*What do you propose to do about the Vatican standing on contraceptives ? *

Raise it politically as a global issue as part of the population
issue. Right now its largely swept under the carpet by
our politicians.

*They are not much different than all other major religions are in these matters.*

No organisation on the planet has done more to prevent birth
control then the Vatican. The Islamic view is quite different.
Note the effective campaign in Iran to introduce family planning.

My point is this: Raise C02, raise sustainability, its all a waste
of time without addressing population and cost effective ways
to solve it, which have existed for decades.

*What is it for ?*

Those quarter million a day go somewhere and its not in the sea.

*You admit that prices are low, but you still suggest to sit back and wait further. Why ?*

I think we should wait and see till it actually works in the real
world somewhere. We are in fact doing things, so I don't know what
your problem is.

*For this, we have governments with their taxes, subsidies and tax breaks or even old-fashioned regulations.*

That is fine if the results are real. Not so smart if the result
is alot of small business deciding its best to shut up shop and
take the thing offshore. Why are you going to slug milk farmers
with a carbon tax of thousands per farm? Would you rather that
customers simply bought their milk powder from the EU or US?

Dear Ammonite,

Great you have got back to this thread. Your initial input has been appreciated.

“reduction in birth rates tends to follow better educated people - another reason to aid third world countries”.

AGREE. A better education and reducing poverty pockets is the only fully effective solution to the problem, but I also agree with Yabby we need to do something in between as this will take a while. It is specifically so as we might expect rather more poverty across the globe as the climate changes progresses. The poverty is being also amplified by all other problems and related broadly to globalisation. For these reasons, I do not personally believe we might root out poverty in this centary.

“Not giving up, because corporate greed will eventually click on corporate survival instincts - whether that will be soon enough for the majority of us…”

AGREE. The government role is then pivotal before it is too late.

"Lock the gate”

AGREE. It is highly unlikely to win with exploration companies though “our home should be our castle”. The government hardly defends individuals (for the reasons we have discussed before in this thread) and if the farmers do not strongly oppose it with media support, they are unlikely to win.

With respect to the land ownership, I am not sure how it looks like in all developed countries, but you could “lock the gate” in many countries in Europe. However, such approach also has many adverse impacts, for example there might even be a problem with crossing somebody’s land with a new underground sewer or an underground power line. In justified cases (after a public benefit test), the subject land strip might, of course, be subject to compulsory resumption. However, it is not automatic and there is a due process involved. Why is different in this country, I do not really know (?).

“If only the energy industry would put as much effort into clean renewable sources... just dreamin' ”

Without dreams, there would be no progress in this world so keep dreamin’ :)

"we should wait and see till it actually works in the real
world somewhere. We are in fact doing things, so I don't know what
your problem is"

Yabby, it works in the real world. In Danmark, there is ~ 40% of energy demand from renewables. Germany plans to phase out their nuclear power stations and replace by renewable sources of energy. Scotland plans to have 100% of energy from renewables by 2020, etc. etc. etc. In EU there is broadly accepted ETS (but also subsidies for farmers).

Are we doing things ? Of course, we do, but we are substantially lagging behind the EU. Moreover, the whole world is doing too little to reverse the warming of the planet. You might wish to refer to references, I have been quoting before.

Rob, just because the EU rushes into something, does not mean that
its a good idea. Note the present financial disaster unfolding there,
due to flawed political judgements of the past.

Denmark got active on windpower after the 70s oil crisis, they need
to import their energy. Relying on the arabs was not such a good
idea. Both Denmark and Scotland are using offshore windfarms to
solve some of their energy problems. If you go over there, then
you will know why, its frigging cold and windy much of time.

To say that we arn't doing much is nonsense and more like sloganeering
by people like Ammonite, who are poorly informed. I subscribe to
the Climate Spectator website and get a daily newsfeed. Lots is
happening in Australia, at virtually every level of alternative
energy. Wind farms, solar PV farms, solar heat, algae, gas,
geothermal etc. But these projects can involve billions and it
is foolish to rush into them, without doing your homework properly.

Unlike Govt, which can pee virtually unlimited amounts of money
up against walls in the name of good intentions, private enterprise
has to justify its expenditure to people who volunteer to risk
their lifes savings. Given that you are probably a bit careful
as to how you invest your hard earned savings, like stick it in
a bank with some safety, don't blame others if they too want a
little more then a feelgood hairbrain scheme for theirs.

Yabby, you have already suggested several times that the use of renewable energy could generate losses for anybody who even tries to think about it. They are too costly, too risky and really unnecesary due to . . .

Your argument seems to be totally flawed and unsupported if we consider wind farms, photovoltaic power stations, anaerobic digestion / biogas plants or biomass-fired power plants which are readily available, relatively low cost and low-risk. Their performance has been demonstrated worldwide over, at least, 10 years. It is specifically nonsensical to say that Europe experiences the current economic problems due to a well developed renewable energy sector there.

I agree that renewables can not yet compete with cheap coal or oil. (It would be a different story if environmental and social impacts were internalised in their price or if the cost of recent wars for oil reserves were considered which have costed taxpayers ~ $ 5 trillion over the last 8 years.) We clearly need a proper economic valuation which encompasses all these externalities / impacts. Clearly, the financial costs are not the only costs we have to bear.

The potential loosers would not be mum and dad investors / shareholders as you keep saying, but rather mining and multinational energy sector corporations, but only if they were lagging behind by continuation of inaction and climate change denial. Innovation and leadership is always good in business. (Do not worry to much about multinationals. They can not be easily harmed. They rapidly adapt and transform, but there must be a reason for doing it.)

(to be continued in the next post)

Yabby, you say that there is there is a lot of discussion about renewables in Australia at present. The topic is definitely fashionable (though misinformation by so-called climate change sceptics is common). However, my view is again that just talking is not good enough.

For years, I have been participating in numerous discussions on alternative waste management practices (e.g. anarobic digestion of separated organic waste) to allow for departure from waste landfills, often in post-mining voids. Time has passed and progress has been minimal in this country. In the interim, the EU has, however, almost totally phased out landfills as a result of a mixture of economic instruments and regulations. The current discussions on renewable energy are likely to have a similar outcome. On the bright side, if we dig out more coal, we will create more voids for landfills !

Nonetheless, thank you Yabby for effort and contribution to this thread. You have helped me gather my thoughts and concepts together.