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The Forum > General Discussion > Is This Evolution?

Is This Evolution?

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30 years ago I took a tour of a coal mine,it had closed down abut 20 years before.
In the locker room a great number of boots Left in a heap by the miners lay.
Mostly size 6 few 7 none bigger.
Those miners measured about 4 inches less in hight than todays average .
Is it our food we eat these days, is it environment.
Our girls today, like always mature before boys, but then it was about 16 and in the boys case often later.
Today 12 13?
Others may see more but just in my life time we have changed quite a lot,why.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 15 January 2011 12:55:26 PM
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Is This Evolution?...is that trick question?:) bellies....what ever is going on in your mind:)

BLUE
Posted by Deep-Blue, Saturday, 15 January 2011 11:16:01 PM
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I am aware of that post,if it was worth replying to I would.
In my lifetime, just one human,we have changed, average hight,foot size,maturity [some of us].
Life span, I am interested in opinions ,is it our better food, is it just evolution,is it both?
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 16 January 2011 5:06:43 AM
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I think the changes are bought about by the mongrelization of the population. There wasn't much size in the old cornish miners.
I had a tour through an old jail, and the doorways were narrow and short.
Posted by 579, Sunday, 16 January 2011 10:35:18 AM
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Cornish miners came long before this mine lived and died.
They played no part surely in girls reaching maturity years before they once did.
I dislike the term mongalising.
Distasteful term, my ancestry is England Scotland Irish, and Welsh, that makes me a proud mongrel.
Given the nature of country towns,3 known as Patton Place near me, one defines confusion as fathers day in that fisherman's village, we can never know truly what mix may be in us.
I note the changes in my 65 and a bit life, think we evolve, not getting in to religion, but environment and increased protean in take is changing current generations faster than the norm.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 16 January 2011 11:24:45 AM
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Belly:

I always assumed that body size was largely determined by genes. However, it surely must be significantly influenced by environmental factors such as diet and exercise,as well as - geographic locations, and climatic conditions. Improved nutrition and health overall, must also play a major role - especially in developed areas.
The following website gives a good overview:

http://theevolutionofthehumanbody.blogspot.com/2010/10/height-weight-and-shape-of-human-body.html
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 16 January 2011 12:38:16 PM
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Lexi I will read that soon, it seems clear to me what we eat,where we live and how impacts on it.
I was thinking back to that mine and it bought back the memory's.
That day,standing wondering was it a protest that so many pairs of boots lay on that floor.
I became aware of their sizes, and was reminded my dads feet had been that size, 6 too.
Mine are tens, I am 5 inches taller than him.
For me this is a form of evolution, maybe pure evolution.
In theory we could slow or speed up the process with less or more food and exercise, but others views would be interesting.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 16 January 2011 4:57:20 PM
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Belly:

My dad had smaller feet then me and he was shorter in height. I think I may have inherited my grandfather's genes. He was six feet seven in height, with a size 11 shoe size. Have a read of the website I gave and let me know what you think. I think that the link gives a good
summary of things that could play a role in our shape and height. The miners work could have affected their body development - (stunted their growth so to speak)? It will be interesting to see what other posters think.
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 16 January 2011 6:14:21 PM
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Could it simply be

The boots left behind didn't

Fit anybody?
Posted by Shintaro, Sunday, 16 January 2011 7:21:56 PM
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Yes, many of the averages of localised populations of the human species change over time. The increase in the height of boys and earlier adolescent development of girls is mostly down to better overall nutrition and a reduction in childhood diseases. This is 'epigenetics' and not necessarily directly genetically controlled.

Thus, it may be described as 'evolution' in that it is a change in a population over time, but then also not necessarily directly evoltionary, in therms of genes being selected. It is indirectly evolutionary, in that secondary effects of this increase in size may be either selected for or against, however humans are mostly above this sort of natural selection, unless it directly affects cultural preferences.
Posted by Bugsy, Sunday, 16 January 2011 7:56:13 PM
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Belly,
I know little about genetics, but my belief is that nutrition is the critical factor.

In my nearest town there is a very old brewery which is a tourist venue and the doorways into the accomodation rooms for the former workers are very small. The between decks space in the old sailing ships was also very small.

Since those times our nutrition has improved and we are consuming more protein. I am not surprised that you can notice a difference in our lifetime.

Recently, I read an article which stated that there was a vast difference in height and body dimensions between the North Koreans and the South Koreans, all due to the near stavation of the people in the North.

As a livestock breeder I can say that while an animals genes are important, it is the feeding of the animal that gives the best results. There is also a certain hybred vigor derived from crossbreeding. So I will also accept that children from mixed marriages will be bigger, all other things being equal.

So yes, genes do play a role but the critical factor is in better nutrition of more recent times
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 16 January 2011 9:30:25 PM
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Banjo that post was good I found it spoke for me,every word.
You and I know about hybrid vigor, both having breed cattle.
It indeed is protean in put too.
Now not intending to open wounds, but in breeding humans has been both a factor in ,say our Royal family's case bad genes being passed on.
And in apart of the world know for inter family marriages bigger people.
Long term , food changes more or less may change our genes.
Lexi tell you my thoughts after I mow the lawn.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 17 January 2011 6:23:36 AM
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Banjo stole my thunder. I was going to say that in cattle showing, most of the successful people reckon that what wins the blue ribbon is 30% genetic, & 70% feeding. You can't do it with out genetics, but no amount of genetics can do it, without nutrition.

I don't think it's stopped happening yet either, although we are probably bumping up against our genetic limit, with hybrid vigour supplying some of the last impetus.

My lady gets annoyed when I suggest that the US dominance of track & field athletics, for many years, is due to hybrid vigour. Apparently we can't apply stock breading terminology to humans in her eyes.

However, what else could you call it when you mix most of the genetic material from Africa, & Europe, give it a stir, & let it bread? What ever you call it, it sure worked in improving human physical performance.

So yes Belly, it's partly evolution, but that happened many years ago. The fact that we have now added nutrition has allowed it to be expressed.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 17 January 2011 11:28:23 AM
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Agree hasbeen with every word too.
While it may be not every ones cup of tea if we did mix,remember that song? one big cup mixing us to one? coffee colored people by the score?
We would be, not us but future generations, better for it.
Lack of food, different foods, may have driven evolution a bit faster in the past too.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 17 January 2011 2:06:54 PM
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Belly, nutrition seems to be the major answer.
I saw a report a while back that the Chinese are getting significantly
bigger due to improved diet.

Also, I am taller than my father and my three sons are taller than me.
However my grandfather was taller than my father, so not sure what that
means.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 17 January 2011 2:38:36 PM
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I thought the Americans being rather good at sport had a lot to do with their more sophisticated strains of steroids.

Girls used to begin menstruating around age 13 and now around 10 is quite common. Hormones in our food I reckon. Friend told me how some chicken farmer gave him some pellets for his chooks and they ended up not being able to walk they were so huge compared to the chooks he had kept for eggs that he didn't feed the pellets to.

Note to Anti: Young girls don’t get PMS, wonder why only older females develop it.

OLO has a spell checker??
Posted by Jewely, Monday, 17 January 2011 5:32:09 PM
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i will restrict my comments to your first post

do miners usually take off their boots before walking home?
maybe those left over boots served no ones purpose
[ie the 'usable' sizes were taken home with them]

there is a thing called hybred vigure
where outcrossing say a welsh miner or short stature..with say a mongolian with short stature...can produce a hybred...that is taller than both

add in the facts of nutrition
runts are runts because they were the last to get a feed

evoplution generally works..[is said to work]..over longer periods of time..but of course they are talking about macro evolution..as im apes lol becoming..evolving into man...[but largly macro evolution is the scam]

micro evolution..is the more true form of evolution
but is affected by things like hybred vigour
and resessives traits appearing within limited breeding populations

these ressesive traits often disappear when cross bred back to a wild type that reflectes the genomic mean..this can also appear in conjunction with hybred vigure..

there is also the other issue about size mattering
tall people dont generally make good miners
short people are favoured...usually..the mines are very low...[it costs money to mine out non ore..so most mines were only as high as the ore body that was being mined

meaning kids were prefered..[and worked cheap]
and did as they were told

in short the question..reminds me of a school
see how all the shoes ion front of the 3 rd grade are small
is this evolultion?

no thats just the way it was
thats the average[mean] size of its workers
Posted by one under god, Monday, 7 February 2011 8:52:59 AM
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