Lexi, indeed, I certainly understand what you say Collins says about having the church adapt and change according to the secular world's world view.

In fact, that is the only way to keep a fairy tale going, is it not?

But, I think Squeers, like me, can see that the Pell-Jensen-Houston-Pope-Blair-Rudd-Abbott-Bush-Taliban-Saudi world view of absolute rights and wrongs (always the other people's fault of course-or Satan's) is the true face of organised religion.

It is the rigidity of this Mumbo that gives people the certainty they crave, particularly when they believe the Howards' of the world who say we are all going to be over run by Johnny Turk and his crescent moon.

Either the Bible IS the word of God, or it ain't.

There is no 'partial pregnancy' involved here, is there?

It cannot be infallible yesterday, but altered to suit consumer moods today, and change again next week, can it?

That would make it a man made fable, and nothing more.

Which is fine by me.

Let's reinterpret this collection of handed down stories according to the times now, to see if there are gains to be made, or new stories to add even, but let us then ditch all the smoking handbags, magic water, cloaks, and everything else designed to create 'shock and awe', and get down to 'living together'.

The Collins 'Mick' sounds like a reasonable person to me, one that makes their own mind up, and knows 'right' from 'wrong' without viewing the world through a pair of Guy Athol Shadow's specs.

So, when do these Secular Catholics make the next logical move, out of an angst ridden Mumbo Juju Magic framework and into the actual, real, only, world?

Squeers and TBC:

I thought this thread was about Cardinal Pell. To me Cardinal Pell's actions are the antithesis of Christ and his teachings. As I see it Pell is acting at the behest of the Vatican and is not supported by the vast majority of Australian Catholics.

cont'd...

Emile Durkheim was one of the earliest sociologists who believed that the origins of religion were social, not supernatural. He pointed out that, whatever their source, the rituals enacted in any religion enhance the solidarity of the community as well as its faith. Religious rituals such as Baptism, Bar Mitzvah, Weddings, Sabbath Services, Christmas Mass, funerals, et cetera, et cetera... These rituals serve to bring people together; to remind them of their common group membership; to reaffirm their traditional values; to offer comfort in times of crisis; and in general, to help transmit the cultural heritage from one generation to the next. In fact, Durkheim argued, shared religious beliefs and the rituals that go with them are so important that every society needs a religion, or at least some belief system that serves the same functions. Of course although religion is a universal social institution, it takes a multitude of forms. Believers may worship gods, ancestors, or totems; they may practice solitary meditation, frenzied rituals, or solemn prayer. As far as I'm concerned - I have my own beliefs, however I don't have a "missionary complex" and have no intention of imposing those beliefs on anybody else. Live and let live is my ethos.

Lexi, I don't doubt Durkheim's thoughts at all.

But that just shows how totally irrelevant the power structure of the Vatican, and Canterbury for that matter, to say nothing of all the other centres of Mumbo, really are.

Are we really so simple that we have to huddle together pretending to believe in something that isn't there, in order to pretend to live in harmony with each other?

And yes, it is about Pell, and how irrelevant he is.

Between Durkheim and Collins you seem to have exposed the BIG man in the sky type of religion for what it really is, tawdry tinsel for twits.

Pell is out of touch, but he'd do well in Africa at the moment, with their witch burnings and Scripture Union evangelism, and all the rot that goes with that behaviour.

Which leads me back to what Pell was saying, if you don't follow the rules, clear off.

Why don't the decent people who oppose the group-thought of the Pell-Vatican variety not just abandon ship and grow up a little more than they obviously have already?

A real 'life's a mystery' question... or as they say oop norf, 'There's nowt as queer as folk'.

<As far as I'm concerned - I have my own beliefs, however I don't have a "missionary complex" and have no intention of imposing those beliefs on anybody else. Live and let live is my ethos>

Well no one could argue with that, Lexi.

I'd counter apropos the other stuff that to begin with, just because Durkheim said so don't make it so. We can all quote authorities to bolster our prejudices. Marx was arguably a founder of sociology and he was a (quasi)materialist.
I of course think Pel is a pill, though if he upholds the tenets of the faith I'd have thunk he was all to the good.
I see no earthly reason why we can't have moral and meaningful lives and rituals without the shtick, and can only surmise it's the extraterrestrial element that attracts people. Which makes me ask, what's wrong with this world? And whatever it is let's fix it rather than fixate on fictions.
Every society does not need a religion, but it does or should need a purpose and a credo, which is precisely what we lack.

But TBC is in much better form than I.

TBC:

I can't speak for other people only for myself. As I've written in the past, I used to think that I wasn't religious, and perhaps I wasn't. I didn't like what organized religion had done to the world. I still don't. I have come to see however, that true religion is internal, not external. What some have done in the name of religion does not make religion as a mystical phenomenon invalid. Organized religions have become, in many cases, as calcified as other institutions that form the structure of our modern world. Our religious institutions have far too often become handmaidens of the status quo, while the genuine religious experience is anything but that. Spirituality is an inner fire,a mystical sustenance that feeds our souls. Organised religious institutions will have to step up to bat, religiously, or they will wither away. They have to transform for the simple reason that people have become genuinely religious in spite of them.