All over the world, and especially in the less developed societies, the pressure of the human population and its technologies is devastating natural ecosystems. This pressure takes many forms - urbanization and highway construction; transformation of virgin land into farmland; chemical pollution of fresh water; dredging and landfill in coastal areas; uncontrolled hunting and poaching, especially of African wildlife; deliberate and accidental poisoning of wildlife with pesticides; disruption of natural predator-prey relationships; strangulation of millions of birds and fish with discarded styrofoam pellets, plastic bags and other synthetic flotsam; dam construction and irrigation; and massive deforestation.

If this process continues, according to biologists, more than a million species will be extinct by the end of the century. Rain forests will be degraded and destroyed. To some people, the disappearance of other species as a result of human activity is a matter of no particular consequence. To others it represents the height of human hubris, in that we are making ourselves the ultimate arbiters of which species may survive and which may be obliterated.

Why should we protect other life forms?

Lexi:"we are making ourselves the ultimate arbiters of which species may survive and which may be obliterated."

Or we're just expressing our own species' particular traits without much concern about how other species fare, just like all the other species have little concern for humans.

At what point do we draw the line? Should we be having conniptions because smallpox and rinderpest have been killed off?

I used to be vexed about it, but I've come to realise that supplantation of species within ecological niches is natural and normal and occurs all the time, with or without people involved. Sure, we should be a bit careful, but I'm not about to start watching where I put my feet in case the last known example of a rare bug happens to be under them. Are you?

you have a great mind lex
but species extinction...isnt as big a problem
as many believe...genus extiction is tradjic

if we loose a pouch bearing carnivore
or an egg laying mammel..or a dodo
or a dinosaur..or water mammals

i think of extinction in the spiritrual context
knowing dead isnt dead..[ok huh-mans may express feelings about the issue..and cast blame on others..but thats easier than going out there doing something]

we can look at the ruins of the past
but a thing created..lives on in spirit

should we feel regret..of course
cause its really sad...but think if your the last of your species
[as i am]..your just waiting to re-join with your roots

is them enduring suffering
worth the price of your ending..your suffering

we had a cold snap the other day
and 5 species of tropical fish..died in my care
even with the best intentions...things will go to their death

its an interesting topic
one i tried to help in the other rspca topic

but that only ended up being *about the cattle
ie about an issue

or other things
im not sure we deserve these special things

we let die

anyhow im grieving
and as for blame...well what will that change

its gone
their gone

im so glad this earthy hell
experience..for me is nearly over
so much has died..its only fair..cause
we dont know what we got..till its gone

no ammount of grief/blame/shame
will bring them back

when their gone
thats for ever

think globally
act locally

*Why should we protect other life forms?*

Lexi, from my understanding of biology, without biodiversity,
there won't be a humanity. Take a look in nature, where one
species totally dominates. Eventually it crashes, but far harder
and faster as its ecosystem eventually becomes unsustainable.

But humans are far too anthropocentric or wise to see that.
So the species will learn the hard way, eventually, having
taken many other species with it. The world will keep spinning
with ants, cockroaches and similar lifeforms on board, without
too many mammals. So be it.

From a personal perspective, a world without tigers, lions,
chimps, bonobos, gorillas, orangutans and all the rest, other
then the last few locked up in zoos, will be all the poorer
for it. Its part of my philosophy that they have a right to
a bit of this planet too.

Apparently not so, according to the majority of humans. Only
more humans seem to matter. All very sad really

I'm not an expert in this field but from the little that I've read the facts quite horrified me and hence I started this thread. It seems that the march of industrial civilisation, which we generally equate with progress toward a better future is having a devastating effect on the other life forms of the planet. In fact, according to biologists we are having a catastrophic extinction of other species, not by the dozens, or the hundreds, or even the thousands, but by the millions.

Apparently this wholesale extinction of life forms occurs primarily in the tropical rainforests, a primordial green girdle stretching around parts of Central and South America, the Congo Basin in Africa, and Indonesian islands in the Pacific. These forests cover less than 6 percent of the planet, yet they contain most of its species. Under pressure from ranchers and peasants, the rain forest is being cut down and burned. More than 40 percent of the original rain forest has disappeared since World War II. If this process continues, more than a million species will be extinct by the end of the century.

As we've becoming aware there are many practical reasons why human society should protect other life forms. Tropical forests are a stabilizing force in the global climate for they absorb vast amounts of atmospheric carbon dioxide. Many plants are medically valuable: most anti-cancer compounds, for example, come from plants of the rain forest, and the pharmaceutical cornucopia is still mostly untapped.

Wild species are a "storehouse" for agricultural scientists who interbreed them with domestic species in order to create more fuitful or resistant strains. The rain forest is itself a vast and irreplaceable "library" from which genetic engineers of the future may draw their raw material. Many species among the millions of uncataloged plants could surely prove to be edible, and could become major crops in the future

Hi Lexi,
I became excited for a while when I read SPECIES EXTINCTION, I thought that someone had passed a Bill for the Extinction of Politicians :)
Ah Well, I will just have to dream on.
Cheers Lexi,
NSB

Dear Lexi,
On a more serious note, I read your post re extinction of species....well done.
Noisy

Lexi
Why should we protect other life forms?
Interesting question which depends very much on what you mean by protection & how far we are willing to ensure that protection.
If we are to protect them from our cruelty i think its impossible.

Humans are the natural enemy of these animals for all the reasons you listed and more. So they only real way to protect them from suffering at our heads is for their to be none imop.
If there were a way to remove other creatures from this earth- that would be the only way to protect them

Dear Noisy,

Thanks - I'm glad that you like the new topic.

Dear Kerryanne,

It's a tough call all right. However, there is hope, in my opinion, at least. It's true that the most developed technologies for altering the natural environment, the highly advanced industrialized societies have caused the greatest destruction of planetary ecosystems in the past. Today, they are taking the lead - however slowly - in efforts to protect the threatened and endnagered species.

In fact, many countries - have had the vision to establish a system of national parks, wilderness areas, and wildlife refuges, and these areas are admired the world over for their awesome grandeur and the flora and fauna they protect. Australia also has its wildlife refuges and national parks. Of course there's always pressure on these lands by economic interests that claim the federal government is "locking up" land needed for oil exploration, logging, mining, or housing and recreation facilities. But hopefully - a balance can be reached.

Most of the plants and animals with which we share the earth have been here a great deal longer than we have. For a fleeting moment in planetary history, our technology has given us domain over them. In awe, respect, and humility, we hopefully might just let them be.

Lexi my Balt beauty at least we could look forward to nearing the end of horrid Japanese whaling, this from the ABC:
Updated March 09, 2007 14:21:00
"The Federal Opposition's environment spokesman, Peter Garrett, says a Labor government will take legal action to stop Japanese whaling.Mr Garrett was in Sydney this morning, welcoming the crew of the latest anti-whaling expedition by Greenpeace".

BUT NOTHING HAPPENED

Garrett had the drift way back in 2007; tell them what they want to hear. They got into government, had the time to rack up a historical deficit, but no time to tell the Jap whalers what’s what, but they told Greenpeace they would, should we rename Garrett "peter pinochio" then we would have a set, juliar, the truth Waynes, and peter pinochio.

Just a thought re the despotic movement that the Greens have evolved into since they became the puppets of the NWO. Bob Brown and partner are a poster couple for Greens ideology, two come into the world, and two go out of it, negative gain. Extinction.

Dear SOG,

I'm glad that you're no longer mad at me. Thanks for the Japanese whaling information. I was under the impression that Australia had
taken legal action against Japan on whaling. Perhaps things got
bogged down at The Hague. I'll have to look into it further. Or
perhaps the Government decided to tread water carefully with Japan
as we need their trade.

As for the Greens - and two coming into the world and two leaving it.
I guess that it may not be about "extinction" as such - but curbing population growth. Which is surely something worth considering. If world population continues to grow rapidly, if industrialisation spreads around the world, and if pollution and resource depletion continues at an increasing rate - and all these things are happening -
as I've stated previously - where is human society headed? The most optimistic answer to these questions would be, one way or another, sweeping social changes await us.

rename Garrett "peter pinochio"
sonofgloin,
Pinochio talked sense ! Also he had solid wood between the ears whereas your candidate has solid bone.

oooh!, that was nasty individual...poor PG
NSB

Hi KerryAnn,
This extinction of many species is a curly one....do we have the right to extinguish species of our own volition?, as living creatures, we all have the same right to life I reckon. If I could choose what creature(s)I would like to extinguish, I would extinguish people who raise crops that need heaps of water, like tomatoes, and especially cotton and rice, it is a terrible drain on the most precious and vital resource that we have, that which requires large amounts of water to grow the above mentioned, should really be imported from those areas abroad which have an enviable amount of water falling on their country.
Cheers Kerryann.
NSB

Lexi there are two sides to this story.

Yes, we do make it hard for many species, however, we also provide more food for many others than they could have possibly imagined.

As such, they breed in plague proportions.

So the big question is, do we stop and go back to the stone age, or, do we do what we have been doing for years now and do our bit for the sake of all on the planet.

<< If this process continues, according to biologists, more than a million species will be extinct by the end of the century. >>

Lexi, I totally share your concerns. But may I complicate the matter somewhat, from my ecologist’s viewpoint.

Firstly, not all species are equal. There are key species with major impacts in their ecosystems, which would change things greatly if they went extinct. There are insignificant species that could disappear with little consequence for other species or for their ecosystems. And there is everything in between.

There are lots of species with close evolutionary relatives. Arguably if species with close relatives disappeared, we would not be losing as much biological heritage as for really distinct species with no close relatives.

And there are lots of species with close ecological niche relatives. That is, with others sharing the same or similar niches. If they disappeared, others would just fill in the gap, whereas if a species that occupies a niche that others can’t easily fill, the impact could be much greater.

Then we have the eternal problem of the definition of a species. Many closely related forms could pretty arbitrarily be considered to be different species, different subspecies or just different variants or populations of a species. There is a lot of inconsistency across the biological field in this regard. For that matter, there is glaring inconsistency within many families, genera and even relatively small groups of species.

And then there are changed ecological conditions which change species balances, favouring some and prejudicing others, thus causing a lot of upheaval and death of individuals without involving extinctions.

continued

There are probably many species that are just surviving and would be pushed out by small changes, if not caused by humans, then by something else in the near future. Species come and go naturally. Some of them would be at a point in the cycle where they are about to drop off the planet anyway.

Some species are greatly advantaged by human activity, not least weeds and feral animals. Many weeds and ferals greatly affect other species, even in areas not disturbed by human activity.

So the whole story is complex.

However, this does not lessen the fact that humanity is having an almighty impact on species and ecosystem around the world.

Thank You for your inputs thus far. I've looked up several websites on
species extinction in Australia. There are quite a few. The following one may be of interest:

http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/spp/

It tells us that "Australia has an abysmmal record on species extinction. More mammals have become extinct in Australia over the last 200 years than in any other country in the world. Many other species which live in our forests and woodlands are now in severe
decline. This is particularly the case with most of the 300 Australian animals and birds that use tree hollows to nest and find
shelter. Hollows only form in trees older that 120 years."

The website makes it quite clear that we need to "protect more
habitats to allow endangered forest and woodland species to
avoid extinction. The destruction of habitat and old trees has
to stop if we want these species to survive."

The Koala, Masked Owl, Yellow-Bellied Glider, Tiger Quoll, are just some of the species mentioned. There are many more - Google them for yourselves.

Surely we could do something to protect their habitats
to prevent the extinction of our threatened species. We have species that are not found anywhere else. They are an aesthetic treasure, capable of delighting our senses and giving us some vision of what we are so carelessly destroying. They've been here far longer than we have. If some different creature were to have the calamitous effects on other plants and animals that we ourselves do, we would undoubtedly consider it the most noxious and virulent pest to crawl upon the face of the earth.

Lexi

Excellent topic.

When someone asked on another thread recently, "How much biodiversity is necessary?"

I wanted to weep. Cry for the failure of our education system to educate the very basics of natural science, tear my hair out at the systematic and deliberate distortion of many facts about our world.

As you know species become extinct when the environment changes to one where a species cannot adapt and dies out. This can be on a cataclysmic scale such as when earth was hit by a massive asteroid, sending up ash into the atmosphere which prevented sunlight reaching the planet resulting in plant die-off, and the demise of herbivorous and carnivorous dinosaurs in a sudden death all over the globe. Apart from sudden events, species extinction usually occurs more slowly, ensuring that biodiversity is maintained even if the individual species are different.

Our agriculture, mining and habitats are altering the ecosystem at rates faster than many habitats can cope; we lose too many at too fast a rate, then the gene pool is limited to our loss.

For those interested, please read the following:

"Biodiversity... is most often thought of as the variety of organisms on earth. Yet it also includes two other factors: ecological diversity (the variety of ecosystems and ecological communities) and genetic diversity (the range of genetic differences found within and between species).

“All three aspects are crucial for the success and development of life on earth,” explains People and the Planet, a group raising environmental concerns based in London. “Since environmental conditions at every level are constantly changing, only diversity can ensure that some individuals and species will be able to adapt to the changes.”

Species declines and extinctions have always been a natural part of that process, but there is something disturbingly different about the current extinction patterns."

http://www.gaiadiscovery.com/nature-biodiversity/why-biodiversity-is-important-sustaining-ecosystems-with-eco.html

I apologise if I have repeated what others already written, having come late to this thread. However, I believe the message bears repetition. We will never learn all there is to learn about the natural environment, that is no excuse to not understanding the basics.

The Age:
February 18, 2010

“The controversial Bald Hills wind farm that catapulted the endangered orange-bellied parrot to fame in 2006 is under renewed scrutiny, after it was quietly granted permission to make its turbines more than 20 per cent higher. The Howard government unsuccessfully tried to kill off the Bald Hills proposal citing protection of the rare bird, but the State Labor government gave it the green light.

Wind farm spokesman Matthew Croome said impact studies were submitted as part of the request for a height increase and they found there would be negligible change generally, and further stated that there would be no impact specifically for the orange-bellied parrot, but Mr Croome could not share the reports with The Age.

Planning Minister Justin Madden said the changes would see up to 20 per cent more renewable energy produced and would give approval for the height increase.”

I throw this in because I heard several farmers complaining about the coming wind farms in the Southern Highlands and an endangered parrot that is the symbol of the district being at risk. Well my OLO Brownites, what is more important, the bird or the fiberglass?

About the fiberglass there are TENS of thousands of fiberglass wind towers sitting around California destitute and abandoned. The companies that put them in are gone, fled with the money, and the landowner has a removal cost of over $100,000 per unit.

Just a personal observation, when I drive between Sydney and Melbourne as I do every couple of months the wind farms are either not working or a decent percentage in the array are not working. I have never seen them going as seen in the pro wind propaganda vision.

Dear Ammonite,

Thgank you. In pre-industrial socieites people traditionally treated nature with respect, considering themselves a part of, rather than set apart from, the natural world. In industrialised societies our attitudes are different. Many see nature primarily as a resource of exploitation. As our "needs" increase, our capacity for exploitation expands. Many don't see our ravaging of the environment as "ravaging" at all; it's "progress" or "development." We're so used to exploiting natural resources and dumping our waste products into the environment that we frequently forget that resources are limited and exhaustible and that pollution can disrupt the ecological balance on which all of our survival depends. Thanks for reminding us of it.

Dear SOG,

I'm not familiar with that particular incident to which you refer. Bur I've come across this website which may explain a few things:

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1610250.htm

And the following on wind farms in general may also be of interest:

http://ramblingsdc.net/Australia/WindPower.html

Hi all, it seems to me that very few people would disagree that industrialised civilisation has had a terrible impact on pre-existing ecosystems and many species.

I do wonder what to do about it though. A lot of westerners feel bad about it and respond by wanting to reserve areas of natural vegetation and keep humans out as much as possible. However I think that this is another example of us getting it wrong. Indigenous cultures interacted with nature - in the case of Australia and Aboriginal people, for tens of thousands of years. The wollemi area west of the NSW central cost is an area of half a million hectares or so, and was inhabitied by Aboriginal people at least since the end of the last ice-age. A recent archaeological study found an extra 127 inhabited caves, and a stone axe only 150 yrs old. The researchers said it was like a ghost town, all the evidence of people but no people. We now manage this area as if they never existed, but they were a fundamentally important part of the ecosystem particularly with their use of fire.

We western urbanites seem to believe that if we just reserve areas and stay out the nature will reach a perfect equlibrium. Some ecologitists say this is just wrong, others think it is right but only is special cases:

Wallington, T. J., R. J. Hobbs, and S. A. Moore 2005. Implications of current ecological thinking for
biodiversity conservation: a review of the salient issues. Ecology and Society 10(1): 15. [online] URL:

http://www.ecologyandsociety.org/vol10/iss1/art15/

Environmentalist thinking and publicity campaigns are all about reserving more areas and leaving them alone. I don't think it will work and look at the victorian fires as well as species decline in the kimberely as examples.

We will have to get active in managing natural areas if we seriously want to maintain viable species populations.

Annomite summed it up, it is about habitat and incursion, and other than the demise of humanity is there a solution?

In 1700 only 7% of earth was farmed, now the figure is closer to 40% and that does not take into account a similar amount being used for raising livestock.

The global market has contributed to pristine land being degraded. In Brazil huge areas of rain forest have been replaced by soybeans a demand fuelled by China.

Perhaps the solution is twofold, globally work towards birth control and get rid of meat from our diet, I'm not a veg by the way. Thousands of generations ago our ancestors required the protein that meat delivers to develop the brain of the apex predator, but we have it now, it comes with birth. We could give up meat for roughage, vegetables, fruits and a protein enriched basic food, Soylen Green may I suggest.

Lexi thanks for the links, I am scathing of solutions that appease but do not solve. Wind is not an option given the ongoing maintenance costs as pointed out in your link $30,000 per day just to hire a mobile crane and the pressure placed on the moving parts means regular maintenance, that is why after the government assistance it is not viable as I exampled by the tens of thousands abandoned in the now bankrupt state of California. Then you have the intrusion factor and most importantly output and the energy required to maintain it when inactive. If I was considering an alternative I would go with waves and tides, but that is major engineering in return for negligible output

I don't have all the answers. We will have to get active. We know that advanced industrial technology can have dramatic ecological effects. It is leading to extensive pollution of air, water, and land, with disruptive effects on the health of organisms and the climate of the planet. It's also leading to the rapid depletion of resources, such as minerals and fresh water. Additionally, the combined effects of pollution and habitat destruction is causing a mass extinction of other species. I've listed the reasons, practical reasons, why human society should protect other life forms in an earlier post. However I am highly optimistic that we will solve our
problems in the future as we have done in the past. That we shall try to find technological innovations and alternative sources of energy, that we shall try to preserve the environment on which ultimately we are as dependent for our survival as any other species. Hopefully we shall make the right decisions.

Lexi

Yes I know and I am involved myself in such a project.

We have launched this since the passing of my best friend. We are looking for more members but not too many. Keith was a simple man and didnt like a fuss of any kind.
We`re just a quite mob low key. Have a look and see what you think.

http://wildlifeandhabitatsociety.vpweb.com.au/Home.html

Kerryanne

Vale to your friend Keith.

CANARIES IN THE COAL MINES

Not so long ago miners would take a canary down into a mine shaft to determine whether poisonous gases had reached lethal levels. Poor canary, it died if the air was toxic.

One of the most environmentally sensitive animals on this planet are amphibians, far more sensitive than the unlucky canaries. Part of the reason for amphibians is their moist absorbent skins; slight changes in their environment can cause death (except, unfortunately, for Cane toads, which provide an example of the introduction of a non-indigenous species into an environment).

Worldwide the loss of amphibians is as alarming as it is an indicator that our environment is changing.

"The researchers reported that 1,856 species, 32.5 percent of the known species of amphibians, are "globally threatened," meaning they fall into the International Union for the Conservation of Nature's categories of vulnerable, endangered or critically endangered. By comparison, 12 percent of bird species and 23 percent of mammal species are threatened.

The researchers reported 435 amphibian species are in rapid decline, at least nine species have gone extinct since 1980 and another 113 species have not been reported from the wild in recent years and are considered to be possibly extinct....

....Global Amphibian Assessment, were compiled by more than 500 scientists in 60 countries...

..."In my view this assessment of amphibian declines is very important, because it quantifies an extremely worrying set of observations," Beebee said via e-mail. "Amphibians are declining in many places all over the world, often in areas where we might expect human effects to be minimal."

The new paper concludes that while exploitation and loss of habitat are factors in some losses, other declines remain enigmatic, occurring for unknown reasons.

Overexploited species are concentrated in East and Southeast Asia where frogs are harvested for food, the report says. Habitat loss occurs more widely, but especially in Southeast Asia, West Africa and the Caribbean, it adds.

A major concern, the researchers say, are the enigmatic declines and disappearances occurring in North and South America, Puerto Rico and Australia."

http://jasperwildlife.com/Amphibians-Threatened-Worldwide-Jasper-Wildlife.html

Dear Kerryanne,

May your friend Rest In Peace. Thanks for the link. I tried looking at it - but for some reason my computer is very slow
this morning. I'll try again later this evening. I'm about
to go out on a few appointments shortly, so I shan't
be posting. I'll get back to you on this.

Dear Ammonite,

Thanks for the information on amphibians. The more we know
of the damage that's being done - the sooner something may
be done about it.

Dear Kerryanne,

I've just popped back in between appointments.
I've had a quick look at the site for your
"Australian Wildlife and Habitat Society, Inc."
Thank You for making me aware of this organisation.
It sounds wonderful - and very worthy of support.
I strongly recommend others to Google the site and
see for themselves. Congratulations to you and your colleagues
for your work towards preservation our native wildlife.
Bravo!

I am a member of the International Fund for Animal Welfare (IFAW). They save animals in crisis around the world. With offices in 15 countries, IFAW rescues individual animals, works to prevent cruelty to animals, and advocates for the protection of wildlife and their habitats. Last December, IFAW successfully released eoght endangered
gyrfalcons back to the wild in Russia. The birds were seized a month earlier from a failed smuggling operation in Moscow. Customs officials at Moscow's Sheremetyevo International Airport found the birds wrapped and stuffed tightly in a bag.

The birds were carefully unpacked and then brought to IFAW's Raptor Rehabilitation Centre in Moscow and cared for until they were ready
for release. IFAW has rehabilitated and released several gyrfalcons seized in Russia and hundreds of endangered birds of prey worldwide, most of the birds were victims of illegal trade.

Here's another positive... As part of IFAW's efforts to promote whale watching and stop whaling, IFAW conducted a "World Whale Watch 2010"
conference in Tokyo, Japan. With opening remarks by Senior Vice Minister of the Environment, Shoichi Kondo, the conference was well
attended by Japanese and international whale watch operators.

Participants attended workshops covering topics from investigating ways to increase support for whale watching in Japan to changing public opinion on Japan's ongoing "scientific" whaling.

In addition to showcasing the success of whale watching, this conference strengthened IFAW's presence in Japan.

As Fred O'Regan, CEO and President of IFAW tells us, the organisation began with a small group of people committed to ending Canada's commercial seal hunt. "It's been a long, hard fought battle but we are making gains. The recent bans in Russia and the EU prove that steadfast determination pays off." Over the years their campaign has grown to embrace, elephants, rhinos, bears, tigers, and whales under
threat, and of course, cats and dogs in need of loving care. 411
critically endangered tortoises stolen from Madagascar have been returned to their home. They were destined for sale in public markets in China. They were released into a National Park with other tortoises.

<< Surely we could do something to protect their habitats >>

We are, Lexi.

There is a lot of effort going into endangered species in Australia, by way of protecting habitat, captive breeding and reintroduction into the wild, elimination of cats and foxes, working out what the best burning practices are, etc.

And it is really paying dividends for some critically endangered species.

However, there are problems with this approach –

Firstly, these efforts need to be kept up for the species concerned. If programs stop, it all gets undone very quickly, in most cases.

Secondly, it could be argued that all the energy being poured into this sort of activity would be a whole lot more effective if it was directed towards an overall human sustainability regime whereby there was no further incursion on natural habitat. Sure, some of the critically endangered species would go by the wayside if we did this. But if it was successful, it would mean a halt to further pressure on natural ecosystems, rather than the continuously increasing pressure that is currently happening, by way of urban sprawl, agricultural and mining expansion, etc.

And thirdly, if we fail to address the problems related to the achievement of a sustainable society, funding for endangered animal and plant species is likely to dry up and be redirected into urgent projects needed as a result of our continuous growth antisustainable society.

<< If some different creature were to have the calamitous effects on other plants and animals that we ourselves do, we would undoubtedly consider it the most noxious and virulent pest to crawl upon the face of the earth.>>

Absolutely!

So we should be putting MAXIMISED effort into reining in this obnoxious creature and MAKING it live sustainably and in harmony with all other creatures on this planet.

Dear NSB

*do we have the right to extinguish species of our own volition?, as living creatures, we all have the same right to life I reckon*

Yes species do have the same right – agreed. The problem is most humans don’t. What I really meant was humanity is so cruel i would like to spare creatures of ours hands.People laugh when you tell them birds are equal etc.
We won’t stop people growing rice or tomatoes & I do not agree Australia should rely on importing food . I think we need to cut our population instead.

Dear Lexi & Ammonite

Thanks for those kind words for Keith & links.

I have long looked at IFAW to leave a large estate to. I have a friend & we work together on domestic farm animals problems. Together we have purchased properties and this is a lifelong plan to leave to an organization But there is so much domestic farm animals cruelty i keep going back in that direction- despite the interest in sanctuaries. There are so many organizations and so many problems for creatures.

The biggest problem is to find one that you know the funds will actually go to help *animals & your wishes will be honored. Like many others I have learned in life the bigger organizations are not necessarily the best.

There are some Buddhist monks doing great things so maybe we should track them down. That of course doesn’t stop intensive of exports. So much to do. So such cruelty from humans to creatures.
I tend to think we need a few more Damien Mander`s & co in this world. Love to send them to NT.

http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/blog.aspx?blogentryid=714606&showcomments=true

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/science/nature/news/article_1370640.php/Ex-Army_men_to_protect_tigers_in_India

http://www.australianwildlife.org/Home.aspx

Australian Wildlife Conservancy are an already well established
foundation with a whole heap of wildlife sanctuaries. Tim Flannery
is on their board. AFAIK they are doing a very good job,
with some serious money behind them.

Kerryanne

Excellent website. Deserves more promotion - will spend more time there when I can.

On species extinction, we really need to consider the effects when the top predators are wiped out, more sharks are eaten by humans than vice versa, we have destroyed habitats that provide the cover needed for predators (tigers), hunted out bear species for the supposed medicinal purposes of a single gland and so on.

"The loss of top predators, such as lions, wolves and sharks, is causing unpredictable changes to food chains around the world, according to a review written by 24 scientists.

These animals, called apex predators, play a crucial role in ecosystems, and their disappearance — often due to hunting by humans and loss of habitat — can lead to changes in vegetation, wildfire frequency, infectious diseases, invasive species, water quality and nutrient cycles, according to the authors led by James Estes, a professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at the University of California, Santa Cruz.

"The loss of apex consumers is arguably humankind's most pervasive influence on the natural world," ...

... The loss of these predators at the top of the food chain causes a cascade of effects down the line. The authors cite many examples, such as the decimation of wolves, which have since been reintroduced in Yellowstone National Park, led to over-browsing of vegetation by elk. The loss of lions and leopards in parts of Africa has led to changes in olive baboon populations and increased their contact with humans, which, in turn, has caused higher rates of intestinal parasites in both people and baboons.

“Predators have a huge structuring influence," said author Stuart Sandin of Scripps Institution of Oceanography at the University of California, San Diego, who has studied sharks' role in coral reef ecosystems. "When you remove them you change the biology, which is typically profound and complex. And in many cases it's not necessarily predictable.""

http://www.livescience.com/15051-apex-top-predators-loss-food-chain-ecosystem.html

We have many wonderful organisations as mentioned by previous posters, but while the attitudes of "greenie tree huggers" surrounds efforts to take concerted action in preserving eco-systems, we're fracked.

Thanks for your inputs and I am pleased to see that this thread is
still running. I value all of your opinions greatly and am grateful that you care enough to be part of this discussion.

"Tiger, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?"
(William Blake).

William Blake's famous poem, captured the majoesty and mystery of one
of nature's awe-inspiring creatures. On November 21, 2010, IFAW gathered in St Petersburg, Russia, with the leaders of 13 countries where magnificent tigers still roam the wild to finalise a global plan to save them from extinction. A point which IFAW President Fred O-Regan drove home during a rousing speech in which he highlighted the need to end all trade in tigers and tiger parts, to eradicate poaching and to restore and protect tiger habitat. As Ammonite pointed out in her post - the importance of these creatures cannot be
de-valued. Whether it's larger organisation like IFAW or smaller ones,
the important thing is that the work continues as Kerryanne stated, and that also - awareness is raised about the need to protect the planet and particularly the species on the brink of extinction.

on the eco natzie topic
i recalled about building 30 hydro generators
IN THE AMAZON*

the film was about the plight of the forrest people
and really was a throwaway line in it

[as they showed the biggest hydro
under construction..30 more on the way]

i thought it related to this topic
think of the many species going to die there
[cause the greenies are too busy helping sell the new tax]
and want to let unkown billions of litle besties DIE

i guess im more angry at the church
who IGNORES gods 5 th law..[THOU SHALT NOT KILL*]

why are you so silent papa
no more death..how hard a message to sell is that
[in this mess-age]..one neds thing has the church
gone too far..from its own rule book]

ie no ursury
no murder

love thy neighbour
that we do to the least[beast]
we do to the most...[dead isnt dead]
but the church and the green's church..is numb from the neck up

how to wake them up?

this carbon mania is murdering the amazon
once thats gone so shall we

demonic fools lead us
as the koran reveals...the demoic noise within..
has made them numb..

they allow unthinkingly
extreeme wrong..to be done

Dear OUG (Johan),

The tropical rainforest is an ecosystem that contains the most abundant life on the planet, with as many as 200 different species in a single acre. As soon as a road is bulldozed through the virgin forest there after, farmers or ranchers move in and burn the jungle to the ground, destroying all animals and plant life. The newcomers then try to convert the land to agricultural purposes - but within a few years, it becomes barren wasteland and the farmers move to repeat the process elsewhere. Despite the luxuriant appearance of the jungle, the soil in these areas is very poor. Rain forests have evolved over 60 million years in such a way that decaying materials are immediately broken down by humidity and fungi and returned to the plants, so virtually all the nutrients are held in the vegetation itself. Once the forest cover is gone, rainfall soon leaches the remaining nutrients from the soil, leaving a moonscape in place of abundant life.

for the reasons you laidout
the amazon's biggest crop
[soy..for those discusting soy latte's]
is doomed to fail..

so maybe the thinking is flood it
for the greenie cash..[payed with carbon credits]
nice clean green hydro energy...its great mate

http://landofthefuture.wordpress.com/
More concerning are the massive dams planned in the Amazon,

..PAC 2 plans over 50 hydropower dams
with innovative approaches to preserve*...

[aint that a clever buzz word]

just like clean coal became clean power
global warming became 'climate change'

and only 1000 will pay
became only 500..[making tony..phoney tony]

the signs are all there
but if its green it god

recycle means make a huge greenie bin
on top of the other basic bin
then we get green waste bins

so much plastic
but holocost deneier..that sticks

lets talk about the detail
so juliar talks about tony
[or rupert]..or anything but the huge fraud[lies]

what they want all them damm dams for?
http://www.powermag.com/renewables/hydro/Brazil-Approves-Hotly-Contested-Construction-of-Amazon-Dam_1620.html

""Among its most salient plans
is the construction of 50 to 60 nuclear power plants,..."'

yep green pride
clean green clean out
lord mokton maybe right

but it might be even worse than he says
you do know it takes acid baths and alkali baths
and huge water use

to make the poisen soy..into curd
and soy juice

background searches
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=50+hydro+dams+amazon&btnG=Search&oq=50+hydro+dams+amazon&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=275821l281451l0l284795l4l4l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0

http://www.google.com/search?q=hydrodams+amazon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belo_Monte_Dam

Ammonite

Thats very kind of you. I only just noticed it doesn't really show the enormous area- those big mountains you see are part of it.

I just emailed Keith Wife & suggested she may like to join the thread. I am not sure if she will - because its very raw for her.

When you get up to the top of the mountain its a close as one comes to Gods country. To Keith and Shirley this is their home for many decades. They have a cabin up top solar which was built long ago.

Keith was a very private non commercial chap, unique intelligent as his his wife.I recall many years ago Keith was very put out because the council built a bus shelter somewhere down the road.
He complained about commercialism taking over:) there was nothing else for miles & miles. Eventually he manged to get rid of the blessed thing as he called it.In my whole life I have never met better people. Keith's up there with his Animals and wildlife watching out.But I really must get some pics up-in the mountains its enormous.

Lexi Hi to you and thats everybody for the links.

Save The Wildlife




See the seals swimming away
The little foxes as happy as ady
The baby birds flying above
The lions resting with their cubs

The animals seem all so free
untill the humans kill as much as can be
why all this cruelty can't it stop
What have they done, what is up?

Save the wildlife, keep them from harm
for they are God's creatures, only charm
Keep them free, keep them safe
have some kindness in your place

Create Date :

Lucy Doyles

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/save-the-wildlife/

Lexi (Johan),

That what your both speaking of I saw on 60 minutes too. It`so outrageous to think they would even contemplate it. The people in US seem to be onto it but i dont know much. Do we know if $ has exchanged hands with the government yet? Probably but if not they should see if it can be outbid.

Yabby, yes the AWC appears to be doing very well in terms of habitat protection for rare species.

I’ve been doing botanical surveys for them for the last few years on Mt Zero / Taravale near Townsville. I’ve turned up several completely new species as well as known but undescribed species, officially rare or threatened species and big range extensions for quite a few others. It is fascinating stuff.

They appear to have weeds and fire management well under control.

Unfortunately, one of the key animal species for which Taravale was purchased seems to have disappeared – the northern bettong.

I’ve got to say that there seems to be a real contrast between their management concerns and abilities and those of national parks… unfortunately!

In fact, while national parks are certainly good for habitat protection per se, there is more than a grain of truth about some of the complaints from landholders that they harbour weeds and ferals and create conditions that are likely to lead to wildfire, which can then spread to adjacent properties.

These factors can also prejudice the ability for some native species to survive on these reserves.

It is highly unfortunate that the management regime just isn’t up to scratch for a lot of our national parks and other reserves. And consequently, some of the rare species that we would like to think are safely contained in national parks are not as secure as they should be.

*Yabby, yes the AWC appears to be doing very well in terms of habitat protection for rare species*

Luwig, thanks for that, it is certainly what I have heard. The
world is full of people with good intentions, that does not mean
that they get results. If we donate to charity then we want to
know that the money is well spent. AWC sounds like an organisation
which does exactly that.

Kerryanne, I admire you tremendously. I think you're quite great!
Thanks to you and Everyone for all your support and inputs. I
appreciate it all. I don't always remember to Thank everyone - but
believe me I do take everything that's posted on board and to heart.
(That's why I sometimes spit the dummy - to posters that I feel are not logical - ah well, I guess we're only human and if the right buttons are pushed - we react). However, I find that on the whole
there's enough great people on this forum to balance things out.
That's why I keep coming back. Yay!

Keep on posting - please!

I've just received the new booklet from IFAW - and was extremely pleased to read some of their achievements. Apparently the hunting of harp seal pups under 1 year of age, has been banned in Russia, thereby
saving something like 35,000 innocent lives a year. Also the European Union has placed a ban on seal products. The lack of demand for products is taking its toll on Canada's commercial hunts. Over 260,000 harp seal pups have been saved from slaughter last year.

IFAW's Asian Elephant Conservation Project in China was selected as one of ten programmes presented at the US Summit for Global Citizen Diplomacy in Washington, D.C. It was chosen from a strong set of nominees. IFAW's project is a model of human-elephant harmony in Yunnan, China, home of the country's last 200 wild elephants.

The Chinese government embraced IFAW's method of combining community development and conservation by distributing small loans to help farmers find alternative income-generating methods that don't compete with elephants for crop and land use. The local government allocated funds to support this model in the surrounding villages.

Last December, the utch Parliament passed a resolution insisting that
Iceland stop whaling and trading whale products if it wants to join the European Union. The resolution in the Dutch Parliament follows similar statements from the German and European Parliaments sending a strong signal to Iceland to end whaling.

Lexi,

I`m humbled but not convinced thanks:) As for the uplifting info on IFAW's i needed that.This thread is my sanctuary& after reading some of your other info- i actually slept a night!
Tried to put link up of another place my animal welfare friend & i purchased - but next time. Haven't been there in 3 years - pity & more funds needed to fight live exports& intensive farming.
Conservation & tbo are taking a back row to LE* IF. HATE the work but the plans divert to halal chilled & extensive Halal veggie farms for export to Saudi away from live. Its growing at a *rapid rate. Least that way we have say in Animal welfare.

Plan was to hand $ to rspca but now. Will find good people& fund them. Progress slow & frustrating.

Good news is most Muslims once involved are very active and extremely good fund raisers.If it fails- second plan u might not think me so great:)

Got thinking I could do an after life project. I came up with the coolest plan * i couldn't even get arrested:)

Even figured a way to carry out missions for *years. Find a lawyer stick heaps in trust- employ the right team and as A B C is done they get $ cool ah.

Meantime we need to hassle rspca again! to ask them to send letters to councils putting some bird baths in. We have another dry season ahead& many come looking for water.

I really enjoy your thread & it brings me peace to know there are some others who care about our creatures instead of sitting up all night plotting my evil deeds against live exporters.

One day Lexi the cruelty will stop towards animals. One day people will look back & talk about us as cruel barbarians. I know it wont make up for whats done but creatures will be respected as equals finally- *one day.

Goodnight

A BIRDS FIRST WORDS

If I were a bird, to utter my first word
I truly would wish to say you humans are absurd
With all us wonderful creatures: First, upon an un-polluted earth
You crowd us out, with too many a human birth
Then flock to the zoos with camera and kid
Our habitats ruined, This is what you did
Then fail to lay claim
our pending extinction:
Human population is to blame
When 'too' few a wise humans; in protest explain
The rest of you in unison resist and complain
If these humans dare to utter, without us animals you can't exist
The rest of you question: What are you, an activist?
The next time you visit a creature at the zoo
Ask yourself, without us whatever will you do?
C.R. Ying
North Carolina

Dear Kerryanne,

Thanks again - especially for the poem.
I wish you success in your work and
again - I hope to keep on reading your
posts for quite some time to come on this
forum.

"I never could understand
what prompts people
to take a drug
to make the dawn
seem more enchanting
or a sunset
outlive it's moment
of perfection -
I only know
the beauty God has created
is enough for me ..."

http://www.ucanews.com/2011/06/07/wildlife-rescue-scheme-a-success/

Wildlife rescue scheme success

Tribal people hunting wild animals

Wild animals in the northwest of the country put under threat by hundreds of mostly Christian tribal people hunting for food can now breathe easier thanks to a wildlife rescue scheme launched by the local government.

The Bangladesh Rural Development Board (BRDB), in conjunction with several NGO’s is providing poor tribal people with low interest loans to stop them hunting enable them to rear animals to eat.

The board has been issuing loans of up to 100,000 taka (US$1,429) since 2010 to tribal people in various sub-districts of Rajshahi, Chapai Nawabgonj and Naogaon districts.

Although the loans have been available since last year, the board formally launched the scheme on Saturday, to mark World Environment Day on June 5.

used loans to set up their own poultry livestock businesses.

It has encouraged many more to stop hunting thus many wild animals such as rabbits, squirrels, wild cats, foxes and various birds that were slowly disappearing have been saved.

“These people couldn’t buy meat or fish. So, they resorted to hunting which threatened wildlife. Now, that they can rear their own with the low interest loans, they’ve stopped killing wild animals and birds,” said Khorshed Alam, a BRDB official.

Some tribal people said hunting had become a traditional way of life, but things have become easier since they received the loans.

“I’m rearing chickens, ducks and goats at home with the loan and will never again rely on hunting,” said Robi Biswas, 40, a tribal Paharia Catholic.

Newton Biswas, 35, has gone into business.

“With the loan I set up a pig farm. I have ten workers and supply pork to villagers. I soon realized saving wildlife is our moral duty.”

The initiative has come in the nick of time according to Father Ignatius Bindu Hembrom, parish priest of Chandpukur parish in Naogaon, himself a tribal Santal.

“Hunting is part of tribal tradition. But they didn’t realize their food supply would end if all the wildlife was killed. They now know we need to create sanctuaries to save wildlife,” he said.

Dear Kerryanne,

Thanks for that. Great news. I've got some as well.
More than 30 wildlife law enforcement officials, police
officers, veterinarians and wildlife conservationists
attended a training workshop in Kenya recently to improve
their effectiveness combating wildlife crimes. Participants
travelled from many parts of Africa - Uganda, Tanzania, Burundi, Rwanda,DR Congo, Botswana, Zambia, Swaziland, South Africa, and Malawi, just to name a few places, to learn how to
identify and handle species commonly smuggled across Africa.
The workshop informed wildlife protectors about various
species smuggled by criminals, international regulations and
inter-agencies cooperation and enforcement. Agencies are
joining together to fight increasingly sophisticated wildlife
criminal gangs, who threaten endangered species to supply
demand for luxury goods, trinkets, exotic pets and meat.

Lexi

Thanks that is!good news.

http://www.care2.com/causes/court-approves-triple-b-roundup.html

Last week the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals lifted a temporary injunction and granted the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) the right to continue with the Triple B roundup in Nevada, which would remove around 1,700 horses from the range.

The Cloud Foundation, along with ecologist Craig Downer and Lorna Moffat, filed a lawsuit in the U.S. District Court in Nevada under the premise that the BLM had no evidence that wild horses are actually damaging the ecosystem.

The BLM insists that 1.7 million acres is not enough to sustain the 2,200 horses that are currently there and wants to bring that number down to between 500 and 900 and the decided they need to do it now …during foaling season …in the midst of a heatwave.

On July 15 U.S. District Court Judge Howard McKibben ruled in favor if the BLM. Rachel Fazio, who represented the Cloud Foundation, filed an appeal and a temporary injunction was granted by Judge Richard Paez. Unfortunately, four days later Paez, Judge Kim McLane Wardlaw and Chief Judge Alex Kozinski declined to grant an emergency injunction arguing that they failed to show that lifting the injunction would cause irreparable harm.

“The BLM puts out all this rhetoric and assertions about damage to the range caused by the horses and there’s not a single document in evidence that shows that is the case,” Fazio told the AP.

The case will be heard by the federal court of appeals on August 12.

Take a minute to watch this video from the Cloud Foundation to see what the BLM has does with these mustangs and leave a comment at the White House or call 202-456-1111 asking for a moratorium on roundups until the BLM can prove its claims.

Related Stories:

Speak Up for Wildlife: Stop the Extinction Rider from Passing

Law Would Leave Nevada Littered With Dead Horses

Wild Horse Death Toll Rises: BLM Plans More Roundups

Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/court-approves-triple-b-roundup.html#ixzz1T7q6BCQW

The Deer in the Woods


Lexi

Ok my last stop for the night as always.

<< Nature Poems (Prose) >>

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The handsome, wild creatures
Of delicate, leisurely importance and status,
The long-legged, well-built deer,
Graze beautifully and alertly
In the open wilderness,
The quietly remote and barren woods
Which become fazed and partially encroached upon
By humanity’s homes and technology.
The hungry, mortal deer, with their
Acute senses of sight and smell,
Are prepared to scamper and bolt
At a moment’s prescribed and deathly notice.
The healthy, vibrant woods provide
Adequate food and nourishment
For the easily frightened deer,
Whose survival and growth depend
Upon grazing in the open patches of wilderness,
And eluding the gun-toting hunters and predators
Who threaten to decimate their
Innocent, defensible, and pre-ordained existence.
©Tim Chiu

I'd like to Thank everyone who's contributed to this thread.
Especially you Kerryanne. You give so much to each thread that
you go on. Thank You.
This thread has exceeded my expectations.
However, for me it's now run its course.
I'll see you all on other threads.

as my family crest holds the head of the deer
i feel somehow i must reply

kerryanne said..quote...""The Deer in the Woods""

adverts deleted
deer antlers grow from crowns
the sybolic nature of the deer...'in the woods'
is that of the royal in us all being set free

but lets look at your poem
in the light of the auther..""©Tim Chiu""

[noting copyright..comes via the laws of heraldry
;ny other family totum is a golden horn]

""The handsome, wild creatures
Of delicate, leisurely importance and status,""

the [leisure]..lie-sure is the key here
being in the woods..the presumption is
your there being free..not to chop it down

""The long-legged, well-built deer,
Graze beautifully and alertly
In the open wilderness,""

there is good reason for this
[thats the dreaming of why i only hold the 'head'..of the deer]

briefly summerised as...the judgement carnivors..were sent to judge the grasseaters..grain eaters and the vegans..[god said be and in they went..doing the thing carnivors are sent to do]

anyhow the deer met them in his woods
and offerd his flesh to allow..others to escape judgment

out of respect the head was left in the woods...free
and as no old needed the soft parts[eyes/brain..tongue]
it was left in toto

at the next judgment..the deer bride[a golden ox]
gave her life...but..by then
there was many old toothless elders
and now the soft parts too were consumed
in fact they were so hungry...they even ate one of her horns
[thus only the one colgen horn..i hold traditional custady over]

""edited""

""The hungry, mortal deer, with their
Acute senses of sight and smell,
Are prepared to scamper and bolt
At a moment’s prescribed and deathly notice.""

mate once you know what happend to dad
would/could..you ever trust anyone else again?

""The healthy, vibrant woods provide
Adequate food and nourishment
For the easily frightened deer,""

now hang on

*i object

ok let it go
back to the po-ehm

""Whose survival and growth depend
Upon grazing in the open patches of wilderness,""

yes we dont need for anything
all the good needed things god provides
[darn why did i delete..that other bit..that has replaced seemingly the need..for the good nurture..of gods good nature]

""And eluding the gun-toting hunters and predators
Who threaten to decimate their
Innocent, defensible, and pre-ordained existence.""

the carnivors now have guns
i am trying to hold them off
but everyone is so full of fear
they have gone deaf/blinded by the spotlight..that will soon freeze them in place...why does media serve the gun bearers.fear adenda

the carnivors are back
this time they got guns
and plan to get it all...only gods good can save us all

and the churchie watchmen..lay there fat and fast asleep
oh well my brrr-others..dream on

sip on your coolaid
and take the red pill
it wont kill the carnivors..but just might make them ill

or just stop and think
who will be sent to judge the carnivors

Lexi,
It is I who think you for opening it together with others.

Thanks everyone and see you around

Kerry