davidf,
you are the one who keeps invoking Marx, so as to summarily consign him to the flames of your ideological incinerator. Marx seems to be your "king Charles's head"?
Marx's thought was corrupted long before the bolsheviks got to it, before he even died, and the Soviet outrage was based on a literal reading of Engels's naturalisation of Marx, which saw the "dialectic of history" as inevitable. Sheer nonsense of course. Indeed Marx famously said himself, a premonition perhaps, "all I know is that I am not a Marxist".
But of course being well-read in Marx you would know all this.

I don't want to discuss Marx with you either, as I've said before, but I will go on defending him so long as you go on making him your straw man.
quid pro quo.

Since this thread is about the reasons for war, and whether man has the capability of overcoming his warlike behaviour, I think this passage by Arundhati Roy is pertinent.
I realise it's one more belt in the direction of America, but it's difficult to discuss this issue in today's world without including the one surviving superpower.

Roy wrote:
"The policies the U.S. government is following are dangerous for its citizens. It's true you can bomb or buy out anybody that you want to, but you can't control the rage that's building in the world. You just can't. And that rage will express itself in one way or another. Condemning violence is not going to be enough. How can you condemn violence when a section of your economy is based on selling weapons and making bombs and piling up chemical and biological weapons? When the soul of your culture worships violence? On what grounds are you going to condemn terrorism, unless you change your attitude toward violence?"

I haven't been watching the news with all the hoopla surrounding bin Laden's demise... and whatever all the hysteria means, one thing is for sure is that it's a sure-fire way to lock the populace into a them and us mindset.

Arundhati commented on the fact that people might like to delve a little deeper into the reasons behind 9/11 saying:
"If you're trying to understand something, it doesn't mean you're trying to justify it. the fact is, if you can justify all the wars that you have fought, all the murders that you've committed, all the countries that you've bombed, all the ecologies that you've destroyed. if you can justify that, then Osama bin Laden can certainly use the same logic to justify September 11. You can't have a political context for one kind of terrorism and no political context for another."

note to self

johan
tomorrow get links to lateline
and todays public tv broadcast

begin clips
from the last one on public tv
[the one about the boat
breaking the dipwitt gadflie..*s's..*blockade in libia]

contrast this with the flotila sailing on gaza

[how does each colonising copntroling ss respond]

[compare mad-daffy's
attack on the libia attack
on an unarmed..civiliabn resque boat
on a mercy mission[bringing in stuff..

note clip..shows stuff being unloaded

wonder if they were guns[eh]
or a suicase nuke's

but lets get real*

what im really trying to say...is

recall them brave mariens..[26]
who attacked a sick old diabetic
protected by a few kids and two men?
killing the diabetic

WHY GO only...THE EASY KILLING...?

why not go..the hard one...*[gad-fly]
IE not a frail...ol old SICK guy..
allready in some prison

*held hostage
for all we know?

but look at them mug mariens..from the 6th
how would they have gone
*..offing ga-daffey..
[the one with guns cluster bombs
and 200,000 paid to kill mercinaries]

to wit not the half wit killed in foreign lands
[virtually dead..two guns]

why ya dont think..the would have sprung a suprise
on gadaffey..in libia

you know
THE ONES
BOMBING A MERCY BOAT

ok we know obama thinks troops
are there to die....rate?[@..8 per DAY]

why THERE DYING..
when obama
got a broken usa to fix...!

he needs the troop's home...!
to fix the whirly whirly [typhoon[cyclone]..damaged homes
that has blown away whole towns
AND THE FLOOD..

and upcomming big shake
[quake..san fran fault time]

USA NEDS THE SICK AND POOR
to come home..

so you guys..yes..you mugs woth guns
vote on who goes home...!

[yes you mugs in uniform...DYING

pick half of you to go HOME
to help out
with the upcomming big quake...and yellowstone breathing
ooops sorry the floods and destroyed homes

your cuntry needs you home

AND ITS YOU>>!
who tell us
who goes get wet..and splinters..[to wit
who goes home
to help rebuild usa...tomorrow
but back to film clip links

ok
then watch the fema clip
[hey fema got all them camps
move the floodes or blown away
into the camps
while the troops do their TRADITIONAL[and only duty
guarding the national estates[nat guard]..

come home

doint miss watching the s?pastic boxer
a truely impressive ATHLETe...[noting some rip off company near that clip,,has extra booty...lol..going to sponser[waste it on grand pricks racing team]

WHEN IT SHOULD BE SETTING UP THE SpASTIC KID
at real footy games..SPONSERING the kids intro sport

some with sponcer a fatty team..on a smaller pitch..give these a place with the athletes..[let thm be our true heroes

dont miss the spastic dudes clip
[i will get it for you in the morning]

then about three clips on latelind
in reverse order...while obvama gives the real order
bring in gadfly...ALIVE..now go

you better be able to explain

ps compare the gadfly attack..on the boat braking seige
to the israel sewioge braking flet going from greeze..to gaza

compare the misiles
to the boarding of the gaza fleet
but get gadfly..then we will see who next
only heroes ned to apply

heck send the same 26
tell them they know the mission

now go
bring home gadfly

find link
[how goes the nice word]..
gifted/blessed...disadvantaged...true...honest..gutsy

dont miss watching the boxer

and then watch the aqrab guy
talking real good stuff to kerry

oh dont miss the lateline business

and make sure to watch.."INSIDE JOB""
its huge..start there mr bailiff...!
do deals find every penny

continues at link
this following
a continuation...from the link
see link

just give me the one straight story line
from beginning to end

and dont begin it with
'he was in the watrers for 3 days
then made a video..in 2012

lets hear the truth
ie you didnt TRUST OPRAH?

strike on
[opra/

ball one
[obama..touring the cyclone towns..

home run
[the actual mission footage...
as cover for

see link
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4443&page=0

fair enough.
some media is changing

see link
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4443&page=0
but
not murdock*
he stink..[like the cheapest ink]

""so all the Innocent nice people
in the near and middle east.""

can become...OUR peskety..boat*people
PUT INTO PRISON CAMPS..here!
for being afraid

when we should be sending them back home..
in peace..to a sanctury*
in their *own cuntry...

THERE>>they get
our proection/imunity*..
and returned with honour..[and our ambasidorial/protections]..

*back INto..
THEIR OWN* HOMELANDS!

with...ambasidurial..*immunity

made our honerd guests..
in their own land

accorded..our..native title rights
then bring..the refugees home*..to their own propper home
and be leaders/healers..earned their way home

[peace mean people simply told to go home
let god take it from here
or else

take them home...*SAFELY*

.. the rest of the vision..lol
at link
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4432&page=0

belly/quote/

""so all the innocent..nice people""..!

..ME..
here they can go nuts..in prison camps
7.30 report?

imprisoned [on their own lands
like...[just like...*palistein..!]]]]

{&%$#@&*
hence,,,,!
...............the dare...!
see link
(*%&@#$!
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4432&page=0

belly/quote..

""My heart
is not in
..........the crying and twitching""

*nor is mine..ol sun

this is
..the time
..*of CHANGE>............we can really believe in

GHANGE>>>>*>>WE CAN CHOSE*
TO BELIEVE IN""
[0]

or indeed can collectivly...*grasp
*..with both hands

[we collectivly*

[all of us]
never had a better chance
to end war...and dictraiter ships

*..OVERNIGHT*

>>>..!

read link..

""I remember them dancing in the streets after 9/11""

and saw the same..in usa..just yes-ter/day

only protesting students real/cause..WAS*HIGHjacked
by special fema agents[there not at the floods]
or the cyclone

WE NEED TROOP"S
at home...now
but back to the 'dancers',,on tv

the...*save our teachers...protest group&*

/was *silenced..lol..[highjaked by them 'dancers'
and the cause of the protest was lost..[highjacked]
by clever media driven SPIN*

how gullible
you lot can occasionall be..[lol]

DANCING>>SINGING>>
right in front of white house
yes

i agree..WAR'ss lies.. IS ...SIC*
great redirection..

but whats
*the ONLY true/TRUTH

the one egsactly authoritive cettified true,,full timeline

*and seeing egsactly
what the pres

..YOU mr osama.obama big ban-ana...
let us see..what he SAW>>>!

and more
of the SAME media silence spin and spun lies
LIES..

in palestein too

so tell me belly?..
which dancing looks best?>>

the freedom one..
in..[peace
or the war one?...
in...{pieces?

""Just so happy
we have leaned folk..*
..like we do..

to keep us informed."""

no sweat bro*
mate..me too!

cheerrs
to you too

note to self
..but link back..to the link
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4432&page=0
need some links
..to this link

..at the other link
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4432&page=0

belly quote"""SCIENTIFIC FACT? arjay?
good grief!""

dont swweat on it ..bells
thats a long long..

many many
* years..from now

[millions..billions
of generations..from now]

buttt....er

what..*IF WE STOP WAR...NOW
we Are all..ready for peace"

agree
or we send in 26 men on a mission..!

with..*the eyes and ears..
of the president...wideopen..listening..seing what they 'see'..

first hand witness..!
him..via his mates..recording...your testimony

him..comming to you
only for him...to talk to YOU...
or hear or listen or advise YOU

he is..capable...of now being every where
his thugs go

not only to sick old boggy men
wife girls/boys and 2 men?
tweo sparrows
and 3 rats

SO
make peace
*now

or obama says
'game over';

and...*dont think he wouldnt do it

he should..would will or could

and who dares stop him...*

peace out man...lol