reform on our rotten institutions.''

church/state/corperations/selective policing
run by party backdoor men..[and woman trying to out man the men]

From top to bottom the whole system is a fraud,
an illusion where gossip and sport fill the loyalist model
all of us know it,..laborers and capitalists alike,[yet by our silence allow bad to be called good

A police guard had been due to be on the Norwegian island where a gunman massacred at least 86 people but detectives do not know where he was

http://www.iwradio.co.uk/news/world/norway-suspect-confesses-to-twin-attacks-16036361/

One of Rupert Murdoch’s remaining money-grubbing, gutter filling recyclable fish and chip wrappers, the UK “Sun”, was predictably lightning fast with the scoop today,

its headline screaming:
“Al Qaeda’s Massacre, Norway’s 9/11?.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2011/07/24/falling-false-flags-the-norway-massacre/
Oops,sorry about that,chum.

our media is full of police/state
murder and demonic mayhem
and idiolitry...

where the tough guy
dont need follow rules

where might is right
and the loudest voice gets the most hearing

http://www.examiner.com/civil-rights-in-jersey-city/media-blames-al-qaeda-knowing-pro-israeli-extremists-conducted-oslo-attacks

and all of us
are consenting parties to it."
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/in-norway-hatred-is-the-culprit-not-islamin-norway-hatred-was-the-culprit-not-islam/

Norway shooter linked to Michele Bachmann ?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110724100303AAg29Y2

Anders Breivik spent 2 months is Lake Elmo MN last year.
What the heck was he doing in such an unusual location?

There are reports the Norway shooter visited a Christian counseling center in the US state of Minnesota last year called Bachmann & Associates in Lake Elmo.

Was Norway massacre
a reaction to boycott Israel campaign?
http://www.redress.cc/global/gatzmon20110725
Gilad Atzmon highlights Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik's enthusiastic support for Israe... and the sympathy he has received from Israelis and,

in the light of this,asks whether Breivik
might have been a "Sabbath Goy"..responding to the Norwegian Workers Youth League's..to which all of his victims belonged..backing for the boycott Israel campaign.

what about legal drugs?
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25756

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/blog/qrswave/norway-we-will-not-be-naive-watershed-moment

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/you-can-help-make-palestinian-statehood-a-reality-vote-now/

how it..went down.

1...Israel decides the best way to halt Norway's leading of Europe away from Zionist domination..is to stage a terror/attack..to be blamed on Muslims,..in order to put public-pressure
on the government of Norway..to abandon BDS..and support for Palestine.

Why Israel would think anyone will believe
Muslims would attack nations that support them
betrays Israel's presumption..that non-tribe people [goy]..are really stupid,..but that is the subject for another article.

2...Israel's agents in Norway
locate a patsy,..Anders Behring Breivik,
through the documents...website,..run by a heavy pro-Zionist Jew

Breivik has been brainwashed..over most of his adult life..by the constant Muslim-bashing from the Zionist controlled media.

His membership in the Freemasons..allows him to see himself as the spiritual..and political descendant of the Knights Templars.

3...Because of his pro-homosexual views,..which contracts with his otherwise fundamentalist Christian values,..I suspect Anders Behring Breivik is himself gay and deeply conflicted by it.

This is a man
trying to build a new identity for himself
that he can feel good about,..and is hence an ideal candidate..for recruitment by Israel's clandestine services.

4...Anders Behring Breivik
was dressed as a police officer
on the ferry over to the island where he planned to murder the children of Norway's political leaders..whom Anders Behring Breivik was convinced..were not strict enough on Muslims.

Given that there are normally no police on that island,
the uniform..was Breivik's planned means of escape...
who supplied it?

He stood out on the way..to the island
but clearly hoped he would blend in..with the crowd of policemen sure to arrive..WELL after the shooting started.

His handler,..the second suspect who was arrested yesterday,
may have planned as a fallback..to shoot Breivik,..knowing that it would be several days..before the fact that he was not a real police officer to be made public,

during which time the mdeia would pound "Musloms", "Muslims", "Muslims"..*TERROR*
into the ears of the Norwegians..(and the world)

as we saw them start to do..until Breivik's arrest
and identification..as a Christian-Zionist...

recall the flotilla..to gaza?

The deaths in Norway have really shocked me. I have found it hard to think of anything else. I have celebrated Cadel's victory in the Tour (truly inspiring) but it all seems be so completely overshadowed by the tragedy.

I am really quite reluctant to give my impressions as I don't want to be seen lifting this on to a bandwagon but my first thoughts when I found out some of the killer's stated reasons was of a recent news clip of Joe Hockey in Queensland addressing a public meeting on Climate Change. He was asked what was the coalition going to do to stop the people taking up arms against this government? He was a little taken aback and his reply was something along the lines of Australia being a peaceful country but one got the impression he was shocked. 

I'm wondering about how much responsibility our politicians have when fanning incendiary issues like refugees, immigration, climate change etc, well past what the issues warrant, in order to garner votes.

Some of the media are questioning this themselves. Channel 7's Mark Riley asked the PM at the National Press Club what she thought the responsibilities of the media were in the debate?

I'm just trying to find something we might address to protect us from it happening here but perhaps it is easier just to label the causes of the Norway tragedy as inexplicable insanity, the results of which are so deserving of our deep grief and sorrow for the families involved.

If you need to read a good post, go on the Drum and read Waleed's post.
Very interesting.Yes, I think the Norwegian Tragedy is awful, let us hope that these things do not escalate.
NSB

Firstly let's stop the references to Tim McVeigh, he invoked his right to silence and never said a word about the OK city bombing , we don't know what his motivation was.
Secondly, I've read a fair chunk of Breivik's writing over the weekend and he's not mad or "evil" nor does he conform to the other silly labels he's been given like "Nazi" and "Extreme Right".
He's an avowed Anti Fascist, against Racism, pro Gay rights...etc
As noted in earlier posts he's plagiarised a lot of his Manifesto from what can only be termed "Right Wing Zionist" websites.
One of the first rumours that appeared after the attacks was that the gunman was an anonymous writer from the David Horowitz milieu who uses the pen name "Fjordman", this confusion arose from the fact that so much of the killer's writing referred to Horowitz' site "Jihadwatch" and an affiliate "Gates Of Vienna".
Breivik, by all accounts is a classic Political Martyr personality, educated,well liked among his peers,industrious and committed, young but mature in outlook, ironically he's much like a lot of Islamic Jihadis.

However he's wrong, his thinking follows a certain logic but the premise is flawed, his "crusade" was not a "necessary evil" since he had perfectly legal avenues of resistance open to him.
I'm pretty sure that Norway has the same general legal set up for anti discrimination and racial and religious tolerance as other developed countries, so it's perfectly possible to work within those rules and never break them.
What Breivik and those like him don't understand is that Race is real and it matters, if you frame your dissent in a racial way then the law is on your side.
It's true, in Victoria where I live Race is recognised under the law, it doesn't matter what shades of Grey the Anti Whites try to inject into the debate I show legal, non discriminatory dissent as a Racially White Man and the law is on my side.
It's scary to think that "Right wing Anti Fascists" like him are allowed to operate openly in Australia.

@NSB:

Excellent article, which expresses what I was trying to say so much better than I did.

@Lexi:

Yes, yet the MSM are going to great lengths to avoid calling this act of "domestic terrorism" what it is, as Waleed Aly succinctly points out. If it's one of "them" responsible, it's terrorism, bit if it's one of "us" then it's an act of individual madness.

@ csteele:

I too thought of the inflammatory discourse and calls to arms that have been all too prevalent in the MSM and blogosphere of late. Some of these nutters talk relatively openly about weapons buried in poly pipe at the time of Howard's buyback. Without being unduly paranoid, there's not a great gap between some of the rhetoric coming from the lunar Right in Australia and the mad ravings contained in the Norwegian terrorist's manifesto.

With these American-style protest convoys of truckies planned for next month, I think that Australia's police and anti-terrorism forces ought to have a good hard look at some of the hate speech being promulgated in the Australian blogosphere by some of our own homegrown 'Tea Party' wannabes.

Waleed Aly is right, what's the message being sent here?
Right Wing Islamophobes get away with saying things that would land other people in jail.

You can say pretty much whatever you want about Asians, Homosexuals,Aborigines, White People or Muslims if you're a pro Zionist Bible thumper and nothing will happen to you.
Also Ryan Dawson pointed out straight away, hours after the attacks that all Breiviks writing, his blogs, facebook page, videos and manifesto are in near perfect English.
So who are his target audience? People who speak and read English.

A pro Israel Christian would also have a lot to be angry about in Norway at the moment.
The Socialist Party has repeatedly called for Israel to be bombed, the government won't sell Israel any more oil and has recognised Palestinian statehood, even the youth camp which was attacked had held a "Boycott Israel" rally the day before.
One of the first statements I heard from a survivor was"We thought it was a test, to show us what it's like to live in Gaza" and the prime minister saying "They won't bomb us into silence".
I'm pretty sure Jens Stoltenberg wasn't talking about Muslims since at that point Breivik was already in custody.

There's another aspect to this story which Hunter Wallace pointed out on his blog:
http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2011/07/24/the-dark-knight-rises-in-oslo/

What Breivik has done is fused the fantasy world of internet forums and conspiracy theories with his own reality.
This is distinct from someone who is delusional living in a fantasy world, sites like Jihadwatch, Stormfront, Revleft (and the internet generally) allow these elaborate fantasies to be integrated into one's personal life.
So instead of virtual reality or unreality some people, particularly White people live in a sort of augmented reality in which the line between what's real and what's online role playing becomes blurred.
This is not the same as a computer game or a movie because at the other side of an internet post or article is another human being, it's genuine interaction but in a fantasy setting.
I know from experience that if you really want to see the SHTF on one of these V bulletin political forums bringing up this subject of White people and their elaborate fantasy lives is an instant flashpoint.
Exactly the same is true of the Leftist fantasy camp that Breivik targeted, grown ups bringing youths into their world of role playing, which would continue 24/7 on Facebook and Twitter when they got home.
As an old school role playing gamer myself I've seen people go off the edge into the "twilight zone" on more than one occasion, the 80's uproar over "Dungeons and Dragons" was not just a knee jerk reaction by wowsers, kids I knew integrated their fantasy personas into their lives and "lost it".
As Hunter Wallace notes, Breivik is a product of the current "all hope is lost" Zeitgeist of environmental, spiritual and cultural desolation which has now infected the fantasy worlds of Whites all over the world.
There seems to be no place for a healthy White mind anymore, especially not online, you can live out any number of twisted or indeed self righteous fantasies but you can't ever step out of character.

Heartfelt condolences to the parents whose lives and dreams will never be the same.

Fouler than one who carries another cultures hatred to your door, the murderer is from within the house. This creature now wants a platform and a uniform; he wants to make a statement, give him nothing, Islamic extremists are brainwashed committed puppies, he is an anti social sick puppy.

For anyone who hasn't read it - here's the article
by Waleed Aly:

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2808618.html
"This is not a crazed loner, this is a terrorist."

One person is responsible for a HORRENDOUS tragedy. So many people wishing to add the perpetrator to their own agenda. That's sick. We should be thinking of the dead, not the sick twisted realities of one very ill person. I even read a comparison per population against 9/11 suggesting this was comparatively worse. WTF is wrong with us?

Lexi this is what comes to me as I look at his nordic features:

Now Fatherland, Fatherland, show us the sign
Your children have waited to see
The morning will come
When the world is mine
Tomorrow belongs Tomorrow belongs Tomorrow belongs to me. Damned Nazis'.

Again.
Breivik is not a "White Supremacist", I'm so sick of hearing that term, it's an abstract, one of the fantasies of the post modern age to which I refer.
Look, not one person accused of "White Supremacism" can be proven to be such, it's not a provable or demonstrable position like Islamism or fundamentalist Christianity.
There's not a damn bit of difference in the outlook of Waleed Ali or the "Green Teeth" Skinhead, they both have these fantasies about "White Supremacism" and this fantastical "movement" that's lurking at the fringes of society.

I thought Waleed was onto something with the comment on White attitudes toward Islamic terror but I was wrong, he doesn't understand it at all and continues to spout Anti Racist rubbish.
Corporate responsiblity despite innocence is another White fantasy, it's about projecting Whiteness and in particular White guilt onto Muslims.
Why? Because such Whites cannot tell the difference between the races or fathom the reality that different racial traits affect a person's motivation and world view.
Seriously Breivik is the same,he holds ALL Muslims and ALL Leftists to the same standard.
Of course Muslims have no corporate responsibility for terrorism, just like Whites have no corporate responsibility for slavery or colonialism, it's all a consensual delusion of a segment of White society, it's...shock horror..a RACIAL TRAIT.
Ethnocentrism and a group of individuals consenting to a particular fantasy "script" are not the same thing.

Dear SOG,

My favourite is this one:

"Somebody in France wanted to put Voltaire in jail.
Somebody in Franco's Spain sent Lorca, their greatest poet,
to death before a firing squad. Somebody in Germany under
Hitler burned the books, drove Thomas Mann into exile, and
led their Jewish scholars to the gas chamber. Somebody in
Greece long ago gave Socrates the hemlock to drink. Somebody
in the USSR banned Solzhenitsyn and Pasternak. Somebody
at Golgotha erected a cross and somebody drove the nails
into the hands of Christ. Somebody spat on his garments.
NO ONE REMEMBERS THEIR NAMES!"
(Milton Meltzer).

How true Lexi, the multi faceted is slain by the single cell germ, and when a million germs mass there is still only one facet.

The thing that I wonder about with this type of mass killings, is that no one tries to fight back.

Perhaps it's my training in the navy, but I think I'd rather die trying to get the attacker, than semi hide, waiting to be shot. I would think that a few people, acting together, using things like tables to try to deflect bullets to some extent, would be able to overcome a loan gunman.

Having said all that, I of course have no idea how I would react, in the situation, it just seems anything would be better than meekly waiting to be killed.

I sure hope I never find out how I would react, & feel so sorry for those caught up in some ratbags actions.

Thanks for everyone's interesting comments.

I do feel like I understand the issues a little better now.
Waleed's article was very good.

This guy was most definitely a terrorist of the worst degree, and I guess it remains to be seen if he was actually mentally ill or not.

I too hope he is not given a 'pulpit' to preach his message of hatred re labor politics or Islam or whatever his major problem was.

Somehow though, I think the media will make a warped martyr out of this guy, because that makes a better story.

A terrorist is a damn disgusting criminal, no matter what God he/she follows.

Dear Suzeonline,

Governments claim a monopoly on violence. They murder people in many ways. A terrorist is one who goes into business for himself.

Our Australian land was settling by murdering Aborigines. They did it in the service of the monarch. In reading our history I am not aware of anyone who questioned the English right to take land where someone else was living. That doesn't mean that some did not question. I would be interested in learning of such individuals.

Was the settlement of Australia more justified than the crimes of Anders Breivik? He murdered his own countryman. Medals are given for murdering people in other countries.

Dear Hasbeen,

While I did once have three blokes running at me with machetes when I was a teenager (some might say I stood my ground while others that I was rooted to the spot, the truth is somewhere in between) thankfully the nearest I have come to being threatened with a firearm was having a sawn-off shotgun waved under my chin. Very tense for thirty seconds before it was realized it was a case of mistaken identity. The furtherest thing from my mind was attempting to disarm the bloke who was a good deal smaller than me.

All I did was laugh. Absolutely no bravado, just a fear response, although it helped diffuse the situation. When allowed to drive off I had to pull over soon after when the reaction set in. It was all fairly benign compared to what these poor kids went through yet it still puts the hairs up even thinking about it now. What the survivors will carry for the rest of their days is just unimaginable.

I think that without training in those situations the best we might hope for is that we would attempt to help others but who knows.

Dear davidf,

While I note you post is of rather fraught relativism it is something I have been prone to indulge in myself. We will all have a different take on what has happened so I kind of consider this thread as a bit of a therapy session. Therefore as such I'm disinclined to challenge your post.

Dear csteele,

Good to hear from you. I am not quite sure what fraught relativism is. I am in the US at my oldest son's house at the moment and have not been on olo recently.

In countries at war many people can be killed each day, and it's a matter of course. People accept it or don't get overly excited about it.

What has happened in Norway is a horror, but is it any more horrible than what is happening in other parts of the wars where governments are the agents of death?

suzeonline

I am starting - or setting up a Memorial Site. It will take a day. When its ready I will post it here- or we can start a new thread and ask everybody to send their messages from the people of Australia.

Do you want to take it from there? As this is your thread I thought it would be polite to ask.

Kerry

Dear David,
I would hope that both the Current Australian society, and indeed Norway's society, have matured and become less violent than the days of Australian occupation by European 'settlers'.

Let's not forget that many of our ancestors came to Australia by force...they were sent here as convicts.

I certainly don't see the Norway tragedy as in any way similar to that earlier time in Australia's history, or indeed in Norway's history.

It was also not as a result of any war as such, except in that violent individual's mind maybe.
We cannot accept that the killer did what he did because he felt his country was being 'taken over'.

If we did accept that action for that reason, then almost everyone in the world would also have reason for going back to their country of origin, or the country their ancestors came from and killing all and sundry for taking over their land sometime in our human history!

Dear Suzeonline,

I think most people in Australia's past were peaceful. Only a minority were involved in the violence. Now, like most other democracies we export violence. Since we don't need force to keep our own people under control we are free to export the violent ones to other countries to perform heroic deeds of violence.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=9631 contains my essay on the subject.

I see the Norway tragedy as similar to that earlier time in Australia's history and in Norway's history. Breivik is in the tradition of the Norse berserker.

Breivik obviously regards himself as a heroic figure, and in a sense he is. He had strong convictions and formed and carried out a very daring plan without consideration for his own future. Had he been a member of the Resistance under occupation and done something similar he would be hailed as a hero. He expects to get recognition for his heroism in 60 years time.

You wrote: It was also not as a result of any war as such, except in that violent individual's mind maybe. We cannot accept that the killer did what he did because he felt his country was being 'taken over'.

I accept that Breivik felt his country was being 'taken over.' I think what he did was vile and atrocious. However, we fail to understand it if we do not recognise its relationship to similar acts which have been accepted.

White guilt, White guilt, White guilt.

"Australia was founded on killing Aboriginals".
Errr...actually it was founded as a penal colony ,the early missions into the interior were of a scientific nature but always with the commercial exploitation of the continent in mind.
Thousands of White people also died unnecessarily to put us where we are today, no tinge of regret over their passing?

Nobody feels guilty about the 41 Norwegian women raped by African and Arabic immigrants in Oslo last year, do they?
What about the 15 year old girl raped by two Africans in the mall in Parramatta last week, she's alleging passers by ignored her cries for help? Anyone feel guilty about that?

The very first line of this thread admits guilt over assumptions about the race of the killer, even though the first reports on the day explicitly stated that an Islamic group had claimed responsibility.
So why feel guilty about being misled?
If people are giving you incorrect information how is it your fault?

I repeat, just like egalitarianism corporate responsibility is a White fantasy, White people act as individuals but believe in universalism, it's a racial trait, different Races have different psychological traits.

jay...note '*'

quote..""Australia was 'founded*on' killing Aboriginals".
Errr...actually it was 'founded*as' a penal colony""

mate as/on
is two different things

""the early missions into the interior..were of a scientific nature""

yes that was the cover
joseph banks was trained to kill
[using smallbox virus..ie the most cowardly form of war]
bio-logical war teqnique..he was taught..in new foundland

when he returned he was the prime mover..
in declaring the great south lands..empty lands..[terra nulious]

your right..""but always with the commercial exploitation
of the continent in mind.""

using slaves for the landed gentry
people jailed for simple theft like stealing bread or a hankey
[ie lower class slobs..excl;uded from their own traditional lands..by lords and fools..who forbad the hungry/poor to even catch a fish in THEIR streams

they still hold their titles today
much of the land outside towns...is still excluded from ANY change

""Thousands of White people also died unnecessarily to put us where we are today,no tinge of regret over their passing?""

yes sure..POOR people
cannon fodder...landless peons..homeless peons
the same game..still going down today
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25754

half casts..just white enough..but definativly poor
or labled criminal by statute[civil law]..not criminal law
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G96TY5JsV-s&feature=youtu.be

here in this page we got a nutter
killing kids...killing by party line
notable..in the main the current labour elites

so he was acting..for liberal elites[most definitivly white]
not just by definition..or casual mention..or simply saying it was so

""41 Norwegian women raped by African and Arabic immigrants in Oslo last year,""

yeah i guess thats a good reason for killing KIDS
white kids

mate think about what your saying

is rape equal to murder
[and dont be getting high and mighty about that..

both are bad
but one kills you..
by a liberal white nutter..for ever]

are we talking about convictions or charges or complaintrs of rape
[dont bother rep-lying..cause THATS NOT THIS TOPIC]

DONT MAKE EXCUSES
here was a white nut
who thinks its ok to save whites by killing white kids

doing so called..black acts..
[even the language used is racist]

continues

""the first reports on the day explicitly stated that an Islamic group had claimed responsibility."""

yes a FRONT GROUP
that later redacted*
http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/islamic-extremist-claims-responsibility-for-oslo-bombing-group-retracts/

fake al-cia-rda
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fakealqaeda.php

you read the documents
[thanks to zionists]..lol

Document.no is run by Hans Rustad,
who is Jewish and a pro-Zionist.
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/blog/joeblow/oslo-bomber-norwegian-freemason-and-super-zionist

His blog promotes hate of Muslims
and supports restriction on Norwegian immigration of Muslims.
its a sad mossad joke
it began..a few days ago
ended in mass murder

it began with this
http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/abbas-to-meet-norwegian-foreign-minister/
Palestinian leader President Mahmoud Abbas is in Norway,LAST Monday, for a working lunch with FM Jonas Gahr Støre..to discuss the peace process and the current situation in Palestine

next

http://english.ruvr.ru/2011/07/19/53408557.html
Norway to support Palestinians – Norwegian FM

Norway will support Palestinians
who are set to press for recognition of the independence of their state by the United Nations,..says the Norwegian Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre...

next we had a youth rally
in support of a free palistein
http://tinyurl.com/3zhsj4w

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2011/07/youthcamp-killer-may-have-anti-palestine-motive.html

the murders own words
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.document.no%2Fanders-behring-breivik%2F

of course the usual al quarda propaganda[lies]

http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/islamic-extremist-claims-responsibility-for-oslo-bombing-group-retracts/
Helpers of the Global Jihad [read mossad]

have since issued a retraction
of their earlier statement claiming
that they* caused the bombing in central Oslo.

Oslo bomber is a Norwegian Freemason and a super ZIONIST!
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/blog/joeblow/oslo-bomber-norwegian-freemason-and-super-zionist

He was part of the Jewish anti-Muslim movement
in Europe by way of the Fjordman Organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjordman

Quote:
Fjordman is an anonymous Norwegian blogger.
He writes articles critical of Islam and
he regards Muslim immigration as posing
a threat to Western civilization.
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2575

fake?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fakealqaeda.php
other flash backs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer_affair

mossad fake blogging army
http://beforeitsnews.com/story/850/298/Israel_Hires_Internet_Soldiers_to_Penetrate_American_Forums,_Chatrooms.html

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/07/analyzing-oslo-attacks-part-two-if-it.html

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/07/23/norwegian-terror-when-in-doubt-blame-the-muslims/

http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/07/is-false-flag-terror-card-getting.html

http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/yet-another-program-on-what-do-white-jewish-think-tankers-in-d-c-think-the-u-s-should-do-about-iran/

recall christ church
seems a mossad agen[with multiple pasports
was found in a crushed car]
no link..but

more FROM..
the same old jokers

http://www.bobtuskin.com/2011/07/23/israel-urged-to-stop-faking-foreign-passports/
http://www.jeff-goodall.com/?p=5403
two killers
http://en.rian.ru/world/20110723/165350450.html

http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=15810
http://bullionbullscanada.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=21642:economic-rape-of-europe-nearly-complete-part-i&catid=45:international-commentary&Itemid=133

http://www.intifada-palestine.com/2011/07/israel-shamir-why-palestine-is-important-2/
http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/the-omnipotence-of-al-qaeda-an?xg_source=activity
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=15819

looks like an insiders job
http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2011/07/norway-attacks-suspect-anders-breivik.html

ripe for exploitation
http://yayacanada.blogspot.com/2011/07/norway-tragedy-already-exploited-by.html

just..like
911 practice pr/actice pr/act-ice
http://theintelhub.com/2011/07/23/norway-terror-attacks-now-being-compared-to-oklahoma-city-bombing-as-evidence-of-false-flag-operation-continues-to-mount/

yeah i know
you dont read links

but see the joke
http://www.bobtuskin.com/2011/07/23/no-normalisation-unless-israel-apologises-erdogan/

So why feel guilty about being misled?

If people are giving you incorrect
information how is it your fault?

im pretty much over the topic
am glad he didnt get his publicity
would hope that we boycott the topic alltogether
cause it just give aid and destraction to some really insane people

here is this nutters OWN words
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2011/07/23/anders-breivik-norwegian-terror-suspect-admirer-of-israel-avigdor-lieberman/

So let us fight together with Israel,
with our Zionist brothers against all anti-Zionists,
against all cultural Marxists/multiculturalists" -- Anders Breivik, from his Manifesto

its not funny at all
http://morallowground.com/2011/07/23/fox-news-host-laura-ingraham-blames-norwegian-terror-attacks-on-muslims-links-story-to-ground-zero-islamic-center/

this link reveals much truth
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

like this iranian joke
[seems mossad hit the wrong iranian]
http://islamist.com/p361956-israel-mossad-shoots-wrong-iran-nuke.cfm

first this
The semi-official ISNA news agency
identified the victim as Darioush Rezaei,
a 35-year-old physics professor involved in Iran’s nuclear program,

BUT THAT WAS A LIE...joke?
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fgw-iran-nuclear-scientist-20110723,0,5449870.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fnews%2Fnationworld%2Fworld+%28L.A.+Times+-+World+News%29

but here is another
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/israel_staged_1976_hijacking.html

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=no&tl=en&u=http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4073714.ece

the one thiong i really want to read
is a translation of the kibngs speach
the bit i heard sounded very forgiving

the last thing we need is more witch hunts
or more excuses for nutter's to serve rightwing zionistic whitist neo natzie adgenda's[they allready stole back the 5 th reiche]

have the biggest prison camops in the world
own too much of the reigns of power...
need to wake up

to the fact
we are all chldren..of the one god
muder cannot honour the only life GIVER
no death serves the good god sustaining EVERY living thing..our very life

Dear Suze,

For you and anyone else who's interested - this is just to let
you know that Nick Martin, Labor's National Assistant Secretary has written a very good message - and if you'd like to send the people
of Norway a message of support and sympathy you can do so at the
following website:

http://alexwhite.org/2011/07/we-are-all-arbeiderpartiet-members/

I've already done it.

Thanks Lexi, I have left my message as well.

Let's hope that acts like this mass murder don't feature regularly in our world, but sometimes I do fear for the future :(

Suze.

One wonders if comments made by a Shock Jock, "That Julia Gillard should be shoved in a sack and dumped in the ocean", is the type of thing that triggers the tragedy that has occurred in Norway. At least, these 'know it all' bags of ego should be charged with Sedition. There are some brainless people out there who hang on every word that these Shock Jocks utter, and often this plants the seed for some social tragedy to occur.
NSB
PS Lexi, thanks for the condolence link, have added my bit.

Watching QUANDA a month or so ago, there was on the panel, a
lovely, intelligent Indigenous Australian. She said many insightful things, and the one thing that springs to mind is this comment:
We, in Australia are all of us, descended from Boat People, and if we cut our skin, we all have red blood".
What makes we White European folk think that we are so superior? I migrated from UK as a child, with my folks to seek a better life, we were lucky to find it. So, if I was made welcome by Australians from many cultures, why do we find it so hard to accept those from Eastern Cultures? (no, I am not all warm and fuzzy), and I don't expect any reply posts which may start a heated argument.
NSB
PS Sorry, I didn't mean to go off topic.

Is there anyway that someone could have stopped the murderer on the island?
Where were the police?

NSB.
"We" obviously don't find it hard to accept Eastern cultures otherwise there wouldn't be any Easterners living in Europe would there?
Again with the allegations of "White supremacism".
So you're asking if this talking point, "White supremacism" is a really a unique projection of Whiteness?
Let's assume that it is.
By that logic Egalitarianism is also a projection of Whiteness since it's something that's unique to White people.

But of course we know that nobody with all his marbles walks about saying "I'm proud to be a White supremacist!".
On the other hand a large percentage of White people do walk around saying "I believe in egalitarianism!".
It's like the old anti War groups like "America First" which sprang up in the early 1940's to oppose U.S involvement in the European war.
They were accused of being Nazi sympathisers as well all sorts of other things and rigorously persecuted by the FBI.
The thing is though none of them would have been caught dead spying for Germany, marching under a Swastika banner or wearing a home made Brown Shirt.
Contrast that with the Anti communist HUAC investigations, every person hauled before the tribunal and accused of communism was actually a Communist, they wore Red stars and marched under the Hammer and Sickle, a good few of them were later revealed to have been real Soviet agents on the Kremlin's payroll.
I digress but you get the point.
The accusation of "White supremacist" is thrown at Breivik in particular and White people in general with no proof at all.
All the people Breivik has accused of supporting multiculturalism and the dilution of the european nations actually support multiculturalism and the dilution of Europe's nations, they're open about it, they're proud of it...they are out on the streets shouting about it.

Dear Suze, Noisy, Is Mise,

I've just come across a website that chilled me to the bone.
Especially its implications for us in Australia:

http://newmatilda.com/2011/07/25/ends-political-incorrectness

The reference of "increasingly toxic political cultural -
plagued by incivility and extremist rhetoric," rings true.
Very close to home - in our current political scene.
And who knows how it can affect the weak-minded and easily
influenced?

NSB.
Believe it or not I was mulling the "We all bleed red" idea as I was driving home for lunch just now.
Now bear in mind that I'm only talking about White people here, I know race is a sensitive issue but if anything I have more in common with non Whites in that I am able to speak about "Racial housekeeping" matters without flinching.
It leads into my earlier point the fact that a lot of White people are unable to distinguish between the races.
It's hard to describe in short posts but look at the way White people are with animals, ever heard a White person say "My dogs are my children" or "My Llama is one of the family".
Now don't take this the wrong way, I'm not disrespecting people of other races but what White people are doing is, not so much anthropomorphy but again, projecting Whiteness onto other life forms to bring them into their fantasy world, their pets are just "Like Them". an African child is just like a White child ("What if it was your kid?".
Yeah all humans bleed Red, but so do Cats, Whales, Horses and Kangaroos, and you can get upset about this but it's a fact that due t o their propensity to fantasise many White people are unable to make the distinction between the "rights" of one group of organisms and another. I personally know people who are equally passionate in their charity for City Mission and suport for Sea Shepherd, to them the group interests of "The poor" and "Cetacians" have equal weight.
I don't mean to be cruel but when I look at an African Child I see an African child, when I see a Dolphin or a dog I see a Dolphin or a Dog, I don't see anything that's "Just like me".
From talking to non White and non Europeans I know that this fantasy world of Egalitarianism and it's quite bizarre extension into non human realms is uniquely a White psychological trait.

One Under God.
I can't read that wall of text, life's too short.
I've skimmed it and we seem to agree on a lot of points, yet Whites are still taught to judge themselves by the actions of a few criminals and thieves.
The White Guilt has to stop, there's no good reason to teach little White kids that their ancestors we illegal immigrants, thieves and murderers.
Only White kids are targeted in this way so it's quite clear that Anti Racism and White guilt are just a cover anti White motives.
You wouldn't teach Aboriginal kids that their great grandfathers were rapists, drunks and thieves even if it was the truth, you'd spare them the shame, guilt and humiliation.
Let sleeping dogs lie...except the curs who've actually bitten someone, everyone should be aware of the mad dogs so no one else gets bitten in the future.

If you find that scary, Lexi, then I recommend that you stay away from the full "manifesto" that Breivik spent nine years of his miserable existence putting together.

Much of it reads like a Boaz contribution to this Forum. For those who remember him in his various guises, Boaz's posts were full of words like Islamisation, "dhimmitude" and "jizya".

Here's a short extract from Norway's mass murderer's literary legacy:

"Multiculturalism (cultural Marxism/political correctness), as you might know, is the root cause of the ongoing Islamisation of Europe which has resulted in the ongoing Islamic colonisation of Europe through demographic warfare (facilitated by our own leaders). This compendium presents the solutions and explains exactly what is required of each and every one of us in the coming decades. Everyone can and should contribute in one way or the other; it‘s just a matter of will.

Time is of the essence. We have only a few decades to consolidate a sufficient level of resistance before our major cities are completely demographically overwhelmed by Muslims. Ensuring the successful distribution of this compendium to as many Europeans as humanly possible will significantly contribute to our success. It may be the only way to avoid our present and future dhimmitude (enslavement) under Islamic majority rule in our own countries."

Sound familiar?

It serves to show how thin is the line between talking about it, and "doing something about it."

Dear Pericles,

Thanks for that. It is frightening, especially when one had
always assumed that it could never happen in this country. That
Australians were far too easy going and tolerant as a nation.
Brings one back to reality with a thud.

On a lighter note - I saw a large poster with the words -
"The Myth of White Superiority - Shattered Forever."
Above it was a picture of George W. Bush.

Dear Lexi,

Possibly one of the national myths of the people of any country is to see themselves as what they would like to be - not what they are. The Australian self-characterisation is that of a free-spirited larrikin. I have lived in Europe, the US and Australia. From my observations Australians have way too much respect for authority - more than any country I've known.

thanks for your sincerity and passion jay
i will try to be honest in return

your quote...""we seem to agree on a lot of points,""

i agree
we all have more in common[the same]..than any real difference

""yet Whites are still taught to judge themselves
by the actions of a few criminals and thieves.""

that requires proof
for every that feels like that
there would be many more who dont..
the 'token black' or token eastern chinese
is only too common..in the halls of power...where its still in the main white rule

how many 'others' hold media empires
or own tv stations..or run party machines

sure..""The White Guilt has to stop,""

but then what...'white supremicy'?
guilt free powerfull elites?

""there's no good reason to teach little White kids
that their ancestors we illegal immigrants,thieves and murderers.""

blanket claims dont credit the debate
very few need to the vile stuff[like joseph banks singlehandedly
trying to exterminate the 'natives'..
then going home saying empty land
[terra nulios]..

it only took one

''Only White kids are targeted in this way""
give proof

'"Anti Racism and White guilt are just a cover anti White motives.""

done by who ...in control of systems?
[the black suited mafia?

look at what you really said

""You wouldn't teach Aboriginal kids
that their great grandfathers were rapists, drunks and thieves
*!*!*!even if it was the truth,*!*!*!

""you'd spare them the shame,guilt and humiliation.""

so were excuse blatent white/rights in israel
running global cartels for white suppremicy?
ie the northern..[non semite jews]

let them assume semite standing
when the true semites are loked up in gaza?

when the true semites are lower class..in gods holy land
[all jews arnt equally..jew..only white jews rule]

i agree..""Let sleeping dogs lie...
except the curs who've actually bitten someone,""

the links reveal the dog
and who has been bitten

last ones were near 80 white mainly xtian kids
the previous was murdering an innocent school teacher
who happens to have the 'same name'..as a nuke scientist

but the histry goes right back
http://www.jewwatch.com/

again we agre..""everyone should be aware of the mad dogs
so no one else gets bitten in the future.""

semite is dark skin...right?
how come the white racists
leave the jews alone

ONLY pick on dark skin arabs
cause the mossad makes it a policy
to infiltrate EVERY new group..[black or white]
then has the bloggers..to tell us black is white

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/850/298/Israel_Hires_Internet_Soldiers_to_Penetrate_American_Forums,_Chatrooms.html

Just what is a 'white' person?

Odds are that if you are of European descent then you have ancestors who had dark pigmentation as well as differing cranial bone structure.

Blame it on the Romans, they rarely let soldiers serve among their own people and when these Legonaires had served out their twenty years (or whatever was the going rate when they enlisted) they often married locals and settled down among them.
Africans would be sent to serve in Britain and Brits sent to, say, Palestine whilst Palestinians would go to Gaul and so on.

Even when they didn't settle in a particular country but chose repatriation many of them left their genes behind, here and there.

Relatively few people can tracee their ancestry back beyond a few hundred years, those of us that can go back over a thousand years are only too well aware of the mixture, ranging from good to bad to bloody awfull!

Dear davidf,

And good to hear from you too. I had heard all expats are being recalled to help with your debt crisis so all the best.

The fraught relativism is that of others and myself on this thread. And you have made a justifiable, logical point, but we are also humans with emotional responses who find greater empathy for that with which we are most familiar.

Few of us here would have had to leave our dead or dying child on a dusty roadside in a place like Somalia or had them blown to pieces by through a drone strike but many would have sent their children on camps either with their school or during school holidays. I find it neither disturbing nor unusual that the horror in Norway has elbowed other either current or historical death tolls aside for the moment. It is simply the power of the most imaginable.

Any empathy shown to other human beings in distress is a good thing and should not be negated by the lack of it shown to all peoples everywhere.

Finally it doesn't help when we know we have extreme rightwing elements in our own country and thus mostly immune to the protections our police, our alliances and our first world military afford us. Some of the violence voiced by callers to our shock jocks is appalling and deserving of our concern.

Dear David f.,

I agree. A country's image does not always gell with the reality.
But that can be said about almost any country in the world.
The images presented are often different from what one experiences.
And not everyone has the same set of experiences.
Still I believe that the past streams of migration
has given Australia its reputation
as a country of diverse peoples
that is all the better for it.
Australia is no longer considered as a cultural back-water
as it was - when it was government policy to be joylessly conformist.

Incidentally, aboriginals are boat people also !

Back to the topic at hand. Apparently the Norwegian terrorist is something of a fan of our very own John Howard, Peter Costello, George Pell and even Keith Windschuttle - who have all been immortalised in the homicidal maniac's 'manifesto':

>< Norway Killer's Manifesto Praises Australian Conservatives

Accused Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik praised four Australian conservative leaders - including former prime minister John Howard - in his 1,500-page manifesto.

[...]

In a manifesto posted online under the Anglicised pseudonym Andrew Berwick, the killer quoted Mr Howard, former treasurer Peter Costello, Catholic Cardinal George Pell and conservative writer and historian Keith Windschuttle.

[...]

He praised the Howard government's border protection policies: "They have taken serious steps towards actually enforcing their own borders [and] despite the predictable outcries from various NGOs and anti-racists, prime minister John Howard has repeatedly proven to be one of the most sensible leaders in the Western world." ><

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-26/breivik-manifesto-praises-australian-conservatives/2810730

You can tell a lot about people by the company they keep.

Very interesting Morganzola. It is truly frightening that someone can write a nasty 1500 page manifesto online and not come to anyone else's attention.

Politics and religion should be kept poles apart in my opinion.
The racist white Christian terrorist is every bit as frightening and threatening to me as any other murdering terrorist.

John Howard was one politician that used to mix politics and religion too closely together, and Tony Abbott is another.
We can do without it.

We are just as likely to have extreme right-wing conservative terrorists in our country as any other, and it is ironical that someone like Breivik who is so upset by multiculturalism that he murders so many of his OWN people.

Twisted logic for a twisted mind.

Here we go, new information is drip fed in the days following the terror attacks, as per usual.
The old familiar pattern starts to emerge:
- At the time of the shooting The Police are inexplicably absent from the murder scene, or delayed by incompetence and "bad luck". No helicopter was available but a helicopter was over the island at the time of the shootings and it's occupants observed the carnage.
-The terrorist was "investigated" by Police in the months before the attack but his activities were not thought suspicious or serious enough to warrant further inquiry.
- The terrorist changes his story, remember at the seascape lodge Martin Bryant was talking on the phone to a Police negotiator asking them to stop targeting their "main man upstairs", while the sounds of gunfire are heard in the background, he later changed his story and pleaded guilty.

I'll go out on a limb and speculate on what's going to happen next.
-Witnesses will have trouble identifying Breivik as the killer.
-Vital evidence such as security camera tapes will disappear.
- Witnesses will keep insisting that another accomplice or accomplices were on the island.
-The manner of the shootings will raise questions, ballistics data and eyewitness accounts will paint a picture of an incredible feat of precision shooting, we're already hearing accounts of people being shot in the head and neck in rapid succession, just like the victims at Port Arthur.

Is Mise.
You know who White people are, that kind of talk doesn't wash among intelligent company.
Nobody has ever asked me what race I am, these "Who's White anyway?" comments only occur anonymously on the internet, people don't ask such things in real life.

One under god
Yeah..again, I don't have a lot of time and I try not to get into arguments over obscure points and minutae, as above, everyone knows who is White in the context of this discussion.

Dear Jay of Melbourne,
I am glad to meet a kindred spirit, in that, when I look at another individual,all I see is another human being, 'colour' (OH! how I loathe that expression,), to me the skin is the covering, it is what lies beneath that covering which interests me. I see all of humanity as children of the universe, honestly that is the truth. When we saw on TV the poor beings on the Horn of Africa, I just sat there and bawled like a 2 year old, watching the malnourished suffering so much. Because I am neither young nor wealthy, there is not much I can do to help. My Doctor donates six weeks of his time annually and takes his wife (a nurse) and his young (ish) children working for 'Doctors without Borders" in East Africa, all we can manage is to Donate to that organisation, at least the children and adults get some Medical care.
I really feel that the African folk from all cultures are too much maligned, when, let's face it, we are descendents of them. And, much as I like nature, and all of its' critters, humanity comes a big 'first' for me.
I enjoyed your post, very thoughtful.
NSB

NSB
But you understand why I address other White people with general or "universal" concepts and to some extent play up to the "White supremacist" fantasy?
I'm pro White, I'm showing dissent toward mainstream views on race but I play the game according the rules and never break those rules, something which people like Breivik will never understand.
It's true that White people live more or less in a fantasy world, it doesn't matter what you're selling or what point of view you're trying to give them you have to role play a character that fits into their vision of the world.
I'm giving a point of view on Race which is tailored to fit into these White fantasies in a specifically White way, if I'm posting on say Muslimvillage I play a different role tailored to their rules and I never break their rules.

Dear csteele,

I am in the US at my oldest son's house in Williamsburg, VA waiting for him to come back from Brazil where he is doing anthropological fieldwork. We will go up to the Adirondacks where I spent much of my childhood. To me it's the most beautiful place on earth. In September back to Australia. Have been traveling around the US visiting family & friends.

Dear Pericles,

Was tempted to send the info on & statements of Anders Breivik to Boaz, but my desire to have nothing more to do w him was stronger. He is a missionary and tried to get me to accept his fundy nonsense.

"Is Mise.
You know who White people are, that kind of talk doesn't wash among intelligent company.
Nobody has ever asked me what race I am, these "Who's White anyway?" comments only occur anonymously on the internet, people don't ask such things in real life."

Jay,

I do ask such things in real life, and what's more discuss it among intellegent company, if anthropologists and genealogists are intellegent company. I continually meet people, who are chasing their family trees, that are under the delusion that they are 'pure white'. I usually manage to upset them somewhat when I tell them that the Vikings who raped some of their female ancestors may well have been from Persia and beyond. The Vikings were more interested in fighting prowess and trading savvy than skin colour.
Ireland was also raided by the Moors (today's Algerians et al) and the Rape of Baltimore (near Cork) resulted in many of the men of the village being killed or if lucky (relatively) enslaved. Many of the women are reputed to have said afterwards "Thank God, my husband did his duty by me the night he was killed". There's even a folk song about it.
My own paternal grandfather, a Cork man, was dark enough to be South Indian, his Irish accent however proclaimed him as 'white'.
Some of the greatest delusions about race are held by people who don't know their ancestors beyond a few generations.

Is mise.
All that's irrelevant, both local and international law say race is real and it matters, I'm part of my race, Cathy Freeman is part of her race, Waleed Ali is part of his race, and in the context of this discussion Whiteness is not a construct but a reality.
Whiteness is a concept to be sure but it has physical manifestations, it can be quantified, observed and experienced....c'mon as an intelligent person you must understand that race is not just about genetics.
If Cathy Freeman fronted up to a school and said "I'm White" the kids would stare at her befuddled, if I turned up to an Islamic college and because, like you I have ancestors from Cork I exclaimed "I'm of Moorish descent" I'd be laughed straight back out the gate.
Only White people have to have this pointed out to them. it's a racial trait.
Seriously, do you think there are guys over in Lagos who suddenly realise,
"Damn! those Africans over in America have it a lot better than me! What's up with that? I wonder why they've got more stuff than I have?"

Jay,

Race is a myth and a bigger myth is 'whiteness'.
Without the idea of race there could be no racism.

Most people probably think of Indians as a different 'race' to Europeans, yet give them a photo negative of a group of Indian businessmen in suits and ties and a similar negative of a European group and they can't tell the difference.

Ever met an Indian albino?
Same piink skin as a European albino, same pink eyes, same white hair, same bone structure and indistinguishable one from the other.

Queen Elizabeth the First was upset about the number of 'blackamoors' in the London of her day, the visible evidence of which are the Chocolate Cockneys of today but most of their descendants have been absorbed into the 'white' population.

Is mise.
That's SUCH a White post.
Only a White person would put something like Photographic Negatives, Albinism and Mad Queen Bess together in an argument.
Race is not all about genetics, geneticists are proving that day by day, Pygmies are not adapted to jungle conditions, neanderthals were not adapted to cold, the Irish, Welsh, English and Scots are actually descended from the Basques, there's little to no continuity between modern and ancient Africans, people with the last name Cohen are very closely related after all...every day a new surprise.
Do you realist that these "Hard Core" White Nationalists use the word "Racial Consciousness" in every second sentence?

I've changed my mind.

I earlier recommended that Lexi should avoid reading the "manifesto" of this pathetic excuse for a human being. I now believe that everyone should read it, from cover to cover. Every word.

It is a horrendously "easy" read. There is little or no jargon, or over-the-top hate speech. It is a cold, straightforward collection of all the statements made by people we know, people we have encountered on this Forum, people we meet in pubs and on Sunday barbecues, about "Muslims", and "Islam".

It talks about history, much as Boaz used to do, covering the legitimacy of the Crusades, the heroism of Martel, the siege of Vienna, all the mantras and talismans that we have become so accustomed to hearing, we tend to dismiss them.

It talks about Eurabia. It channels Daniel Pipes, Jihadwatch, Melanie Philips, all the old favourites.

When it then proceeds to discuss the means to eliminate "Category A, B and C" traitors, as well as "Category D Individuals", it is horrifically banal.

It should be compulsory reading for anyone who cares about our civilization. It illustrates, graphically and clinically, the tiny step between talking about this stuff, and inflicting a tragic, meaningless death on innocent bystanders in the name of setting the world to rights.

I used to gently chide Boaz for his "whackamozzie" antics on this Forum. If he ever reappears to try the same game, I now have fifteen hundred and sixteen pages of additional material to discuss with him.

Quite possibly in a somewhat less amicable fashion.

Dear Pericles,

Thank you so much for expressing far more eloquently my exact thoughts when reading the tome.

I have just yesterday gently chided a relative who use to send me Jihad Watch materia byl asking him how many Templar Knight cells they had in Melbourne.

But it is a serious question as to how much a more strident approach might drive these leanings underground. One hopes that Boaz may well have been tempered by his discussions here. 

The target of my anger is still our venal politicians and shock jocks who have driven and amplified these fears within our communities.

I would hope there might be a moment of reflection by them all. A moment of shame however might be too much to wish for.

The leading question is, of course, were his actions derived from "self-transcending" motives or "self-assertive" motives?

This from Arthur Keostler in "The Ghost in the Machine",

"....the crimes of violence committed for selfish, personal motives are historically insignificant compared to those committed "ad majorem gloriam Dei" out of self-sacrificing devotion to a flag, a leader, a religious faith or for political conviction. Man has always been prepared not only to kill but also to die for good, bad or completely futile causes. And what can be a more valid proof of the self-transcending urge than this readiness to die for an ideal....[self-transcendence] is derived from primitive identification instead of mature social integration; it entails the partial surrender of personal responsibility and produces the quasi-hypnotic phenomena of group psychology. the egotism of the social holon feeds on the altruism of its members..."

A large part of his opus is plagiarized from Unabomber Ted Kaczynski's manifesto.
Don't think I'll bother reading it.

Jay,
The Celts got their name from the ancient Greeks when they were passing that way. Their language is derived from ancient India, or thereabouts, like the rest of the Indo-European languages. The probability is that they originated from somewhere north of the Himalayas. The languages of the Celts have no relationship to the Basque language. There is no doubt that the Celts were in Iberia but they were also in what is today Switzerland also modern day France and a lot of other places. The main La Tene culture is considered to be Celtic.
We are a glorious mixture and 'white', as in light, is a mixture of all colours.

Dear Poirot,

While I do enjoy Arthur K you must forgive me but I'm struggling a little notion that 'self transcendence' can be derived from 'quasi-hypnotic phenomena of group psychology'. I will get there I hope.

There is a lot of finger pointing and defensive rhetoric from the Right at the moment but at least Christopher Hitchens manages to do it with a little style.

"One way of phrasing the question is this: Do the extreme jihadists and their most virulent opponents really have a symbiotic relationship? In tapes and sermons from mosques in London and Hamburg, you may find whole manifestos about the need to keep women as chattel, to eradicate the disease of homosexuality, to thwart the Jewish design over international finance, and other fantasies of the Third Reich mentality. Pushed to its logical or pathological conclusion, this would involve something that Europeans and Americans have never seen before: a conflict between different forms of fascism in order to see which assault on multi-ethnic democracy was the most effective."

A "large part", Is Mise?

>>A large part of his opus is plagiarized from Unabomber Ted Kaczynski's manifesto. Don't think I'll bother reading it.<<

Did you actually read the Unabomber's manifesto?

Breivik copied only a dozen or so passages from Kaczynski’s document.

The Unabomber's screed contained around 34,000 words - somewhere in the region of fifty or sixty pages - on the topic of the evils of modern technology and the industrial society.

Breivik wrote over 700,000 words, on the topic of bringing about the end of Islam, by force.

Why are you reluctant to read it? What are you afraid of finding?

What are you hiding from?

Pericles,
"What are you hiding from?"

Boredom.

pericules..quote..""Why are you reluctant to read it?""

for a start its a 'bait'
second did he really write of post it
did mein camp change anything
if the end result is hate
im not intrested mate

""What are you afraid of finding?''

hatred
blame
shame

think on this
how many times has merry ol england ben 'invaded'
war means killing off the males..then breeding with the females
then obliterating all the last invaders stood for/did or earned

we need to move on
past skin colour
past class past creed past greed
live in this moment..not relive past wrongs

""What are you hiding from?""

i hide from no man

look ol mate
give me a hour
listen to this link

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/bigideas/stories/2011/07/26/3277487.htm

then tell us to read the thoughts of a madman

Palestinian doctor Izzeldin Abuelaish's three daughters were killed by an Israeli rocket

yet he vowed not to succumb to bitterness and hate,
even as he poured out his grief..live on an Israeli television program.

He tells his incredible story in his book, "I Shall Not Hate".

At this Sydney Writers Festival session,
he's speaking with magazine journalist David Leser.

Izzeldin Abuelaish is a Palestinian doctor
and infertility expert who was born and raised
in the Jabalia refugee camp in the Gaza Strip...

he has every reason to hate
yet refuses to

i would rather watch him talk [again]
is there a transcript?

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/bigideas/stories/2011/07/26/3277487.htm

the world is full of good people
why would i bother to read the thoughts of a huge fool
who ended his learning with lies

Is mise,
I didn't say Celts were descended from Basques I said the people of the British Isles are genetically descended from Basques, or what I should have said is that they ARE Basques.
There's no such thing as a "Celt", an "Anglo", an "Anglo Celt" or any other of those PC labels which are given to White people.
And I'm going to repeat this until you stop talking about Genetics..."Racial Consciousness!"...Race is related to consciousness to a far greater degree than it is to Genetics.
Humans have been studying consciousness since day one so some conclusions can be made on that score, the human Genome was finally mapped in, I believe 2004, thus far the findings on the links between Race and Genetics and Genetics and psychological makeup are "inconclusive".
The law says race is real and it matters, so learned minds have come to the same conclusion as Racially conscious people. As we know from recent high profile court cases Genetics and ancestry may, or may not be a factor in the application of those laws but the question of whether an individual belongs to a particular race is not debatable, racial identity is not to be questioned nor can any presumption be made on the basis of race.
Under the law my racial identity cannot be questioned, now whether the courts would "play fair" and enforce the law equally in all cases is not the point, there's a pretty good case for saying that Whiteness can tip the scales in favour of a White person under most circumstances.
Look, I'm running out of words, go to ACRAWSA and read some Whiteness Studies material , then go and read some of Bob Whitakers writing and get back to me, I'm getting off this Hamster wheel of a thread for now.

Boredom? Really, Is Mise?

>>Pericles, "What are you hiding from?" Boredom<<

Admit it, you got your facts wrong because you didn't read either Kaczynski or Breivik. You just wanted to play the part of the world-weary cynic, aloof to the pain and suffering in Norway, and far too important to worry about such trivia anyway, eh?

I guess it's back to Angry Birds for you then, that'll keep your brain fully occupied.

Jay,

I don't think that the murderer that this thread is about was on about racial conciousness but was thinking more of skin colour.
Like it or not most racists are reacting to skin colour more than any other factor.
Race is a myth no matter what the Law may say, I'd place more faith in anthrolology than in legal studies.

Pericles,

Apparently what is a large part to some is but a small part to you, you're entitled to your erroneous opinions just the same as anyone else.
Care to answer my question on what could have saved the kids on the island?
What can be done to stop this sort of thing happening again?

Is mise.
Fine, sic the anthropologists on us "Wascally Wacists"then instead of the lawyers...ahh but that's what always happens in the end, the Self Hating Whites always run squealing to the "Race is real and it matters" legal system when they uncover "Hate".
This is the same legal system that entrenches White Privilege, Jails Aborigines at XX times the rate of Whites, the system that victimises the victim and gives the perpetrators suspended sentences.
So despite all evidence to the effect that Breivik targeted those kids solely due to their political affiliation and despite exhbit B, his manifesto in which he de-constructs, critiques and rejects "Racism", "Nazism" and Anti Semitism...in the face of all that you're still insisting it's a race crime?
You Is Mise are Anti White, you say you are anti Racist but what you are is anti White, Anti Racism is a code word for Anti White.

I thought Jay said he was going...

Can we get back to the topic, please (fascinating though the excursion into 'anthropology' may have been).

Isn't anybody besides suzeonline interested in what the terrorist wrote in his manifesto about Howard, Costello, Windschuttle et al?

That this political mass-murderer thought so much of our resident culture warriors to include them in his justification for his appalling crimes against humanity?

As an Australian citizen, I'm appalled that our former PM apparently inspired to some extent the perpetrator of an act of terrorism. I'm also ashamed that so few of my peers want to talk about the gorilla in the room.

Jay,

White skinned people are simply normal humans that are lacking in skin pigmentation, they can't help it.

Yes, I agree with Morganzola in that this tragedy appears to encompass much more than just racism or political differences.

This guy was anti just about everything!

Certainly he seemed to have a problem with Muslims and Islam, and yet still seemed to hate Jews?
He sounds more Nazi than anything.

Why would he have such a hatred for Islam and multiculturalism and yet run about madly killing his apparently Norway-born countrymen?

I see tonight on the news, his lawyer is going for the insanity plea.
I have no problem at all with him being found insane, and having to spend the rest of his life locked up with all the other criminally insane inmates.
Apparently, it is a fate worse than death, and thus ideal for this guy.

Dear morganzola,

I have no way of knowing what is in the minds of Howard, Gillard or Abbott. However, they know that some of the electorate are racist, and an appeal to the electorate's fear and hate can be to their party's electoral advantage. I feel that is what is behind their policies toward the boat people. Howard was most successful at it.

NSB:>>comments made by a Shock Jock, "That Julia Gillard should be shoved in a sack and dumped in the ocean", is the type of thing that triggers the tragedy that has occurred in Norway. At least, these 'know it all' bags of ego should be charged with Sedition.<<

Noisy that is a long bow to draw. Incitement is a focused stream of suggestion. What we have here is an expression of utter helplessness, and the vaunted outcome would be to remove that individual from your life. If the jock had said I hope she moves to Siberia, the intention would be the same, to rid her from your life.

I have seen a few governments come and go, I have seen some vitriolic campaigns and slurs cast upon politicians, but I have never before heard the openly spiteful and disrespectful ongoing diatribe heaped on Gillard and her Labor government as I have experienced in the past 4 years.

The brainless that you mention who listen and respond to talk back radio have one thing in common, they have a platform to say what they think without the interpretation of a journo. Why are the nations talk back radio stations stuck on one subject, the voicing of distrust and opposition to the Gillard Labor party. If they did not have the steady stream of disgruntled citizens the subject matter would go back to pedophiles, court cases, and poor personal outcomes.

Brown and Gillard want the Sydney Morning Pravda and you discredit the only platform we have to reach each others. People who have never whinged before are whinging now, they have had a gutful of the waste, the debt, the taxes, the Brown aspect, not to mention the bald faced lying.

Never before have so many negative factors come about in one government. The fools wait 15 years for the chance and then throw any tenure away in the first term.

@ Suze.
He seems like the cartoon version of a "Nazi"promoted by Hollywood that you're used to seeing. Nazis weren't about "race hate", read about Jesse Owens experiences at the Berlin Olympics and perhaps look up "Hitler's Black Soldiers".
Yes, the Nazis wanted to get rid of Jews but for entirely different reasons to the ones commonly given by Islamophobes for getting rid of Muslims.
Breivik doesn't hate Jews, I don't know where you got that idea, he's staunchly pro Israel, like all "Right wingers" he's very much opposed to Anti Semitism ,he accuses Islam of being the real "Racists" and and I'm pretty sure his lawyer, whom he specifically asked to represent him, Geir Lippstad, is Jewish

Interesting post on Nhooting.com.au:
"Posted 26 Jul 2011 - 01:00 PM

re: Bob Brown [Greens], Samantha Lee [Gun Control Australia] et al

[adjective deleted] vultures, circling above the still warm bodies of a massacre, ready to pick at the meat and use it to fill their bellies.

The dust on this tragedy hasn't even begun to settle and these monsters are already using it to push their agenda. They are a bunch of sick, twisted and bitter individuals who care not for their fellow men and women and only wish to push their own agenda with no thought of how it impacts anyone else who doesn't follow their narrow sighted beliefs.

These poor excuses for people make me sick, it takes a calous and pathetic person to jump on the tail of such a heinous act and use it this way.

I expect no less from such self righteous, lying bastards."

Ref: http://www.shooting.com.au/forum/

The rush to blame Muslims..for the carnage,..hastily parroted by an onslaught of mainstream “terror experts,”..was a startling insight into how the propaganda..that fuels the war on terror is so unquestionably bounced around the echo chamber..of the corporate media.

It’s also a reminder that the mainstream press
instantly falls in line..with whoever mentions zionism
the establishment designates..the enemy du jour to be..at any given time.

Now that Muslims have been so vehemently demonized as terrorists, it’s the turn of so called “right-wing extremists,.. or anyone who disagrees with mass immigration,..loss of sovereignty and globalist financial looting,..to feel the heat.

The effort to smear European conservatives as unhinged radicals who harbor simmering urges for bloodlust..is now in full swing, and it’s a demonization campaign..firmly founded on the carefully crafted public portrayal of Anders Behring Breivik.

However,..it’s quickly becoming apparent that just as many eyewitnesses reported two gunmen..on the island where the rampage unfolded,..there are two different personas behind Breivik himself.
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=130515

Indeed, there are two different Facebook profiles
for Breivik,..one from before the massacre
and one..*from after.

The latter profile appears to have been embellished
and deliberately altered to emphasize the notion
that the gunman was motivated by his “Christian conservative” beliefs.

Compare the two profiles below (click to enlarge).
http://static.prisonplanet.com/p/images/july2011/250711facebook2a.jpg

The first one in Norwegian
was deleted minutes after Breivik’s identity became public.

The second profile in English
appeared after the original was deleted,
and became the de facto profile of the killer.

“Several things have been doctored up
to alter the suspects political views.

First a section titled “Philosophy” has been added to include “Christian,” and “Conservative.”

The media has used this to great lengths,”
notes the Council of Conservative Christians website.
http://cofcc.org/2011/07/norwegian-killer-facebook-hoax/

In the second profile, Breivik’s interest in Winston Churchill and Max Manus, the leader of the Norwegian anti-Nazi resistance, have been deleted,

presumably because they don’t fit with the psychological profile that Breivik was a right-wing neo-Nazi who had links with the English Defence League.

There was clearly manipulation
surrounding Breivik’s Facebook page after the attack

As Madison Ruppert notes, http://www.activistpost.com/2011/07/analyzing-oslo-attacks-part-three-more.html

“Someone was active on Breivik’s Facebook accepting friend requests after the massacre took place.”

People were also tricked into registering on a fake Facebook page set up in support of the gunman’s actions.

Additionally, in a series of Internet postings, Breivik clearly characterizes himself not as a populist Christian conservative, as the media has attempted to push,

but as a Bill Kristol style neo-con,
an enthusiastic supporter of Israel,
attacking racists and accusing others of being “anti-gay”.

“None of the comments are extreme..or hint at a desire to commit violence,” notes the CCC website, adding that Breivik was a supporter of the website which was run by Hans Rustad, a former Jewish left-winger turned neo-conservative.

It seems as if there are two Breivik’s, the original, a socially liberal, pro-Israel neo-con, and the second post-massacre profile of a Christian conservative, white supremacist.

The second profile has clearly been embellished to push the notion that Breivik’s rampage was driven by his Christian conservative beliefs,

which is convenient given the fact that governments recently introduced the meme that white, Christian conservatives were the leading terror threat.
http://cofcc.org/2011/07/norwegian-killer-facebook-hoax/

Breivik’s character of an enraged psychopath intent on butchering as many people as possible in the name of his cause is also contradicted by people who knew him personally.

In an interview with Russia Today,
http://www.infowars.com/dhs-video-characterizes-white-americans-as-most-likely-terrorists/

Ulav Andersson, who worked closely with Breivik,
said that the killer showed behavior “absolutely nothing anywhere near that” depicted by the media’s characterization of him,

and that his apparent racism was never expressed in terms any harsher than mild and “mundane” annoyance at being rejected by women.

Andersson said that Breivik was not opinionated, “never came across as some kind of religious fanatic or anything,” and did not have a well developed ideology.

Adding that he never imagined Breivik would be capable of committing such an atrocity, Andersson says that he thinks Breivik was “brainwashed,”

a judgment which correlates with eyewitness reports..

continues

stating Breivik carried out what would have undoubtedly been an intense and stressful rampage with complete calmness and a blank expression on his face.

Andersson’s portrayal of Breivik seems to fit far more with the pre-massacre Facebook profile of the gunman as oppose to the post-massacre profile which seems to have been embellished to a significant degree.

A plethora of other questions continue to circulate surrounding Breivik and his motives. Why did this supposedly anti-Muslim crusader slaughter dozens of white Norwegian teenagers?

Why didn’t he target a mosque?
Why did this supposed “Christian conservative” list a television series that glorifies vampirism (True Blood) as his favorite show?

How did Breivik’s ties to freemasonry and his obsession with the Knights Templar play into his rampage?

Why did Breivik lift entire portions of leftist Unabomber Ted Kaczynski’s manifesto and incorporate them into his own screed?
http://news.yahoo.com/norway-suspect-borrowed-unabombers-manifesto-200617817.html
Just like the Oklahoma City bombing,
which the case has been obsessively likened with,
the evidence is starting to point to a wider plot,
http://www.infowars.com/norway-terror-attacks-a-false-flag/

but concurrently there seems to be a deliberate effort to manufacture a profile of Breivik as a lone-nut psychopath who was influenced by racism, nationalism, Christianity, and a hatred for Europe’s predominantly neo-liberal elite,

who coincidentally..will reap
the greatest political benefits

from this tragic massacre.

@Is Mise:

Heh - I see it didn't take very long at all for you to "use it for your own agenda".

I haven't noticed anybody here talking about gun control, have you?

One Under God,
Three theories or I suppose "Memes" emerged in the first couple of hours after the attacks.
The first was the suggestion that an Islamic group had claimed responsibility, that evaporated as soon as Breivik was arrested.
The second was that it was a "hybrid attack", a collaboration between Neo Nazis and Jihadists.
The third, which actually emerged simultaneously with the second was that Breivik was actually the Right Wing Zionist blogger "Fjordman", this has subsequently been denied by this person's associates in the David Horowitz/Robert Spencer milieu.

Theory two is, on face value plausible, PC disinformation aside since 9/11 there has been one faction of the "Nazis" who actively call for co-operation between Radical Muslims and Radical European Nationalists in a "quid pro quo" where they'd simultaneously liberate Europe and re establish the Islamic caliphate. Whereupon the Muslims currently residing in Europe would return to freedom in their traditional lands and the New European Imperium would be installed.

However, as we know Breivik is most definitely not in that camp and he's not on the side of Egalitarianism or Ethno Nationalism either.

The rest you've covered in your posts, so there's no need for me to repeat it.

I honestly wouldn't go there if I were you, morganzola.

>>Isn't anybody besides suzeonline interested in what the terrorist wrote in his manifesto about Howard, Costello, Windschuttle et al?<<

One thing that should not result from this horror is a concerted attack on our freedom of speech. If you follow that path - x should not be allowed to say what he says because y might use it as an excuse to kill someone - we all lose. The Beatles would be responsible for the actions of Charles Manson, and so on.

Unless the words are deliberately and clearly incitement to violence or to crime - which is already an offence separate from freedom of speech - people should be allowed to express their opinions, however vile we may feel them to be.

It cannot be any other way. In this, I am in agreement with Guy Rundle, who (slightly edited) expresses it as follows:

"Mark Steyn, Melanie Phillips, Bruce Bawer and others need to be relentlessly brought to account [not] for the actions of Breivik... [but] on the basis that their disregard for truth, and values most of us hold in common, have contributed to an atmosphere in which people can move from obsessive grievance to violence."

As Breivik's manifesto demonstrates, for some it can be a small step.

@ Pericles:

Quite so, but you've kindly got us to where l think we should be in terms of that aspect of the attack. I certainly wouldn't be recommending anybody trying to gag hate speech, and I agree that the best strategy in dealing with it is to refute the lies upon which it is invariably based.

Mind you, the fact that the Norwegian terrorist included our 'culture warriors' in his manifesto is an uncomfortable fact of which 'conservative' Australians should be reminded, IMHO.

May I just point out a few things about the so called "Right", that is the "White Right" not the "Zionist Right".
The most obvious characteristic of politicised "White Nationalism" is the fact that they don't actually DO anything.
They write each other long e-mails and cut and paste news articles on ethnic crime to Stormfront and VNN, then once a year they'll pull out the old monkey suit and shuffle off to some Airport hotel or community centre meeting room to hear a few people give lectures on the things the e-mails contained anyway. Then they go home and spend the next year writing more e-mails and forum posts about what a great leap forward this years conference was and how it was great to catch up with their comrades over a glass of cask Riesling and a rubbery chicken dinner.

Then of course we have the "Costume party Nazis", the only thing that needs to be explained there is that there are actually a few of them who are not working for the Anti Defamation League or the F.B.I.

We move on to the Skinheads, yeah sure there are a few crews who are very professional and present as very slick, savvy operators but in reality they're just working class versions of the "Rubbery Chicken" conference people, they just prefer beer and Skinhead rock music to Pernod and Wagner, again they don't actually DO anything outside their own club activities.
The "Knuckleheads", the Green Teeth outsiders are just that, the only thing that marks them out is their violence toward each other.
Seriously, there have been periods over the last ten years where they've knocked each other off at the rate of one or two a month.
Every time I read about some "Kamerad" being shot or stabbed I automatically think "So which one of his bonehead mates did it?"

I got my copy of 2083 from www.kevinislaughter.com (which my spell checker concocted into 'Levi Islam her', don't know why I take notice but I do). He had posted a little spiel for visitors that resonated with me and probably sums up my response to this thread and many like it on the subject.

"I will not ask for people to be reasonable, those that are will be.
I will not ask for people to consider before speaking, those who are inconsiderate were so before this.
I will not ask people to not make false claims, opportunistic liars who agreed would only be lying.
I will not ask people to refrain from what I think are bad jokes or tut-tut them for worrying about something that seems far less important, it’s solipsistic. Tragedies impact people differently, and those that live have their own struggles."

Some posters come across as touch defensive and one gets the impression their world view might have taken a little battering with what has occurred. The diatribe by the 2083 author about political correctness, referring to it as 'cultural marxism', does seem to taint their position.

"Those who would defeat cultural Marxism must defy it. They must use words it forbids, and refuse to use words it mandates."

It is going to be interesting to see how much the conservative 'White victim' takes a hit over this.

It is also interesting to think what the Andrew Bolt's of this world would be saying if a similar act had been taken by an 'eco-terrorist' on a Conservative party's buildings and youth gathering, determined to send a message about the inaction toward the threat posed by global warming. Would they be saying this was just a madman and not be apportioning blame? Somehow I think not.

I am having difficulty in reconciling a personal wish to disseminate and discuss 2083 on OLO and the wish of the author to have as many people as possible exposed to the material. 

Morganzola,

I just thought that it was an interesting post, because what was done in Norway has little bearing on the domestic situation in Australia, but the Greens used it to call for more gun control here.
Brown has been riding his hobby horse about semi-automatic pistols for years.
This latest example of his utter insensitivness is almost as bad as when he jumped on the bandwagon and accused coal miners of being responsible for the recent Queensland floods.

Csteele,
Europe has a very different political culture to the one we're used to, mainly because politics over there is actually worthy of the description "cultural pursuit".
For a lot of us White Australians it's hard to get one's head around a person being so exercised by the "state of things" as to even look for a political solution much less take drastic and irreversible action such as Breivik did.
Norway has roughly 1/5 our population and roughly double the number of active members of political parties. What's more from a quick scan of Wiki most of them have youth wings, a concept which would probably horrify the majority of White Australian parents.
Anything we might bring up is just going to go over most people's heads if we take it outside this thread and into the real world.
It doesn't matter which stance one's taking here, or what our political views (or lack thereof in my case) unless you're prepared to spend months and months mentoring someone just to bring them up to speed on what you've learned over half a lifetime you won't make an impression upon them.
It goes back to what I was trying to explain before, unless you use populist language and give White people your views in a Generalised sort of "White" way they won't listen to you.

And so it goes:

" http://trademinister.gov.au/transcripts/2011/ce_tr_110726_sky_news.html

Sky News AM Agenda with Kieran Gilbert

GILBERT: And what about the idea of a ban to … a ban on semi-automatic pistols? This is something being pushed by Senator Brown of the Greens; also the National Coalition for Gun Control arguing, today, that there should be a ban on semi-automatic pistols.

EMERSON: Yeah, look, I'd take that on notice. I'm aware of that proposal. Again, while I'm in the mode of congratulating Coalition members, congratulations to John Howard for what he did on gun control. I think it was in 1997, following the Port Arthur massacre. So look, I think…

GILBERT: But you'd be open to the idea of Glock pistols, for example, tougher rules on that?

EMERSON: Yeah, it would be wrong for me to make a determination on that here. Just suffice to say that I think the use of weapons that enable people to commit mass murder, in the name of religion — whether it's Christianity, or Islam or any other religion — is a terrible thing. And that to see these young people lose their lives because they actually had a belief in fashioning a better world, a more decent world, is just horrible and it was an act of cowardly terrorism.

And I finally say this: we should not give any publicity to this bloke who did this, because that's what he wants. He wants to stand up and share his crazed, violent ideology with the world; seeking to convert them to his bizarre, vicious cause, and we should not give him that satisfaction.

GILBERT: Craig Emerson and Senator Brandis, appreciate that."

Question is 'How could the murderer have been stopped?'

Think about it, there must have been some way.

Another observation from Shooting.com.au
(Quote):
In yesterday's Weekend Australian

"Virtual classrooms of cold blooded killing

The link between the Norway killings and extreme video games cannot be ignored.

By Jim Wallace.

[Jim Wallace is the Managing Director of the Australian Christian Lobby and a former SAS commander]

Among other things he had this to say on Modern Warfare 2

" . . .I made the paint at the time that the game would never be used in SAS training because
it didn't demand restraint in the use of force, or mercy, both reuired of soldiers.

But the games industry maintains it's just a game.

It seems Breivik is smarter than that. In one of his blogs he saih "I see Modern Warfare 2 more as part of my training simulation than anything else."
Whatever may prove to be his state of mind, he seems to understand this issue better than not just the games industry that produces them but even Home Affairs Minister Brendan O'Connor andsome of our state attorneys-general.
It's not a game it's a simulator.. . ."

Can't give a link 'cause I can't find it on the Australian's site, but it's on page 12 of Focus in the Weekend Australian (unuote)

Here's the link: http://www.theaustra...o-1226104582317

More spin-off as others climb onto the bandwagon:

The Sunday Times

WA Police will conduct random audits at gun clubs and shooting ranges across to catch unlicensed firearm owners.
The move comes after the recent Norway massacre in which a lone madman killed 77 people, shooting 69 in cold blood.

The Sunday Times can reveal that the spot checks at gun clubs and scrutiny of club members will start in August and will be performed by the Licensing Enforcement Unit of the WA Police.

Until now, firearms associations and shooting ranges have been self-regulated.

"Auditing of clubs and their members will ensure compliance and identify those persons who may be in breach, and as a consequence may be open to prosecution or the revocation of their licence," a spokeswoman for Police Minister Rob Johnson said.[We all know that criminals with unlicenced pistols go to their local gun clubs to draw unwanted attention to themselves.]

In March, The Sunday Times revealed that WA Police had lost track of thousands of guns and the firearms licensing system was in disarray.

Police admitted that the firearms infringement registry, which alerts police to unpaid gun licence renewals, had been deactivated in mid-2008 because of technical issues. The admission came 18 months after a review by Auditor-General Colin Murphy found WA Police did not adequately monitor the possession, use and dealing of firearms in the community. [Competence rules, OK?]

Canning Gun Club president Peter Watson, said the random audits were unnecessary.

"If you ask me, it's a waste of bloody resources because we are self-regulated," he said. "We don't allow anyone on the range without the proper registration and checks."

Mr Watson, who has been shooting recreationally for 18 years, said gun clubs and shooting ranges in WA were highly responsible.

"Safety is paramount to us," he said. "We do everything we can to make sure there isn't any incidents or accidents."

According to the Department of Sport and Recreation, there are 231 registered gun clubs across WA.

Opposition police spokeswoman Margaret Quirk said police resources could be better used.

Link to full story http://www.perthnow....3-1226104913792

Is mise.
Did I already post this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN1TBRhDg3s

There's something very wrong with a system that allows that through but attempts to ban a game like Fallout 3 or Risen 2 because they show simulated drug use.
I'm a keen gamer myself and those Call Of Duty games are too much for me, I returned Modern Warfare to the shop and exchanged it straight after playing the "No Russian" mission.
There are attempts to handle the subject responsibly in gaming, the game "First to Fight" actually used U.S Marine Corps R.O.E. The game was set in Lebanon in some future conflict and killing or wounding civilians would end the mission (if I remember it rightly) what's more it had a simulation of your unit's morale, civilian casualties lowered the morale and effectiveness of the AI soldiers under player command and made the game much harder.
Video games can be very sophisticated pieces of software,they can actually teach kids about planning, resource management, multitasking,timing and teamwork.
Modern Warfare is at the low end in terms of complexity, it's basically point and shoot,there's no real strategy or skill involved, among "serious" gamers it's regarded as a game for meatheads and little kids, which ,I suspect are it's target audiences.

Is Mise

The tragedy is that while gun registration does help reduce accidental shootings and those unpremeditated acts of rage, a nut-job like Breivik will always find what he wants (although I understand he held a legitimate gun license).

Games like Modern Warfare 2 will remain just games for the majority of players - again nutters will find ways to train whether such games are banned or not.

JoM, interesting to note that you can give assessments of so many warfare games - not really interested in the merits of any you have mentioned preferring puzzle/strategy to warfare type games myself - do try to stay on topic.

Ammonite,

"Games like Modern Warfare 2 will remain just games for the majority of players - again nutters will find ways to train whether such games are banned or not."

That was not Wallace's point but rather that such 'games' de-sensitize the players to killing and that they would not be used to train SAS personnel because of the removal of mercy and responsibility etc.
Remember this viewpoint is from an ex-serviceman who was training people to kill.

The answer to the uestion of how the murderer could have been stopped, once he started, is: with a gun; but nobody had one did they?

When the next massacre occurrs the answer, unfortunately, will still be the same.

We have no idea when the next one will be but the odds are that there will be one, even if it's only by a copycat out to set a new world record and achieve a place in the history books.

Meanwhile the Greens and their fellow travellers will push for more gun control and the further disarming of honest, law-abiding people.