http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/nsw-education-dept-takes-over-child-care-20110601-1fftq.html

NSW Education Dept takes over child care
June 1, 2011 - 1:54PM
AAP
The NSW Education Department is taking over responsibility for all child care and early childhood education in the state.
The Community Services department, which used to have that responsibility, will now focus on welfare.
"Originally the aim was for (the department of) education to look after pre-schools," Education Minister Adrian Piccoli said on Wednesday.
"But what we have done is shifted responsibility for the whole early childhood and education and care sector to the department.
"It frees the Department of Community Services to do what I think the community really wants them to do well, and that is childhood protection," he told reporters at a child care centre in Sydney
The decision would also send a message to parents that pre-schools and other centres that catered for young children were not just child minding centres.
"We think that is the right thing to do because early childhood care is very much about education," he said.
"It's very much about play-based learning.
"There are professional, early childhood people who know how to use play time and to educate kids."
The broader objective, Mr Piccoli said, was to get as many children into high quality early childhood and education facilities as early as possible.
At the same time, Mr Piccoli said the government remained committed to reducing costs for families.
"What we want to see happen in NSW is greater access for early childhood and education facilities, particularly in low socio-economic communities, particularly within the Aboriginal community.
"Access to a high quality service means kids get a great start in life, and as they go on to school, clearly their performance, as research shows, is far improved."

+=+=+=+=

It feels like they want ALL young children as early and as quickly as possible in Day Care.

What does this mean:

“The broader objective, Mr Piccoli said, was to get as many children into high quality early childhood and education facilities as early as possible.”

"These are professional early childhood people who know how to use play time to educate kids."

"Kids" know how to use play time to educate themselves.....sheesh!

(no doubt will have more to add when time permits)

dear piper

recall how we have had so many changes,...[doc's etc]
this is the next step..in muddying accountability..

watch the word use care-fully
mandatory*

child care*
not child protection

you have to learn about the public...'lol'''...'ser-vice'

recall
you must go to this room
then that room

and eventually find it
filed under..not filed*

far as we are concerned
we have one more means to bring people to account

[they wont know the extent of their *power's...
till we push them to do something..
about the rest of the mess..

it begins by advising
remembering who was told what/when

then following them..when the 'respons-abilty'..moves on
then complaining..to their oversight authorities
when its..*more of the same

Jewerly this subject concerns me greatly.
I did not respond to your request in another thread because I did not want to take the spotlight away from murder and sexual slavery.
But the incoming NSW government spoke of such changes before they won the recent election, in a historic total landslide.
It had in fact been the previous government plan to reduce departments and put most things in one basket.
I found it a problem with those government workers I looked after.
I think the intention may be ok, but never not once, has any public service job been done well in my view.
DOCS sorry if we do not agree is useless.
History now but time after time kids are hurt because DOCS is dysfunctional.
Need to watch but an understanding of the reason my team got skinned alive in that election, the results of it, are going to see much more change not all of it will be bad not all good.

NSW, the new Sparta.

Your side of politics is running NSW hasbeen.
Given the immense waste public service presides over the Idea may have Merritt.
We, most of us, want better results in care of children DOCS has few supporters out here in Aussie land, they can not hurt me for being honest,but do hurt others.
Reason behind it for Labor and I think Barry is cost savings and hopefully accountability.
Those on the coal face,usually get the blame for public servants infesting offices remote from reality and those they exist to help.
Given the awful nature of my party ,given they have much to do under our good new leader,we know or should, Barry owns the bat the ball and its his paddock, lets see if he lets us play.

Poirot:"Kids" know how to use play time to educate themselves.....sheesh!

Chyah. But I remember 20 years ago the other mums insisting that children NEEDED daycare to learn to socialise. Those idiots are probably running govt departments now and have shares in the daycare facilities.

This “broader objective” of getting as many children as possible into education facilities as early as possible is making my skin crawl and I wonder how many steps this is away from making it mandatory and what DoCS powers are now in the education departments hands.

OUG:”recall how we have had so many changes,...[doc's etc]
this is the next step..in muddying accountability..”

Happened quickly though and I’m not even sure (beyond the odd spot inspection of daycares) what services DoCS provided in this area. But does this mean the education department now polices its own industry?

Bellybabe:”But the incoming NSW government spoke of such changes before they won the recent election, in a historic total landslide.”

Wish I could vote. :)

“History now but time after time kids are hurt because DOCS is dysfunctional.”

I know, but that is a really muddy pond they have. I’m pleased to see some pressure off them although I’m really worried where it is heading.

This bit: "There are professional, early childhood people who know how to use play time and to educate kids."

It seems the direction is towards only some people are qualified to parent...?

Jewely <"t seems the direction is towards only some people are qualified to parent...?"

Don't you know some parents who should never have been allowed to raise children? I certainly do!

The good old days of having all your girlfriends around with their kids to visit yours are mostly gone unfortunately.

Most parents work outside the home at least part-time these days, so unless the kids meet other kids via early kindy or childcare, they don't have much chance for other little friends do they?
Brothers and sisters aren't really quite the same as friends are they?

As much as mums/dads should ideally be with their young kids most of the time, it is also important for the kids to learn how to get on with other kids their own age, before being thrust into the schoolyard.

Once kids are old enough to really enjoy being with other kids, I have no objection to childcare, but certainly not 'mandatory childcare'.

Jewely I wouldn't worry. This is the same as the Commonwealth set-up, nothing new there for child care and early education to be under a portfolio other than Community Services.

It is probably a knee-jerk reaction to the growing criticisms around child protection in NSW but not necessarily a worse decision.

The push to institutionalise kids early on will be the same no matter what department has responsibility.

I notice no governments, State or Federal are offering any kind of reforms to aid people to stay at home longer with their children or better yet managing an economy that enables people to make a variety of choices that are not limited to the rich. Kids can socialise with neighbours kids, playgroup kids, kids of family friends and relatives.

What is needed is a good kick up the behind if the modern day thought bubble insists governments are now required to provide these socialisation experiences. What a travesty. Just another dissent silencing production line to churn out one-sized, compliant economically viable citizens.

It always brings trouble if we get to personal.
Give too much information about our selves.
Thinking of past posters.
I distrust DOCS.
Can never trust or forgive them.
I am full of fear truly held fear about the welfare of kids in care.
I am not middle class, once earned that income, but never lived that life.
Not trolling for good thoughts , just saying it like it is, I think we are too insular.
I think we must care more.
As a Nation a State /people/and as individuals, for Children.
I see DOCS as useless a very real danger to those it is said to protect.
I AM YOU KNOW still a proud unionist, but the deadly illness that sees every public endeavor fail needs heads to roll.
The mantra written on walls in every government department * nothing really matters any more *
Is so hurtful,so Strong and so true.
It hurts.
VICTIMS are those who should be served by that institution workers of that group and us who pay tax,forgive but I must tell you a story it took place 32 years ago,but is happening again today and tomorrow.

I was a different person dad had died mum and I had cared for 5 of my siblings.
Still had two and one nephew.
Police knocked on door 3 siblings of that nephew had been abandoned on the road side at 2am 200 klm from our door.

We kept the kids their mum kept the welfare for them.
In time mum got that.
I was a Christian, tried everything in my power to love and protect those kids.
Knew I would have to try to be a father.
They went ok bought school work home and I pinned it on the fridge sent them to Sunday school fussed over them did my best.
Three boys one girl we liked one another ,the girl loved me as I loved her.
Bought her two horses then it happened.
She got involved with other girls on horses half her age again.
It took a month,, my loverly niece not yet a teen ager full make up sexual activity's while older girls watch.
DOCS told us we had to trust her.
she could go out ,in full make up.
We said not until she gets older,just 12 then.
They took her away.
Set her up in that DOCS workers nephews home, he was 23 she not 13
they lived together DOCS did nothing in an Aboriginal mission.
Hurt?, she came home after a year, broken,I had to fight DOCS bloke got sacked his nephew left my home after he turned up in lessor condition than he came.
I was broken ,never let the world know tried to make it go away,but in time she went.
My niece, have not seen her for twenty years she is the victim 7 kids all in care drugs a dozen different blokes,every year,DOCS ?
I know Foster parents, my best mate is one they do well battle to see kids get a chance.
But in another place away from here?
This country must do better public service is hamstrung we do not get value from out tax.
We all must come to know change is not always bad.

yes belly kids DESERVE better
but we need a govt to make the public servants care

allows the servants to invest in their care
makes their life mission..to improve the odds
for those with a parental derilection..[growing up wrong]

making victims of victims
evolving from..to the hurtfull..or injurouse
then disfunctional..[the nanny state has got it all wrong]

drugs is a medical[not a criminal problem]
how many times we hear of 'drugged mothers/drunk dads
these shouldnt be sent to jail..but to health farms..resorts
taugfht to love and care..in drug free group's

no one has rights to hurt ANYONE
or even them-selves..we should ban booze
[or licence it's use....knowing the forfeit certain rights..
if abusing their licence to drink or take drugs..or eat too much]

you cant be half arrrsed in this thing
nor two faced

we got huge problems with people partying on
..the two party machination machine..of vilify and lockem up...or out

kids deserve a bit of extra care and extra thought
if one does the crime..the whole family must do the time

make prisons family friendly
only lock up non victim criminals
and kill or casterate the real criminals

heck it works in hell
lets see the mirth..[joke]

lets raise hell
right here..*on earth

being nice hasnt worked
let's ear tag the lot of em

if you chose to be a slave..well now
your treated as one..by all of us..

give em a forhead tattoo
saying child pervert
or whatever*..

that...*made them a slave
to a criminal..[not moral]..*sin

knowing/recognising..who they are
is a first step..

those ignorant
ned to be made wise
no matter what it takes
[or costs]..

Well, when I was a kid I could always sniff out 'educational' toys. Hated them and refused to play ball. I probably would have been expelled from childcare for not taking my career seriously enough.

There's something a bit warped about performance evaluations of 3 year olds. I got one from the childcare centre my kids go 2 days a week. Told me my kids were doing this and that like I didn't know my own kids. Read like a science experiment on my kids, and they were confused when I told them I didn't see my kids as some sort of project, and that I wasn't bothered whether they achieved their KPIs. They were shocked that I wasn't excited my child had exceptional fine motor skills or that I wasn't saddened my child was not as interested in structured play as some of her peer age group.

I told my daughter not to worry too much about office politics, and that sure the bureaucrats at the centre can get you down, making you jump through silly hoops and all, but any passive protest on her part would always be supported by me.

I told her to play on their culture of appeasement and encouragement of 'special needs', and to create specious and hard to refute requirements for them to jump through, like saying 'I need a drink every 24.5 minutes or my concentration will lapse'. If they refused I told her to give them a lecture on the advantages of hydration, and to question their professional dedication to her learning experience.

She seemed happy with my advise. She told me that the carers were just doing their job, and that the poor things aren't even allowed to contemplate thinking outside the square, and were to be pitied as mere shadows of humans, and more like corporate soldiers. I tended to agree.

Yes, but Houellie, you're one of those rare souls who doesn't wish to be homogenized. Most parents are overwhelmed by a fear that somehow their child with become a social misfit if he/she isn't institutionalized as early as possible.
As Suze pointed out, it's difficult these days to find a young child outside of an institution during the "working week" for your child to play with if you choose not to institutionalize your child.

But it's the pervading shift in mindset that is intriguing. Infants have always learned and developed by playing. That they don't need a childcare worker to assist them is apparent. Children develop by manipulating their normal environment and imitating the other people around them. Does it ever occur to us that small children learn from having people of many different ages to emulate and they benefit from one on one attention...seems somewhat warped that it's now seen as normal to herd them all together with same aged peers and then to "quality control" them to such an extent.

Nice one Houel. What is a KPI?

Suze:”The good old days of having all your girlfriends around with their kids to visit yours are mostly gone unfortunately.”

Nup they aren’t but I’m wondering why govt wants them to be.

Aw Suze. You can or you can ignore it until they hit the schoolyard – it’s all much of a muchness. Weird thing that country kids are very social, isolated households have awesome kids who socialise faster than lightening whenever the opportunity arises and start school at six no problem.

What the govt should be doing is encouraging a parent to say home (cheers Pelican) and to become a member of their community and introduce their young ones to a whole concept of neighbourhood. What I reckon is happening is the isolation of families where shared time with others is only encouraged within controlled environments. Little children taught from year dot to eat, drink, and sleep at certain times along with the rest of herd.

Bellybabe:”I am full of fear truly held fear about the welfare of kids in care.”

We have that in common Belly. I didn’t realise I had to be in fear for ALL children in Aussie though, I was only worried about one particular group and then the teen mothers got picked on but I can see that was just the beginning.

Interesting Poirot and I wonder what happens to children who have not had the benefit of a variety of people of varying ages to interact with and are forced into an artificial environment where the interchangeable adults around them are paid to care and there are more children surrounding them than is natural. Also they are alone, they are without a parent or family member within a crowd of strangers – I’m pretty sure the way humans have always stayed in family groups is comforting to young ones and important on all sorts of levels.

People used to feel sorry for little orphans in institutions but now we are being made to believe it is the right way to raise children.

'Most parents are overwhelmed by a fear'

The way I look at it, there were generations of creative, intelligent, sociable children brought up when children were 'seen and not heard'.

In that era, the people who were missing out were not the children but the parents. But now many parents are still missing out and bringing all this anxiety on the whole enjoyment of having kids by looking at it as a competition and being obsessed with their kids development and how good a parent they're being.

I think... monkey see monkey do. The best thing you can do for your kids is show them how to have a happy life, and invite friends over lots, and make sure your marriage is happy.

I always say you don't see many 7 year olds walking around who haven't learnt to walk and aren't sleeping through the night or eating solids. I just enjoy watching them, and their games are more fun to me than TV, and I couldn't care less if they're ahead or behind developmentally, and I KNOW that some of the happiest people in the world are as dumb as dogshit.

So for example that 2 IQ points you rob your kids of by bottle feeding because you're a selfish mum who cant cope with 4 months of mastitis and no sleep is made up by you being a happy mum who's enjoying her kids. The older ones included, the whole family is important, not just the latest little king or queen to come along.

It's all about control. People always think they want to or can control everything in this world. We're a generation of micro-managers. People want the governmnet to eliminate all risk in living and wonder why it's becoming less and less fun.

BTW: What if you 'socialise' your kids at daycare 5 days a week, but your relationship with them suffers to the extent that they wont come to you with any problems they might have with this social life.

'Nice one Houel. What is a KPI?'

A Key Performance Indicator. Ask pelican, she'll tell you all about them.

'Nup they aren’t but I’m wondering why govt wants them to be.'

I must say that my partner and her 'mothers group' are constantly clogging up the transport facilities of the rush hour workers in their endeavours to have coffee at the Zoo rather than in their back yards. Then I get the complaints about how tired they are, and I laugh and say at least you saw monkeys today, what did I see?

My kids wake up every day and say what are we doing today. Those kids are never home, I would find their social life exhausting. Luckily they have so much energy.

But Jewls, I think it depends on the size of your mortgage and income. I mean I tell myself even if I was paid much much less I'd just live in a cheaper suburb and live the same lifestyle, but maybe I'm kidding myself. Easy to say when you're on easy street.

Then again many of the time poor have much bigger houses than me and both parents work full time. Who's to judge. People get by whatever way they want to. I don't think it's for me though. I am not built for a career, and I didn't have kids to never see them, and I want them to have mum at home the majority of the time.

I think as a society people over value education. $20k a year in school fees is the biggest waste of money I've ever heard of. Now we have people saying 3 year olds need 'high quality early childhood and education facilities' and are worried about 'performance' rather than happiness.

So people think you need this, and they work two jobs to afford it, never see their kids and have them in care all the time then wonder where it all went wrong and why their marriage suffered and all sorts of things. I'm being cocky I know, but I really don't think performance translates to happiness.

We each of us know this is a complex issue, and hopefully this move is to make it better, maybe.
From within the consolidation of departments,representing near quarter of the state, of saw it start.
An understanding of what Houlie said is needed.
Those doing the job ,bad or good, are not in control.
A dreadful one, like the very real life one I spoke about, is free to be wrong forever, if they get on with the office boss.
Consolidation started because support workers in doors out numbered front line people.
The wanted out comes they told us, openly,was less office public servants doing more work.
A spiders web of PC cripples them.
Secondary, in my mind is a new way of giving kids a start, it probably came via Lathams rubbish read to your kid.
Mine read to me,even if I did not feel like it they never knew.
Jewerly like me, will know some parents are no help in fact not parents.
Worth updating my story,the mother of my niece is now living my life raising her kids kids, and doing her best ,some are hitting the good targets in school
And for the most part,females in my family are doing well in IT and such.
I will never know why, but given the task of running private enterprise child care agency these folk, most of them would do well.

Alright then, most people on this thread are obviously opposed to childcare centres. In a perfect world most parents don't really want to leave their kids at childcare centres, and the guilt can make them feel terrible.

What does Jewely or Belly think that most parents should DO with their kids when they have to work? These days many families live well away from other family members, and all their friends work as well.

Should all families send only one parent out to work, and then just 'exist' on one wage, the way the economy and cost of living is at the moment?

Yet, if single mothers dare to take welfare payments so they can stay home with their kids, they are vilified?

I don't like leaving young kids at childcare centres, day in and day out, however the Government would need to pay fairly good 'stay at home with your kids allowance' in order for that to happen any day soon.
If we then yell at people not to have kids unless they can 'afford' them, our population growth would be nil.

We obviously need to work harder at finding better ways to care for kids outside the family home, during working hours.

Until that happens, there is no need to vilify already upset parents who HAVE to leave their kids at daycare centres.

There is nothing anyone can say that would make most of them feel worse anyway....

Suze:”Yet, if single mothers dare to take welfare payments so they can stay home with their kids, they are vilified?”

They shouldn’t be, I don’t do it. I want single parents given support to stay home and parent, and one parent from households encouraged to be at home while their children are young.

Suze:“What does Jewely or Belly think that most parents should DO with their kids when they have to work? These days many families live well away from other family members, and all their friends work as well.”

You’re talking about needs over wants and I think Houel already addressed that. What I am wondering is the govt going in a direction of forcing all children into institutionalised care as young as possible and why the hell would they do that? If parents out there are truly feeling guilty about placing children in daycare maybe they will object to it being put out there as a compulsory thing. I doubt it though with people running around still claiming the kids need it to learn to socialise and now they have to be taught to play.

You really think the parents stop and consider if they are doing the right thing or are they doing the done thing? We make choices to live away from family, not getting to know who is in our community and we choose what makes us happy like a new tv vs a month raising our kids. It’s Aussie not Sri Lanka.

Houel:” A Key Performance Indicator. Ask pelican, she'll tell you all about them.”

Oh right. Sounds like complete rubbish. But that is why I want to know what DoCS powers were given over to the education department, because what if your kid aint up to their set standards?

Jewely, as I said, I really don't like childcare centres for young children/babies, but I think you are wrong in saying parents do the 'done thing' rather than the right thing by placing their kids in childcare centres.

These days it is nigh impossible to have even a basic living standard in this country if one parent is not making an extremely good wage, or if both parents aren't working.
Many parents have to move to other areas to find work, so saying they have a choice to not move away from extended family is wrong.

Maybe we could all see the error of our ways and just have one parent give up a job to stay home and care for the kids, but it would certainly be expensive for the Government to then pick up all the slack with increasing family tax benefits and welfare payments!

Children being placed in childcare centres has been going on for years now. Do we have any data anywhere about how the now grown up kids who spent time in childcare centres as children are fairing now, against those who stayed at home with mum?

I would suggest there wouldn't be much difference in their lives, all other things being equal.

Just like stay-at-home-mums don't like being put down because they don't work outside the home, so too do working mothers not enjoy being put down because they leave their kids with others.

Why can't we just all agree to support ALL parents and assist them to bring up their kids in whatever way their family can afford.

We should drag ourselves out of the 20th century and realise that kids of today are just as resilient as they ever were.

Childcare centres are private businesses, run by people who are as interested in minimising operating expenses as any other business owner. They are hard to staff and some of the workers will cut as many corners as possible. Consequently, they have regulations that govern every aspect of what they do. The original article merely discussed changes in the way that these regulations will be policed.

Over-regulation may be annoying, but some people cannot be trusted to do the right thing.

Jewely,
You are right to be concerned by the article.

Just because you cannot vote, at this point, does not mean you cannot have your say. Contact the Minister and request further information, sometimes the press get it wrong, edit out the crucial bits or put their own assumptions on what was said.

Then again politicians are devious. For example, Rudd said nothing about immigration pre election but the first thing he did was up the immigration dramaticly. They are not to be trusted.

You need clarifacation on this and exactly what is intended.

Mandatory child care for pre schoolers, no way!

Suze,

I don't believe this discussion is about demonising parents - it's lamenting the way our society is arranging itself into one big institutionalised entity.

Consumerism is our God. Our society has arranged itself so that nothing stands in the way of consumption. Our neighbourhood supports have disappeared in a push for centralisation, we are encouraged to institutionalise our infants at the earliest possible juncture, we own huge houses and multiple vehicles and every convenient gadget available to a first world country....these things are all usually obtained on credit and they have to be paid for.

Something has to give, and it seems we have now reached the situation where it is considered normal - and even desirable - to hand our infants over to institutionalised care

Suze:” We should drag ourselves out of the 20th century and realise that kids of today are just as resilient as they ever were.”

No they’re not and no they never were but yes they usually survive it. Thing is – how would you know if they couldn’t of turned out better without being in DC? Experiment on twins?

Suze:”Just like stay-at-home-mums don't like being put down because they don't work outside the home, so too do working mothers not enjoy being put down because they leave their kids with others.”

Who would put them down? They’re in a society where it is the thing to do without front braining it... Poirot explained why.

Banjo:”Mandatory child care for pre schoolers, no way!”

You know if you don’t go for all your health checks when you are pregnant it can be reported to DoCS? Now some women know how to be pregnant without help same as some parents weirdly know how to parent without govt input and private lessons from child care experts. What I am seeing is things being the “done thing” on many levels and people not questioning it. But yeah I will go off and try to understand what this article was about because the wording was creepy.

Jewely <"You know if you don’t go for all your health checks when you are pregnant it can be reported to DoCS?"

I understand where you are coming from Jewely, and I too am horrified at any talk of mandatory childcare.

We can't blame all Government employees and departments for everything. They are damned if they try to help families, and damned if they don't.
However, with regards to not going for health checks when you are pregnant, and being reported to DoCS, it all depends on the particular situation doesn't it?

If a pregnant woman has previously not cared for her children or babies prior to this current pregnancy, then surely it is up to DoCS to check on the health of this current pregnancy?
If a woman has drunk too much alcohol or taken illicit drugs during this or previous pregnancies, leading to fetal alcohol syndrome ,or drug addiction in their babies, then we have a responsibility to the baby to watch out for the mothers health don't we?

As a community nurse, we were on alert for a pregnant woman and her partner who had refused treatment for gonorrhea at an earlier doctor's checkup. As soon as her baby was born, it was checked for this disease and found to be positive.
Maybe if the woman had been followed up more closely by DoCS, she could have had treatment before baby was born.
I am all for any Medical or Government intervention that will protect children from irresponsible and abusive parents.

Suze:“...she could have had treatment before baby was born.”

That’s how it starts. With a sEEd planted (EE=Extreme Example) that justifies and convinces people how the vast majority should be targeted.

I guess me and you Suze see a number of extreme examples of humans behaving badly and the damage that does to children. But we’re also parents that don’t do those things and don’t want anything in place that assumes that Every parent is a potential abuser unless their children are constantly monitored by ngo’s..?

This child care thing I can see it building up as it has been for years. Govt supporting another profit hungry private business build wealth.

It started as a babysitting service for working parents then became an essential govt subsidised service for everyone and I reckon it will move into being thought of as a place you put your children unless you are an abusive parent with something to hide. After that thought sticks in the minds of society then they can make it mandatory by planting a few sEEds.

Jewely,
You said "It started as a babysitting service for working parents then became an essential govt subsidised service for everyone and I reckon it will move into being thought of as a place you put your children unless you are an abusive parent with something to hide. After that thought sticks in the minds of society then they can make it mandatory by planting a few sEEds"

You left one little bit out of your equasion. The bit where politicians promoted government subsidising child care to garner some votes. It worked and now is an essential part of policy and no government will take it away.

So now parents are looking for even greater subsidies.

The danger is what you fear. That politicians will progress to providing full day care and making it mandatory. If they think that will gain votes then that is what will be promoted.

I cannot even see the 'baby bonus' being done away with, which was Costello's brilliant idea.

'That’s how it starts. With a sEEd planted (EE=Extreme Example) that justifies and convinces people how the vast majority should be targeted.'

As with the feminist propaganda Jewls;-) Apparently because I view porn I'm an 'Amoral life support system for an erect penis', guilty of misogyny and destined to rape and abuse women my whole life.

'I guess me and you Suze see a number of extreme examples of humans behaving badly and the damage that does to children. But we’re also parents that don’t do those things and don’t want anything in place that assumes that Every parent is a potential abuser unless their children are constantly monitored by ngo’s..? '

As I was saying.

I see extreme examples of men raping and pillaging, but I'm also a man that doesn't do those things, and doesn't want anything in place that assumes that Every man is a potential abuser.

ie; The Challenging of 50% custody, the coercion to support White Ribbon Day to prove you're not a wife beater like other men, The 'violence against women (only), Australia says no' campaign that turns every violent domestic dispute into an assumed male aggressor model.

I just want to happily go about my life viewing naked women online with the blessing and occasional involvement of my wife, loving my kids while not abusing and raping and pillaging, without being a target of suspicion if I converse with kids in a playground that my daughter is playing with and to have the freedom to wield a camera anywhere around kids.

'However, with regards to not going for health checks when you are pregnant, and being reported to DoCS, it all depends on the particular situation doesn't it?'

Well, post pregnancy, at the early childhood centre, my wife was asked (matter of routine you'know) whether I hit her and whether she was scared of me. Sure she laughed, but I think I am justified in being offended. Easy for you chicks walking around without a weight of suspicion over you all the time.

Jewely and Houellebecq lament that all men and women are tarred with the same brush.
I don't want to see children abused or neglected by both women and men in our society go undetected just so us adults can have our 'human rights' firmly in place.

I am sorry, but I don't care how many adults feel hard done by by the increasing regulations involving children, because the adults can look after themselves!

At the end of the day, it would be a brave/stupid Government that brought in mandatory childcare. You forget that politicians have children and families too.

Houellebecq <"Easy for you chicks walking around without a weight of suspicion over you all the time."

Is that right? How about all the 'sluts' out there? All the women who are called sluts if they have sex with men out of wedlock, or appear to be 'sowing their wild oats', or dare to dress as they please, like the men are encouraged to do?

What about all the single mothers who are considered deadbeats, dole-bludgers, sluts and neglectful mothers unless proven otherwise?

If a woman stands up for herself or other women, she is considered a rabid, ball-breaking feminist, unless proven otherwise.

If a woman works outside the home and her kids are in childcare, she is a neglectful and materialistic mother.
If a woman stays home and cares for her kids, she is considered a rich, lazy, and boring mother.

Sometimes it's hard to be a woman... :)

Ah Suze, but you don't have government campaigns to affirm these prejudices against women like all the ones against men though do you?

It's obviously governmnet policy to treat domestic violence as exclusively a problem of men beating totally blameless women who have never raised a hand in anger or instigated a violent domestic dispute. Just watch the 'Australia Says No' campaign.

It's also governmnet policy to ask my wife if I beat her, along with every other new mother.

All men are under suspicion.

And just which campaigns like White Ribbon Day are women shamed into joining like men are. If you don't sign up for this, well, we know why. Stern look.

BTW: 'deadbeats' is trademarked and copyrighted for use with dads only. There is no precedent of the use of the term 'deadbeat mother', it doesn't even rhyme for goodness sake.

'Sometimes it's hard to be a woman... :)'

Hahaha. The downtrodden martyrs of society I call you lot. Ah, a woman's work is never done.

Men are obsessed with women, and women are obsessed with women. Just for different reasons ;-) Well, except for the gay guys; The truly free men of this world. I think that's why they get bashed; Jealousy. Guilt free sex, free of the 'objectification' slur, no cuddles afterwards, and a life devoted to junk food, sex, beer and sport. Yet they forgo the beer and sport and junk food just to rub it in:-)

Hahaha. I love non-government-supported prejudice.

Ahhh Houlie, the mainly male politicians haven't forgotten their countrymen!

The current campaigns about male depression, suicide, and prostate cancer etc are testament to the mainly male government still batting for the men of Australia.

Why would the mainly male parliament agree to this 'conspiracy' against men, regarding domestic violence? Could it be that prior to this anti-domestic violence campaign, we had even more of a nasty, unspoken-of culture of bashed families behind closed doors than we do now?

Bringing it all out into the open, rather than keeping it 'all in the family', has helped to save countless women and children from a lifetime of violence in their own home.

It has been well worth any hurt pride of the majority of men who would never contemplate violence against anyone.
These men have daughters, nieces and granddaughters who they want to see kept safe, or at least to be aware of where help is available don't they?

Banjo:”The danger is what you fear. That politicians will progress to providing full day care and making it mandatory. If they think that will gain votes then that is what will be promoted.”

So first convince people that is what they believe and want to vote for?

The baby bonus freaked me out early on – there is family assistance (a bonus in itself). I’m sure it made Sanyo, Phillips etc very happy.

Houel you are truly turning into one of the OLO mens club – just cruise into any old thread and make it about feminists. I don’t think there is thread about children or parenting on OLO that hasn’t turned into a gender slinging match.

Houel:”Well, post pregnancy, at the early childhood centre, my wife was asked (matter of routine you'know) whether I hit her and whether she was scared of me. Sure she laughed, but I think I am justified in being offended. Easy for you chicks walking around without a weight of suspicion over you all the time.”

Yep I got asked by new neighbours not long ago... but it’s the DV champs over the back of my house and it just sounds like it is coming from my home. Hubby felt offended. Dunno why because it wasn’t like they knew him. Maybe a thread on the different pressures men and women feel from the world around them might help clear a few things up and maybe you’ll see the men don’t carry more than their share of suspicion.

Suze:”If a woman works outside the home and her kids are in childcare, she is a neglectful and materialistic mother.
If a woman stays home and cares for her kids, she is considered a rich, lazy, and boring mother.”

Nah if a women has her children in childcare she is a caring mother who is doing the best for her child’s development and socialisation needs. Women at home must be the child abusers. Give that a little while to sink in because it is the way everyone will be thinking soon.

Houel:”...I love non-government-supported prejudice.”

Another thread?

'Houel you are truly turning into one of the OLO mens club – just cruise into any old thread and make it about feminists.'

Haha! Thought you'd like that. What do you mean turning into I've always been a card carrying member. Suze always bring it out in me when she talks about sluts like being a called a slut is some kind of horrific insult. Rather be called a slut than be assumed a kiddie fiddler and wife basher. There's also no law against being a slut, so obviously nobody reckons its such a bad thing.

I'm missing anti, and I don't think even Vanna's been around.

Suze,

'It has been well worth any hurt pride of the majority of men who would never contemplate violence against anyone.'

Sounds like you love a good witch hunt.

'These men have daughters, nieces and granddaughters who they want to see kept safe, or at least to be aware of where help is available don't they?'

Well, I have a cricket bat, and I could wield it to protect my daughters. Maybe they should stay out of secret men's business. We have our ways.

I think the world has turned too much in favour of letting the 'authorities' sort out our problems. I'm happier with a world when the police used to ruff up hooligans in the back of the paddy van and use more phone books (maybe the internet stopped that), and when bouncers at the pub used to make people literally bounce down the stairs.

I don't mind being given a slap in the head every now and then, just don't slyly drape suspicion over me all the time. Imagine if the government put out adverts to watch out for black people rather than men. To violence against white people, Australia Says no. Imagine if all doctors were asked to check with each male patient whether their wife nags them or whether their wife is a good mother and whether the kids are scared of her?

Just a little impromptu survey today.

a) How often does your wife smack the children.
b) How hard does she do it?
c) Does she yell a lot?

All for the kiddies of course Suze. You wouldn't be offended of course. Not upset they didn't ask the guy whether he did any of that.

BTW: Elected representatives don't represent their gender, they represent the voting public.

Houel:”I'm missing anti, and I don't think even Vanna's been around.”

Oh I thought Anti was here just a bit more salty and less septic. Vanna I am sure is merely awaiting the right topic to launch on.

Houel:”I think the world has turned too much in favour of letting the 'authorities' sort out our problems. I'm happier with a world when the police used to ruff up hooligans in the back of the paddy van and use more phone books (maybe the internet stopped that), and when bouncers at the pub used to make people literally bounce down the stairs.”

Move to my hood, it seems old school.

But you got me thinking. We let the authorities change too much and it goes from assisting to controlling pretty damn fast. Subsidised childcare was one thing and probably that step too far and maybe all we ever needed them to do was police childcare for us as they would any business.

Oh hey I found out what happens here when you withdraw consent for scripture classes – they ignore you and keep sending your child anyways. Used to be that parents were the ultimate authority, I can see we no longer have that level of control as all organisations and departments decide they know better. Somewhere we started losing charge of our own children.

Teachers can’t cope with any deviations and I’ve watched some weirdly controlling behaviour because lots of little individuals are actually and shockingly still acting like they are not part of some single organism that only moves and makes noise on command. Parents are considered a distraction to be discouraged from participating in their children’s education. Annoys the crap out of me starting at 5 years but now they want to start with our babies.

"Access to a high quality service means kids get a great start in life, and as they go on to school, clearly their performance, as research shows, is far improved."

What bloody performance?

As I said, performance is more important than happiness. Maybe they mean conformance.

We need a generation of good little consumers and working families.

I'm from the governmnet, I'm here to help.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

Houlley
You are quite capable of explaining KPIs as anyone. Don't drag me into your manipulative agenda. (I mean that in the nicest possible way)
:)

Jewely,

"What bloody performance?"

Good question - which I suppose is answered in edu-speak about attaining certain skills and behaviours in line with a standard of measuring such things.

You might know that we homeschool which in itself has been an exercise in taking back some freedom.....strangely, my son probably learns much more from his free-range activities than he does from our more formal lessons.The biggest hurdle was getting my head around the fact that he could seek his own answers in a self-motivated fashion.

I don't usually mark his work with ticks and crosses because I don't have the need. If he has a problem gasping something, it is dealt with there and then. There is much spontaneous discussion and he asks questions all day long without having to put his hand up : )

This is something that was still available to infants - and now even those first years of spontaneous self-motivated discovery are being taken away.

its been an interesting few days
of special intrest..was on sbs tonight
about emotions

it was revealing..in that certain points were made...
by supreme barsardry..where a little child was scared witless
where he was taught to fear the most harmless things..simply by aversive conditioning him..with loud noises whenever he didnt fear a harmless creature

it went on to other things re emotions
and conditioning...much i feel now has worked its way
into wanting to get kids conditioned earlier and earlier..

anyhow i just wanted to get this out of my system
its worth watching it on sbs ''in the mind'..emotions

next came that wheel chair guy with dead eyes
tonight mainly talking about doom..so cut that one out

last night there was a doco after lateline
about our old people...[or rather keeping them alive
by doing the most vile tortures on them...]..the key point ended up being we can keep them alive....but we cant make them 'healthy again'

and that was the big point
it is worthy of its own topic
it was called 'in the end'...its well worth watching..and considering the currant furore re animal cruelty...this program was FAR WORSE*

dying is easy
but dying with a machine breathing for you
through a tube cut into your neck...5 other tubes feeding emptying you..

[well you wouldnt SHOULDNT do it to a beast]
i hate MANdaTORY anything...especially not with child CARE
if its anything like emergency care...its the pits

also intresting will be this weeks big ideas
[the previeuw today..reveals much good thinking going on]
so look forward to seeing them tommorrow..

but you all [with bandwidth a plenty] can catch it online
anyhow seems this topic is done...and i got out what was bugging me

cheers eh

http://www.news.com.au/national/pay-up-parents-childcare-hoppers-rort-rebate/story-e6frfkvr-1226069469619

Our kids world wide are behind in education so going to learn and mix 3 to 4 days a week i approve.
Also gives Mums the chance to get a job to support their children
Win win.