When the actual flooding stops I would like to see a Qld & Federal Government initiative to get off on the right foot.
How about engaging many of the young unemployed as part of a trial national service under the supervision of qualified & competent people not some academic high achiever idealists.
I truly believe that Australia couldn't receive a louder & clearer message for implementing a national service.
Let's engage the resource sitting out there looking for something to do. The chance is here now. Engaging the unemployed under the same pay conditions as used to be the military service would save great cost & provide a magnificent stepping stone for nation building. It would also negate more stimulus packages which only benefit the consultants who already have enough. Give my tax dollar to those who need & not to those who want more.

Nice idea Indy

But we've seen what happens

With such knee-jerk schemes

(Shouldn't that be "we have", not "we've", Shintaro?)

I am sure that there will be a long and fascinating laundry-list of recommendations forthcoming on the topic "how to rebuild Queensland".

I hope, though, that not too many will be such shameless peddling of a hobby-horse as this one, under the guise of "only trying to help".

>>I truly believe that Australia couldn't receive a louder & clearer message for implementing a national service<<

The linkage between our national response to a natural disaster, and the dragooning of our youth into State servitude is... what, exactly?

And which calculator did you use for this speculation?

>>Engaging the unemployed under the same pay conditions as used to be the military service would save great cost<<

Is that "all" the unemployed? For how long do you anticipate supporting their pay and conditions - housing, welfare etc.? Is this just a Queensland "solution", or do you see it as being national. 'Cos if it is only QLD, would you consider penalties for those who decide to emigrate to Tweed Heads?

Oh, and while we're checking your sums (you still have the beer mat, I presume?), how exactly does this work?

>>It would also negate more stimulus packages which only benefit the consultants who already have enough<<

Be honest, individual. You didn't actually think it through, did you. You just decided "let me take advantage of the misery presently being visited upon tens of thousands of people, as an excuse to once more harrumph about the yoof of today."

Don't worry, though. You're not the first, and you won't be the last to take advantage of the plight of these hapless folk.

Au is near full employment, i don't know where you are going to find these unemployed as suggested by indy; Besides that there is a health and safety issue there or are you suggesting we by pass that

Quite so, Pericles

I lost a syllable in

The flood, it appears!

(Also agreed on your substantive point)

May sound silly but from where are we going to find these mass unemployed youths.
We are closer to full employment than we have been for a while, see todays figures.
It is a fact some are, like it or not work shy, and we are going to see, as mines reopen and rebuilding starts very big shortages of workers.
More 457 visas? likely but lets rebuild before we take on new projects.

Near full employment ? Are you people serious ? Ah, I see, you count those working for the dole as fully employed. Very nice indeed. So much concern for others. It's really heart warming. Get real. I work with people who are fully employed under CDEP or CA as it is known now. That's one of the more disgusting ways of treating the victims of economic mismanagement. Also, why so much opposition to national service ? I thought you were all such proud Australians who hold mateship so high, well at least when it comes to blowing your own trumpet.
Get those who don't have a job now & give them the start that's been denied to so many in past years. national service will do that. Get rid of working for the dole and give young people who want to do more than just become mindless consumers a go. Now is the chance.

Individual:

I think that Queensland needs trained, qualified people with experience in emergency services, untrained youths would be a hazard and a hinderance for those experienced, and doing the work. It's in the nation's interest to also work out a program suitable for all flood-prone areas to control and deflect any future floods by by-passing towns and agricultural areas with engineered canals and designing giant flood-control basins clear of all critical areas. In the US the cities of Los Angeles, Las Vegas, and despite its recent tragedy, New Orleans, all have engineered precautions to cope with
flooding. Note, that the New Orleans tragedy came from a cyclone arriving from the sea and not flood waters from the river.

I observed from the TV footage that quite a few of the homes that were flooded appear to be recently built and I ask 'How Come'?

What authorities allowed the development and the building of homes in flood areas?

I know that, here in NSW, Local councils have had authority for many years to prevent urban developement and home construction in known flood areas. In fact my local council has produced maps showing the areas prohibited for home construction, because of flooding.

If the last major floods were in 1974, surely something has gone very wrong if homes have been constructed in the flood areas since then.

Some questions need to be asked related to when homes were built and if they were approved after 1974. Town Planners and Engineers may have some explaining to do.

Lexi,
Of course untrained people are more of a hindrance than a help. That's the main reason/point of my argument for national service. National service is more likely than not our only chance as a functioning society to train young people. No one, not even me, is expecting to throw young people into the deep end of emergency service work. Like any apprentice they can start in loading trucks etc etc & before long they'll be capable & contributing members of our society. The reason why we so many literally useless people is because they're all rather educated but have had zilch exposure to practical work & consideration kind of thinking. National Service provides the stepping stone for young people to acquire these vital qualities. Just look at how many people have emerged from the armed forces as competent technicians & trade & other professions. CDEP or the Dole don't have that track record. I don't for one minute believe that it is asking too much for a young person to spend one year of their live with the prospect of having better prospects in later life. A situation such as the floods invokes compassion among people so, let's not a handful of idealists who only believe in accepting benefits but not responsibility, try & counter the need for a national service.

I am sorry about this individual, please stop referring to me in the third person.
In return I under take to lower my expectations from you.
We have unemployment but not the skills needed, by the end of reconstruction you will see a shortage of workers.
Now this morning every morning, I have read three newspapers online.
One of our very biggest has let it be known they intend to poach west Australian fly in fly out workers.
To work here.
You saw Lexis post,surely you know chippys and plumbers tilers and leckys can not be found in those ranks.
Look in goggle at the history of Darwin rebuilding, it drained workers from around this country.
Take a breath, think about your posting habits,and under stand not every one who disagrees with you is wrong.

chippys and plumbers tilers and leckys can not be found in those ranks.
Belly,
I don't get it re referring to you in the third person. I don't mean to degrade anyone via that avenue.
The whole idea of making young people to do national service is to counter the down slide of competence in trade in society such as we're seeing now or am I just imagining that down slide. As any union delegate will point out to you many happily accept the benefits of an agreement but no-one wants to pay the fees. Well, I look at national service with that very view. Everyone will accept the benefit of a more functioning society but many don't want to give even a measly 12 months for everyone's benefit. There's not a single person out there who can convince me that such a service would not be beneficial. We hear so much about young people being unhappy or have no direction or find life meaningless. I believe it is up to us to instigate counter action & national service is one highly effective tool to start with. National service involves people involving people & that is the core of society strengthening. The age-old adage of you have to be cruel to be kind rings just so true. So to get young people to understand how to care they first have to be exposed to discipline in order to appreciate it.. National service is that tool. Just imagine how many full-time positions could be created by a national service. I'm talking about full-time showing young people the way to become a valuable link in a great society. It really should be a no-brainer to anyone to visualise the positive snow-balling effect of such a scheme in all aspects of society. Over and out.

Is this the reason why so many homes were flooded in Brisbane, and what about other areas.

Will governments cover this up. I feel very sorry for those people affected by the floods and it seems some authorities have much to answer for.

Graft and corruption may also be involved.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/breaking-news/alarming-report-on-brisbane-river-risks-covered-up/story-fn7ik8u2-1225987231243

To the majority of people, individual, National Service means "joining the Army".

You seem to think its primary function is community service.

"Bring back National Service" has forever been the catchcry of old farts who disapprove of yoof in general, their manners in particular, and their music... you call that noise, music?

Never, ever, is it accompanied by any rational thought as to how much it will cost, financially and socially, or to who qualifies and who does not qualify, among many other simple questions.

You have simply conformed - quite beautifully, it has to be said - to the stereotype.

Is it just unemployed youth that you wish to dragoon? Or everyone, as they do in Israel? Will it be State-by-State, or a Commonwealth initiative? Would - should? - the same effect be achieved by a commitment by Local Councils to a structured form of community service?

Because sentencing kids to the same indignities that the Nashos of the fifties and sixties experienced, simply to satisfy your own ideas of "discipline for young people", is pretty lame.

I don't believe for one moment that you have an any way considered the organization required to build such a feature into Australian life. Would you expect these people to go to Afghanistan, the way we sent Nashos to Vietnam, or just clear up the rubbish after a storm?

Sorry, individual, but opening your window and shouting slogans that make you feel better may be comforting to you. But at least make some attempt to understand exactly what you are proposing.

Pericles,
I'm sorry to have to say this but your reply is typical of those who resent to have to contribute to their own life rather than have the Government mollycoddle them from cradle to grave. Your argument re cost is a ridiculous one. Cost is cost, no matter if you spend money on people doing nothing or giving people something to do.
I did specifically say national service not military. People against national service conveniently & deliberately choose to interprete it as military.
the only stereotypes in this debate are those trying to evade responsibility. It is not a matter of old farts raving on about the youth of today. It's about the adults of tomorrow. It is the responsibility of the decision makers of today to ensure tomorrow's adults are capable of being part of society. If you're not concerned about your old age then by all means be my guest but I for one do not wish to have my super fund eroded by having to pay more for insurance & cover up mindless development approvals in flood prone area as we'll see happening within weeks.

Please don't think you have to apologize for your views, individual, however mistaken they may be.

>>Pericles, I'm sorry to have to say this but your reply is typical of those who resent to have to contribute to their own life rather than have the Government mollycoddle them from cradle to grave<<

The assumption you make is that there are only two positions in a discussion. Here, it is either a disinclination to "give ones own life" (whatever that may mean), or being mollycoddled by the government.

This is a trick you pull quite often, I have noticed.

It is also, of course, quite illogical, and entirely a non sequitur.

Our armed forces place themselves in danger, simply by volunteering, and have everybody's gratitude and admiration, exactly for that reason.

Your suggestion is that if you choose not to volunteer, you are simply a passenger, "mollycoddled by the government".

This is, as I said, totally illogical, and has nothing to do with the introduction of National Service.

>>I did specifically say national service not military. People against national service conveniently & deliberately choose to interprete it as military.<<

Just as conveniently as you ignored the fact that in Australia, the term "National Service" has never been used in any context other than military.

Unlike, interestingly, in Israel, where they use the term to distinguish it from their almost-compulsory Military Service.

Now you have cleared up that misconception, though, you might take a few moments to explain exactly what you do mean.

>> It is the responsibility of the decision makers of today to ensure tomorrow's adults are capable of being part of society.<<

Is that so?

What then, in your view, is the role of parents, compared to the role of government? Where do the responsibilities meet. Do they in fact overlap?

I still believe that you are using it as shorthand for "I wish these young layabouts would get up off their backsides and do something useful for a change".

But I'm willing to learn.

Individual I have no intentions to hurt you.
But your in put to this your thread looks like mashed potatoes and pumpkin, after some one has tried to separate it.
National service has ALWAYS been military.
We have work for the dole and such, it fails almost every time.
I still have an interest in getting young workers a job, always will.
I want what you want, a job not the dole, training not a life of laboring, for the shrinking numbers of unemployed youth.
But it requires a form of socialism to put it in place.
Once governments trained and employed them, RTA/DMR railways water boards sewage it is a good idea but quite separate from this tragic disaster.
We are not flooded with unemployed, dole bludgers or not, we do have some.
Soon we will have even less we are near what is considered full employment.
I hope my side of politics has the guts to review welfare, to put a job of worth to both the community and the person before social security.
Mate your reply to pelican is off, it says more about you than any one re read it then pelicans posts.

Pericles,
I did not think it possible for someone to get things as wrong as you do here. Please only reply when you have something positive & constructive to contribute.
Belly,
ALWAYS ? as in 40 years ago ?
we are not flooded with dole bludgers ? I give you the benefit of doubt but can you deny that we're flooded with incompetent & impractical people who are kept at great cost to taxpayers & at the expense of more deserving working people.
Remember Queensland needs rebuilding & I'm afraid workers will need to be imported because our human resource is just not made for dirty work. A national service would not discriminate against anyone by not putting people to work.

That is simply hilarious, individual.

>>Pericles, I did not think it possible for someone to get things as wrong as you do here. Please only reply when you have something positive & constructive to contribute.<<

Since your very first post - on a thread about rebuilding Queensland, by the way - you have been wittering on about how great it would be for the youth of this country to undergo National Service - sorry, national service.

And suddenly, it is me who is "getting things wrong".

>>...the only stereotypes in this debate are those trying to evade responsibility<<

Classic.

Pericles sorry I got your name wrong.
Now for individual.
This thread highlights to me why we clash, it is true I have been putting my expectations to high.
You almost shout at me in this thread, you do not truly understand.
The subject.
The facts surrounding unemployment, training, past evidence clearly politics.
It would be easy to glance at your post and fly past without reading, others are treated that way.
But you have the air of self assurance that imposes your views as law, insulting those you fail to agree with.
You are entitled to your views,of me and Pericles but know it is you words that give evidence you are not here to debate,question,explore, but to inform.
My expectations from you are now not much at all.
However a look early mornings at press storys may be of help, this weeks release of unemployment numbers and trends would unlock that closed door you call a mind.

Pericles,
yoy're just arguing for the sake of it. You obviously have no compassion nor the mentality, nor interest in this country to rebuild. What a waste.
Belly,
As for your indignation I can only say if you can dish it out you should be able to handle it. So, I'm insulting those who don't agree with me ? Well if that's the only way you can look at things then there's nothing I can do. You think it insulting to point out unpleasant facts but you apparently don't find it insulting when members in our society cop misery & discrimination & get ripped off because people like you & Pericles can not get themselves to admit that the mismanegment of the mob you support causes so much of this misery. How about looking at the situation & doing something for others without getting membership payment first. You are a union man so you should be able to explain why someone who needs help can only get it by giving money to the ALP. After all, quite a lot of this help is needed due to the incompetence of those who take money under the pretence of helping in return. let the floods be an eye opener for you. People helping other people for nothing. Now that's compassion. Unlike the compassion shown to me by union thugs when I was so broke because of the Whitlam fiasco that I couldn't afford the union fee. If you don't pay you won't be working here much longer was the thugs' compassionate reply. Mates of yours Belly ?

"National Service"

Will never get up, if you

Just abuse critics

Individual it is quite impossible to hold a discussion with you.
You have closed your mind.
And in doing so self improvement and understanding dies.
Once that takes place old age[ at any age] takes over.
I can debate many conservatives, even learn from them.
You do you know, believe me,have far too much self confidence in your own opinions.
That self confidence is miss placed.
You rave on about under privileged and try feebly to target me as not caring.
Know this, my recent retirement gained me 5 to 7 extra hours a day,I worked that extra out of hours unpaid.
I gave big time in cash to needy I came in contact with too.
I would go hungry to give to you if you needed it, giving is good for us, it makes us worthy.
It is time , for the sake of OLO , to again re make my promise avoid you, no progress can be made in talking to you.
It is my fault, I knew that long ago but kept hoping you could see views other than your own.
Fight that grumpy fixed old man inside you mate, fight hard, life can be great at any age, I fully intend to take my brain to my grave in good nick.

Will never get up, if you
Just abuse critics.
Shintaro,
Iim not abusing critics, I'm merely pointing at facts.

I would go hungry to give to you if you needed it, giving is good for us, it makes us worthy.
Belly,
Then why do you so vehemently support the ALP ?
Sounds like you're the one with a closed mind so as not to have accept what that lot is doing to us. You intend to take your mind to your grave in good nick. Well, I intend to go to my grave with a reasonably intact integrity.
Anyhow this thread is about rebuilding Queensland & not defending the ALP.
Are both Fed & state governments implementing reform re real estate barons selling more residential land in flood prone area & for insurance companies to pay out before declaring themselves bankrupt ? They're already talking about rebuilding. Rebuilding on the same spot to get flooded again next time ? They need to help people to build their houses at least one storey higher & that will make an enormous difference in future. The Government & Councils should in all fairness at least half the property taxes for these areas & the raising of houses would create massive employment. Insurance companies should have to contribute to the cost of raising houses if their present policies excuse them from paying out to people who paid for insurance. They should not be able to worm their way out again. They knew the area was flood prone & they still accepted the money. I'm saying put a lot of that money to prevention rather than cure. Building regulation need to be revised now. No building living floor lower than the '74 flood level. Sounds simplistic ? Yeah ? Pretty simple solution I'd say.

individual wrote 12 January 2011 10:00:05 AM:

>... Engaging the unemployed under the same pay conditions as used to be the military service ...

The Austrlaian Government already has a scheme to engage unemplpyed people under the same pay conditions as the military: <http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/>. ;-)

More seriously there is an outline of "Mutual Obligation/Work for the Dole" schemes from the Parliamentary Library at: <http://www.aph.gov.au/library/intguide/sp/dole.htm>.

Not at all, individual.

>>Pericles, yoy're just arguing for the sake of it. You obviously have no compassion nor the mentality, nor interest in this country to rebuild. What a waste.<<

I am arguing for the application of some practical commonsense to your suggestion that this country should enlist "many of the young unemployed as part of a trial national service".

My position is not frivolous, as you suggest. It is offered in the context of assessing the need from both a national perspective, as in "what problem would compulsory national service address", and from an ideological one, which asks "is national service the most appropriate response to unemployment".

Admittedly, I had assumed you actually meant National Service, which, given all the references to discipline and dole-bludgers, was not too much of a stretch.

But given this was not your intention, I ask again - what form do you see it taking? Simply slagging me off - "no compassion nor the mentality, nor interest in this country to rebuild" - for not sharing your views is pretty cheap, given that you haven't even expressed them clearly.

Pericles,
I have no problem with your last post. My question is how soon are we going to implement a service to the nation by every young 18-19 or 19-20. We desperately need some form of service through which or in which many young people can learn & even appreciate responsibility in return for a bloody good life in this country. This country needs help now to remain good. We need to engage people now. We need a service now. It's irrelevant what it's called. Called responsibility service for calling it something's sake. Words like compulsory & ideological aren't in the equation.
You must acknowledge no matter how unpleasant a fact this is but there are way too many unemployable in our society simply because they either don't get direction or it is even offered to them. Not everyone needs or indeed desires academic achievement, more people just want reasonably rewarding employment. A service to the Nation at a young age will give direction & make people see purpose in things they don't normally hear about. A service to the Nation is the best nation builder available to us. let's not squander the chance again like the Whitlam Government did. Just imagine where Australia could be now if it weren't for that outfit. The rebuilding of the flood/fire affected parts of Australia is an ideal stepping stone for getting this Nation back on track.

No we don't, individual.

>>We desperately need some form of service through which or in which many young people can learn & even appreciate responsibility in return for a bloody good life in this country<<

That's a myth.

Like your proposition that:

>>the reason why we so many literally useless people is because they're all rather educated but have had zilch exposure to practical work<<

There is so much wrong with that statement it is difficult to know where to start. But at least we now know who is to blame, in your view:

>>...let's not squander the chance again like the Whitlam Government did. Just imagine where Australia could be now if it weren't for that outfit<<

Whitlam's government was thrirtyfive years ago.

We have elected fourteen governments since then, seven Labour, seven Liberal.

Check your calendar, individual. We are already eleven years into the twentyfirst century.

Pericles,
what is the myth part, tell us some of the wrongs of the statement. Btw. the Whitlam bandwagon started rolling before he became PM. So pretty close to 40 years. Also, I notice you didn't actually refute the squandering part. Good to see you have some grasp of reality. I know we're in the 21st century that's why I know it's high time to act. You're still raving on about sitting back & waiting for more ideological academics to make profound but practically useless statements. Action does something for flood & fire victims, statements don't. Just in case it hasn't sunk in yet this is about rebuilding not defending incompetence. I suppose you don't quite get the difference do you. never mind, one day hopefully you will.

Boot camps for young 'uns

Is what this country requires

To forget Whitlam

Pericles I am unsure is that praise?
Your opponent says you have at least a grasp on reality.
If I was part of this debate I would ask where can we find these mass useless youths, the ones who desperately need to be flogged into line and fixed.
Get the beggars out of uni drag them from the work benches or schools.
By the age of 18 they must serve us, stop being educated earning a living its compulsory, serve us.
Not sure what that means but it has to be better than letting the young pick their own path in life.
Now maybe it is praise, if just one finger nail of your opponent had contact with reality, even for a Milli second, well asking too much.

Shintaro displays

A wicked sense of humour

That was a classic!

If I was part of this debate I would ask where can we find these mass useless youths, the ones who desperately need to be flogged into line and fixed.
Belly,
you are part of this debate like it or not. As a unionist you'd have had a finger in the pie over the years. Unions helped propagate the incompetence that surrounds us now. unions claimed to protect workers & their jobs. Well, where are these workers & their jobs now ? You want to know where the useless masses are ? We have a shortage of trades people or am I imagining that ? No ! Union demands for ever increasing pay made training an apprentice unviable for employers. That's why we now have to import capable workers from overseas.
As for Pericles,
You know I can't state at this stage what you request because of the same lack of integrity you share with those you defend. The authorities don't have sufficient integrity not to victimise people who speak up. Remember that poor nurse at Bundaberg Hospital ? Remember the many whistleblowers ? You're full of silly challenges but you rather short of sensible answers. You don't even care that this thread is about rebuilding the flood/fire affected. Instead you're hijacking the debate to defend your incompetent mates. There are people who need help. Help that depends on more than the
helping hands. I salute them. We need competent authorities for the broader picture. The young have to physically be part of this rebuild. Increased charges & taxes won't cut it. Competent management will.
As for flogging, well, that;s your silly recommendation, not mine.