It is starting to look as though there is fall out at state level from the federal debacle. Pauline Hanson the reactionary lightning rod for anti immigrant feelings has benefited from the Labor immigration disaster and has pipped the greens for the last seat.

While this may yet change, this clearly puts paid to the distance that Julia Gillard is trying to put between herself and the NSW Labor thrashing.

Are you sure she has won?
Last time I looked it was not the case.
No surprise ,remember she was a Liberal candidate first up.
And that the Liberals are getting advice and e mails from them still.
Lets wait and see but Labor has far less to do with the lady than her conservative supporters.

Belly,

Since the liberals tried to jail her, I doubt there is the co operation you claim.

By making such a stuff up of the immigration issue, Labor might as well of rolled out the red carpet for her.

No heat no deliberate rudeness.
In fact Shadow Minister every word I am about to say is true.
I AM AN IDIOT!
True I really go of half cocked some times.
Driven by passion and a love of truth, I get lost every now and again.
WHY did I ever let you get to me?
I truly do not know.
I do not dislike you,honest.
I have some close Friends who are conservatives.
But so very lost,so very of the page are your posts here I fail to understand, ME.
Tell you why, Hanson won Liberal and Labor voters, her stand was against Asian migrants.
Howard is on record for his thoughts on that matter.
Abbott in another roll had her imprisoned ,but your team stole her policy's AND GET ADVICE FROM THEM.
Hanson is not over the line,Labor will be no more unhappy who wins we want only to win that seat but it is unlikely.
You are welcome to her and the greens.

to think she is taking it away from the extremist Greens is very pleasing.

Apart from the fact that I begrudge her the money (but that is true to a greater or lesser extent for the whole lot of them) I think that having Pauline Hanson visible, rather than just a virtual presence, could be a good thing.

It allows all those who share her views on immigration, Asians buying houses, "protecting" Australian jobs, longer prison sentences etc. etc. will be able to focus their attention on her. Having her policies open to formal debate in the House, as opposed to simply being disseminated through the press, is not the worst possible outcome.

And do we believe in the democratic process, or don't we?

Pericles, how dare you suggest that the democratic process should usurp the “authority” the commentariat?

There are so many people who need to be given an opinion on a wide range of very important matters; they must not be denied the opportunity to adopt an opinion from the excellent choices available through the media.

Heretic!

You're right of course, spindoc.

>>Pericles, how dare you suggest that the democratic process should usurp the “authority” the commentariat?... Heretic!<<

What on earth was I thinking...

If I remember correctly Pauline Hanson resigned from what was left of
One Nation.
That was something else that Julia Gillard lied about.

However do you realise that the reason Pauline was so controversial was
not because she was wrong but because she was right !

You know, the biggest rows are always around propositions that are
politically incorrect or right against what a majority believe.

Now even Tim 1000 years Flannery is in trouble for telling it as it is.
Oh well if you didn't laugh you would have to cry !

Belly,

While I have considered you misinformed, the pathetic attempt to link PH's policies to the liberals is deliberately false.

As soon as PH's virulent ideals came to the surface, she was expelled from the liberal party even though she had won a seat on the liberal ticket.

I personally don't like extremists such as PH or the greens, but with Juliar beholden to the greens and effectively unable to proceed with her promise for an offshore processing centre, the train wreck that is the immigration policy is causing great frustration amongst ordinary citizens who are voting for PH as a protest vote.

The Liberal Party had her jailed not for any altruistic crime-fighting motives but purely because she was eroding the Conservative support base.

That is what the Coalition thinks of the democratic system?

Whether you like her or not is a matter for the voters in her electorate.

The only positive thing about PH's election is she will be one of the few politicians that will not be afraid to rock the flavour-of-the-day policies in regards to expanding foreign ownership of agricultural land, utilities, water infrastructure etc, sale of public assets, population growth and one-sided (and so far not-open-for-negotiation) FT policies.

Although it is doubtful there will be much influence from a State Upper House seat.

The negative aspect is that all the good stuff she might potentially inject will also mean more of the racist commentary and little understanding of what it means to be a minority.

Well, I think the people of NSW deserve Pauline, and thank you all for taking her off our hands here in Qld.

But what happened to her flight-to-Blighty?

Probably noticed how multicultural that nation is, far more so than OZ, even though politicians here think it is an Australian invention, and 'unique'.

Belly, what about Keneally getting a leg-up into Garrett's seat (while he gets dumped-good oh), aided by the rightwing unions (there are no others these days of course) in NSW?

Will replacing one xtian fundie with another really benefit the ALP?

It might improve the NSW state branch, of course, but what 'progress' will there be overall?

Let's not forget also Belly, that the ALP under Beazley adopted most of the Coalition attitudes towards refugees, never mind the comments Whitlam made years before that.

There are no innocents-in-politics, they are all grubby and dishonest individuals who pander to the lowest in society, from CEOs to mullet-headed Westies, from war mongering fake xtians to careerist academics not the least bit interested in running educational institutions as if they were worth something, never forgetting the one-true-faith in Oz, the Sports Boof, who gets a shovel load of support while schools fail to get anything useful.

The votes lie in lies, in deceits, in iggerance-for-the-masses (and from the masses too).

But one thing I think most of us can agree on is this: there will be no real change in NSW under this 'new' regime. Services will be cut, taxes will go up but not for the wealthy, public schools will close to boost 'private' ones, trains will never work in NSW, the ferries will be sold off and sink like the UK and Victorian train systems did when gifted to the 'clever' CEOs in private industry, life will continue as usual in NSW, funded by developer largesse.

Pauline Hanson winning an upper house seat? I'll believe that if and when it happens! Still, I suppose if you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're going to get - selfish, ignorant, members of parliament. We should never under-estimate the power of idiots in large groups - although I would have thought that her ideas no longer resonated with the majority of people. As far as I could tell - all
she's been good for lately is "Woman's Day" fodder.

Thanks SM your view I am lie telling impresses me.
Tell you what folks
Hanson is not going to win that seat.
So storm in a tea cup but put me on record she is not going to be there.
Now here is your chance to prove me wrong SM, care to bet?

Oh dear Belly, does that mean we still have to offer her home and hearth back here in Qld?

Perhaps she can blow sparks into a love-affair with D. Oldfella, the shock-jock you all like so much in NSW, the chap that Tony Abbott gave a start to in politics?

Oh yes SM, remember who gave all this such a good boost along?

Not only did the Liberals create Pauline in a general sense, some of us can recall the 'good work' Tony Abbott did in encouraging Oldfella in the world of politics.

Of course, later, as the cock crowed three times, Abbott would turn his back on his chum Oldfella and try to do him down.

Politics! It's such FUN.

Blue cross............why more people don't listen to you is beyond me:)

Its like serial dictators.....none of them make any sence. If this PH has the stuff, or maybe more Hollywood than any-thing else........perhaps the silents of the lambs, and the big multiculturalism spell, may have worked better than we could of anticipated. Just one more thought..........how and who gets the chunkiest parts, of the tax-payers money? ( Iam just laughing at belliess..attacks on the poor....and what poor from, may I just add.:)

Does "Polly"tics WANT A CRACKER.

Wasn't the people that are the running's?, aren't they the biggest ones?:)

My mother/father always told me... with what ever I do....be true to your self, and to all others.

It still give me the greater sence of direction.

LEAP

So I guess that makes it one win followed by seven straight losses in a row.

She's not coming to save us from ourselves after all.

She's not the Messiah, she's just a very naughty person.

Belly, Pelican, et al,

To clarify some misconceptions deliberate or otherwise, PH is no friend of the liberals, neither does she advise them, nor does she share the same values. As a liberal supporter I get no satisfaction from her possible success.

The fringe parties such as the greens and PH do well on the protest vote, not because most people share their values, but because people want to send a message that a particular issue can't be ignored (shooters and fishers party etc)

The message is clear that the immigration debacle is not acceptable, and PH is the megaphone.

Belly, as for that bet, I did say that it was looking like PH would win the seat, but as the preference votes are a wild card, the greens will get Labor preferences, but PH is renowned for picking up preferences. I would say she has about a 60% chance. Good, but not good enough to put my reputation on the line.

Best of luck, Pauline, not being a Green will make you an asset to any Parliament.

Pauline will never be as plain nasty, vicious or hateful as that horrible red headed thing inhabiting the lodge right now. If ever there was a reason to call a vermin exterminator she's it.

I'll take an honest woman in preference any time.

Aha Hasbeen!

So, now we all know. It was you holding 'that' banner, the one that Abbott strode in front of to soak up those rays-of-bile beaming out of it towards the Conservative-Atheist-Baptist eh?

Truth will out, old chap.

Unfortunately not blue, there is nothing on earth that would get me to set foot in that den of inequity called Canberra.

Noisy crowds are normally something for the lefties to indulge their mindless "what do we want" etc, & not my cup of tea at all.

Even if you promised I would be allowed to impale all the current senior Canberra planners, & public servants on the parliament house flag pole it would not do the trick, but just may be getting close.

So sorry mate, you did not get the privilege of gazing upon my countenance, but keep your hopes up, it may happen one day, if you are lucky.

I know what you mean Hasbeen, 'a good sheep paddock, ruined' as they say.

Act One:

...I was once a true and traditional Labor supporter federal and state. There began a change in the period of Keating and Hawk, and as my support for Labor took a slow and painful slide downhill, more causal to an awakening of Labors own new dawn of “pink” liberalism, heralding an abandonment of cultural traditions, but more seen by me as a pink “hew” cast by the rays of the setting sun of usefulness and trust, landing it ingloriously at the base of the calamitous cliff of NSW last weekend, an undignified and abysmal failure to its loyal supporters past and present. The only saving grace for Labor in fifteen years or so was the larger than life master of wedge politics, Howard. Howard unwittingly saved the Labor party from itself by dividing Australia into a definite and distinct strata of a two party camp lacking choices; but the fires have burnt themselves out in both camps, and as Abbot is joined by O’Farrell , with his nasty and vindictive gaggle of Liberals, hang out for another undeserving term of feeding their mates at the trough of upward wealth redistribution, being the only beholden tradition of the Liberals past present and future.

Act two:

...With sensitivity hewn to a fine edge by many past years of dumbing down experience of political disappointments to fall back on, I cast my vote for Pauline Hanson, as did many others it seems. But don’t think for one second that my vote was given with any expectation of reward of policies; I have long ago learned that there is but one policy applicable to both parties, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer; the common policy. No, I don’t give a “tinkers damn” about policies or lack of them from the damsel of fish and chip shop fame, she aspires to none other than the raw honesty of electability and a desire to serve the disenfranchised like myself. I just want the simplicity of raw justice metered out! I vote with the burning vindictiveness born from acts of treachery, double cross and lies, to see both “majors” of the mafia dictate bloodied and humiliated, then I rest.

Better an even second-rate Labor Government than a first rate pack of opportunists who look down on most of their constituents as factory fodder for their power base and use social division, racism and personal smear as a political tools.

Even if Hanson somehow crawled across the line, what could she possibly do about any of those things she rants about from the Upper House of a Government monopoly controlled Parliament, except foster even further division and racial hatred?

The academic, bureaucrat, leftist factions will never be able to understand pragmatic thinking. It's not in their scope. All the thinkers can do is to ignore them.
Paline Hanson is not just saying things. She is stating what most of the electorate feel. She is not the one making inflammatory statements. The wharped left is employing experts in the field of distorting facts. Just imagine the mentality of those who condemn someone who wants to save this country from being sent to oblivion by fanaticism & mindless morons. The decent's fight now is against stupidity from within.

If she gets in she'll be up there with the Shooters and Fred Nile controlling the Legislative Council.

That will make at least four honest politicians in the upper house in NSW.

Wobbles,

A second rate Labor government would be a breath of fresh air. Neither the Federal Labor under Juliar or State Labor can claim to be any where near competent.

The purpose of Pauline Hanson is to say things that are not politically correct, but that many people are thinking. Like the greens, One Nation can never be main stream as their ideas are fringe and would be disastrous if implemented.

Luckily Labor and the greens together cannot block legislation, so her vote would not be needed.

Adolf said what many people were thinking. He was VERY popular, and the middle classes and working classes flocked to his side.

When they looked around it was clear to all these prgamatic, clear-headed people, these God fearing Christians who loved their friend Jesus, that the solution was to 'throw the Jew down the well'.

Which they set about doing, very efficiently, as only a Germanic mob could do, and everything was fine ever after.

We should take a leaf out of their book, eh?

Led by our honest Christian leaders in the Upper House, backed up by the clear headed Shooters and Mrs Hanson?

As I recall my history memories of NSW, it was the state where the neo-Fascists very nearly got off the ground during the Depression.

Read the fictional story in Kangaroo, it's close enough to the truth.

Read the real story in the history of that state.

See it in action in the current political climate, in NSW, and gathering pace throughout Australia, contributed to by both sides of politics, as our miserable politicians fail in their self-imposed task of 'leading' us all.

You lot can speak well of Hanson and her ilk, I'll stick to my history lessons and be fearful of what happens when pig-iggerance is accepted as 'wisdom'.

Why not just ask Alan Jones and his spiteful nitwit radio colleagues to run the nation, and be done with it.

A wealth of wisdom pours out of his gob every day, after all.

I wouldn't have thought that "thinking" is an activity particularly characteristic of Hanson supporters.

TBC,
The thinkers have learned from the mistakes/misdeeds by the Hitler hijackers & the result is rather more wisdom than can be claimed by fence sitting lefties.

individual,

"....the result is rather more wisdom than can be claimed by fence sitting lefties".

Please explain?

Are they sitting on the fence or are they lefties? Or were you just throwing out random combinations of labels that you consider to be derogatory, hoping that nobody would notice the contradiction?

To have to explain is always a sure indicator that the explanation is a waste of time. A fence-sitting leftie is someone who votes conservative after Labor has squandered the dough. Then, when enough has been put away by the better Government the leftie votes Labor again to their hands on more handouts. It's a historical fact.

Hanson: that was the upper house vote…

…But in the lower house I cast a vote for a representative with brains enough to advertise loudly, he would not be passing-on preferences. Bingo, he got my vote on the strength of that promise.
He came a close second, but was clipped by the local National candidate; good and honest, (wait for it) working class boy dragged up by the boot straps, if you can believe his spiel. Now, he is to my mind, either a comic or a sadist, take your pick. So in the new age, the self-proclaimed working class throw in their “lot” with Country Party and win a seat. Have I missed something more profound than just the glaring incongruous?

"She's stating what the electorate feel"?

No, she's stating what less than 2 percent of the electorate feel.

Individual makes up his/her own historical factoids to suit the situation.

No 'leftie' would vote conservative, although many who pretend to be 'left' do vote Labor, which is tantamount to voting 'conservative'.

In fact, the ALP IS a conservative party, and has never been 'left'.

Poor Lenin nearly choked on his tea when writing about the ALP being a tool of the ruling class.

Just look at their hero, Whitlam, the first neo-con of the modern era.

@ diver dan:

It's a real pity that so many voters don't have "brains enough" to know that it is they who allocate preferences, unless they're lazy enough to vote above the line.

morganzola... they are the goons who vote for Hansonites and the xtian dem porn watchers.

They suffer from a 'synaptic gap' problem, lacking the vital 'other side' to send a spark across to.

Rache and others,

Other than a small minority that agree with PH, the votes for her are not in the expectation that she will wield any real power, or even that they agree with everything that she says, but as a signal to say that what is happening on immigration is not OK.

The message is clear. The Labor immigration policy is a complete fiasco, the East Timor off shore processing centre was never a real consideration, and that this is just more of Juliar's BS. Juliar has no intention of changing anything and just hopes the problem will go away.

SM

A vote for Pauline IS a vote for Pauline and all she stands for.

Trying to pretend it is some sort of 'clever statement' is plain silly.

There are many people who like her and believe every word she utters.

But they have the courage to state that and stick by their belief.

Did I hear the cock crow three times as you posted?

Dear Shadow Minister,

It has been reported repeatedly and discussed with various authorities
on world migration that Australia does not take its fair share of refugees per capita of population compared with many countries in the Americas and Europe.

It does appear that the Opposition is unable to present any positive policies or action in the interest of the nation and will like yourself, grab at straws to upset the unthinking section of our population. The so called "Pacific Solution," fizzled out when world catastrophies and wars diminished. The world situation has changed - and is still in flux particularly in the Arab regions. Refugee numbers will continue to grow no matter what government is in control. Fear mongering is a demeaning weapon to resort to to gain favour. Its practised by radio "shock jocks" and bullies but one would expect a higher code of behaviour from our elected politicians.

How about you instead of persisting in your critique of government policies - offering some positive solutions to the global refugee problem and what role Australia should play? And please don't bring up the old chestnut of "Nauru." Why can other countries handle the problem and we simply complain and blame each other?

Lexi,

That is what Labor would like us to believe. Unfortunately according to the UNHCR the world total of refugees has dropped about 5% from 2008/9 to 2009/10. Just the number coming to Aus has increased.

The pacific solution worked, the numbers speak for themselves, as they do for the failure of the labor policy.

I have heard nothing from the ABC. Does that mean Pauline has won? I have heard even less from the earth worshippers. Does that mean they have lost?

Lexi, all they have to do is loan me & a few old navy mates one of the old patrol boats for a few of months, & I'll bet the boats stop coming, at least coming this far.

Oh, & I don't know what you are reading your propaganda from, but we take the highest percentage of refugees per capita of any developed country, & pay the highest resettlement costs to boot.

Morganzola:

...You display ignorance to the voting system. The upper house vote has the facility to apportion preferences as a voter choice.(A vote above or below the line) Not so when voting for the lower house (Representatives). If one wishes their vote not to be apportioned to the personally undesirable, one must be careful which way representative candidates apportion preferences. It’s a trap to keep the two party system healthy!

...That makes you half right at least: And was the reason for my vote for Hanson. As I explained in detail above your post, I voted for Hanson, not for any policy agreement, but strictly for protest purposes. Repeat, I don’t give a “tinkers Damn” what she stands for, that point, under the circumstances as I explained, is totally irrelevant to me.

...Hanson is not a person armoured to Abbot, who actively supported her persecution and imprisonment (over a technicality). She is a woman who has lived through the extreme of political unacceptability of both major parties; Abbot displays his vindictive intolerance of lesser mortals on his sleeve again with further cowardly attacks on the most vulnerable in our communities for nothing more than votes. He is really a careless fool, and I make 100% sure, no vote of mine directly or indirectly lands in his lap

Hmmm, I think a lot of people misread Pauline Hanson.
Originally she was very naive, but I think that changed in the school
of political hard knocks.
Everyone took up the story she was migrating to the UK.
Do people still believe what the media tells them ? I don't !
Turned out she was going on a holiday to the UK.
Did she sell her place in Ipswitch, take a holiday and then buy
a place on the Nth Coast ? Seems possible.

Is she still a member of One Nation ?
I thought I read a few years ago that she resigned.
She seems to have minimal education, but then so do a lot of clever people.
A lot of well educated people confuse education with intelligence.

I suspect she is not the source of evil of which she has been accused.
She had a friend whom she employed in her shop that was a Philipino.

If she gets in it will be interesting to see what she has to say.

Hasbeen:

...Something more constructive is the simple answer to illegal immigration (boat people)!

...Lets look to the Americans who have been dealing with the problem longer than most; at least more realistically than most, being the major partner of the porous Mexican border.
Australia is foolish not to follow the simplicity of our American cousins. We can solve the illegal immigration problem, the skill shortage problem, high wages impact on inflation problem, and (sort-of) comply to our treaty obligations with the UN by offering a limited “corridor” entry visa. This is simply achieved by not offering citizenship to illegals at all.

...This type of visa will offer the right to work at negotiated rates in factories alongside Australian residents, providing the impact to the locals is negligible and can be seen not to impact on wage levels necessary for the local permanent population.

...If we are smart, Australia could restart its manufacturing base by capitalising on this cheap labour and keep illegals happy; keep Australia supplied with a continuous supply of cheap labour for industry; allow Australia to continue with its welfare system as it exists, (which includes paying retirees liveable benefits), and Julia can continue parading around looking like she is half useful and successful.

Dear Hasbeen,

I get my information from the Parliamentary Library in Canberra. Which to most people is considered a reputable source but of course to you it's "propaganda." Not all of us rely on what the radio "shock jocks" tell us or what the Opposition has to say.

Try googling "Boat arrivals in Australia since 1976" and under the table of contents clicking onto the chapter entitled, "A balancing
act." You may actually learn something. Although I'm not going to hold my breath.

@diver dan:

In the lower house, you had the option of just voting 1 for the candidate of your choice (in which case your vote is exhausted as soon as that candidate is eliminated and therefore is not directed towards any other candidate). Otherwise, you had to number each candidate in order of preference, which you can do on the basis of thinking about it, or by following the how-to-vote card of your favoured candidate. It's called optional preferential voting, and it's up to you whether or not you wish to allocate preferences and where they go.

I think maybe you need to do something about your own "ignorance of the voting system".

the Parliamentary Library in Canberra.
Poor Lexi, do you really rely on that outfit for factual info ?

Individual is a fan of Alan Jones, the John Laws of intelligence.

PS.

As preferences come in, it is starting to look as though the seat will go to the greens, so this has been a moot discussion, but still interesting.

Not only that, but the Greens have just claimed the lower house seat of Balmain from Labor. It appears that the snide triumphalism of those who are terrified by the steadily increasing electoral support for the Greens was just a tad premature.

Given Labor's duplicity and untrustworthiness, the Greens are eating into Labor's socialist latte sipping flank.

The working class suburbs are now richer, and have more to protect from Labor's costly incompetent attempts at social engineering.

State Labor has been almost completely obliterated, and Federal Labor unless they can chalk up some wins that benefit their electorate face the same in 3 years.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Is this the best you can do? You remind me of the joke about the
non-conforming sparrow who decided not to fly south for the winter. The weather soon turned so cold that he changed his mind. however, in a short time, ice began to form on his wings and he fell to earth frozen solid. A cow passed where he had fallen and crapped on the little sparrow. He thought it was the end, but the manure warmed him and defrosted his wings. Warm and happy, and able to breathe, the little sparrow started to sing. Just then a large cat came by, heard the chirping and clearing away the manure found the little chirping sparrow and ate him.

The moral of the story ...
Everyone who craps on you is not necessarily your enemy. Everyone who gets you out of crap is not necessarily your friend.
And, if you're warm and happy in a pile of crap, you may just want to
keep your mouth shut.

See you on another thread.

Lexi,

So I gather that the Labor government is the pile of crap, and that you are warm and happy in it?

Myself, I am not happy at being crapped on by federal Labor and am perfectly happy to sing out at their incompetence.

Dear Shadow Minister,

As always you're reading it wrong. But I get it. You share the opinion that "We don't need those big government Laborites ruining your life, after all, you're a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like you have." It's a pity - you've got two good feet but you've never learned to walk forward.

Ironic Jpke of the Week !

Julia and Treasurer Swann saying that inefficient and incompetent
state governments should not get as much GST as other states.

Do pots and kettles come to mind ?

Dear Bazz,

No, not pots and kettles - more like brooms and vacuum-cleaners.

Lexi,

I don't believe that everyone can look after themselves as well as I have, and I have no problem with welfare for the disadvantaged.

What I have a problem with is the incompetence of the Labor government, and the 100% record it has in converting good ideas into shocking and wildly overpriced policy.

Dear Shadow Minister,

I've adapted this for you from the web:

"Jack gets up at 6.00am to prepare his morning cuppa. He fill his pot full of good clean drinking water because some Laborite fought for minimum water quality standards.

Jack takes his daily medication with his first swallow . His medications are safe to take because some Laborite fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.

Jack prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Jack's bacon is safe to eat because some Laborite fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

Jack dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree-hugging Laborite fought for "pollution fines," to stop industries from polluting our air.

Jack walks to the railway station for his government subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some Laborite fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Jack begins how work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, supperanuation, paid holidays because some Laborite union members fought and died for these working standards. If Jack is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed because of work injuries, he'll get worker's compensation because some Laborite didn't think he should loose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

Jack visits his father on his way home. He is happy to see his dad who's retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some Laborite made sure he could take care of himself so Jack wouldn't have to.

Jack arrives home and turns on a radio talk show. The host keeps saying that Labor is bad and Liberals are good. He doesn't tell Jack that his beloved Liberals have fought against every protection and benefit Jack enjoys throughout his day. Jack agrees, "We don't need those BIG Government Laborites spending our money and ruining our lives, after all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."

Lexi,

Posting a fantasy pep piece from a labor website does not impress anyone. It is what labor would like to stand for, and is very far from reality.

Long term labor governments typically leave behind huge debt, and unemployment

Dear Shadow Minister,

My previous post was taken from a US Republican website. I merely adapted it. As for that old chestnut of accusing Labor of "spending" and causing unemployment. That's so predictable. As you well know, Labor has to fix the messes that the Liberals leave behind by cutting back on things like infrastructure, roads, health, education and other essential services. Look what they're currently doing in Victoria. It's a disgrace. Major projects - like the huge Cancer facility (that was almost completed) has been stopped
at the Austin Hospital, while the "Grand Prix," looks like going ahead
(which costs millions of tax payers money and runs at a deficit).

It's not a question of "spending" Sir, it's a question of on what?
And saving while letting essential services go down the gurgler - fools only the one-eyed Liberal supporters like yourself.

The sad truth is that condemnation is the only language that you and your party appears to understand.

I watched "Q and A" last night and couldn't help being amused at Julie Bishop's attempts to keep on answering each question put to her as part of the panel with the usual standard Party line of attacking the government. Until even Tony Jones told her that this was a discussion panel and could she please tells us what she thought, and answer the question being asked. Of course she wasn't able to comply.
Like her Leader - condemnation is the only language they understand.

Lexi,

Am I supposed to draw any meaning from your manufactured fluff pieces or fables?

NSW Labor did sweet blow all for infrastructure, and it is now up to the liberals to fix this. Labor's legacy is a bloated bureaucracy and a pile of promised infrastructure that never happened. Part of the reason that Victorian labor got booted out is for the same reason.

Julie Bishop nailed the issue after Rudd's confession. When she asked whether many of the existing cabinet were those who wanted the carbon trading scheme permanently dumped, Rudd by his silence basically admitted it.

Juliar has been caught telling porkies too often for the public to believe her any more, which is probably why Labor's support is falling through the floor, and so is Juliar's personal standing.

Federal Labor is where NSW labor was 2 years ago.

Dear Shadow Minister,

As one voter wrote in to The Age newspaper recently:

"A wealth of negativity: no tax on big miners, no tax on big polluters, now bash the unemployed and disabled. We can see the
real Tony."

And another wrote:

"Er, Tony, noticed yet? Four years of a Labor government: economy excellent: unemployment low: got through the global recession fine, inflation OK. All due to John Howard, I guess."

And another wrote:

"GOD helps those who help themselves - and so does Tony Abbott and Co."

And another wrote:

"TED Baillieu pledging almost $9 million for damage to the Prom, which is very popular with interstate and overseas visitors, pales into insignificance compared with the $50 million-plus for the
GrandPrix, with its phoney attendance and visitor numbers."

What's More...

A cartoon in The Age of a secretary telling Tony Abbott:

"We've got 600 Applicants and only three positions! What does that tell you?"

Tony Abbott replies:

"We have 597 dole bludgers!"

Lexi,

Can't even make up your own comments but are reduced to reporting others?

It must burn you to see your party despised by the majority of Australians.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Nah. You got that wrong as well. I was merely responding to your earlier reference of "fantasy," trying to show you what voters were really feeling.

As for your reference to "my party," and my feeling "burnt?"
Wrong again!

Unlike you - I don't vote for "Parties," but policies that benefit me and my family. And, something like politics doesn't "burn" me as such.
"Disappointing" would be a better word - especially today's political scene where neither party has much to feel smug about.

In one of your previous posts - you made a reference to Federal Labor being where the NSW Labor was two years ago. Well, it's a shame that the Libs of today aren't the Libs of the calibre of people like - Robert Menzies, Malcolm Fraser (or even Malcolm Turnbull - love that man) - people of vision and ideas - who were more concerned about the nation than their own political ambitions. You may call that fantasy - but it sure beats the reality when you watch "Question Time," in Parliament.

Lexi,

You cleave to the every policy that labor puts out, even when you clearly have no in depth understanding of them, yet you would have me believe you are not wedded to labor?

Labor today is in it only for themselves, Juliar's pursuit of the carbon tax, mining tax, has nothing to do with personal or party conviction, rather what the focus groups think the electorate would like.

Would you buy a second hand car from Juliar? not a chance. Vote for Labor again, according to the polls less than 1/3rd would.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You don't seem to understand where I'm coming from at all. I live in Victoria and we experienced first-hand the atrocities committed under the Kennett Government. And we're now beginning to see some of the inept decisions that the current Liberal Government is making. Still it's early days - and fingers-crossed things will improve. Although the current Premier does not have a reputation for being very bright.
Still one can live and hope that the politics of money and power will leave some room for social equity, compassion and the idea of an egalitarian society.

Contrary to your belief - I don't support all of Labor policies. I support what is best for me and my family - which is what I stated earlier. As for yur accusation concerning my depth of understanding on the issues involved - the same could be said about your one-eyed support of the Libs. To each his own. You (the same as I) are merely expressing our opinions.

As for - polls and surveys? Don't be too sure just yet. Polls are not true indicators nor are they that reliable. (As we saw in the last election). At best, they are only relevant at the time and circumstances in which they were taken.
Things change - and what's good today may not be the case tomorrow.
Surveys can also be interpreted in various ways by different people. They depend on the type of questions being asked.

There's still enough time for many things to change - including leaderships of both parties. As I've stated previously - the next election should be an interesting one.

cont'd ...

You asked whether I'd buy a used-car from Julia? (how Nixonish of you and not very original). Well, at least I could afford to do so under her government. Under Tony Abbott - I doubt if I could afford a bicycle.

Lexi,

The "atrocities" (expenditure cuts) by Jeff Kennett were the result of the previous labor government's incompetence in bringing the state to the point of bankruptcy. Which is pretty much the standard modus operandi of the ALP. If the ALP was so wonderful why did they get the boot?

Compared to the complete stuff ups of just about every labor government, I would take Kennett over Brumby any day.

As for the polls, they seemed to be right on the nail for the federal election and both recent state elections.

Considering that Juliar is the one likely to increase the cost of living and send jobs off shore with her taxes, the only reason your standard of living would drop under Abbott would be if you were one of the many public servants benefiting from Labor patronage.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You had to live in Victoria to experience the Kennett years. He almost single-handedly disabled essential services like hospitals, libraries, state rail systems, schools, while at the same time creating extremely) lucrative executive positions (CEO'S)in local and state government services for his friends and colleagues (old boy's
network). The fact that you would "take Kennett" over Brumby any day
does not surprise me at all.

The polls are "on the nail?" Really, let's wait and see on that one.
As far as I'm aware Tony Abbott did not win the last election, despite begging Tony Windsor and the other Independents to make him PM. That should tell you about the calibre of the man.

Myself and my entire family are (and always have been) in private business. Therefore my husband and I feel the differences in policies and their affects between the two political parties when it comes to our standard of living.

You ask me, "if the ALP was so wonderful why did they get the boot?"
There are a variety of reasons for the state losses in NSW and Victoria. One being their longevity in government.

Why did John Howard get the boot not only Federally but in his own Electorate as well?

BTW: A hypothetical. If the Libs win the next election, what are your
aspirations?

I should go away more often.
The thread turned out to be humorous individuals a close follower of Alan is he,
Hansen did not win,told you so unlike SM I put it on the line.
Ten after both Hansen and the one nation mob turned up at the right wing party of rabble rouser's we are told Hansen is not in one nation, bet we all knew that.
Tell you what, in the light of outcomes look again at this thread, if you do not get a kick out of it you should.
oh yes greens, look again mate the foolish NSW mob look bleak a waste in the lower house a single voice and no better in the upper house.
The Balmain toffs put a stop to their voice being heard.

Dear Belly,

Welcome back and I'm glad that you enjoyed this thread. I did as well.
It's been interesting. As I've written in the past - if the world consisted simply of some self evident reality that everyone perceived in exactly the same way, there might be no disagreement among observers. But the truth of the matter is that what we see is shaped by what our past experience has prepared us to see and by what we consciously or unconsciously want to see.

Knoweldge and belief about things (especially politics) does not exist in a vacuum. Each of us is inclined to perceive facts selectively and to interpret them accordingly. The tendency, often unconscious is to interpret facts according to one's own values.

In politics - a change of government does not necessarily mean that things will change. That's an illusion. The problems don't go away, and often the solutions are not that easy to apply either.
The same pressures exist as do the same vested interests with their incentives. Real changes need the right leadership, conviction, and courage - qualities that seem to be sadly lacking in today's political scene.

Lexi,

So the cost cutting exercise was hard on you? You prefer the free spending Labor party, and the short term benefits you get, over the long term financial stability of the liberals?

Belly, don't count your chickens yet, the counting of preferences is not yet complete, and from the last count it looks as though things are as you predicted.

Dear Shadow Minister,

I'm finding it very difficult trying to have a discussion with you.
Difficult because you're not arguing in a logical manner or sound reasoning. You're too dogmatic and you don't listen to the other person's opinion therefore you can be deemed pig-headed and should subsequently be ignored. Even a minor admission will not make you sound weak but rather a little less obstinate.

The Kennett Government's era is well documented in the state of Victoria for its services cut backs - the entire state suffered as a result. It's there on public record and the need for new infrastructure becomes more acute each year.

As an Editorial in The Age, Saturday, April 2, 2011, points out:

"Metropolitan Melbourne has swollen by more that 600,000 people in the past nine years, and if it continues to grow at the present rate it will overtake Sydney within 20 years. And the growth has been heaviest in the outer suburbs, where infrastructure is least developed. Australia's four fastest-growing municipalities in 2009-10 - Wyndham, Melton, Whittlesea and Cardinia - are all on Melbourne's fringe.

The scale of the problem may be daunting, but the Baillieu government does not have the option of ignoring it. It mus resist developers' demands for pushing the urban boundary out even further. It must not shrink from new investment in public transport, such as the regional rail link. This won't be cheap, but the costs, both human and financial incurred to invest would be worse."

Ted Baillieu's pledging to "save" (typical of the Libs) pales into insignificance when he cuts on necessary infrastructure and then spends the $50 million plus for the GrandPrix. Therein lies the problem SM.

cont'd ...

My apologies for the typo. Correction. The quote from The Age in the last sentence was:

"... This won't be cheap. but the costs, both human and financial incurred by refusing to invest would be worse."

Lexi,

To explain simplistically:

The government get tax as an income and spends it on services and infrastructure. The Labor government's expenditure was almost exclusively on services with very little infrastructure, and was spending way more than it was getting in revenue.

Kennett's only option was to strip the fat out of the government service, and so took the axe to large swathes of inefficient departments. There was no way that government services could remain at their previous levels, but the debt was paid back and much needed infrastructure was built.

It may have been painful, but was necessary. Most essential services remained, but the overly costly ones were trimmed or cut.

Not only that, essential services like the Grand Prix were introduced!

And essential services like paying off the "Boy's Club," such as the old BP Building near the Shrine which was coverted to luxury apartments and sold at half-price to the "Boy's Network." Later to be re-sold at more than double the paid price as a financial reward to the participants. (This information was received first hand from people involved). Nice!

Lexi,

Take your anecdotal information to the press or police. Flighting urban myths does not buy your case any credibility.

P.S. the Grand Prix generates huge income for local businesses, and more often than not the taxes on this more than cover the cost to the government.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Unlike like yourself I don't deal with urban myths only facts. As for credibility? This coming from a one-eyed Liberal Party supporter. The Liberal Party, supposedly the bastion of smaller government and less intervention is full of people who are ardently in favour of regulating who we sleep with, who we marry, what we do with our bodies, who can have children and how. Surely you jest?

As for the GrandPrix. Ask the Lord Mayor of Melbourne, former state Liberal leader, Robert Doyle how he and others feel about it! The shrinking grandstands, empty corporate boxes, and exaggerated attendance figures do not generate huge incomes merely deficits in the hundreds of millions. Doyle and even the new Premier now question the huge cost and the annual thrashing of a public park.

SM, don't bother, I though you would have learnt from our last three way. You are communicating with a computer.

dit dit

Lexi,

Coming from a one eyed labor supporter, that is a little rich. If what you say is not an urban myth, feel free to provide corroborating evidence. That you "heard it from someone involved" carries no weight with anyone.

As for the antithesis of anything libertarian, try the NBN for size. The government is going to buy the existing networks and close them. Pass laws to prevent anyone else from building competing networks, and then allow the installers to enter your property without your permission.

Further,the business plan is being kept a secret, the ACCC is prevented from investigating its uncompetitive conduct, and now the total cost to the tax payer is set to hit $60bn.

What a rip off.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You keep on espousing your party-line. Perhaps someone will take you seriously.

Gday Lexi good to be back, sort of, PC is going for yet another problem solving test tomorrow.
Heard a very interesting radio program on radio national today.
About Australian Library's and Librarians, gee you have skills we did not see in my childhood.
HEAR it on ABC web page
It is pointless communicating with Shadow Minister.
The bloke STILL says I am welded on and blind ALP yet he knows how I voted here.
Now SM, calm please, Pauline Hanson did not win that seat, she will not and while she is using our electoral system for its cash rewards never will return to Parliament.
Unless Abbott gives her another run,he has some policy's not unlike hers.

Dear Belly,

So good to have you back! I realize that SM lives in his own little world. But that's OK. They know him there. I'm happy that you enjoyed the program about librarians. The role of the librarian in information provision has evolved from being the custodian of the material held in libraries to that of the active provider of information. The emergence of information consultants and information brokers, in conjunction with online information retrieval services, has challenged the role of the librarian as the provider of information - making the work more rewarding and interesting overall.

Lexi,

I thought so, you cannot back up your urban myth.

Belly, Results tonight:

Labor/CountryLabor 5.2601
The Greens 2.4587
Independents (Pauline Hanson) 0.4804

PH is ahead by a nose.

Is that an just endorsement SM. Or are you Pauline Hanson ?. I'm thinking it's a possibility.

Dear SM,

What urban myth? Do you mean Tony Abbott? Or are you referring to your own political aspirations?

Lexi,

I meant:

"such as the old BP Building near the Shrine which was coverted to luxury apartments and sold at half-price to the "Boy's Network." Later to be re-sold at more than double the paid price as a financial reward to the participants. (This information was received first hand from people involved). "

To which you repeatedly failed to provide any substance.

If you followed my posts, I am an engineer with post grad qualifications and an MBA. I don't belong to any political party, but rather to the "My God, what idiotic thing has labor done now?" club to which apparently the majority of Australians are sympathetic.

P.S. At the last count PH was about 12000 votes ahead of the greens for a senate seat. Belly, considering you put your reputation on the line, I would be worried.

Shadow Minister GOODONYA BLOKE!
Who got it wrong?
She failed.
You however interest me first time you actually put your ego and job description on the line.
So that is why!
First name is not Peter is it?
That ego fits,getting it wrong too.
A fella I know is brilliant at work every one values his advice.
He is not an Engineer, he is the bloke they go to to fix things they got wrong.
A cartoon best describes out door workers views on SOME Engineers, well many, most ah forget it all.
On the wall in construction lunch sheds is a well drawn fella long nose and all that.
He is proudly saying these words, spelling as shown in the cartoon.
A month ago I could not sell injuneer now I are one!
May have been around for along while but my minds eye,knowing its drawer shares my view it was bought about by a bloke called Peter.
PS gloating still you got it wrong, put the boot in early and pie faced your self ROTFL.

Belly,

If you see the title of this thread "Pauline Hanson wins an upper house seat?" Please note the question mark. I at no point claimed that she would win, at best I gave her a 60% chance. Your gloating is because you for once got it right more by luck than judgement, not that I got it wrong.

Need I remind you of your litany of predictions that almost without exception were completely wrong.

The point of this thread was that PH from Queensland got nearly 100 000 votes came within a handful of votes from getting a senate seat. Given that she lost by a tiny fraction of 1% the point of the thread that NSW voters are angry with Labor's stuff up of an immigration policy still stands.

As for my job and experience it is not the first time or even third or fourth time that I have stated what I do, and if the best you can do is rehash a decades old joke poster then you are a very sad old man.

Dear Shadow Minister,

If you're not in politics then why the pseudonym - "Shadow Minister?"
It is most mis-leading (as are the Liberal Party policies).

Thank You for sharing with us your educational qualifications, although I don't quite see the relevance. Except that perhaps you're inferring that you should be able to think logically? Well, in that case you should know that I'm a university graduate and librarian by profession - logic is part and parcel of my training and ethos.

As for my providing you with further "substance?" Why should I provide you with anything at all? That's demeaning. I told you that the information I had was first-hand from people actually involved in the project. You don't believe me - that's your problem. Suffice to say that my husband is an architect - and this information is straight from the horse's mouth. It's not an "urban myth," as you tried to imply.

You say that you belong to the "My God, what idiotic thing has Labor done now?" Club. And that the majority of Australians are sympathetic to you guys? No surprises here. I can understand the sympathy very well. I feel sorry for you and your Club members too!

BTW: If you're a "majority," then why can't you guys elect a Federal
Liberal Government?

Lexi,

I chose the pseudonym "shadow minister" prior to the 2007 elections. As a shadow minister has no real responsibility, but has the function of reviewing the work of the minister, and exposing inefficiency and bad policy.

The reason I shared my qualifications, is to show what I really do, and how not political my job is. I am more in project management presently.

As for your "first hand information" I believe that you believe it, but this "explosive" information about which your contact seems willing to talk to blab about seems to have completely escaped everyone else. I am sorry, but I take it with a pinch of salt.

As far as a majority, have you seen the polls recently? The only reason Juliar survived to cobble together a minority government was because she called an early election. She would not survive today.

IQ is not based on education or snide remarks.
It was you who put your own foot in your mouth in the post above my last one.
Ever ready to taunt you went of early.
And being able to hand it out failed the test of taking it.
You got it wrong.
Said clearly my reputation was on the line.
But mate it is funny gut bustingly, that you respond to being wrong by lashing out again.
Hope you are not a Leighton's project manager, they are not doing all that well.
Bit like living in a ejection seat project managers few see out that job for long.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You have a somewhat different understanding of the role of a Shadow Minister to me. I was under the assumption that a Shadow Minister was the Opposition's spokesperson for a particular portfolio or policy area. That they concentrated on the work of a particular department (such as Defence) and that they also explained to the Parliament what the Opposition would do about specific problems if the Opposition were the Government. And if there was a change in Government that Shadow Ministers would expect to become Ministers. I did not know that their role was to continually make attacks on the Government and constantly condemn everything that the Government did. From memory -
I seem to recall that certain Shadow Ministers even supported the Government's policy on the ETS and many still do.

I'm glad to hear that you're into project managment. In that case you'll understand when I tell you that my earlier information came from a direct source and I don't have to take it "with a pinch of salt " as you suggest. However, that's all par for the course today.

As for the PM not winning an election today. Don't count your chickens before they hatch. I hate to burst your bubble but if the Liberal Party keeps Tony Abbott as their leader in the next election -they've got buckleys chance of winning. And "near enough" is not good enough - as the Party should have learned from the last election.

BTW: Who did win instead of Pauline Hanson. I bet it wasn't the Libs?
Probably the Greens - right? That should tell you something!

Lexi WE both know better I can only speak for myself, but I have left because of this poster.
While I am unsure if another poster is C J Morgan he too in my view was affected by the lack of balance found in this poster.
Both sides of politics are poorly served by such followers.
Our country is too.
I am not fixed in most views,while I live I learn, stole that half a century ago we are unique from that tree.
But this morning opens a wound,a poster once called me and my party pedophiles.
I Complained,a bloke I like, our site owner said he had thought long and hard, given my party's record? then deleted it as it referred to me.
Shadow Minister entrenches in me, We Must be on our guard forever!
Truth our country's best interests carry no weight for some.
An ego out of control is pure danger,each of us has to carry a big bag to put our mistakes in,to admit and know we are not fool proof.
I still chuckle it was not me gloating but SM taunting me above that bought about his total defeat.

Belly,

My goading of you was based on your predilection for stupid predictions based on what you want to happen, not on the data on the ground. I deliberately do not make predictions unless I am reasonably certain.

That PH lost by a handful of votes is more luck than anything and no testament to your deductive abilities. A few previous certain predictions of yours:

1 - Rudd will win the election with an increased majority and be loved.

2- Julia Gillard will win the election with an increase majority and be loved.

How did those work out?

The point of the thread is that the extremist PH who not even a resident of NSW came within a whisker of winning a seat, getting 2% of the vote (which is where the greens were a decade ago).

This was purely a protest vote against the bungling of the immigration policy.

Good to see the election of Jeremy Buckingham to the LC. Jeremy will be a great asset to the NSW Parliament. Nearly as good was the demise of that redneck Pauline Hanson, her 6th defeat in a row, does that not tell her something, maybe she's to thick to get the message.
I suggest Ms Hanson forms herself a political party, not here in Australia, but in the good olde U.S of A, where she can run for the Alabama State Legislature, there might be enough rednecks there to vote her in.
p/s Going to celebratory drinks for The Greens next Tuesday night, despite the conservative landslide we can celebrate with 1 in the LA and and extra 1 in the LC.

Dear Belly,

Thanks for your advice. There's a tendency on many people's parts to think that their way is the right way - and this can get very emotional - especially when dealing with topics like - politics, sport, or religion. I'd personally like to renew dignified and respectful dialogue with SM - but I won't be able to - if he won't even concede some of the good policies that the Government is trying to bring in. Neither side of politics is perfect and surely it wouldn't hurt to admit that on occasion? Anyway, see you on another thread.

Lexi,

Labor had a few good ideas. Such as paid maternity leave, and increasing super slowly to 15%. The first was implemented and as a base did well.

The concept of the pink batts and BER was good, except the implementation was shocking.

I have a couple of things to contribute then will bail out too.
Shadow Minister I have no regard for your opinion on any subject, sorry honesty has far too much value to be put a side.
I based my view not on a lucky guess, not on hope,or dread.
I based it on the view of this country's best advice on politics Antony Greens Blog.
You late in the play said you had 60% surety you got it right.
Even took time out to taunt me.
It shines like a beacon at sea, you lack the ability to except you got it wrong.
A personality fault in my view, we can not grow if we never learn we learn by seeing our wrongs/mistakes.
Last GREENS mate enjoy your night ,but refrain from being too happy.
Your team in NSW are not going to have an impact.
Your new senator in July is today unmasked as a lier as well as a fool.
CONSERVATION desperately needs a hero a place people can be seen to care more for the environment than what Israel is doing.
Greens defame conservation and in my view con most who follow them and would not understand who they vote for.

Belly, I got what wrong?

"Belly, as for that bet, I did say that it was looking like PH would win the seat, but as the preference votes are a wild card, the greens will get Labor preferences, but PH is renowned for picking up preferences. I would say she has about a 60% chance. Good, but not good enough to put my reputation on the line."

Perhaps you could show me where I said she would win. You cannot accept that you were the only one to make a commitment.

Last post in this thread Shadow Minister you have no trouble in putting tickets and descriptions on me.
So may I say it is in my view very far from unlikely I am the first person ever to highlight what seems a personality problem.
Your self opinions are more than unlikely to be shared by many who know you.
regards

I'm sorry about your personality problem. I hope you get better.