SOG....I could not have put it better myself.. (your last post)

I think the true profundity of the 10 commandments is lost on modern "flexi" man.

Perilous... I quite agree about the circular nature of the argument. I'll leave it to the Holy Spirit to speak in that soft quiet voice into your heart about whether it's also the 'right' way.

Which of course is the issue at stake. At that point, faith is needed.

Gen 15:16
"Abraham believed God.. (History) or..if you like "Abraham believed what he believed was God communicating to him"

Then it says "And God credited that to him as righteousness"

Now.. the only person who's word we have for this is presumably Moses,(The author of Genesis) as the comment is like a reflection on a past event.

The entire context of God's interaction with Abram should be carefully studies before simply dismissing this as some kind of strange psychological experience. (beginning from Gen 11:27)

That simple phrase "credited as righteousness" is the foundation of Pauls argument "Justified by faith" and of Luthers enlightenment from the Catholic mental/intellectual/spiritual prison which asserted 'Obedience' to the Church more than faith was the source of salvation. Heck..if Max Weber is to be believed, it is also responsible for the Protestant work ethic, the success of Capitalism and Western prosperity..I'll not go so far as to blame Global Warming in it though :)..though Bob Brown might given his recent outbursts

SOG:

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
William Shakespeare/Hamlet. Act 1. Scene V.

See you on another thread.

Not me, sonofgloin. Wrong target entirely.

>>Pericles discrediting Christianity with an edict written for a society that is so alien to modern Western society is simplistic and obvious. The Torah, the Bible, and the Koran carry a set of words from God that are not open to interpretation, or that were relevant to the times they were written but hopelessly archaic now.<<

That was simply an illustration of the fallacy in Boaz' argument, in which "Canaanites used to feed their children into the fire to satisfy Moloch their god".

As you quite rightly point out, examples relevant only to their time. Tell Boaz that, when you next see him, so that he doesn't make the same mistake again.

On the topic of the ten commandments, though, it is worth pointing out a couple of sticky points - namely, commandments one through four, which have nothing whatsoever to do with ethical principals at all.

In fact, when you think about them in terms of their ethical content, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that they have been the triggers for more inter-faith bloodshed than any other factor.

How did they prevent the centuries of bloodshed in Northern Ireland, for example, where two sets of Christians claimed the right to blow each other to smithereens, in the name of the same God?

Incidentally, how many of them do you keep?

Fair enough, we are all "sinners" after all.

But do you really think that your tally is necessarily any greater than mine?

It would help, if you suggest that we are wildly different in our ethics, to justify that supposition with some evidence. Otherwise, my ethical standards are at least the equal of yours.

And - given you keep one through four, and I don't - far more compassionate.

In A Darwinian Left,[32] Singer outlines a plan for the political left to adapt to the lessons of evolutionary biology. He says that evolutionary psychology suggests that humans naturally tend to be self-interested. He further argues that the evidence that selfish tendencies are natural must not be taken as evidence that selfishness is right. He concludes that game theory (the mathematical study of strategy) and experiments in psychology offer hope that self-interested people will make short-term sacrifices for the good of others, if society provides the right conditions. Essentially Singer claims that although humans possess selfish, competitive tendencies naturally, they have a substantial capacity for cooperation that has also been selected for during human evolution. Singer's writing in Greater Good magazine, published by the Greater Good Science Center of the University of California, Berkeley, includes the interpretation of scientific research into the roots of compassion, altruism, and peaceful human relationships.

Nonetheless, he is not anti-capitalist. In an interview with New Left Project[33] in 2010, he says the following:

Capitalism is very far from a perfect system, but so far we have yet to find anything that clearly does a better job of meeting human needs than a regulated capitalist economy coupled with a welfare and health care system that meets the basic needs of those who do not thrive in the capitalist economy.

He then adds that "If we ever do find a better system, I'll be happy to call myself an anti-capitalist."

Hey Al....this is one of my favourite pieces:) With the bestiality you mentioned, all you were trying to do, was to show that your cult apposes it more than other religions.

BLUE

SoG,

You’re really stretching a long bow there.

<<Since the demise of Christianity in the first world the percentage of citizen in jail has grown remarkably.>>

There are many factors that could contribute to that. We live in much more populated and complex societies than we did decades ago. To be fair, do you have the stats for the last couple of hundred years?

Let’s not forget that statics tend to show that prison populations are overwhelmingly religious. How did the fear of a presumed creator modify their behaviour?

<<Lexi you may not fear a creator and modify your behavior but adherence to a religious teaching and the threat of eternal retribution keeps some in line, so it is a positive to the non believer as well given that society as a whole is safer.>>

Well that depends on how these immoral people - who actually need the threat of eternal damnation just to behave - want to interpret their vague and contradictory holy books. This adherence to religious teachings that you think atheists should view as a positive can well be a negative as well by giving bad people divine reasoning for their evil actions.

Let’s not forget too, how much of an immoral system Christianity is to begin with.

First, it sets up unrealistic, irrational and immoral criteria by which to live, and then it creates a loophole so that you don’t ever have to be responsible for those actions. Christianity is an immoral system because it specifically says that there aren’t necessarily consequences that you’re going to have to pay because of this loophole.

It has nothing to do with how good a person you are, just whether or not you’re willing to be a sycophant to an idea. And if you are, then there is now an exception for which you no longer have to suffer a penalty.

So you don’t get to sit there and imply that atheism is more inclined to make people feel as though they can get off scot-free when that is a TENET of Christianity.

Hi Blue

my 'bestiality' thing was to show how DANGEROUS it is to have people like Singer on our top universities reference committe for applied ethics.

PERICLES.. *dumb look*.. sorry I just don't get what you were trying to argue with your reference to the moloch stuff....care to elaborate a tad ?

The first 4 commandments have everything to do with Ethics... they form the 'relationship' between man and the Creator which gives validity to the next 6. If not for the first 4, the next 6 are just wishful thinking.

Remember.. the Israelites were exiled and punished as a people for straying from those commandments. If you compare the content of the 10 commandments with the message of the prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah and others.. it was just 'come back to your roots' ethically, but those prophets primarily attributed the selfish green and narcissism of the Israelites to their flagrant 'up yours' attitude toward the first 4.

If you compare the condition of surrounding nations.. 'child sacrifice' etc.. to that of the Israelites in obedience.. "ritual sacrifice of animals only" then the importance of the first 4 becomes clearer.