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The Forum > General Discussion > Government ruins Xmas for Australia

Government ruins Xmas for Australia

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"The government ruined Xmas for Australia", should be the banner headline on every tabloid around the country.

According to the retail traders association this Xmas is definitely the worse for retail sales for twenty years, because twenty years ago interest rates went from 9% to 18% in months.

As Xmas looms and I drive down streets of darkened houses devoid of those joyous displays of Xmas lights I thought of better times where even if you lived week to week you could bung on some lights at Xmas.

I listened to the Petrol Commissioner JUSTIFYING how this and that meant fuel legitimately went up 20 cents a liter a couple of days before Xmas, and at the end of the same news report they tell me the Aussie buck is just a smidge over the US buck. Bloody amazing we Aussies never ever win.

I look back on a couple of Xmas's ago and miss the things that I never had then, but I have now, such as:

6 young Aussies dead because of the wasteful Batts rort, and lack of management and diligence.
150 house fires so far directly attributable to the lack of basic management talent in the cabinet.
Massive rorts in the BER scheme where the big end of town and the State Governments took a third of 16 billion for doing nothing.
No boarder protection boarder policy to speak of at present.
Our soldiers are not being paid because the bureaucrats are imbeciles and the government clueless.
Our soldiers being charged with murder in a free fire situation in a war zone.
Opening up of agricultural imports and foreign agri diseases.
The selling off of our water to foreign companies.
The selling off of our farm land to foreign nations and investors.
The traitorous legislations that hinder our farmers growing food.
An imminent Carbon tax where we get shafted directly and big biz gets compted.
My country moved from a 20 billion surplus to a 100 billion debt in a couple of years.

Merry Xmas and good luck Australia, we are going to need it.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 24 December 2010 9:52:57 PM
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My country moved from a 20 billion surplus to a 100 billion debt in a couple of years.

sonofgloin,
50% of the population could see that at the last federal election. 50% and two independents couldn't.
Posted by individual, Monday, 27 December 2010 2:13:13 PM
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*According to the retail traders association this Xmas is definitely the worse for retail sales for twenty years*

Ah sonofgloin, your glass remains nearly empty, whilst mine remains
two thirds full!

I thought the above would finally be great news! Consumers finally
becoming sensible, no more overloading their credit cards with
overpriced pre Christmas goods, half of which are unwanted anyhow.

A bit more saving and a bit less wasting money, is not a bad thing.
The best way to deal with banks of course, is to buy some of their
shares, not max out on their credit cards.

For consumers of course, there is great news around. Online
marketing is booming. No need for consumers to pay pesky gatekeepers
like Westfield, a big fee to buy goods there. Retailers are being
forced into more honesty. If their overheads are overblown, consumers won't just have to wear it, as they used to. They now have
choice.

The AFR on December 23rd, published an interesting couple of pages,
comparing Australia in the late 90s-2000 to now.

In that time, GDP per person has doubled.
Average home size has increased by 25% or so.
The price of the average engagement ring has doubled.
Philanthropy has tripled to 2.35 billion $
Champagne consumption has doubled.
Luxury car sales are up 40%
High net worth individuals has increased from 74'000 to 174'000

Cocaine sales in Sydney are booming, like never before.

The country is hardly doing it tough.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 27 December 2010 2:23:27 PM
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Was it Hanrahan who said we will all be ruined?
I rather like the Henny Penny type myself.
As debates rage about increased interest rates mining tax's and heaps of evidence we are far out in front of most of the world b the thread amuses me.
More afraid however of real things that myopia driven politics.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 27 December 2010 3:54:20 PM
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SOG:

Don't you believe it. The sky isn't falling, at least not yet. And you'd certainly know it if you were anywhere near a shopping mall on Boxing Day. Finding a parking space was near to impossible, with some folks having slept there over night so that they'd be able to get in as soon as the doors opened. Sales, Sales, and more Sales, with shop owners rubbing their hands in glee. Doom sayers will continue to predict the worst but all we need to do is watch the news on a regular basis and check out how the rest of the world is doing then realise just how lucky we really are, with actually very little to complain about. (Especially me...I've just spent the money I got for
Christmas and picked up heaps of bargains at a fraction of the cost...) Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells, Jingle All The Way, Oh What Fun it is To Be In Myers Boxing Day - Yay!
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 27 December 2010 4:19:12 PM
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SOG:

cont'd...

I forgot to add - if it's really as bad as you claim in this country
under the current government maybe you should consider migrating to
Canada and let an unfortunate Canadian take your place here in Australia or maybe you'd prefer to swap places with a dozen or so -
boat people? I'm sure they'd appreciate your Christmas in Oz.
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 27 December 2010 4:26:44 PM
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let an unfortunate Canadian take your place here in Australia
Lexi,
May I suggest you swap places with some of your fellow australians from the basic wage society. Those who pay tax so people like you can afford so much compassion as to invite low income Canadians & boat people to Australia.
Yes, things are quite rosy for many Australians but there are many Australian who can't afford anything. Breadline Pensioners come to mind there. Do you think about them when you collect your obviously generous pay ?
I don't mean to be sarcastic. I simply want to say that SoG puts forward a valid argument.
Posted by individual, Monday, 27 December 2010 6:22:44 PM
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SOG I agree with the concerns in your list for the most part, however I believe people are just becoming less consumerist and like Yabby wrote are more wary of the debt trap.

The GFC has changed many people especially if they lost their jobs as a result (like many I know who worked for American owned companies in Australia). Most of them have found work without too many problems unless they were aged in their mid-late fifties.

We are doing well financially and spent less this year than previous years because we are more interested in increasing our nest egg and saving money. We also have become more aware of buying 'things'. Things are not important but spending time with family and friends and living with less emphasis on material goods. We are not unique in this I think, this movement away from mindless consumption is growing.
Posted by pelican, Monday, 27 December 2010 9:16:47 PM
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Now you're making me feel guilty.

I have never been in a Myers store, never bought anything from a David Jones, & have yet to make it to a Boxing day sale.

I did once buy a yacht [which I then lived on for almost 19 years], from the owner of Knock & Kirbys, if that counts. Do they still exist?

Other wise I have to admit, I have not done my bit for the prosperity of our consumer society.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 27 December 2010 10:34:04 PM
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"Cocaine sales in Sydney are booming, like never before".

Prior to the recent cocaine importation drug busts within the last 3 months Nationwide Yabby which has set the industry back significantly. Watch the media sensationalism, as you would know, it is often crap.

Nevertheless, I always agree with your 'choice' facts and theories along with giving the credit cards a rest.

In relation to the purchasing of shares for the average families struggling with high interest rates/20-30 year mortgages while paying off a little vehicle, fuel costs, rego, insurances for home, contents, vehicle, tyres, dealing with high water and energy utilities, food prices, medical, education, the cost of crime setbacks, the unforseen costs involved with childrens illnesses, disabilities, dental, technology required for education, clothing, excursions for kids, forget a break for those earning under $42,000 raising 1-4 children, the list is endless.

Families make up a high proportion of our population Yabby.

I would love you to be a realist, stop for a moment, and think to yourself "how would I cope and survive working on a $42,000 income or less, raising 3 or 4 children, starting from scratch, with no handouts from family or government, no land left to me through the family, no superannuation, living in suburbia".

How many flaming shares could a parent or both working on low incomes purchase over the years whilst dealing with unforseen obstacles such as crooks, natural disasters, paying for funerals, paying for the treatment of childrens illnesses, disabilities and a host of other unforseen events that occur with the average family
Posted by we are unique, Monday, 27 December 2010 11:32:25 PM
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Oh...and Yabby, please don't spin me the 'cop out' line, where you state words to the effect of 'people choose to have children' therefore they should face the burden of child raising/family costs". I read your unrealistic comment on an economy based thread this year at some stage.

The reality is that many people gave birth to children ten or fifteen years ago when mortgages and interest rates were a great deal lower, home prices were half the price, utilities and other costs half the price with the range of technology and its costs not required for a child's education. More expensive excursion costs [both public and private], more expensive clothing and footwear for children required, as I said, the list is endless as other Australian parents live the reality and situation.
Posted by we are unique, Monday, 27 December 2010 11:58:38 PM
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*how would I cope and survive working on a $42,000 income or less, raising 3 or 4 children, starting from scratch, with no handouts from family or government, no land left to me through the family, no superannuation, living in suburbia*

Oh, that is quite easy, Unique. For a start, I would tie a knot
in the line, ending at 2, much to the horror of the Catholic Church.
Breed like rabbits if you will, at your own expense. Don't expect
sympathy from me.

What do smart couples do? They did it years ago and it worked just
fine. Shack up together, both working. Bank one wage, live on the
other. Within 3-4 years, you've paid for half a house.

Buy shares if you want, they will give you a future, unlike
make up, more cds and even more shoes. Your fella will love you
for what you are, not for the new shoes, otherwise find a new one.

It works like a charm, as smart women have proven to me. But I
admit, they are not that common.

The majority prefer to complain about how tough life is, because it
does not fall their way, on a plate.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 12:24:52 AM
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LOL...right
Posted by we are unique, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 1:10:30 AM
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It was somewhat easier when it was still the lucky or rather conservative country but when Whitlam & subsequent Labor outfits changed that status our luck ran out. We never managed to become Hawkies' clever country but had no qualms about turning it into a Banana Republic via Keatinge. He managed this by safely betting on the ignorance of the baby boomers who never had to learn to save & manage. The baby boomers are now facing the prospect of watching their babies sliding towards a mayhem orchestrated by contempory idealist lefties. As the old adage goes, meaning well just isn't good enough. We always get the success stories of this & that enterpreneur or this'n that new technology but we never get to hear about the massive slides society makes towards unsustainability of this mentality. Just because it doesn't happen to many doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It does & it's becoming a problem to those who care to care.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 8:22:52 AM
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Australia is full of whingers. You come in on the market when interest rates are at rock bottom and somehow you expect them to stay there.
A very immature and naive whinger.
If you don't have the nous to factor in interest rate rises, you shouldn't be in the market.
Spare a thought for the people that have to live on interest rates. All you think of is yourself.
Posted by 579, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 9:21:07 AM
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Individual:

Just to clarify a few things for you. My parents came to this country as displaced persons (refugees from war-torn Europe after World War II). I can assure you I am well aware of having to survive on the bare minimum (and sometimes less) my family had to do it for many years. I didn't know we were poor, because my parents worked hard to ensure that their children were fed and looked after. I've worked hard all of my life, and whatever you may think I now have, I've earned. As for my comments about swapping places to SOG, that was done tongue-in-cheek.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 10:00:34 AM
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Look I like to be honest.
I do you know, lieing to our selves is not worth while is it?
My early comments in this thread got it wrong.
Government has ruined Christmas for SOME Australians.
As some know I am now an ex nothing more ex than an ex but I had the honor to be a cog in Australia's best trade union.
Sad but it hurt the rotten things that impact on some workers.
John Howard, his WORKCHOICES impacted on bush workers low income and small job workers.
A great sad number put their names on a 5 year agreement, FORCED IN FEAR OF DISMISSAL on many.
It has not yet ran out.
so until it does some WORK CHRISTMAS DAY , some get only one public Holiday,some get none.
Some have had no pay rises for 3 years and will not for the next two.
Some never will worry about interest rates they never will own a home WORKCHOICES still has them harnessed to the boss.
SOG do you know any low paid timber workers who live in rented bosses homes, work 48 hours normal time for 40 hours pay.
Who get loans from him to register the car?
Who are OWNED for life by debt and hopelessness to such a life.
John Howard/Tony Abbott do not either.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 10:38:07 AM
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Yabby, you never disappoint, so I am a glass half empty guy and you are a happy little vegemite. As Individual said you do not represent a majority of plebs in this land of ours. Or should I say theirs, as "your" corporations have bought and continue to buy all the tradable assets this commonwealth possesses, and that thanks to the crop of traitorous "new world order" politicians on both sides of the fence since the mid seventies. Your other little line about "breeding like rabbits" and the Catholics is a gem, what will be your next little pearl of advice "let them eat cake"?

About your mate from the AFR and his "we never had it better figures" here are some ABS figures for you to contemplate:

National household savings as a percentage of GDP
1970/ 18% of GDP
1990/ 11% of GDP
2000/ 7% of GDP
2010/ 2% of GDP
I will not bore you with how much we as individuals owe the money lenders or how much we as tax payers owe money lenders as opposed to thirty years ago. What would be the point, you would see it as a marker to a vibrant economy, and it is not. It is an indicator to a flourishing off shore corporate base that has decimated our “savings” wealth and hocked us up to the eye balls to buy their products.

Yabby have we not been down this track before, I believe the more funds you have and the less you owe is a marker to economic strength while you think the less we have and the more we owe is a marker to economic stability and consumer prosperity.
Posted by sonofgloin, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 11:23:09 AM
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*as "your" corporations have bought and continue to buy all the tradable assets this commonwealth possesses*

Sheesh Songofgloin, those corporations are largely owned by the
workers, through those 1.3 trillion$ of Superannuation payments.
I own my teeny bit, I run my own super fund, no boss pays
the 9% every week for me.

You are confusing Australian workers savings and the annual savings
rate. Yup, that has gone down over time, as people became less
frugal and more spend their whole salaries. Not too many sewing
their own clothes these days, as they used to etc.

How will people learn to be frugal again? Hard times teach them.
A whole couple of generations don't know hard times, they want
everything now. Aussies have been living it up, like Americans.

Belly, I acknowledge that trade unions have a role to play, but let
me tell you what happened this morning. The local roadhouse only
opened at 8am and he's closing at 4pm. 4 days, as two public
holidays given. If he hired staff he would have to pay double time.
Add super and workers comp, its 46 bucks an hour he'd have to pay.
Its simply not worth his while, so he told his staff to stay home.
He's better off doing less business and they get 0 pay. That is
what is happening under the new rules.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 11:56:55 AM
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Belly:>> As debates rage about increased interest rates mining tax's and heaps of evidence we are far out in front of most of the world b the thread amuses me.<<

Belly let’s not exhaust all our amusement at this paltry offering as your comment should bring amusement to many as well.

So with a track record of 40 years behind the fluoro safety vest coupled with your ideological dependency on the left you are telling me things are great, you’re another bloody Yabby except Yabby is openly on the side of the bosses.

Belly the "far out in front of the world" post GFC is a joke right, or are you serious? Why I say that is our government was in surplus, our financial institutions did not expose themselves to anywhere near the level of nearly all Northern Hemisphere money lenders, our banking shares did not plummet, banks did not need bailing out, we kept digging it up and shipping it out, unemployment did not sky rocket, in short Belly what GFC in Australia.

Your Labor party borrowed and blew 100 billion on crap we did not ask for and got half the cost value of, so your need to carry the "spin" line of Rudd “saved our arses” is factually complete rubbish.

Belly you are certainly not credentialed to decide on what a joke is and what is not. You have a failure of reality based around your need to see the implementation of an ideology. One that is not even practiced by the gaggle of Lawyers now running state and federal party rooms for Australia’s premier blue collar party, now that’s a joke worth a laugh for you Belly. These Lawyers that represent the Labor party are hollow my comrade and that you don’t see that is a concern when it comes to your future utterances.
Posted by sonofgloin, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 12:38:13 PM
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Lexi:>> Just to clarify a few things for you. My parents came to this country as displaced persons (refugees from war-torn Europe after World War II). I can assure you I am well aware of having to survive on the bare minimum<<

Lexi, god it must have been hell on earth in Australia post WWII, how did you survive? How many of your poor starving siblings died here in Australia before the Red Cross got to them. Did your folks find work, did they buy a family home, did they come with nothing and make a secure life for themselves, thats what everybody did in the Australia of then.

The conceit you display in the fact that you and yours have security that was built in a time when if you worked you got on and if you wanted to work there was "real" skill based productive work waiting for you.

Lexi youth unemployment is 30% , we have no manufacturing bases left and a house in the suburbs averages at half a million, this is not the land of opportunity that your folks landed in any longer. Your attitude is “I and mine are all right Jack so tough titties to those who are not”.

Finally I won’t have a wrong word said about Canadians excepting those from Quebec.
Posted by sonofgloin, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 1:09:42 PM
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yabby, mate, first look that was not a stone you hurled at me, a single chook feather mate.
THAT LAW was in place under Bob Menzies is it is not new.
SOG first job age 13 bush kid, last, [maybe not] 65plus 4 months.
Worked a bit more than 40 years.
Now quick lesson mate, each of us has views ideas thoughts me you yabby.
The very hardest thing is to understand it is more than unlikely we ever get most right, even close.
Now if one of us did we would stop growing learning, achieving, life would be pointless knowing every thing would be boring.
I have to except right now, more people want your side in power than mine.
But can you except one vote one value my party would never be out of office federally?
Sit still SOG it is my turn, I do not look for balance from you or advice.
One of us is more right than the other.
I am content to read the form carefully,study the track and back myself to win by a short half head ok?
Be nice now thanks for the insults nice to know I am not your mate,I got that, it cheers me no end.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 2:05:43 PM
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*THAT LAW was in place under Bob Menzies is it is not new.*

Belly, I don't care if that law was in place under Gengis Khan
lol, I am not about politics, but good or bad policies.

Now if the law was somewhat reasonable, people were paid
20-30% extra on public holidays, many small employers might
wear it. As it stands now, being enforced now, unlike before,
alot of women who could have done with the extra cash, will
miss out. It was not an issue under workchoices, it is
under Gillard, pushed by unions.

*we have no manufacturing bases left*

Some people repeat this rubbish over and over and its simply not
correct. What would you like to buy, Sonofgloin?

An Australian made house, car, dishwasher, washing machine,fridge,
welder, mining machinery, farm equipment, various chemicals,
various drugs, ferries, furniture, food, the list is endless,
all still made here.

Yes, manufacturing has changed, ie more mining equipment etc, as
we do more mining then in the 60s. Manufacture has also shrunk,
as new services, like the internet, have created enormous amounts
of jobs in other areas.

If meatworks can't find meatworkers and manufacturers can't find
even welders, then clearly the problem is skilled staff.

Perhaps you should look at training more of those teenagers,
for flipping burgers won't do it for them, in a skilled economy.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 2:50:49 PM
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Belly:>> Be nice now thanks for the insults nice to know I am not your mate,I got that, it cheers me no end.<<

You are absolutely incorrect I have a load of time for you, and Yabby for that matter, although Yabby's politics don't suit me at all, but much of yours do.

When we discussed the NSW right and you conceded that you could see the ideological rot and the poison of personalities having totally ruined the management platform I thought great, an old style unionist that calls a spade a spade. That is a unionist, where the plebs tell them what will be good for them, rather than the Labor political commissars deciding they know what is good for the plebs and that is that.

This government is big on talk fests, ultimately reviewing every issue imaginable, but the "spinners" choose the audience the speakers and the terms of reference, making every outcome one that mirrors their policy direction.

When I first joined I told you my old man was unionist for the dockside workers and coming from that background when I went to uni I was intrigued to watch middle and upper class kids with too much Bertram Russell in their thoughts morph into a new generation of Fabian ideologues. There was no longer discussions about the rights of the pleb, it was about the international game plan and discussed in the ruthless language of those who have not suffered hardship with total disdain for the casualties of their policies who they accept as collateral damage.

Belly if you believe this Labor government is competent then you are bereft of reality, as I said you are probably blinded by your historical ideology and memories of a Labor party that represented the average Aussie rather than the subset of youth and the inexperienced that Swan and Gillard chased relentlessly on FM radio during the federal campaign.
Posted by sonofgloin, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 4:32:08 PM
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SOG>>*we have no manufacturing bases left*<<
Yabby:>>Some people repeat this rubbish over and over and its simply not correct. What would you like to buy, Sonofgloin?<<

Well Yabby, right on the rhetoric again, this from the ABS IN 2009.

"The Australian economy is dominated by its service sector, representing 68% of Australian GDP. The agricultural and mining sectors (10% of GDP combined) account for 57% of the nation's exports."

Do you understand what is being said here Yabby:

68% of our GDP comes from flipping burgers
10% of our GDP comes from growing and digging
22% of our GDP comes from things we make

Given that mining at 10% of GDP is 60% of our exports we can safely say that manufactured and exported goods are around 10% of GDP.

This leaves locally produced products for domestic sale at about 10% of GDP and if we did not have a car industry that pumped out products with an asp of $40k we would be producing 5% of GDP to sustain our internal market needs.

Yabby you trot out the big ticket items that we still produce as a validation of our strong manufacturing segment, that is a rubbish argument. The clothes, shoes, toys, and nearly every other item under every Xmas tree in Australia two days ago came from overseas, deny that.

There are only twenty million of us and we have been experiencing the biggest mining boom in our history and yet we are in hock, as I said household savings are at 2%, down from 18% thirty years ago, they are selling or have sold off all our utilities, they are selling our water rights to big business and you as a peasant should understand the implications of that Yabby.
Posted by sonofgloin, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 5:28:56 PM
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*68% of our GDP comes from flipping burgers*

Err, not just flipping burgers, Sonofgloin.
Services include health, education, retail, tourism, hospitality,
administration, banking, telecommunication etc.
A huge and vital part of our economy. Health and education alone
are enormous.

*The clothes, shoes, toys, and nearly every other item under every Xmas tree*

Do you know what their value is, at the point of import, Sonofgloin?
Peanuts. Far more value is added from port to consumer, then
it ever cost to make these things. A tshirt is worth 4 bucks.
A pair of shoes 5-6 bucks. Most of that consumer dollar stays
right here, paid in rents, wages, taxes, transport etc.

All that cheap China stuff you think, yet it still only makes up
for 18% or so of our imports.

Where are our big money imports? Petroleum, drugs, machinery,
cars. Petroleum is by far the biggest, IIRC

*There are only twenty million of us and we have been experiencing the biggest mining boom in our history and yet we are in hock*

For how long has this mining boom been going on, Sonofgloin?
Its quite recent actually.

*they are selling or have sold off all our utilities, they are selling our water rights to big business*

Not so in WA, Sonofgloin. Water and power both Govt owned. Mind you,
I do think our state is better managed then NSW or Qld.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 6:50:37 PM
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SOG:

You appear to be stunningly ignorant in your knowledge of the history of this country and what refugees had to put up with when they came as part of The Displaced Persons Scheme, established in 1947 between the Australian Government and the International Refugee Organisation, which saw 170,000 displaced people arrive in Australia between 1947 and 1951. They were not exactly welcomed with open arms. Times were tough for them, very tough. But I won't go into the details, I'll simply suggest that you do a bit of research on the topic. I did have siblings who perished. They died of starvation and illness and it wasn't only the Red Cross who helped but the International Refugee Organisation as well.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 7:27:52 PM
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SOG:

cont'd ...

My attitude is not "I'm allright Jack," as you imply. That's your reality not mine. I never take anything fro granted, never have, never will. That's not my ethos. And as I've written in the past:

"I have wept in the night
For the shortness of sight
That to somebody's need made me blind
But I have never yet
Felt a tinge of regret
For being a little too kind!"
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 7:41:40 PM
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Lexi I notice that you just disregard the factual stuff I mentioned about Australia being a land of opportunity if you were a hard worker and slightly intelligent back in the day compared to now. You choose to run with the ever popular "we were discriminated against, we worked for everything we have, and no one gave us anything."

Well Lexi what Australia did give your folks and you is a stable political platform that guarantees tenure of your rights.

A surety of the right to possession along with a police force employed to protect that right.

You got a judicial system that meant that they could not lock you up without a hearing before a Magistrate and in a timely manner.

You got a governed wage system that protected you against exploitation.

You got a school in your neighborhood and a hospital in your district.

You got water gas sewage and electricity in the dwelling.

What is your expectation of what your new country can do for you?

I have no empathy for your "embattled post WWII emigrant" bleating. If you had emigrated 150 years before that then I would say you did it tough but post war Australia was better than post war Europe and given the obvious individual success of migrant groups in Australia I don’t think they were disadvantaged for too long or too hard as you are suggesting. Now the Nazi and the Fascist knew how to discriminate and that is why your folks came to this god forsaken land, I am glad they came but I have doubts about you.
Posted by sonofgloin, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 9:07:53 PM
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Lexi
I have been eyeing off this thread for a while; its time for a history lesson. You may have PTSD from life in a war zone in Europe post 1945, if so I genuinely sympathise with you. What you must remember is Australians sacrificed themselves in huge numbers to overthrow dictator regimes throughout Europe (Mussolini being one notable contender) in order to save Europe from itself. But that truth is but the half of it. While war in Europe raged, Australia had a second front of its own closer to home. A life and death struggle for the survival of Australia and its way of life fought against an invading army from Japan. Here a big tick to the Americans, without which we would be flying a very different flag.

It was galling to say the least for our returned servicemen and their families to witness the influx of foreigners from Europe given a free pass to our country who we had recently bombed the crap out of as the enemy. An unhappy situation compounded by the compliance of the same foreigners to lower wages and scoop up scarce resources, in particular housing, Australians considered they had the rights to exclusively at that time. I know this since I lived in a typical returned serviceman’s household in that era.

It is true what you say, at the time immigrants were not popular and in the most part were not welcome, but that confliction was not the view of our Government who considered this country needed workers at any cost as development fodder. Nothing changes, the same cry rings true today as a cry for skilled overseas workers at any cost again rings out and Universities pander to the money offering tuition and Citizenship to foreign students as a reward for their money. Australian kids do without meaningful university education and go begging as a consequence of inflated tuition fees and plain unaffordability and are rated number two to wealthy foreigners. You may now add xenophobic to homophobic if you wish to describe the above as an attitude.
Posted by diver dan, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 10:21:46 PM
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OK SOG you should know I agree, my posts shout I am from the right with in the party but unhappy with party direction.

But my view strong honest, frightening, is greens can never be the alternative.
But they can/may I fear will, keep labor out of power for decades.
I do not seek a workers world, no government not intent on being for most should ever rule.
That would put Liberals back in the box.
Do you know,SOG I already feel left out, forgotten because I feel too many ride in bosses chairs in my union, that consolidation and the right person can cut waste costs and deliver the people that matter better services.
That MATES do not make better officials, that solidarity with failures in that job forgets those who matter most, members.
only the best should serve, and ego is not always an asset.
Yabby, bloke, Tod puddle,you never heard of it? I can not spell it but unions started after workers tried to form a union , got to be sent in chains here as convicts.
overtime on holidays is fair, just as the boss charging a service fee on such days.
you seem to want price control for workers and not your self,,free market is the answer.
I will start a thread one day on wage control.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 5:51:54 AM
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SOG:

Firstly let me correct an impression that you have about me. I was born in Australia. My parents fled from the second Soviet occupation of their country. They came along with most post-war refugees as indentured labour, that is, every migrant over the age of 18 had to enter into a two year contract with the Australian government which obliged the migrant to work wherever directed. The contracts were strickly enforced, even if it meant that families were split up. People were unable to work in their professions as their qualifications were not recognised. Unlike the "guest-workers" in Europe, the migrants arriving in Australia after the Second World War were expected by the Australian Government to settle permanently and to completely assimilate. This explicit policy was highlighted by the creation, in 1947, of the Assimilation Branch of the Australian Department of Immigration. You write about what Australia has given
the migrants but you don't mention what they contributed to Australian society. The initial two-year work contracts were the migrants' first major contribution to Australia. They helped to solve an acute labour shortage in Australia, especially in outlying areas. The relieved the shortage of domestic staff in hospitals, increased the output of building material, helped to build Australian homes, saved fruit and sugar crops, maintained railways, worked in sawmills, brick factories, salt and brown coal mining, clearing land, quarring, et cetera. At Wooroloo T.B. Sanatorium in Western Australia, the migrants solved a real crisis when the sanatorium staff had shrunk from 80 to 13. The sanatorium was on the point of turning away patients when 40 Baltic women were allotted to it and normal services were restored. At Gipplsand Hospital, Victoria, 28 Balts made possible the opening of a new T.B. ward. In New South Wales, 60 Balts enabled hospitals to keep several wards open, and the list goes on.
Did I mention the Snowy Mountains Hydro-Electric Scheme?
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 9:38:13 AM
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cont'd ...

As Phillip Adams wrote in an article in The Age:

"It's important to remember Australia BEFORE the wave of immigration. It was dull, self-satisfied and joylessly conformist. Not simply null and boring, but nullarboring. Not merely mindless, but lobotomised.
Of course, the option of multi-culturalism involves taking some considerable risks - but almost every human advance is based on experiment, innovation and adventure..."

And for your further information the multicultural nature of Australian society today means that there is no single national identity but a gathering of many cultures, and this is one of the most, unique and rewarding aspects of living in Australia. The nature of being Australian is to be part of this diversity. The wide and varied gathering of "identities" is ain keeping with the sense of potential and openness so many peole enjoyed on coming here. I personally feel privileged to have been able to make a home here but also to have found my own sense of belonging. You can think whatever you like of me - I can do the same about you. I think that's only fair.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 9:52:50 AM
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Lexi you put that well.
No need ever existed to convince me.
I grew up in that world and worked shoulder to shoulder with those migrants.
Current xenophobia, I must admit to a strong case myself, is based on not what country but what religion some have.
No religion has the right to impose on me its fables
No not a popular thing to say, but still true.
A day will come, I am sure of it, that sees us review the good this wave of migration brings to us.
Worth under lining, boat people aside BOTH party's support increased migration and from the same country's as the very boat people who bring the concerns.
If only we had only one God world wide we could leave this debate forever.
I feel those who try to make me feel guilty for being part of the majority, people opposed to minority's demanding WE CHANGE,,should understand forever they too are a minority.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 1:14:03 PM
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Belly if I may regarding the "Tolpuddle Martyrs" for Yabby's benefit.

In the early 19th Century a handful of farm hands from Dorset formed an "agricultural friendly society". They wanted better wages in a marketplace that had a glut of labour due to industrialization. The land owners were now paying the peasant less due to supply and demand.
Before any mass migration to the friendly society (quasi union) they arrested the half dozen instigators and charged them with "swearing an oath to a secret society" and briskly transported them to Australia. That was in the social studies curriculum in primary school in my time.

Belly, Yabby comes from a universe far far away but he is still one of us, a worker who contributes to the whole, but he is from another universe.
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 1:14:09 PM
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Lexi I agree with everything you mentioned regarding the nothing but positive outcomes that post WWII European migration has delivered.

My issue is your attitude. To paraphrase you: we manned the hospitals, we built the houses, we saved the crops, we maintained railways, and we worked in sawmills brick factories, we mined salt and brown coal, we cleared land, and we quarried.

Do you get my drift, it sounds like you did the people who were living here a favour. All the infrastructure was already in place, you maintained it and added to it just like the ones who maintained it and added to it before you got here, It did not all start when you arrived.

Unlike the fascist and communist regimes you escaped from you could choose to work and make a life for yourself just as the immigrants that preceded you by 200 years did, or you could bludge around and reap the meager fruits that brings. You worked you got paid, what did you do that was so special compared to the previous immigrants in a land of immigrants. Nothing Special, anything you did was for you and yours and their futures, just like the Aussie who came before you.
Given that you mentioned Balts, there was another reason that “some” Balts and Ukrainians came to the bottom of the earth and kept their bums up and heads down while kept a low profile, but I won’t go into that now, but Australia was a sanctuary as well as lifeline to thousands
TBC
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 1:15:05 PM
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Lexi, this from you:
“And for your further information the multicultural nature of Australian society today means that there is no single national identity but a gathering of many cultures, and this is one of the most, unique and rewarding aspects of living in Australia. The nature of being Australian is to be part of this diversity.”

I want a single national identity; I want everybody to stick together when we have to. Not the Greeks for the Greeks, the Arabs for the Arabs, and the Yugoslavs for the Yugoslavs etc. A nation can only have one culture but many contributors because culture evolves.
Lexi you are saying “no” to an Aussie culture and each to their own, but in a melded fashion. What culture should we use as a base to build this new melded culture upon? The Arab culture, the Baltic culture, the Italian culture, or the newest immigrants the African culture, which one do we use as a base, or as you suggest we all just do what we want, it’s your right, you are no longer under the nazi’s or the soviets.

You were born here and I bet you are a hell of a lot less Aussie than your folks, who fled unspeakable death and tyranny and probably blessed the day they arrived.
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 1:17:05 PM
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*overtime on holidays is fair, just as the boss charging a service fee on such days.
you seem to want price control for workers and not your self,,free market is the answer.*

Belly, I want no such thing. I am one of the few people who is
able to see both sides, as I have been both an employee and employer.

If your perception of fair means that many people are losing out
on work and money that they could have done with, I call that
stupidity. I believe in win-win situations which benefit everyone.

Where we have this huge problem in Australia, it comes from the
old British system of "them" and "us". Its a dismal failure.

Employers and employees are all in together, they also sink or
swim together.

In the case of country roadhouses, many are not on major highways,
them staying open is as much a community service as anything.
If the figures don't add up, owners will do it themselves or
simply close. Its a lose lose situation.

Next we'll be hearing moans and groans on OLO, about part time
unskilled workers not able to find enough work.

Shoot yourself in the foot if you please, but its not a smart
thing to do. But of course its not you paying the price,
but women who could have done with the money and now make zero.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 1:37:22 PM
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SOG:

I don't know if I'm less Aussie than anybody else, all I know is that
I feel extremely fortunate and have a very powerful sense of belonging. I'm proud of my ancestry, as I think we all should be, however, I definitely could not imagine living anywhere else. This is my country. People continue to come from other countries and make Australia home, and although over 90 percent of Australians are of European descent, a direct result of Australian immigration policies, the population is slowly becoming more representative of the region.
The numbers of new arrivals are growing, and the cultural composition of the country is becoming even more diverse. It shall be interesting to look back in a few decades and see how Australia has evolved - because the only constant is change, and we shall continue to evolve. But enough said. It's what you feel in your heart that matters about where you belong.It is extremely subjective. I know where I belong.
I also know where I came from. The two are inter-twined. As they are for most people. They make us who we are. Thanks for a robust discussion. And I'll possibly see you on another thread. Before I go,
SBS on January 9th, will be showing an interesting program on Australia and her Immigration history - it may be worth watching.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 1:56:29 PM
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government..hasnt ruined xmass...we have
there are many...non xtians..who will gladly do the job
on any holy day...thats the strength of multi culturalisms

just as we cover their jobs..on their holy days
there should be no such thing as a public holy-day
only leave entitlements for those observing the holy

those using the day to strengthen..that most holy
be it their own health..or their family..or their life partner

usa has at least one more public hollyday..than we do
we have ben ripped off in missing..'workers days off'

its dumb to call them 'public'..holidays..
they are rightly..national days..for a break..
from the busy-ness cycle..make the workers work-cycle

its sad to cry poor
mr how-hard...made the busyness cycle run 24/7

gave the willing em-ploy-er's...
workers CONTRACTED..into working every day of the year

you wanna break...then you dont get pay
no more holiday pay
nor annuel leave
nor paid leave
no sick pay

govt has done its prrile vile well
yet public..servants..get their public holidays
get their vairiable overtly generous super pension scemes

govt linkage of public servants pay..to poli-tic-ians
public sir-vice...to the parle-meant..pen-zion sceme
the party machinations..the colluded deciets...

mate who can we blame..but the govt..

ie..[the servants advising..and allowing..the excesses..
by these fly-ins..[party machine men]..every few years]..

selling out..the people of the common weal..
they are meant to be serving...not bleeding blooming dry
working to death...treating like serfs..criminaling..by stealth..

taxing into early graves
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 3:30:43 PM
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Yabby if we, all who have contributed to this thread, sat around and watched a federation year documentary we could learn much.
The country was far different people fashions and views.
We would be shocked to see our ancestors calling an England they may never have seen home.
Even you would be less than happy with the life workers had,almost owned by bosses.
Unions of those days even the great Australian Workers Union would be small but growing.
Move with me to the days Sir Robert Menzies governed us[lets be clear I dislike him ] he was the founder of todays Liberal party.
Idolized by John Howard still, he crafted his life in politics on him.
Pig Iron Bob or Ming had a view on every thing.
He was far more Liberal than those who control his party,and almost impossible to remove.
He however said these things, every worker has the right to be represented by a union.
Every worker has the right to a fair days pay.
And he did something my Labor leader never will, said workers should have the right to Arbitration.
Unions have changed,bosses too, never defended the radical extremism of you know who.
Never forgot unions must continue to evolve change and improve.
But let me tell you why we need unions
TBC
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 30 December 2010 5:17:25 AM
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CIVILIZATION,big word yabby but what is it.
What binds us together to live as one country group or state.
Once dictatorships or kingdoms we dreamed of better,Socialism was a great idea but bound to fail.
No idea that takes the need to be better, the rewards for being better away can work.
Nothing we do can be perfect,nothing can stop some falling ,some cheating some committing crimes to be better off.
A town, take any one, can best describe my idea, every dollar paid in wages is spent in that town say.
Look around that new home with the car had to be paid for, you may sell some sheep you worked hard to get to market.
If the bloke who brings the fuel to you,or takes the sheep to market lives in a tin shed who will eat those sheep.
Wages are no different than those sheep and vital to our community.
Consumerism drives productivity and the reverse is true.
We do not question the bankers wages Doctors or plumbers but rant on about fair wages?
If a single hourly rate all hours worked was forced on us, it would need assurances it would have rules that can not be broken.
Workers want to have weekends to be with the kids and Friends.
For half a century ,more, overtime is what it is called.
Penalty rates for imposing on free time.
Shift workers do not get double time.
Last,with good Wil I could craft a EBA that pleased all in that work place, but only if and its a big if, the employer is human and not just a grub who thinks he/she owns the workers.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 30 December 2010 5:35:40 AM
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*Workers want to have weekends to be with the kids and Friends.
For half a century ,more, overtime is what it is called.
Penalty rates for imposing on free time.*

Belly, you remain totally confused on the points that I am making.
I have said nowhere, that unions don't have a role to play. I have
said nowhere that workers should not be paid a reasonable wage or
even a bit extra for working weekends. But I put to you a case,
where union power and ignorance is costing workers money, here
and today. Your response, you try to preach history to me.

Belly, we live here and today. Union leaders are hardly the sole
owners of intelligence or fairplay. We need win-win solutions,
not lose lose solutions, like the one that I have described.

Its when union leaders obtain more power then they have brains,
that we land up with these disasters.

I had to smile recently, when one of your AWU leaders went to the
press, claiming the evils of fly in fly out for miners. His own
workers shot him down in flames in the comments, telling him they
were not about to move their families into the 40 degree heat and
flies of the mines, to get real.

The women I am mentioning would most likely be quite happy to
earn 30 bucks an hour for weekend work. They are casual workers
anyhow, not full time workers. Yet union stubbornness that they
should be paid double or nothing at all, means they get nothing
at all. That is our difference Belly. I talk about here and
now with real people, you preach about history and much as I think
that you are a nice bloke, in this case you are clearly wrong.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 30 December 2010 9:24:53 AM
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Open your mind yabby to the other side, yes I did introduce history.
I Wanted to underline the simple truth ,we change, but some of us drag past wrongs along with them.
The basis for penalty rates is set by other than unions now.
Do you want ,truly, an end to weekends?
Socializing, family time, sport need weekends.
Do not blindly blame unions for your highlighted problems.
As a once interstate truck driver let me tell you, almost no such workers are even in a union.
A almost every boss in such places hunts for and employees folk on social security while under paying them.
These criminal bosses are the loudest in screaming about wages.
How many, show me one,do not charge surcharge on holidays.
Fact is very likely that person was not even born when penalty rates first came in.
Some unions are wrong, some bosses too, the hospitality industry is as bent as any and that is the other side to your mates complaint.
Want to fix it?
Tell me how.
But think on this, next stimulus package instead of wasting it our government could reduce tax on hospitality industry over time to compensate for low wages already paid.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 30 December 2010 10:46:05 AM
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pelican:>> We are doing well financially and spent less this year than previous years because we are more interested in increasing our nest egg and saving money.<<

Pel we spent less than last year because the banks tightened credit, I don't know of any pleb who has decided, "this year I will save money". Our national household savings was 18% of GDP thirty years ago and now it is struggling to hit 2% of GDP. Australian households have not saved money in the last twenty years. Our disposable income has dwindled because of "fixed costs" going through the roof.

The fixed costs I mention are food, fuel, utilities, telco, government charges and taxes. Why I mention this is regarding our ability to save that nest egg. Thirty years ago the suburban pleb took home $200 in the hand and the nothing special suburban house was $34,000. Thirty years later the plebs take home is $600 and the same house now costs $340,000. Wages went up 300% and house costs went up 1000%.

Thirty years ago we had twenty grocery chains, some chains were national and some were state based. Now we have two, Woolies or West farmers, take your pick. These same two duopolies control petrol pricing along with the retail liquor industry in Australia.

Pel we have no chance of saving a cracker when the triopoly of the banks and the duopoly of the mass merchants have no competition. My current beef is the disappearance of Australian food items on the grocery shelves, these bastards that have our market cornered are now importing the majority of crap they sell to us. Are there no Australians for Australia left, the plebs are simpletons but where have our pragmatic and Aussie biased statesmen gone? A generational change I believe, I hope it changes back.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 30 December 2010 12:51:44 PM
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pelican :>> We also have become more aware of buying 'things'. Things are not important but spending time with family and friends and living with less emphasis on material goods. We are not unique in this I think, this movement away from mindless consumption is growing.<<

Yabby tried to blame our current situation on ourselves as well, Pel I will say to you what I said to Yabby. Today I could take $5000 and buy a washing machine, dryer, microwave, fridge, TV, DVD, music center, and computer and that is about the extent of our indulgent consumer spending, the rest goes on food petrol rent/ mortgage and transport.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 30 December 2010 12:52:32 PM
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Yabby:>> Next we'll be hearing moans and groans on OLO, about part time unskilled workers not able to find enough work.<<

Yabby you and Belly were discussing a roadhouse in the middle of no where and you have the hide to use it as marker to the plethora of jobs available if you are prepared to move to the Gobi desert.

Yabby:>> I talk about here and now with real people, you preach about history and much as I think that you are a nice bloke, in this case you are clearly wrong.<<

This line is apt, “those who forget history are doomed to repeat it".
For as much as you consider Belly a "nice bloke" you would do to him what he would not do to you, and that is try to screw and negotiate your way out of paying him what is due to him. That is the reason we have an arbitration system, so the pleb does not rise up and guillotine you Yabby.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 30 December 2010 1:14:54 PM
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I have never been a fan of weekend work, except where it is absolutely necessary. You can't stop a blast furnace, & the tourist industry is a 7 day a week creature, but I could not believe when we were silly enough to introduce 7 day, & late night shopping.

Sure it suited the big two, as it got rid of a lot of small players, but it increased the unit cost of selling stuff, when more staff were required for longer hours, to sell the same groceries.

My father was in retail, & Saturday mornings stuffed things up enough for the family, I wouldn't want to be in it today.

Having said that, I was in the tourist boat industry industry, a 7 day a week operation if ever there was one. No Belly, no one charged a surcharge on weekends, it was not practical. Many employees offered to work weekends for standard money, as they preferred week days off. One disadvantage of cruising around the Whitsundays all day was, it made it hard to get to Townsville when shops were open in those days.

These people were pretty well payed, working a 10/11 hour day, as a matter of course, due to the nature of the business, & we had 3 complete crews to operate the 2 large boats. When that fool pilot strike made it impossible to run the boats full time, I had to offer the 15 involved the choice of going on a 4 day week, or 5 of them loosing their jobs.

They all went for a 4 day week, & fortunately we were able to find another day each, on the smaller boats, for the couple of crew who had big mortgages to pay.

When things went back to normal, many of them said that they had preferred the 4 day week, even for somewhat less money. After all it doesn't make too much sense to be in heaven, & have to work every day.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 30 December 2010 1:25:03 PM
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*Do you want ,truly, an end to weekends?
Socializing, family time, sport need weekends.
Do not blindly blame unions for your highlighted problems.*

Come on Belly, union barons now run Canbbera, face it.
What you are now saying is that some union baron thinks
he knows what is best for the punters out there, so
he should enforce it.

Has it ever occured to you that we are all different?
Some people value weekends, others don't. Some people
want to play sport others don't. I am not that arrogant
as to claim to tell people how they should live and try to
enforce it by law.

I met a guy recently, his employer pays him 50$ an hour.
He works 2 days a week by choice. The rest of his time,
he likes to play golf. He has no mortgage, thats more then
enough for what he needs. I met his employer and he told
me his life story. I asked him why he was paying his worker
such a good rate. The guy was clear. He was a great worker
who knew his job, it was worth it to him to pay him extra
and keep him for the days that he chose to work.

My point is Belly, the world is changing. I was around when
the AWU tried to enforce narrow combs in the shearing industry
and they were ridiculed by their own members, many who left.
They could shear more sheep, for the same pay per head with wide gear,
yet your union stuck its head in the sand. Sorry, but you
won't stop a changing world.

The thing is, we need a balance of the powers, not a return to
union skulldudgery, or everyone in Australia will lose.

Right now, they have just cost some women who needed the money,
their weekend work. Hardly intelligent.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 30 December 2010 2:47:22 PM
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*Pel we spent less than last year because the banks tightened credit, I don't know of any pleb who has decided, "this year I will save money*

In this case Sonofgloin, Pelican is actually quite correct and you
are wrong. If you bother to buy a 29th December 2010 copy of the
AFR, right there on page 21, is an article about how due to the
GFC and people becoming nervous, the savings rate has increased to
10%, from 2% in 2005

You might not know any pleb who saves money, but I know plenty.

Tell me something Sonofgloin, you once bitterly complained about your
huge power bill. Do you use a clothes dryer for instance?
Have you ever considered using the sun and wind instead? Do you
too own a large plasma tv screen?

Be honest now.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 30 December 2010 2:56:27 PM
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Yes yabby no defense wide combs stuffed the AWU for a while.
Stupid and childish ,but you go back in history to find it.
Our life is centered around weekends.
If union barons exist in Canberra, they are as useless as those on a bull.
Gillard, once left then right, useless as the above has not delivered fairness.
One day a BRILLIANT UNIONIST Bill Shorten will win even you over.
Now hasbeen, you are right, in part yabby too, some willingly work weekends.
Not however most, what does the world do here, anyone know?
I can report I worked extra normal time, to gain two 3 day weekends off a month, loved it.
Some work 10 hours 4 day weeks some 3 12 hour shifts.
Those smelters brick yards and more have to be kept going.
Can any one see us having our football finals on Monday, think of the sickies.
However, with assurances it will not kill weekends[see the last weekend campaign against workchoices] we can get around this.
It however will hurt a lot off shonky bosses who do hire social security folk at low wages.
Shift loading is not a lot, an extra weeks holiday pay is paid to most as a reward.
Bosses who use a lot of over time should be able to come up with a fair agreement.
Arbitration by the way no longer exists in the true way it once did.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 30 December 2010 4:06:52 PM
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I am still expecting innovation from my government.
Tax cuts for low income earners none for high earners is a start.
A lessor tax rate for overtime in tourism and hospitality and women on low wages in return for a fixed wage rate could help in an area full of potential.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 30 December 2010 4:10:58 PM
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Yabby:>> If you bother to buy a 29th December 2010 copy of the
AFR, right there on page 21, is an article about how due to the
GFC and people becoming nervous, the savings rate has increased to
10%, from 2% in 2005<<

Yabby I keep quoting you the ABS figures and you quote me newspaper clippings. Once more for your edification:
In 1975 Australian household savings totaled 18% of GDP.
In 2009 it totaled 2% of GDP.
*Source: Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS), Australian National Accounts, cat. no. 5206.0*

So this 10% figure you come up with relates to what? Or did we take 30 years to spend the 18% we had, but grew it to 10% in just a year. You spin and that is all.

Source: Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS), Australian National Accounts, cat. no. 5206.0,

Yabby if it gives you a boogie man you keep blaming the unions and keep regurgitate stories from the old wool sheds. Your reason is evident, basically you think you would be richer if you could rule your employees like a southern cotton plantation master.

At present union members are 25% of the workforce, membership of the Australian trade union movement is now at its lowest level since its official recording began. Your whipping boy is fading away because of non unionised slave labour in Asia, and soon to be replayed in Africa by the way the Chinese are buying it up.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 30 December 2010 4:47:17 PM
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Yabby:>> Tell me something Sonofgloin, you once bitterly complained about your huge power bill. Do you use a clothes dryer for instance?
Have you ever considered using the sun and wind instead? Do you
too own a large plasma tv screen?<<

Yes I have heaps of modern technology, and why should I not, progress brings reward. My kids did not go down coal mines at 12 and I am heir apparent to the evolving technology our forebears. Regarding the power bill, if it rains you use the dryer or you go nude. I had all the same appliances last year, lived the same lifestyle as last year and my bill almost doubled.

Yabby have you got one of those wind turbines that are input neutral to the grid when you consider whole of life costs? I am stuck with drawing from a grid that has exploded costs to the point where people live like cavemen, no light, no heat, welcome to modern prosperous Australia. As I said no Xmas lights in the plebs houses this year, nor next year with the hikes to come including the carbon crap.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 30 December 2010 4:51:06 PM
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Belly:>> I am still expecting innovation from my government.<<

Belly my grandfather used to say to me on such occassions, "you won't get to town on a lame horse".
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 30 December 2010 5:02:27 PM
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Sonofgloin, the figures in the AFR are quoted by Alan Mitchell,
their economics editor. His source is both ABS and RBA. I can
assure you that if the figures quoted by an economics editor of
a financial newspaper were incorrect, he would be out of a job.

Saving rates are a % of disposible income. Financial wealth as a %
of disposible income is running at 270%.

My house has a solar hot water heater, no clothes dryer, I use
the sun and wind, all free. My tv is LED, so uses minimum power.
I have no complaints about my power bill. In winter I chop wood,
or rather cut it with the chainsaw. Saves heaps.

But I know its a human foible. Its so easy to make mistakes in life
and much easier to blame everyone but ourselves, for our situation.
So psychologically, you are well understood, Sonofgloin.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 30 December 2010 5:28:14 PM
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Yabby:>> But I know its a human foible. Its so easy to make mistakes in life and much easier to blame everyone but ourselves, for our situation. So psychologically, you are well understood, Sonofgloin<<

Well thank you Dr Yabby for your diagnosis, my Medibank number is.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 30 December 2010 9:17:39 PM
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oh yabby your just too good..quote]

<<''Saving rates are a % of disposible income.>>
so who earns..disposable income...lol

i know your only quoting numbers..
so your not making it up

BUT..mate...who has [creates/deems]..
how much income..comes from disposables

what its..the wheelie bin income?

let alone this classic spin
<<of disposible income..is running at 270%.>>

aint that one CLEVER
if ALL YOUR..disposable 'income'...this is 100% of your DISPOSABLE..[not real income]

270 percent..of 100 percent
is still only less than 100 percent

lets face it mate you can only bank
up to 100 percent..of ya income
disposable or not,...

only bankers can..'bank'..more
than they get comming in

then we have the absurdity
of using two numbers....

one has been stated,,by son of a
as being 2 percent

<<In 2009 it totaled 2% of GDP.
*Source: Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS),>>

so they say its 2 percent

then you say

<<His source is both ABS and RBA.>>

so he ADDS TWO NUMBERS
a fictionally cumalative..number?

add*..abs TO rba =10 percent?

lets fill in the numbers

abs SAYS=2%
rba..MUST SAY ITS 18%
[to get a medium percenta=age..of 10 percent

unless its 8 percent..[only 4 times abs 's number..lol]
and somehow the most clever guys in exconomics...added them TOGETHER

thats the only way these numbers games can balance

the whole thing seems so bi polar
so scitso-phrenetic

mate the numbers dont simply add up
they then ned to be dived again
so dividing the ecomomist error rounds it down to 5 percebnt

but how can two important depts misslead the auditers so badly

i still cant get over saving 270 percent of 100 percent[max]

but no doudt you got proof

links?
Posted by one under god, Friday, 31 December 2010 6:24:04 AM
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Sigh UOG, you create your own confusions, your really do.

Disposable income is what is left after tax.

Financial wealth means savings over many years, like
money in the bank, so the ratio to disposable income
is simply that, a comparison ratio for economic purposes.

No free links to Australian Financial Review websites sorry,
they charge, in your language about 4 cigarettes.
But you can go down to your newsagent, open the current AFR
to page 21 and read it for yourself.

Sonofgloin's posts are actually quite interesting, as they
reflect the problems we have with a whole generation. No
concept of saving, they are seemingly the heirs to all this
technology so they will use it to the max, expectatations are
sky high and when the weekly income and budget are blown, they
are pissed off. Most don't even know the word frugal, as
people did in the earlier generations.

Now tariffs are seemingly his answer. Hehe. The cost of
consumer goods would skyrocket, there would not be much under
his Xmas tree. So he'd want higher wages to compensate.
His boss would pass that on to consumers, inflation would set
in big time, as we used to have it. The RBA, would have no
choice but to keep on putting up interest rates. He would
be worse off then ever before in his life

But I can see that some are going to require a bit of real
life pain, to understand all this.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 31 December 2010 8:30:00 AM
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The banner on every front page and on every news bulletin ought to read ;
Governments ( Plural ) , have ruined Australia , Plundered its wealth of material and Intellectual capabilities , only leaving a Near lifeless dead carcass in its trail., Christmas is but one National Institution it ruined ; But on an International scale ; Governments have ruined the world ; So what now say any one of us what the theory of government is ?
It has never served you ; Then who?
Posted by All-, Friday, 31 December 2010 10:12:39 AM
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Yabby:>> as they reflect the problems we have with a whole generation. Noconcept of saving, they are seemingly the heirs to all thistechnology so they will use it to the max, expectatations are
sky high and when the weekly income and budget are blown, they
are pissed off. Most don't even know the word frugal, as people did in the earlier generations.<<

Once again Yabby you move the "fault" from the disease to the patient. I don't know how long you have drawn breath but I am certain that during your adolescence and early adulthood you did not have 30% youth unemployment to contend with, you had a fulltime meaningful job and something to save.

OUG thanks for your support and clarification on the "spin" that springs eternal from our WA landed gentry. In my adolescence I went to uni, had as much part time work as I needed paid rent, electricity and food, had a Holden and a Ducati and lived a student’s lifestyle. I have two uni students under my roof and they both work and study and they certainly could not go out and do as I had done given the fixed costs now involved. In short it was cheaper to live back then; even a student with part time jobs could survive.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 31 December 2010 10:31:36 AM
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Ruined the world? stolen Christmas? doom gloom and gee I have bought some of it about!
I was not watching! let my guard down, sitting out there on my veranda sun, king prawns, beer, I thought it had been a great year good Christmas.
I just have to get in line,wipe the smile off my face, start looking for something to cry about.
Sorry team, I will catch up, kicking the dog ok?
As I wait for next year I promise to piddle on my neighbors trees ok?
Sort off Bellyleaks
Posted by Belly, Friday, 31 December 2010 11:11:31 AM
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http://www.indexmundi.com/australia/youth-unemployment-rate.html

Oops Sonofgloin, Australia's youth unemployment rate got less
over the years, from 1990 to 2007.

I never had a single friend who could afford both a Ducati and a
Holden, whilst attending university. That would only have been
for seriously rich kids.

In the early 70s, you'd either make an effort to learn the skills
which employers could use, or you moved to where the work was.

Of course we coped, we simply did without stuff and made do with
what we had. But looking back, it was a great lesson of learning
to appreciate what you had.

Another interesting observation that I've made is that many of those
seriously rich kids, who were given everything, failed in life and
lost most of it. Those kids who faced a bit of adversity when young,
learnt to work and learnt to make the best of what they had.
They have landed up doing far better in life, they also appreciate
what they do have
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 31 December 2010 11:20:22 AM
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This could be a first - but I agree with Yabby's comment about people desiring everything on offer (and there's a lot) and then wondering why the modern version of life requires such expensive upkeep. It's all out there so they gotta have it - right?

sonofgloin - we in Western society are the "royalty" of the world - as far as material availability and enhanced living standards are concerned.
Our planet suffers for our indulgence...I always find it curious when the pampered and fortunate complain of hard times.

(Right on, Belly)
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 31 December 2010 11:30:24 AM
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Well I think that alot of truth is finally coming out on this thread.

Belly, yes you have known hard times in your life, you appreciate
what you have. Small things in life can make us very happy. That
is certainly the case for me, but like you, I've faced hard times.

Sonofgloin sounds more like the spoiled little rich kid, who has
never done it tough. Now he is exaggerating things, to try and
make his point of bitch and moan.

Sorry Sonofgloin, but it won't work. If your power bill has
seemingly doubled, without you changing your lifestyle, then
we can establish the truth here. Either your claim is flawed,
or you are indeed telling the truth. Some power company has doubled
their cost of power per hour, usually expressed in cents/KWh

That would be documented. So which power company has doubled their
cost of electricity in the last couple of years? No doubt they
have a website.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 31 December 2010 1:16:27 PM
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Poirot:>> sonofgloin - we in Western society are the "royalty" of the world - as far as material availability and enhanced living standards are concerned.
Our planet suffers for our indulgence...I always find it curious when the pampered and fortunate complain of hard times.<<

Poirot I always find it curious that eco warriors use electricity, petrol, industrially manufactured products and computers. Move to Arnhem Land and then tell me your eco warrior stuff, because then it would not be just rhetoric.

I agree we are harvesting the efforts of those who went before us, as every generation has, so what’s new or wrong. Just to extend your premise. Why should the western world go back to the 18th century while China India and an emerging Africa leap into the 21st? That is in fact what globalization and a free market was meant to achieve. The money looks long term and the new world consumer base is not Europe or the US it is China, India and Africa. We have been used sent broke and spat out.

Belly about being a misery guts, I only whinge on OLO, I thought that is what it is here for.

Yabby I lived in a single room in Annandale, I had an 63 EJ and a 68 250 desmo, I worked weekends at Grace Bros on Broadway and four nights a week I worked at a club. Uni was free and my family had lived in the inner city from the early 1800s right up to the 80's except for a bunch that went to Safala when the Bathurst gold rush beckoned and stayed on the other side of the mountain.

So I am as common as muck, the old man worked on the wharves which he walked to and from for 40 years and the family lived in Wooloomooloo, Paddington and Strawberry Hills, suburbs where week to week subsistence was the norm, no silver spoon. The only economic windfall from my background is that the properties generated massive returns when the olds passed on, but I had made my own life by then.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 31 December 2010 2:05:35 PM
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>>Business Dynamics:
Electricity prices ‘almost double’ in NSW
By David Olsen on Friday, 19 March 2010
The Independent Pricing and Regulatory Tribunal (IPART), New South Wales pricing regulator has confirmed a 64 percent increase in electricity prices for NSW. With the cost increases due to the increasing costs associated with maintaining the energy networks and the Federal Governments’ Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme (CPRS).<<

Sixty four percent, my apologies. But I’m telling you the previous winter bill was $700 odd and the last $1300; perhaps a bit of extra use perhaps a bit of meter mis reading but those sorts of price hikes send all the few consumables we produce here up. If not a 100% now wait for the Carbon Tax Yabby.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 31 December 2010 2:22:21 PM
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sonofgloin,

Nice try at dismissal...but I'm still here.

I'm not an eco-warrior - just a person that recognises the greed and waste that humans are capable of.
And some of us don't have anything to prove. We choose to live simply and contentedly, using some mod cons but not going overboard.
When it's raining I hang my clothes on a clothes horse (miraculously, they still dry so I don't have to go around nude). I wash my dishes by hand, although I use gas to heat that water....and golly gee! - you'll like this one...I don't own a car.
I'm beginning to think that I'm missing out on a good whinge, though, because I'm really quite content. I don't seem to go without much...must be something wrong with my attitude, I suppose.
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 31 December 2010 2:50:22 PM
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Poirot:>>sonofgloin,
Nice try at dismissal...but I'm still here.<<

And I for one am happy to hear that, happy new year my dear Poirot.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 31 December 2010 3:00:30 PM
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Right back at ya, sonofgloin,
- hope it's a good one.
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 31 December 2010 3:02:53 PM
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Hang on there Sonofgloin, you are getting ahead of yourself lol.
You claim to already face these price increases on your meter,
when nothing further could be the truth.

http://www.industry.nsw.gov.au/energy/customers/questions-electricity-gas-prices#Who-sets-NSW-electricity-prices?

Now if you bother to read that, you will find that most of the
65% would only apply, if a CPRS were to be introduced. So far
price increases of around 10%, as from July 1, are in effect.

So your present claim and justification is frankly bollocks!

But yes, 65% might happen over the next 4 years, if the CPRS
eventually happens.

BTW, the average household consumes around 7500 kwH a year.
At say 20c a unit, that works out to 1500$. Your household
is clearly a huge user of power, compared to most Aussies.

Wharfies? Those bunch of industrial elites, who screwed the rest
of us blind for years. Australian wharves used to be an embarrasment
to the nation. Luckily things have changed.

There you go Sonofgloin, that should brighten up your new year :)
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 31 December 2010 3:54:06 PM
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The State has had the monopoly on the Utilities for ever and today; Prices have been on the rise now for about 5 years, well in excess of CPI, but it is Government, so it does what it pleases;
The reasons why there is a sharp spike in Utilities prises is obvious; The Government has plundered the system for so long now and totally neglected the obvious upgrades and replacement; So not only has it stolen the product before it had been produced, It has devised a new regime of plunder in multiple implementations , The increases are a slap in the face and a subtle reminder of the predatory nature, incompetency and brainless idiocy that calls itself democratic government. It robbed and destroyed the network and now summons you to pay hundreds of times more now than it would have ever cost to build in the first place. And has no intention to add the return to anyone other than themselves.

Belly do not pee under your Nabors tree, do it in your own pockets; you may have enjoyed a marvellous and Exorbitant Christmas pigging out and rubbing others face in it , but ignoring the plight of tens of thousands of others who could not feed themselves because they are being robbed of their Exorbitant life style as some may offer as an excuse, Just in Australia; lets not mention the others on this earth.

So enjoy it while you can , reality has a bad habit of catching up fast – very fast
Posted by All-, Friday, 31 December 2010 8:56:21 PM
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Yabby:>>Wharfies? Those bunch of industrial elites, who screwed the rest of us blind for years. Australian wharves used to be an embarrasment to the nation.<<

The same union that stood up against "Pig Iron Bob" over iron shipments to Japan just months before they declared war on us. The same union that Reith and Costigan conspired with Patricks to illegally restrain so as to allow Patricks to screw the workers.

The bottom line on the wharf disputes is that containers decimated the workforce and saved the bosses millions in payroll, and they could depreciate their equipment capital expenditure, they win both ways.. The union asked for a bit extra for the 20% of the workforce that were left and the greedy companies said no.


>>There you go Sonofgloin, that should brighten up your new year :<<

Yabby you could have wished me a happy new year rather than a slight to start the year off, but if that is who you are then that is who you are. HAPPY NEW YEAR YABBY.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 31 December 2010 11:53:22 PM
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Sonoflgloin, I did put a smiley in there, but never mind. Yup,
I wish you and the rest of OLO a happy 2011.

You did not respond to my points about the power bill. Fair
enough.

Sonofgloin, containers were one of those amazing invetions that
changed the world, for all our benefit. Its through productivity
increases that we achieved our better lifestyle.

A modern and efficient economy needs efficient ports and ours
were a joke. The lists of rorts going on there, were well documented
by 4 Corners and other programmes. That was costing all of us,
including farmers trying to compete on a global market.

Luckily Chris Corrigin came along and had the testicles and brains
to make some real changes in our ports. I really don't care how
he did it, main thing it worked.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 1 January 2011 8:53:55 AM
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Yabby thanks for "Corrigan" in place of my "Costigan", as the tabloids would say of me if I were a polly, he was somewhat "tired and emotional", I was in fact three sheets. Missed the smiley icon, I will have a look at my settings I didn't know we have icons I will revisit my settings, thanks for the H N Y wishes.
Posted by sonofgloin, Saturday, 1 January 2011 10:44:50 AM
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ALL sorry old mate, think I will look elsewhere for advice.
However I am unafraid for my future it can be no worse than parts of my past but will not get that had.
If I can not pay cash, or save for it I do not buy it, own my home and am debt free.
Would go hungry to give to any one who needed it.
Life should be about helping others not hurting them.
Never went near that tree still doing my bit for the fishing mob, eating king prawn.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 1 January 2011 1:42:03 PM
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[Deleted for flaming.]
Posted by Hmmmm!, Sunday, 2 January 2011 1:35:32 PM
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ho-hummm
things that make you go hmmmm

quote..<<34% of firms increased sales>>66 didnt...hmmm

<<while only half that number experienced lower sales>>
half =50 percent..who had LOWER SALES

34 percent...^higher
50 percent lower*
16 percent no change

hmmm

glass half full?
half empty

hmmmmm

which multinationals
had increased sales

huh?
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 2 January 2011 3:15:37 PM
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From the link provided by the sock-puppet: "More than half of Australian retailers reported trading this Christmas was ahead of or in line with their 2009 figures - but 45 per cent were behind. "

and "Almost 42 per cent were trading above and more than 12 per cent the same as last year, the ARA reported."

So in reality, 42% have increased their sales, about 12% are flat and the rest are doing less well.
Doesn't sound like: "inaccurate rot!" to say this has been a bad year to me...

Thanks for letting me clear that up for you, old chap.
Posted by Antiseptic, Sunday, 2 January 2011 3:32:31 PM
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So over 50% of retailers had NO decrease in business this Christmas. It's NOT the "worst retail sales for 20 years" as claimed, which of course is inaccurate rot as I showed. If one makes a "worst retail sales for 20 years" claim, one needs to be able to actually back it up.

Proves my point. Now that's cleared up, let's move on.
Posted by Hmmmm!, Sunday, 2 January 2011 4:03:18 PM
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If only 45 per cent of retailers were behind in their sales, doesn't that mean that more than half were ahead of, or in line with the 2009 figures, as the previous poster tells us? Sorry Antiseptic, I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 2 January 2011 6:20:53 PM
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I'm sure that quite a few retailers are complaining, but the way
I read the tea leaves, its because the nature of retailing is
changing and the internet is playing a larger and larger role
in all that.

Much of Australian bricks and mortar retail has relied on high
costs, ie rents, wages etc, then very high margins. Just paying
the rent in some of those shopping centre malls, takes a bit of
doing.

People these days are becoming more selective with their shopping.
They won't just pay whatever price, becoming more price concious
is part of the new trend. Thus the rush on Boxing Day etc.

IMHO, we have seen leaps and bounds of improvement in Australian
online retailing. Online marketers are becoming better, with better
websites, more competitive pricing, better overall marketing systems
really, without many of the high costs associated with bricks
and mortar stores.

Today its pretty easy to do an online search for a better price,
so people aren't stuck with paying the price at the nearest
store, they have options and are acting on them.

Yes, some stuff is being brought in from overseas too, that helps
to keep local retailers honest and for consumers its a good thing.

So retailers with high margins and high costs would be complaining,
those adjusting to the new changing market, would be doing ok.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 2 January 2011 7:12:08 PM
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Lexi, I suspect, although I haven't looked for the evidence yet, that this is the first year in a long time that retail has been down at Xmas year-on-year. I'm happy to be corrected.

Yabby, retail provides a large amount of female employment, as well as flexible work for students and some significant career paths for those so motivated. It is a major economic driver and if it is significantly impacted by imports, then the country will have a large problem.

Construction will be slow for the next 2-3 years at least thanks to interest rates and price bubbles, Retail going the same way is not a trivial matter.
Posted by Antiseptic, Sunday, 2 January 2011 7:50:35 PM
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Just a note about retail trading figures. For a few years now the lottery lotto and TAB sales go into that number and given that, the numbers are not representative of consumables sales. The only retail traders that I have heard crowing about better sales this year was the Woolies and West Farmers spokes people. Of course they did better. they buy the opposition up or under cut them till they die away.

Yabby:>> People these days are becoming more selective with their shopping. They won't just pay whatever price, becoming more price concious is part of the new trend.<<

New trend, who are you writing for Yabby? Cosmopolitan. The "new trend" is the people of this nation and their government is broke and living off credit.

Yabby spot on regarding online if we are talking overseas sellers, but local retailers tell me they benefit from their online operations rather than it propping up flagging shop sales , and when a downturn in sales happens such as directly after the October rate rise both sides of the business flag.
Posted by sonofgloin, Sunday, 2 January 2011 8:21:49 PM
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*Yabby, retail provides a large amount of female employment, as well as flexible work for students*

Absolutaly Antiseptic, but postage from overseas is not cheap.
People will buy from overseas, if they are being screwed locally.
I bought an infred thermometer on Ebay some time ago, for around
50 bucks. The same thing locally, was 170 bucks. With that
kind of markup, our retailers need competition.

But I'd say that the new employment legislation being introduced
from Jan 1st, will cost women far more. If you have to pay people
250% to work on public holidays and sundays etc, many businesses will simply
shut their doors. Women in retail will be the losers. Don't blame
imports for that.

*The "new trend" is the people of this nation and their government is broke and living off credit.*

Not everyone, Sonofgloin, but certainly those who have been living
beyond their means. The GFC has made many think a bit, about
ever increased borrowing. The increasing savings rate shows that.

But still only a third of Australians actually have a mortgage.
40% of Australians own shares directly, most grey nomads and people
close to retirement etc, who saved when they were younger.
Increasing interest rates on bank deposits will also help self
funded retirees and others, who were knocked around by the GFC and
low interest. They can spend again.

People in the mining industry are living it up too. Once these
floods go down, even builders in Qld should do well for a couple
of years.

So its not all black and white.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 2 January 2011 9:00:57 PM
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Yabby:>> Once these floods go down, even builders in Qld should do well for a couple of years.<<

Yabby they say every cloud has a silver lining. Luckily NSW Labor has managed to divest the state of investors, our tradies are already in Qld
Posted by sonofgloin, Sunday, 2 January 2011 9:42:51 PM
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Yabby, I think you're wrong about the markup issue. Our customer base for specialist products such as the thing you mentioned or the shocks for my car that I purchsed in the US is so small that a large margin is necessary to cover the cost of inventory. Added to the fact that your small supplier probably bought at the same prie that you're paying O/S since he was only buying one or two and the price he's charging probably isn't unreasonable.

We need small specialist retailers to have an incentive to keep rarely-required but essential parts in stock. Ordering from O/S may be fine for some things (I don't think BMW will go out of business because I bought shocks O/S), but it's a very short-sighted approach for others - I'd not like to have to rely on my weekly groceries being delivered from the US, or even for a part for my truck to come from Japan. Retailers provide that service and we should support them, quite apart from the other benefits I've already mentioned.

And you're right about the PPLS - it's going to be a disaster for women employees in small business, while those in larger firms will wonder why the glass ceiling seems to be getting thicker.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Posted by Antiseptic, Monday, 3 January 2011 5:14:55 AM
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Here's another take on the situation from the Australian a couple of days ago
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/shoppers-attracted-by-virtual-benefits/story-e6frgakx-1225979026187 :

"Did the Boxing Day splurge help? Not a lot.

Profit margins were already reduced before Boxing Day by aggressive bargain pricing, a reality that led Myer chief executive Bernie Brookes to lament: "In all my 30 years in retail, I've never seen a more discount-oriented Christmas.""

and

"Access Economics says online shopping so far accounts for just 3 per cent of total consumer retail spending. But online auction site eBay's research is compelling, showing more than half of all Australians used the internet last year to shop.

Access Economics director Chris Richardson says: "Although we are spending less in shopping malls, we are spending more on utility bills, more on mortgages and more on cars."

I'd reckon that's spot on, especially the bit about mortgages and utility bills. Here in Qld we're still paying for the bungling of the Bligh bunch over water and power and we'll pay a great deal more yet.

Of course, as far as the Govt is concerned, that's fine - GDP will go up regardless and GST will flow just the same, but for the small business sector it's a disaster waiting to be recognised.

No doubt there'll be a "crisis" requiring some Labor crony to be appointed to an expensive "inquiry" in a year or two. I recommend Quentin Bryce - she's already demonstrated her abililty to do nothing at all for a large salary...
Posted by Antiseptic, Monday, 3 January 2011 5:45:42 AM
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This website may be of some interest:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/farm-mine-production-to-drive-economy/story-e6frg8zx-1225970825791
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 3 January 2011 10:52:16 AM
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*Our customer base for specialist products such as the thing you mentioned or the shocks for my car that I purchased in the US is so small that a large margin is necessary to cover the cost of inventory.*

Anti, the infrared thermometer which I bought is a generic tool,
handy in any workshop where measuring bearing temperatures matters.
They are also used by supermarkets etc, to check on ther fridges
and freezers. They probably cost 10-15 bucks to make in China.

The only way to sort all this out is to let the market decide,
not a bunch of regulations. I recently bought some new parts
for some German taps that I'd installed in my house, 25 years ago.
They were really hard to get hold of and in the end, the local
dealer slugged me an arm and a leg for them. What if he'd not had
them available any more, which will happen when he runs out?

I did a net search with google and sure enough those parts were
available from a US dealer who still had an abundance of stock he
was trying to get rid of.

The thing is, the global economy is here to stay as everything becomes more
specialised. It takes no longer to fly that part
to WA from the US, then it does to get here by road from Sydney.

I recently bought a steel order from a local steel supplier. Some
sections seemed great value, some sounded outrageous in price, when
I worked it all back to $ per kg of steel. When I asked them about
it the bloke told me that it just depended on how much competition
there was in the market from Chinese imports. On those sections
where there was competition, they had to be competitive, on those
that weren't, the price was much higher. In other words, they
will screw the customer where they can. For that very reason we
need an open market.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 3 January 2011 11:51:09 AM
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abby:"The only way to sort all this out is to let the market decide,
not a bunch of regulations"

I agree in principle, but the marketwill always be aligned with short-term nbenefits, such as a slightly lower price, while less obviously personal benefits such as having more locals employed, will tend to be forgotten at the time of purchase.

I don't favour much regulation, but I think some money could be usefully spent on a decent "buy local" campaign and I don't see any problem with imposing GST on goods imported via interent ordering.

The link posted by Lexi was quite instructive. It showed that mining, especially, and agriculture to a lesser extent are the only sectors really pulling their economic weight. I don't believe we can sustain that for too long, especially with the dollar at such high levels. Let's hope the market is more sensible in this case than it often is.
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 4 January 2011 7:55:46 AM
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