I read the Weekend Oz magazine story with some shock, do please have a read through this:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/deliver-us-from-evil/story-e6frg8h6-1225967837921

The new pope is setting a new low for religion, and his servant, Cardinal Pell, is doing a good job in trying to take our nation backwards with his world view.

This is more in-line with what Pentacostal's are up to, with their 'healing rooms' where they grow limbs back, banish diseases that doctors struggle with, and remove serpents, and eggs, from people's chests.

Naturally, now The Australian has become a de facto mouthpiece for the Vicar of God's business in Australia, it was no shock that they'd run a story like this.

Love to hear what others think.

If this is where our tax-free dollars go, supporting a pre-Enlightenment worldview, should we be reviewing the situation?

clearly you think demonic possesion is some fable
do you have any proof..its a con..or a lie

or is it just wishfull thinking
or a dumb hunch..[hope]

anyhow...please present your facts

you think teaching kids about harry potter
toothfairy/santa claws/easter bunny....is ok

or the new age-ism stuff..
astral travel...auras...spirit writing

ie just hate religeon..
or all that..generalised..spiritual stuff

anyhow offer your proof*..of no god

or no demons...no hell...no heaven...no afterlife

your soooo clever...give some proof..!
theory...ridicule..isnt proof

you athiests are winning...
trouble being...you dont realise the prize...you win
might just cost you...and your children..more than you thought

is it ok to believe in fairy-tales...but not religeon
i donty recall you critisizing hairy porter..or bewitched
just this obesession with the cathoholics...seems your only constant

Yet another reason why I no longer buy the Oz,
after having been in the practice of doing so
regularly all my adult life. It really is a
worry that so many of those who govern us take
this sort of hocus pocus seriously.

@one under god, the difference is that most adults
know that fairy stories, Harry Potter, Santa Claus
etc are just make-believe. The problem with
this demon garbage is that some adults take it
deadly seriously, apparently including a significant
number of our senior politicians and power brokers.

That is worrisome indeed.

TBC:

Thanks for the link. What a fascinating article! I had no idea that
exorcisms still take place today. I thought they were very hush, hush,
simply because possession was difficult to verify because the phenomenon could result from causes other than evil spirits. I did know that the Catholic Church in the A.D. 200s established the office of "exorcist", one who performs an exorcism and that priests that hold this office required a bishop's permission to perform the ceremony, so it's not something that's entered into lightly. But I had no idea that these ceremonies were on the increase in Australia.
I find that somewhat disturbing to say the least. Are people really that troubled? And if they are - what the heck - if an exorcism will make them feel better - it's better then drugs isn't it? It's all very well to brush things aside and say - "It's all in your mind!"
But if that's the case and you believe that some ceremony will help get rid of the problem - I say go for it! Whatever rocks your boat, so to speak. This reminds me of what the French writer Voltaire said when asked on his deathbed to renounce the devil:

"This is no time to make new enemies!" ;-)

In the beginning Man created God.
Even now we continue to create new ones.
And our creations keep us from being one.
Some day soon, a new God yes another one will be invented.
I can think off a few , say a murderous human bomber returns to life with a report that the 72 virgins do not exist but a special hell is in place for his like.
Let our next invented God be one that demands all humanity is one, this time with no room for we are better than them.
We can begin by exorcising evil from every church yes every one of them,not inferring they are all evil but too many are.

OUG, what a classic response, a real cartoon Christian one if you don't mind me saying so.

As Talisman says, if you equate Pell's demons with Harry Potter, Peter Pan, and Winnie the Pooh, then I have to ask, have you lost-the-plot just a little?

Don't you know the origins of Easter, bunnies, eggs and so on? Or Christmas for that matter?

No doubt, once runner gets on here, he too will be telling us all these celebrations of life came from the birth of Jesus, which oddly enough happened on a day already celebrated for millennia by others, as with his death.

How odd, or as my grannie used to say, borrowed from a concert hall line, 'how odd, of God, to choose, the Jews'.

Perhaps the very Vatican Oz wrote the story to raise ridicule OUG?

Who knows, but I posted the story because I am honestly staggered that anyone outside a third-world devil-and-serpent riddled nation, where most xtians are coming from these days, would seriously cater for this sort of excessive Mumbo.

And I am not alone, OUG.

Try this Catholic web page for a start:
http://www.catholica.com.au/forum/index.php?mode=printthread&thread=61756

Lexi, you have to know that Pentacostals, Baptists and other sundry religionists-of-ridicule, AOG frinstance, very much believe in this Mumbo, so the Vicar of God is not alone in his madness.

Worse, there are up to 2700 of these fruitcakes walking around schools in Australia, posing as 'school chaplains' and on the payroll of the ATO, whilst also gold-digging into P&C funds and directly into the pockets of students and parents in their fund raising efforts.

This is seriously sad, dangerous, and unwarranted.

But if Harry Potter is real, could we use him to fight the Vicar of God back into the Darkness, where he belongs?

TBC:

I'm not sure how to answer you. My ethos has always been live and let live. To each his own. I would never dream of questioning someone's beliefs unless they caused harm to others. As for school chaplains - I thought that school chaplains were not compulsory. That it was up to each school to decide whether or not they wanted them. I thought it was a matter of choice. Not all schools have them, certainly not in Victoria.

you need only to watch stuff like hairy porter[or cartoons and kids programing..to see a regular doese of so called black art /magic..demons..warloks..magitiions..

or try watchinmg the music vidio's

in short...there is a lot of imagry...that sets up feeble minded fools..into gaining beliefs...in these injurouse negative beliefs

simply believing...in them...sets up the weak minded..to get abused

its sad you dont knock...them
yet consistantly knock religeon

any who claim to have faith in jesus
must recognise his certainty...in the possesion of human will...by those loosly called demons..

i quoted extensivly..in the spirits topic..from the pdf thirty years ammoung the dead..that recognises..the ability to remove..these haunting/lost spirits...by scientific process..[not the tv mumbo jumbo..that passes for exorsizim]

i asked you for evidence..and you provided none

you coukld visit any nuthouse...and see many
[any that is self injuring..is usually haunted]
take this further...and any self infliction of hurt ..or putting ione self into danger..is like waise a sure sign

i include many forms of over intoxication..or excessive drug taking
as well as a cetrtain class of drugs..like still-nox...where people do things they cant recall..

i must repeat...there are sure signs
for those who know the symptomolgy..but sadly the church likely regards listening to rock music..as a sign...

when the true sign is more obvious..[self injury...blanked out memory..destructive behavious..uncontroled/over use of drugs/booze...excessive retort to viloence/abuse]

dont poo-poo that you dont comprehend
by all means bring religion to account...for things it does do bad

but dont go jumping to conclusions/delusions..
about things..beyond your tiny minds comprehentions

its your athistic fiends..who have adgendas
and where there is no belief..in good..[god]

but belief in demons..magic...spells..and out of body experiences..

there CAN BE potential danger

either believe in NONE of it
or know..VILE has no power OVER..good

you do as you chose

but for gods sake..
stop kids...from drinking the demonic coolaid..TOO

GET RID OF ALL...THE MUMBO/JUMBO
not just the bit that peeeevs you off..

that you wish to kill-off...religiously
[in ignorance of the other...you seem to have no problem about]

The word voluntary has to be put into quotes, like so, "voluntary".

There is no such deal, I'm afraid.

These religiopests are thrust into schools without consultation, take over roles they should not do, impose themselves into classrooms and the playground, and invite their chums in to mingle with students at will.

They have no understanding of policy, which is not policed anyway, and certainly have no intention to 'live and let live'.

What choice is there when they are encouraged to say prayers on assembly?

And you have to withdraw your child from that social exercise.

What choice when they run sport?

What choice when they infiltrate school camps you send your child to?

No Lexi, they are 'on a mission' to evangelise, which they are allowed to do, and proselytise, which they are not.

They counsel students, which is prohibited, and refer them to 'others' which is also prohibited.

Do read the NT Ombudsman's report of how two school chaplains housed a convicted sex offender in close proximity to schools, and broke just about every rule in the book.

There is now to be an investigation into the scheme across Australia.

It is as rotten as Garrets insulation scam, or Gillard's BER. As dodgy as the Whiteboard Affair, as corrupt as Howard's crew and their pork barrelling of electorates.

It is a Dead Parrot of a scheme.

My Dear OUG

"in short...there is a lot of imagry...that sets up feeble minded fools..into gaining beliefs...in these injurouse negative beliefs

"simply believing...in them...sets up the weak minded..to get abused

"its sad you dont knock...them yet consistantly knock religeon".

Yes, the feeble minded do fall for imaginary 'things' OUG.

Yes, people do believe in things, and call it faith when there is nothing to be seen.

That's what 'religion' does.

That's what you do.

I ignored your calls for proof, regarding them as too foolish to bother with. Sorry.

I know what you say about Easter and Christmas TBC both are pagan in reality.
OUG understands too he has reminded us Christmas is not Christs birth day.
I am not anti Christian, but think No God exists.
I have no problem in saying most who follow a God are harmless but so many are not.
In the darkness of night some reason for thunder and lightning helped start the long history of men inventing Gods.
Even now,we see Gods being crafted, invented to suit modern humans, some times exclusive it seems to high income folk.
Very few, who bother to look at medicine men, witch doctors Egyptian Temple Controllers would have any trouble saying it was based on control fear and greed.
Look at the Mayan Gods, and know, we are too willing to discard them all as fabrications.
But some, too many, think their God exists only for some humans not all, even think in some cases it is their job to kill other Gods people.
We would be better inventing one God or having none.

TBC, I am totally with you on this one!
I read the unbelievable exorcism 'story' in the magazine on Sunday, and thought about bringing it up here on OLO.
However, I knew we would get the usual long sermons from the usual posters here, and that there is not a damn thing we can say that would make any difference to what people believe!

I think that, in their ignorance, people will believe what they want to believe. In the years when the Bible was written, and for many centuries before and after the good book, there was no understanding of mental illnesses at all.
Many people, including Jesus apparently, made up 'demon' stories to try to explain that which they couldn't understand.

Several mental health illnesses have been mistakenly believed to have been caused by 'demonic possession'in the past. Back in the 'good old days' when everyone listened to the priests and other holy men, the people went to these men to ask for prayers for their mentally ill loved ones to be 'cured'. When the prayers apparently didn't work, the holy men wisely blamed someone else- the dreaded demons!

I have witnessed many physical abnormalities such as seizures, that have wrongly been thought to be caused by demonic possession for many years. Science and medical experts have long proven them wrong, allowing for effective medicines to help these people.

If someone is mentally ill, having trouble coping or finding answers AND is brought up in a very religious household, then naturally they will be desperate enough to try anything to 'cure' their torment.

How many of these so-called exorcisms fail for these people?
I bet we never hear about them.
Some 'demons' can be very stubborn I guess :

Agree TBC. Suzeonline your thoughts are similar to mine. Many of the mentally ill I came into contact with at work often believed that God ordered them to do certain things, or that God would strike us all down, and that the devil was trying to control their brain.

I am all for leaving people to their own beliefs no matter how strange but the sad fact is much of this nonsense affects those who are least able to distinguish between fantasy and reality - the mentally ill. Perhaps if nothing else the 'exorcism' could be seen to have some sort of reassuring 'placebo' effect but personally I think it only serves to feed the mania than to heal or lessen the impact of the condition.

Didn't the Pope expose the devil as a metaphor thus making any form of exorcism defunct?

Suzieonline and Pelican

I have an inlaw who was quite bonkers many years ago, in the USA.

She fell in with what I would describe as a 'bad crowd' but OUG might think were 'good folk'.

Pentecostal fruitcakes, complete with 'tongues' and the laying on of hands. Quite mad.

Sure enough, in her somewhat enfeebled state, the inlaw fell prey to this crew, and her father had to go and pick her up.

Years of angst followed, and many dotty episodes.

She is now known to be bi-polar and has stabilised, fortunately abandoning the extremes of religio-madness for 'mere' Catholicism.

This article reminds us all, apart from people like OUG, that the Vicar of God is no harmless old man with the best of intentions, at all. He is as much a beast as auld Nick.

In fact, there is less than a Gillette-width between the Vicar of God, and Catch The Fire's 'casting out' and resurrection antics, as far as I can see.

Dr Bob Montgomery (in the article) has it in one as far as I am concerned, he "...says he is not surprised that more people are approaching the church to seek exorcisms. 'This is a part of the anti-science, pro-superstition shift in our culture, where people are clinging to all sorts of mythical things"'.

Indeed, they are, aided and abetted by our weak and ignorant pretend religious political leaders, such as Gillard siding with Jim Wallace and the ACL (as did Howard and Rudd) on just about every piece of legislation for the last 10 years.

Now, if ever an exorcism was needed, it's within all Australian political parties!

Sheesh I'm running behind here. I finally just got around to reading
the last of the weekend papers, including this article.

Interesting that Bishop Porteous includes yoga in the non christian
alternatives that could invite "demonic trouble"

Not much surprises me about the Catholic Church. Anyone who has
read about the kinky habits of Opus Dei members, would know what
I mean.

What does amaze me is that this organisation can claim with a
straight face, that they should be our guide to morality.

From within, you are exorcising your demons given your past history and experiences TBC. It is therapeutic and I hope raising the awareness of these media issues brings peace and closure for you [a genuine wish].

We all have had them, including myself. So! One cannot deny you coming to terms with your demon[s] [ie the Catholic Church hierachy, staff, policies and practices].

Yes, the Catholic Church would have had a long way to go in addressing and ensuring that all children will be protected in the future and acknowledging the fact that childrens and adults lives are ruined as a direct result of crime and cover-ups. Most sadly it wont happen, as the Catholic Church as Australians have known it, will be finished. I saw this coming when the Nuns and Priests were dying out.

Fighting for unity of Australians to oppose and bring down the Pope, the Cardinal and Priests with their private or hushed up practices is a waste of time and not the solution at this late stage.

No one in the generations of catholics on my fathers side has ever witnessed or raised any type of exorcism subject.

Its not a practice widely carried out within Australia TBC.

You see TBC, if you were a Christian and/or believed in God, [who knows you may be], some solace and relief would be available to you [in having faith and knowing] that every person is accountable to God at the end of their day here, for every sin and deed [ranging from murder, molestation, assaults to grief] deliberately caused to their victims young and old.

Something I was taught [not through religion]by many different intelligent wise people from all walks of life through my life journey.

How some of you people get through life's obstacles as non-believers in God mystifies me, although, this may explain the bitterness, continual targetting, same rantings and revengeful comments on the same subjects raised by you for most of this year.

Suze, Bi-Polar patients often exhibit the demon fantasy in which Doctors and nursing staff always know, to be one of the major symptoms of the disease.

Practicing as a Nurse with Bi-Polar patients, you would know this first hand.

What year or era are you referring to? Back in the 70's after research was done into Manic Depression [now Bi-Polar], all of the common symptoms and treatment of those symptoms excluded shock treatment and exorcism.

so your zealotry..is rooted in compulsive obessivness

which is much like addiction...

those [you]..with these addictive personality types...are at risk to any addiction..be it booze drugs or even love[addiction]...or hate or blame addiction

anything but taking personal accountability

its funny and sad you see the bipolarity of a sister
yet fail to see the same degree of obsssesive two mindedness..in your own anti-religious zealitry

but such is the nature of your anti religious phycosis

[in other words it is simply stupid to try to clarify your phycosis]

your addicted...[obbesessed by anti-religious hate]...as much obsessed..as one desiring to take drugs...or needing their next love fix

you can never realise the same symptomology
expressed by your sister...applies its burden upon you

your obesession..has a genetical burden

sadly this is one of those cases...that passes accross generations[untill your..religio-obesessive genes are bred out]..its one of those cases..where prayer cant help

anyhow...blue pot
i will leave you in your blue funk
failing to see how your as bad as the blue cross

take your meds
stop reading articles that will set off your phycosis

i can but feel sympathy...but must allow you
the right to reap your harvest...your genetical one eyed obesession reaps..

the triggers..will only become more in quantity and number
and i can but ask god to forgive those..who know not what they do..or cant see why they keep on doing it..

i cant reply further
without enabling..your compulsive obesesion

thus wish you well..in ignoring your igno-rants

We are unique I think you know I have great respect for you.
And believe it or not for much of the rules of Christianity,rules to live by.
You can find much good in any creeds rules.
But even you,like my self in my days of belief, show a well known bias.
It is that the Catholic Church is the Antichrist.
Alive and active for century's this idea is both based on concerns about worshiping a Pope and the mother of God.
Pedophilia within the Church adds to the legend.
However it too has its roots in paganism.
Mayans killed in the name of God,long before that even we all did.
Fear drove it as it does today.
WAU it is no extra load, carrying the belief we are accountable for our each and every action our selves,that we should never harm an other unless no way exists to avoid it.
God, a great walking stick on a long trip, but what a great world it will be when we invent one that fits todays needs.
One humanity one fate one direction.
Keep our crutch for those who need it but let it be blind to color and race.

EXORCISM is not 'mumbo' or 'jumbo'....it is a Biblical and Spiritual reality.

It is not, however "a rite"

When Jesus was confronted with demonically possessed people, the Demons were separate from the personality of the individual. They spoke through the person.

Mark 1:24
“What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”

25 “Be quiet!” said Jesus sternly. “Come out of him!” 26 The impure spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek.

PUBLIC REACTION:

27 The people were all so amazed that they asked each other, “What is this? A new teaching—and with authority! He even gives orders to impure spirits and they obey him.”

Attempting to make this a 'rite' is plain unbiblical. It was a power encounter between Christ and the demon.

I anticipate encountering just such darkness at the Mind Body Spirit festivals and have seen the beginnings.

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/center_index.php?id=50

There you go, Boaz. I guess they did not understand epilepsy in
biblical times.

epilipsy...does not qualify as possesion...yabby

possesion involves more violent...
more..injurouse activity
and sure signs

Dumbness..&..deafness:..Mk..9:17,25;..Lk 11:14 Mt..12:22

Mk 5:1-20..Living in cemetery..& mountains,..*naked,
able to break shackles and chains,
constantly crying out..and cutting self..with stones.

Mt 17:14-18;..Mk 9:17-18..a lunatic*,..very ill,
often..falls into fire..& water,..
a spirit seized,..*suddenly screams,[obsenities/curses]....

THEN..throws into convulsions,..foaming mouth,..grinds teeth,..mauls him,..stiffens out...

Jesus was..accused..of having a demon because:

1. of perceived paranoia...that others were going to kill him: Jn 7:20

2. of making perceived..irrational statements:..Jn 8:48-52;..10:19-20

3. "He has lost his senses"..his family charged: Mk 3:21
(Note:..they may not have blamed it on a demon)

4. he cast out other demons:
(probably a vicious rumor created out of jealously): Mt 12:22-25

E. John for not eating or drinking: Lk 7:33

F. Apparent supernatural ability to predict the future through fortune-telling: Acts 16:18

G. Able to perform false signs:..Rev 16:14

H. Preaching of false doctrine & different gospel"
Gal 1:8; 1 Ti 4:1-2; 2 Thess 2:8-12

i would add an irratrional fear of religeons
or faulse belief in a hudgmental god

[and yes those accusing others..of being demon possessed
playing with snakes..and talking in tongues...those obsessed with what others do]..those seeking to control others..not hurting anyone

Phases of Demonic Possession

Demons do not walk to up to a person..and say, "Hey! Do you want to be fully and completely demon possessed?"

No, they find a weakness..or a door through traditional family behavior..(iniquities) or through the reckless behavior of the individual..(personal sin).

The person's active free will..[do do only good]..must be breached.

They usually seduce a person..with something simple and almost innocent...unless it is generational sin.

It is kind of like the camel
with his nose in the tent.

It starts out with just a nose...Then, the next thing you know, the whole camel is in the middle of the tent...All the camel needs is a gate.

Demons like to solicit your active free-willing participation.
It is more of a kill for them...It is sport to them!

vile so l;oves doing its vile
[especially on the faulse chtistians]
thats why...they should never*..cast stones
ALLWAYS..LOVE GOD..[good]...and love neighbour

Let's say that you profess..to be a 'born again' Christian.
You might even be in the ministry..as a pastor or an assistant pastor.

You are really committed to serving the Lord and your church.
The love of God is all you think about. You attend church every meeting...You read the Bible and pray daily and you even spend special time with the Lord...

just get them..THINKING on sin
and evil gets in..

Let's say,..just for argument's sake,..that you are counseling women for the church...Then all of a sudden there is this certain girl you are counseling,..a new believer,..*that seems to understand you...*more than your wife.

That's it!
Right there!..The Camel'..nose..in the tent!

You were supposed to be counseling her..but she ended up comforting you...What happened?..How could this be?

the gate to the carnal self..is five-fold:..sight,
smell,..sound,..taste,..and touch...

A demon can come in..through any of the five gates
by tempting the guard...[good]..at the door...If the guard allows the demon in..then the demon has authority..to move about freely.

[its only claiming..'his own'
a faulse deciever...temptation]

You gave him..this authority
by giving up your free will..to stand and rebuke the temptation.
[took the tare...for wheat]..[judged..others...and was wrong..in even judging]

An interesting insight.

For me, the key takeaway from the article cited in the OP was this:

"...a growing number of people are approaching the church to seek help in expelling what they believe are demonic spirits."

It's the "...what they believe..." that intrigues me. Because demonic spirits do not exist anywhere except in the mind, what is being described can only be a form of mental illness.

This self-diagnosis is often helped along by society's attitude towards mental health in general. Depression is poorly understood by the populace at large, and generally gets a reaction along the lines of "snap out of it".

No surprise, then, to find that at the same time as we are experiencing a rise in the numbers of clinically depressed, a percentage of them prefer to attribute their illness to "what they believe are demonic spirits".

If it helps them come to terms with it, then that is probably not a bad thing. But I would imagine that the waiting list for a competent exorcist is pretty long, and not available under Medicare, so in the long run they'd be better off recognizing mental illness for what it is, and seek proper help.

Boaz, this attitude doesn't help, you know.

>>Attempting to make this a 'rite' is plain unbiblical. It was a power encounter between Christ and the demon.<<

You make it sound like a battle between King Kong and Godzilla. How is that supposed to help the poor creature who, having decided that he'd rather classify a mental affliction as demonic possession, comes to the church for help?

I guess you'd simply say "get over it", would you not.

In a nice, Christian way, of course.

what all the 'clever' secularist ignore here is that many of these distressed people have already had loads of drugs prescribed to them by mental health 'experts' and are in worse condition than before they started attending. A number of them top themselves even after seeing the 'best' mental health experts. Whilst there are many religous charlatans don't forget the drug companies are cashing in on these people on a much larger scale. Another inconvenient truth.

Runner

So, "the drug companies are cashing in on these people on a much larger scale" given you say that, presumably this is your seal of approval for Mumbo to be trotted out.

Yes, there are problems with drug companies, patent laws, health systems, and in Australia a total disregard for mental health issues, but that should not be use as an excuse for promoting demons as the source of problems.

I accept Dr. Bob Montgomery's comment on the placebo effect helping large numbers of people, with modern medicine, with 'alternative' medicine and with Mumbo too, but that is no reason to excuse the exploitation of fearful people, I would have thought.

As for this vacuous comment, "all the 'clever' secularist", do please find out what 'secular' means.

OUG, you are totally incomprehensible in your rants, even AGIR manages to convey something of a message within his ranting.

i cant reply further
without enabling..your compulsive obesesion

so will leave you hanging..on your own blue cross

i wish you well..in ignoring your igno-rants
lest you go further into phycosis

keep taking ya meds bloke
those nasty jesuits...wont get ya..then

Try using a spell-checker OUG, that might be your first step in Posting Rehab' and Understanding 101.

You'd obviously know what it's like OUG, once you suffer a "compulsive obesesion" there's no end to anything, and only an exorcism can save you from the demons.

Good luck in your shelter-from-life.

I imagine you'll be popping up for air every now and then though so I look forward to your next post.

Interesting indeed. Well I'm an atheist, and yet I DO believe in
what ever you call it...DEMONIC POSSESSION !

In my vocational life I've seen some things - crimes, atrocities, abominations, extreme cruelty, whatever perpetrated by so called human beings.

That could only happen if the individual concerned was possessed by something very very evil indeed. If one doesn't believe in any God, can evil actually exist ? Or, does one follow the other ? Black is to white, as wet is to dry ? I dunno, it's all far too deep for me.

However, I DO KNOW ABSOLUTELY, there is something very very bad/evil/wicked/vile etc etc, lurking deep within the human heart and/or mind, of some ?

Yet, I'm an atheist. Beats me ?

TBC

'So, "the drug companies are cashing in on these people on a much larger scale" given you say that, presumably this is your seal of approval for Mumbo to be trotted out.'

No it does not have my seal of approval or disapproval because I don't know enough about it. What I do know is that evil spirits exist and the chief evil spirit blinds unbelievers from seeing the gospel. I also know that for you take the position of an expert on exorcism is laughable. You don;t appear to know good from evil so I doubt whether you know how to be rid of something you know little about.

We are Unique <"What year or era are you referring to? Back in the 70's after research was done into Manic Depression [now Bi-Polar], all of the common symptoms and treatment of those symptoms excluded shock treatment and exorcism"

I am working as a nurse with mentally ill patients currently actually, as opposed to those who still believe in 2000 year old 'stories' from the Bible! What era are you referring to We Are Unique, if you believe in exorcism fairytales?

In actual fact, I never suggested that current medical practitioners used exorcism to treat their patients, but they certainly do continue to use shock treatment for Bi-Polar patients quite effectively.

What I was trying to say is that often, mentally ill people will search for 'answers' as to why they feel as they do- a terrible torment in their minds that is very difficult for anyone to cure or manage.
Many will mistakenly believe they are 'possessed by demons'.
The fact remains that if the bulk of these people stayed on their medically prescribed medication, they would not suffer from these delusions at all.

Many mentally ill people do not like the side effects of these psychotic drugs, and go off their medications. Most of the time however, they are far more ill than if they had continued their medications.

Yes, there are some mentally ill people that have had no suitable treatment to help them, just like we can't cure many physical problems yet- like some cancers.
That doesn't mean we should go back in time and try archaic exorcisms on these poor people. Again I ask, do we hear of all these so-called exorcisms that didn't 'work'?

Oh dear runner, "What I do know is that evil spirits exist", no doubt with the same 'proof' as that you ascribe to your gods?

Thinking they exist, is not the same as knowing they exist, old chap.

Good from evil eh?

Well, when it was good for xtians to burn women because they were witches (or were thought to be witches more like), I suspect the notion of evil was different to today, when that is frowned upon, unless you are a xtian in Africa, where it still goes on.

When you have good xtians in the USA calling for Mr Wiki to be assasinated though, is that all that way from burning witches to please the gods?

I doubt it.

Then again, is our economic system evil? Or is it good?

Does the string of political lies we endure count as 'good' or 'evil' if it is done, as we are told it is, 'in the national interest'?

A very tricky question runner.

Did someone give it to you, or did you think of it yourself?

I have never believed in Exorcism and am against the rubbish, particularly in relation to patients in hospitals and nursing homes.

I asked you a general question Suze regarding the following line you posted the other day;

"I have witnessed many physical abnormalities such as seizures, that have wrongly been thought to be caused by demonic possession for many years".

Being tired, I thought you were referring to medical staff misdiagnosing seizures or bi-polar symptoms.

Be careful jumping on the defensive and accusing people of what they have never believed in Suze.

Suze

By the way Shock treatment should be banned [with the damage it has caused patients over past years] in favour of the effective Bi-polar medication.

Thanks for updating me on this issue and will discuss it with a nursing administrator girlfriend of mine when catching up next.

All the best and enjoy the exorcism thread.

TBC

'Well, when it was good for xtians to burn women because they were witches (or were thought to be witches more like), I suspect the notion of evil was different to today, when that is frowned upon, unless you are a xtian in Africa, where it still goes on.

When you have good xtians in the USA calling for Mr Wiki to be assasinated though, is that all that way from burning witches to please the gods?'

Good to see that you don't really believe in moral relativism. The number of unborn babies slaughtered makes those burned by the deceived 'Christians' in Africa a much smaller issue.

runner, if you go to the atheist book string I posted a figure about the Catholic women in the USA, who have more abortions than any other group.

But they probably think of it as an exorcism not an abortion, since it must have been a demon that 'took' them.

God to see you justify your mobs actions by the actions of others.

That's a sure way to find 'the truth', eh?

I haven't read all the posts, so forgive me if I repeat someone else's observations.
I read that article and found it to be very easy to understand, and not at all sensational. I am surprised that some posters are so happy to discount the existence of something from which many people have admitted to have suffered.
Evil spirits exist as do good spirits. It is fortunate that God has provided us all with a guardian Angel, to protect us from evil; it is also fortunate, as was stressed by the article in question, that we cannot be overwhelmed by an evil spirit, unless we give them permission to enter into our spirit/psyche.
It is likely that earlier generations attributed many mental illnesses to demonic possession. As was clearly stated in the article in the Australian, this not the current position held by exorcists or medical practitioners. It appears that most candidates for exorcism volunteer for this treatment after medical treatment has been inadequate.

This is quite fascinating stuff, isn't it?

I once lived in a place where the local people
believed that epileptic fits were caused by
malevolent spirits that could 'jump' from one
person to another. They also believed that witches
lived amongst them, as did ghosts.

Of course, these were good Methodists who would
never countenance anything so pagan as an actual
rite of exorcism.

Funny, eh?

To get from the fantasies to the reality about exorcism, let me relate a real instance that occurred. In Melbourne, in the latter part of the 1970's, there was a case where a woman was beaten to death by frenzied Jesus Freaks who were convinced that she was 'possessed' (whatever that means). Their attempts at 'exorcism' (whatever mumbo that is)resulted in the death of a person at the hands of others.This would normally be regarded as a crime. I remember following this case, it was published in the now defunct, "Nation Review".

Surprise, surprise, the religious lobby got this case squashed, there was no punishment for the evildoers that beat another human to death. there was no uproar from any 'Right to Life'groups. but the fact is that an innnocent person was horribly beaten to death by people that she trusted, because they were professing ( and in this case, rabid) Christians.

Beware, religion can be a health hazard!

Epsilon

Let me predict a response to your post Epsilon, from one of the chosen people on this thread.

'They were clearly not real xtians, and were themselves filled with demons'.

Probably not, they were probably like Talisman's Methodists, probably Baptists in fact.

I seem to recall something sounding very similar happening far more recently, in NSW or Qld.

Then there were the 'alternative medicine' parents who starved their child to death as a cure in NSW.

Homeopathic sized food portions just do not cut it when you're hungry, do they?

Demons and magic potions, all part of the same curse.

This thread has me a little bit stumped.
It is known I do not believe in God.
Also that I once clutched that straw.
I am a firm believer we all would be better if man took reality and responsibility for his/her own actions.
And that every religion is based on control fear and rewards for total blind loyalty.
We can if we wish find lunatic fringe groups,they exist,may even use them as evidence but we are talking now about a few.
Mumbo jumbo is not just related to the fringes it is practiced in every creed.
Right wing Christianity has evolved ,so very different than the teachings of their God it seems unrelated,, yet mumbo jumbo open and on display is ignored by far too many.

Belly,
You might be surprised to learn that I agree with your view. Christians are free from the belief in demons as beings. However persons from former pagan cultures are deeply influeced in spirit beings inflicting diseases and mental diseases and death hense the witch doctor has the power to exorcise. Today many of these pagan cultures have moved into our Western society so the practise of exorcising for those people is a believeable practice.

We educated Westerners recognise no such beings exist, we can control bacteria, understand mental disorders etc.

Philo:

"We educated Westerners recognise no such beings exist, we can control bacteria, understand mental disorders etc."

Yet you claim to believe in 'intelligent' design - interesting conflict of belief versus raionalism you have going there Philo.

Johnny Rotten,
Because design is consitent we can know by intelligence. Design reflects logic we can observe. For sactter brains no design exists just random events.

Philo

"Christians are free from the belief in demons as beings", so where does that leave the Vicar of God and the billion Micks in the world?

And the fruitcakes in the Baptists/fundie/AOG corners?

'Christians' is too loose a phrase.

Some may not, but hundreds of millions do.

Considering all the Christian celebrations were stolen from Pagans, I wouldn't be quite so smug about the purity of anyone professing to be 'a Christian', and the Bible is built on non-Christian lives, practices and peoples as I understand it.

Even Jesus wasn't a Christian.

The Blue Cross,
So now you are saying the founder of the Christian faith did not follow his own teachings? Christ was exorcising people of pagan influences because they believed in demons. That was also a practise engaged in by monotheistic Jews at the time, to eradicate the pagan influences that controlled their thinking and lives. The scripture states after exorcism He left them in their right mind. The people formerly believed demons controlled their behaviour - afterwards they controlled their behaviour.

No Philo, you said "Christians are free from the belief in demons as beings".

That is clearly not correct, millions do.

You laid it at the feet of Pagans and exempted Christians from it.

I have no doubt Pagans are full of demon thinking, but so are Christians.

Why else would 'yer man' bother to cast them out?

And what about this, "We educated Westerners recognise no such beings exist", also not true, unless you are admitting that the hordes of Christians are in fact 'not educated', or at least, not well enough to tell what Mumbo is.

As I read history, Jesus did not 'found' Christianity at all, others did that after he was gone, using him as a hook.

Compared to L. Ron Hubbub, of course, who did 'found' his magnificent religion while still alive and raking it in.

"The people formerly believed demons controlled their behaviour - afterwards they controlled their behaviour", so what is that Vatican soldier doing today, running around training his flatfoots to keep this Mumbo going here in Australia?

Expect the Vicar of God to re-approve witch burning as part of his joyous Xmas message.

I can see Pell lighting the blue touch paper and standing back. Maybe he'll go for Gillard first?

philo ...you must let ol blue bear his own cross
clearly gardinal pell...has raped his mind..[or so he believes]

you cant expect blood from a stone
nor rweason with one

this type has inner demons that make lists
ol mr ron hubbard got onto his bad list at one time

and so too the pope...he calls by the honourum of the vicar

philo..you cant use reason ..with minds as sick as mr blue
look only as far..as his insanity of his last lines

QUOTE
Expect the Vicar of God
to re-approve witch burning*

I can see Pell lighting the blue touch paper
and standing back...Maybe he'll go for Gillard first?

END QUOTE

is it not obvious this person needs medication/phychiatrysts..
and maybe asio/..lest he actually try to fullfill..his DELuSIONS

this poor fella has had enough pain
LETS SIMPLY PRAY FROM HIM

its the least we can do
its up to him..to exise his own demons

feel sorry..for the poor rube
be thankfull/we dont need bear his cross

its as the quaran says..
those god wishes to destroy
he first sends insane

dont forget to take ya meds..blue-boy
watch out here come...the seventh day mob

better take ya meds bloke
or the cristians might get ya

christ-mass must be hell..for the poor fellow

Oh dear, I see OUG has finally cracked and fallen apart.

What a shame, such a promising character with clear well expressed views, and a font of wisdom to boot.

By all means, say prayers if you feel you need to.

I think Bob Montgomery approves of the placebo effect this sort of Mumbo can bring to those who engage in it.

But that is also verging on the demon track, when one believes that 'someone' will hear them, and a third party will benefit as a result.

I do understand that prayer, like meditation, can soothe the person engaged in the prayer, as in 'mindfulness' training.

Perhaps, OUG, you could pray for yourself, in this manner?

I look forward to hearing reports of your improvement.

Philo is very much a Christian, but one of the better ones.
Takes the stick to me some times but is no believer in demons.
While others may believe the Catholic Church has used them as a fear tactic for century's.
No AGiR? we however have gathered a group that gives evidence we would be better without a God.

Interestingly none of the god squad have been able to show that in
biblical times, they had any understanding at all, of epilepsy and
other neurological diseases.

People with "visions", were regarded as "prophets". People with
other signs of weird behaviour, were classified as "possessed by
demons"

Fair enough, that is all that they understood about brain function.

It was in fact the Egyptians, who thought that the heart was the centre
of mental activity and it was where the soul resided. The
brain was considered to be a mere cooling system.

The religious still today, talk about what happens in their "heart".

Err, lets get real, the heart is a pump, nothing else. If we do
a heart transplant, people don't change personality. We can insert
a mechanical heart, the patient keeps living.

Which just goes to show that the bible, Koran and all the rest, were
nothing more then epistles, written by everyday people of the time.

No evidence of supernatural input anywhere.

Yabby writes

'No evidence of supernatural input anywhere.'

Yet again showing ignorance. The prophecies written hundreds of years before Jesus Christ coming top earth being totally accurate.

Also the description of man's heart being full of deceit and deception is clearly outlined by posts from TBC, AJ and others. The corrupt deceitful nature is their for all to see as opposed to that of Christ with whom no one can lay a glove on.

it is fully comprehenable..that those unfamilour with proper spiritual relitivism...get confounded by names/lables

demons dont haunt humans
dont possess..them..not haunt their houses
demons..hate humans/spirit...really detest us all
demons are those who do the so called punishment...*in hell

bad former humans..[dis-incarnated spirits]..do haunt humans
but these tend..to haunt those of like mind/..like love of vile

thus greedy bankers...are haunted...by those spirits needing their gold/money...greed-fetish

drunks are haunted..by those dead...needing their drink
ditto..drug or sex addicts...haunt those with like obsessions

you will have heard of a drink..[leg opener]
this is where a sussptable type...is able to be haunted..by one[a spirit]..addicted to sex

in every case...we must first have the vile thought..that allows piossesion to occure...and while many spirits..act demonic..[ie really hate certain..or all type of huh-mans..with a passion..these are still not those properly called demons

the cccc-rap of satan made me do it..is an absurdity
that we love in our heart...is reflected in our deeds
[by their deeds are they revealed]

jinn are the same as demons..confined to the dark hellls
they also dont haunt humans..ONLY former living..[dead]..spiritsd..can do this

anmd its not complicated..once we get vile in our minds
they simply twine..[surround]..us so no light gets in..and presto you have a haunting...[possesion]..these often disappear naturally...as they will drink as much as we can imbibe..then go the next one

sadly..they often get imprisoned..thats when exorsism..is required
[drugs have a placebo affect..in that it feels uncomfortable..for the haunting spirit..but by then they are imprisoned...and we get bi-polar..and many other non curable..symptoms

remember..however much docters can MANAGE..symptoms*
THEY CANT CURE...thats a big clue...[many drugs only make things worse]

the best..'cure'..
is dont think it..first
[first i say..think no evil]

next is..do no evil..see no evil
dont play with danger

Just a wee side note:

I gather the ads here on OLO display after looking at key words in posts. A thread in articles about Muslim women and how we want them to dress has a Muslim advert popping up all the time. Over in the boat people thread there is a link to a refugee website, Belly and I mentioned sex and condoms (nah not telling where) and an advert in the middle is advertising a singles site.

Here where there is talk of religion... what do we have… Mastercard and American express adverts! Hahaha.

*drunks are haunted..by those dead...needing their drink
*

There we go UOG. The fact that you are addicted to nicotine
is not due to nicotine being so highly addictive, but just
all those evil demons!

Sheesh, with those kinds of biblical explanations available,
who needs science?

its funny you should mention this jewel[re adverts]
mine reads learn.. hebrew online

another advert that follows me arround at olo..is a foot of some hippy chick..that has just had a pedicure..[but hasnt cut her horrably long nails]..unloved

i know its all to some plan
but im not buying

oh the other adverts haunting me at olo
is the top box google adverts

god is trinity
[no he isnt]

the devil..[is he god of this world]
no he isnt

and one to topic..
exorsism and spirit possesion

its funny we all got a prophile

[im also haunted by dating sites adverts here]
and im not doing that...

certainly not off an advert..from my workplace[olo]

there is a rule..you dont eat..where you deficate

[ok on that topic]/lets go some clever response
to yabby...[who clearly must love a drink]

[haunted by a drink demon]
cause the only one he relpied..was the drink quote

[and yes im haunted..by a smoker]..happy now?
i told you..im channeling this stuff

i dont like drunks...one in four of us..are susseptable..to haunting
we only need...the right temptations..thought/impulse
[what you think..impulse bying is about...lol]

cant you see the ghosts haunting mac-donalds..just hoping we get a wiff...and desire to munch on some transfats..

[why ya think so many are obese for...]
...glutonous spirits..needing their transfats..fix
or so many too lzey..or too dumb[ignorant]..or biased/hurtfull

[in the next life there is no meat...
[cause there is no murdering animals allowed]..
so you obesess some human to want to eat meat..

there also is no booze...
[fruit juice dont..'ferment'..[spoil/rot]..
thus no alcohol..etc

also tobacco leaf..dont burn..
so no nicoteen fix

its not too complicated..if ya need it..
ya find ways to get it

even dead..dont stop cravings
war spirits love war...think why killing dont end
gossip spirits love gossip...fearfull..love fright..hater love hate

talkers talk
mother'..s..mother
lovers love..drivers drive..obsessive's obsess

All common sense OUG, again and again, your explanations never require any science at all.

I have a google add running now OUG.

You don’t like the feet… they are beautiful feet with a french manicure no less! All the rage with the teen chickibabies for the last couple of years. I am cursed with many teen demons back here at the crib.

Returning to topic…My favourite movies are horrors, I would like to believe people are possessed and need exorcisms but I lack the imagination usually – sometimes I manage to convince myself I am scared in the dark. Constantine was very cool. Silent Hill was a fav although not about possession.

I swear I have seen several ghosts, doesn’t make them real though. Bishop Peter Elliott would call me naive I suppose.

Father Jordan on the other hand: “It does not occur in most everyday exorcisms, but I have seen the sort of stuff which Hollywood would go for. When people react badly to the exorcism, I’ve seen the convulsions, the rigid bodies, the frothing, the gibbering, the [speaking in unknown] tongues.”

Me too... it’s called magic mushrooms, datura, cactus, meth or lolly bags of script meds and would not surprise me if Bishop Porteous has been dipping into his own stash.

Father Amorth “You get used to being vomited over,”

Yes most of us with young children during a stomach flu feel the same way dear. Luckily we have Bishop Elliott and his mop to call on.

jewel [normally i love feet]..but them feet are repulsive
they may be in the french style...but they are unloved[just for show]

so i will supress..the spirit of revulsion..and return to topic

haunting is more common than people realise
further its not usually injurouse...in fact good and bad alike do it
[its the only real way to communicate this realm with theirs]

i have explained..that demons dont haunt...living..[incarnate]..beings
thats all done by those who have lived before...[frankly the reason they dont..is they cant stand our reek...[even the best ..let alone worst..smell bad]..so bad it sends them sensless..[this applies as much to angels as demons]...they dont haunt

we are unique says i offer no science
but i have repeatedly offered proof..[google 30 years amoung the dead]..this text alone recalls in excess of 100 exorsizems..[all of human type spirits..

the other texts..like gone west..heaven and hell..etc..that i have repeatedly posted links to...all verify the same things

sweden berg extensivlyt advises..much about the topic
its not as if the info isnt...out there

many wuill recognise such things as a rush..[of anger or inspiration etc]..this rush is the most common sign/symptom...denial of its reality...dosnt mean it aint so

besides its only obvious when the haunting is injurous
mostly they are of little or no noticable affect..and occasionally have very good affect..

[hypnotism..is but one way..thiese hauntings can be facilitated]..there are in-numerouse other methods...and i cant be botherd to explain it...to those obsessing their own deaf and blind mumbo jumbo..

it is said let him who would be decieved..be decieved

i have explained my bit numerouse times
now im pretty much over trying further
pearls before swine..and all that

its all based on perceptions

just as feet...judgments..are in the eye of the be-holder
the mind wills..what the mind wills..the rule is more shall be given

so its be carefull..for what we will
you just might get it..[or not]

It is true that some Charismatic and Baptist Churches have also adopted belief in demons as beings needing to be exorcised by the priest or minister. However they have been ignorant of the effects of freedom in Christ thinking and meditation on Western society; and assume bad behaviour or the mentally disturbed are possed by demons. The fact is we must look at the ideas and attitudes that occupy the mind of the disturbed or sufferer.
I watched a programme last night when a graffetti vandal claimed he is additcted to tagging anything he felt like as it was his form of expression and he should be allowed to continue his art. Obviously a background of disturbed childhood that needs reeducation in acceptable social boundaries. His demons were brainwashed poor childhood values - not beings. They were ideas not beings. However an authorative figure he totally respects could command the behaviour to leave him and it may make a difference.

Philo "However an authorative figure he totally respects could command the behaviour to leave him and it may make a difference".

What nonsense!

You're hiding behind 'demons' too.

We know Baptists are nutters who cannot be trusted with normal people,particularly young and unstable people, along with hordes of other religionists,but really Philo, to suggest that the graffiti gene can be 'commanded' out of this public nuisance is just wishful thinking, at best, or pure stupidity at worst.

I wonder what it would take to cast the 'demons' out of all our politicians, because the authority of the electors seems to make no difference?

Any ideas Philo?

Should we, the people, engage a political exorcist to command stupidity, lies, cheapskating, unintelligence, and anything else anyone else wants to add in, from these pathetic creatures?

Ah, the Baptists. Plenty of "demons"
there, I reckon. Check out the exemplary
activities of the Westboro Baptist Church:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church

On further reading, it's quite apparent
that the Westboro Baptist Church isn't
your typical Baptist congregation,
so it shouldn't be regarded as "exemplary"
in that sense.

That would be equivalent to characterising
all Muslims with the activities of Islam's
lunatic fringe, wouldn't it?

My apologies.

Sheesh UOG, there was silly old me thinking in terms of genes,
dna etc.

In a way you've made my case for me. Some people do in fact need
religion to cope with life and despite our understanding of
science, they prefer their perceived world of demons and spirits,
to understand it.

Fair enough, but it makes the point of the thread. Keep mumbo
jumbo in the field of religion as a lifestyle choice, but don't
burden the rest of society with it, for we have moved on from there.

Yabby,
If the demons are alcoholism, drug hallucinations, fear of demons science by itself is not able to give the person the total answers; as many intelligent scientists are subject to these addictions of behaviour and need a whole of life mental conversion to break the demon.

yabby..your faith in science
is the same as a childs faith in santa clause

you believe it..but got no idea of the merchanics

[i would say with religeon..you possably have more of an idea of the gebneral mechanics[creed]..but less on what jesus actually said]

i know your going to blather on about how you get science
so i think some proof is needed

so name the first living thing
that evolved...into the next living thing...of another genus family

its rather simple..and i expect two names from you
then the evidence.,.of the change of genus
[like dna proof..or some other science FACT

and dont be putting up a link and saying here

where in the link...?
what scientist proved it?
by what science method?
what is the proof?

so let hear FROM YOU

how life came..in the first place,..
[from nothing]..ie NON LIFE...to WHAT specific living thing

[usinmg..what non life bits]..
by what method..
who replicated its proof..into science fact..[where/when/who/how]

then its first evolution
into a new genus..!
what proof?

your the scientist..[lol]
give science proof..!

failing that lets hear how come the universe is
[everything came..*from something]...

what was the something..before EVERYTHING...?

by the way..lets hear ya proof of no god..

and stop ranting about demons this..demons that
you are ignorantly singing them up..[creating ya own demons]

please stop being so dumb...
you claim non belief..stop talking about them

they either are..or are-not...
[science remember]...lol

even if only in word..your making them real..*for you

Philo, there are no demons.

There are certainly those with genetic predispositions to certain
things, like alcohol, nicotine, various opiate drugs etc.

Much of psychology today involves explaining to people how their
mind works, so that they have a mental understanding of what is
going on in the brain. It helps a great deal.

So for instance, when people cannot get over traumatic experiences
from their childhood, it can be explained to them, how the amygdala
works, why it works how it does and why they keep reliving these
things. Understanding what the problem is, goes a great way to
helping people cope.

For the likes of UOG, who use their nicotine demon as a crutch, there
are even vaccines being developed, which will help them, where
willpower and excuses won't.

Not just nicotine but alcohol, cocaine etc.

So over time, science will provide answers, the mountain of evidence
grows daily.

But I accept, this is all far to complicated for many, so they cling
to simple explanations like demons and gods. Fair enough, as I
pointed out, some need that stuff to cope.

Yabby, funny how these types who decry 'science' line up at their GP and hospital for 'medicine', and not down at their local Mumbo Healing Room, unless they want to grow a limb back, or have a serpent extracted from their chest of course, complete with its eggs.

In those two cases, which are genuine I can assure everyone, I do concede that 'science' is not yet as advanced as the local witchdoctors are.

But I understand that it is being worked on.

see how pathetic
those claiming their god head..in science...(really are

they claim science
but cant use it...to explain buckis

next month..next year..lol
yeah...lol..tomorrow never comes

you lot..are just playing with each other
not a science thought..between ya

science is a shield..
allowing you lot to remain ignorant

i will let you bear..ya own demons

you been asked*..to present ya science
and it failed ya..

now like a mob of dogs..baying in the wind
its anything but...*present[validate].. ya claim

how pathetic you lot of knokkers..
[as in boobs..on a boobey..]bird]..

how pathetic you both..really are

science..the excuse for those..to ignorant
to actually..do the science study...

[its easy to make HIGH-claim..
and yet..be so ignorant..
as to do it..on faith* alone]

you make claim..because*..you dont get science
its like a class dummy[dunce]...thinking he is dux..

[ya know what thought did...
the same as you pair..]
NUTHIN...lol

know nothings..
making high claims
about stuff...you remain...completly ignorant on

talk about demons...lol..
you guys got them..
and dont even know it..

how scientific is that...lol
a..demon-stration..is worth a thousand words
you lot got it in pairs....what a joke...

[wat a pair of jokers]..lol

know nothings..going no where...fast
the blind leading the dumb...

it would be sad..
if it wernt so dumb..as to deserve pity

My dear One-Under-The-Weather.

My, you have really excelled yourself in that Last Post cry of yours.

Belly is easier to interpret than you are, old chaps.

I can see that this is too much for you, and your grey matter, to cope with.

Do take steps to calm yourself, a brown paper bag perhaps, drugs-oops, no science please- well, anything that takes the pressure of your frontal lobes will do.

Time for bed OUTW, time for bed and a good sleep.

OUG I stated - no science is needed given you make sense from your articles.

I am half way through reading your total postings over the years [commenced months ago] and had already read science debates you've had with people over the years [ie already aware of your viewpoints, further revelations and updates from above!

Yabby,
Please quote where I have claimed demons as beings do exist. I have mentioned addictions and fears that haunt some people - but demons as beings never!

The ancient Greeks believed a person who had drunk too much fermented wine was demon posessed. That is why alcohol is called spirits, because it alters rational behaviour. Science and education alone does not stop drunkedness. Yet I have known of shock situations that have converted alcoholics immediately. I was involved in the setting up of a drug and alcohol rehabilitation farm and have heard the testimonies of former addicts.

I write for religious journals exposing views of demons as beings as nonsense. The fact is many pagan cultures believe they do exist, and quoting science to them does not change their beliefs. It is like many intelligent Westerners who belive the stars determine their life so buy its daily readings; it is an intrenched belief, that science alone cannot break. Superstition needs more than science in many cases

Philo

Interesting... "I write for religious journals exposing views of demons as beings as nonsense".. good on you there.

"The fact is many pagan cultures believe they do exist", no doubt, but the point here, for me at least, is that Christians, most of them by the sound of it, also believe this, which is what the Oz article was all about. But not just Catholics. Far more than the Vicar of Rome peddles this demon garbage as a solid belief. Far more than what you dismiss as 'pagans' believe in it.

"and quoting science to them does not change their beliefs", quite so, and it's a bit like that when dealing with people who believe in something that 'isn't there'. No amount of logic shifts them from their childhood training in supernatural beings. Frustrating, isn't it? .

"It is like many intelligent Westerners who belive the stars determine their life so buy its daily readings; it is an intrenched belief" again, just like 'the faith' is an entrenched belief, of about the same standard as 'reading the stars' is.

I am so glad you can understand this, and see the problem so clearly.

The Blue Cross,
"it's a bit like that when dealing with people who believe in something that 'isn't there'. No amount of logic shifts them from their childhood training in supernatural beings".

Mary Ohare an atheist managed to have religion removed from American schools because she did not want her son taught religion, nor did she teach her son about Christ. What happened to the adult child Murray Ohare? He decided to study what his Mother was so opposed to so he could carry on what she had begun. Where is Murray today - a Christian and Conference speaker defending the faith of Christians. So childhood brainwashing does not work.

Ah, the well-known 'O'Hare Effect', eh?

My my, stagering proof.

But is this an absolute?

Does this happen to everyone, without fail, I wonder?

Could it be that there are as many who go 'the other way', and that the 'O'Hare Effect' might simply apply to O'Hare?

According to Philo's logic, Christians should
celebrate the removal of SRE from schools,
because an atheist education will cause the
children to grow up to be Christians.

I like it :)

Mind you, I think Philo's take on "demons"
is pretty reasonable. They work as metaphor,
so long as you bear in mind that they don't
really exist in any manifest sense.

No harm in that.