What would have happened if the Australian Government had offered Julian Assange sanctuary?
Would Australia have been diplomatically isolated?
Would sanctions have been imposed, keeping in mind our strategic importance and our equally important role as a mineral quarry?
Would it have been possible to allow the transparency to continue (which may be the case anyway, as Assange recognised that he was first and foremost "a lightning rod" for his cause).
Has the digital age changed forever the dynamics of international diplomacy and is Julian Assange an expendable martyr dragged under by those in power in a desperate attempt to stave off the inevitable and preserve the status quo?

times have changed..the news reveals that denial of service attacks...on those deneying service to julian..has begun...the fruit julias lies in part begat

sanctrury..is an interesting hypothesis...
but not ever likely to have been a reality

[we have long been the puppet of usa..and briton before it]

look at mark habbribe..in todays revealations...he told usa
julia..was to be the new king in 6 mths..[and lo..it was so]

julia and julian
one the tarbaby...and the other just...going to get in a stickey mess
[i have grown weary of julia]...cant even listen to her..on the radio

and when i see her holding children..i just feel sick
at least today i found out why...the ultimate usa sockpuppet

its bad enough she fully attacks julian...and would not hesitate to do..ANYTHING USA DESIRED..her speach i paliment..re the 'debate'?..on the war was sickening...clearly this person is no respecter of life living..[couldnt even be botherd passing on her own gift of life]

she claims to be a lawyer...yet clearly has a duel set of rules[one for her own..the others for the peons...[no she is no santury...more like a snake in the grass]...she thinks not of others...but only of her and her mates

im sorry to rebut the proposition..
but sancury...that isnt what usa wants
and with julia..mate she gives what she gives[nuthing]

unless your from usa

so that..sactimonious hope..for sancturay..from the julia
is something no julian cant have

im with the tar baby on this one
watch humperty dumbty fall...

how goes the song
ten green humpties...sitting on the wall
if one greenie bubble..should accidentally fall

there will be nine green humpty dumies..still sitting on the fence

im smelling rotten eggs...
but..there can be no sanctimonious sanctury..for any of them*

Hey pairot Can you explain what is the inevitable means.

Ah Poirot, you are assuming that DFAT, and the brave Kevin (let's attack China) Rudd, would lift a finger to assist a fellow Australian.

We all know that DFAT are regular abandoners of Australian citizens though, don't we?

And not just DFAT either.

Remember how the Commonwealth cops did the bidding of the Howard government and handed the drug smuggling ring over to the Indonesian cops to be shot?

Let's be honest, our government is more interested in appeasing its (although maybe not ours) interests in the world of trade than they are in protecting our fellow citizens

I think M. Poirot is mistaking Australia for
an independent nation that is proud to exhibit
its commitment to truth, freedom and democracy
in the way that it treats its citizens.

Poirot:”What would have happened if the Australian Government had offered Julian Assange sanctuary?
Would Australia have been diplomatically isolated?”

http://newmatilda.com/2010/12/08/what-has-really-been-disclosed
“Upon his return to Germany El-Masri complained to the German authorities who instituted criminal proceedings against, among others, the CIA officers responsible for his kidnapping, torture and unlawful imprisonment. According to the Wikileaks cables John Koenig of the US embassy in Berlin pressed the German government to block the investigations as the outcome could have "a negative impact on bilateral arrangements". The German government, to its great discredit, acceded to the request.”

And

‘The Wikileaks cables record an extraordinary, large scale and co-ordinated effort by the US State Department, senior politicians, and the US Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano to obstruct the criminal investigation. The Spanish authorities were warned by the Americans that the investigations would "be misunderstood" and would harm bilateral relations. US diplomats sought out and communicated directly with Spanish judges and prosecutors in an attempt to steer the investigation into "friendlier hands." “

I think Aussie would have been “handled”. Shame we didn't even test it though eh.

Did I just make Graham a wikileaks publisher?

Well, most of the commenters here seem to hold my own sorry view as to the expectation of government support if you deliberately transgress the "rules" of hegemony.
It was obvious that Julia Gillard and Robert McClelland assumed that they could maintain the usual solidarity with the U.S. by initially coming down hard on Assange with vague accusations of illegality on his part.
It's been gratifying to witness the clamour of support for him and his cause just grow louder and louder.
I wonder what will happen next?

579,
The inevitable is that Wikileaks is probably merely a template for other organisations to build upon...in the digital age, transparency is fairly easy to facilitate.

Poirot:

There's another interesting article entitled, "They Lock Up Journalists, Don't They?" by Austin Mackell that's to be found in "New Matilda."

Of course had the Australian government offered Sanctuary to Julian Assange, they would have had an immediate challenge from the US.

Poirot,

We have an extradition treaty with the USA, and we would be obliged to extradite for criminal cases (as Dr Patel was extradited to Aus) However, if this was determined to be a political crime, then probably this would not be covered by the treaty.

If we break the treaty, then Australian criminals such as Patel are safe in the US.

Under both forms of Australian government this country's leaders would not have the courage to do it.
And we need to remember he actually is held on other charges, many, myself included may think that is a blind.
What would happen?
In my opinion he would be kidnapped and surface ,or not, in America.
We should remember these comments have been made always, and about every government we ever had.
America must address its real problem, any thing any one said while Bush was in power is likely to be bad.
And its secrete service must be asleep.

Here's the GO, a GetUp ad in the USA for those here who support the Wiki fellow's right not to be impugned by the likes of American trash, and Australian politicians alike:

http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/Wikileaks?dc=1471,306007,2

I bet Senator Arbib will be donating a days wages, now he's been exposed as a fifth columnist working for the US embassy to topple his mate Rudd.

What a creep! Scuttling around like a turd-beetle doing the bidding of our great friend and ally.

Dobbing in his mates in his beloved rightwing ALP.

Does he also visit the embassy for Saudia Arabia I wonder?

TBC you again remind me just how differently you and I think.
Mark has done nothing hundreds before him, on both sides have done.
A poll if we had one would support the view most are concerned with Americas response not what has been said.
Spying for America, a member of the Australian/American council?
Unrealistic at best.
Another poster however gets the prize telling us we have a treaty to send criminals to America, on what charges, for what crime?

Ah Belly, you support this man then?

This is almost like the Fraser Whitlam event.

Sacked at the behest of the USA, a soft toppling of yet another government that didn't think quite as Uncle Sam did, so the theory goes for some, and it sounds attractive at first blush.

Now we find this turd-beetle rushing over to the US embassy drinks troupe, spilling his guts on everything within his own political party, and what? following the US instructions to knife Rudd and have him dumped?

Of course, the US were hoping that, with the help of those unprincipled journalists at the Oz beavering away to promote Abbott as hard as they could, that Gillard would have no chance of winning.

Sadly (yet also how pleasing too) Gillard won and Abbott failed, just, to win the prize.

Well may they say 'God save the Queen', because nothing will save Senator Arbib from the wroth of the party rank and file (not that there are any anymore, of course).

Fancy that, a turncoat, a Judas, a 40-pieces-of-silver man.

And I thought he was such a trustworthy looking man.

Makes me wonder what all those others that go to drinks at the embassy talk about.

Thank God for Wikileaks.

Belly,

"...on what charges, for what crime".

I believe some American lawmakers are investigating avenues of achieving a way to take care of that technicality (stay tuned)....same thing seems to be happening in Sweden.

TBC,

Thanks for the GetUp link.

The Oz has a story on Senator Judas Arbib. The comments are worth reading.

A mixture, for sure, but oh my, what anger there is at how Judas has behaved:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/wikileaks/labors-mark-arbib-defends-acting-as-a-labor-insider-for-the-us-embassy/comments-fn775xjq-1225968085419

I bet the Minister For Uranium Mining and Satisfying Foreign Interests will have been saying a few things he hopes will never come out into public, while enjoying a High Ball over at the US Party Central on Embassy Row in Canberra.

I agree, TBC,
Arbib joins the ranks of the most despicable politicians the Labor Party has ever produced. What a mob of toadies! Can anyone imagine Curtin or Keating or even Hawk sidling up to the Yanks, or even the British, the way these arse-wipes do: Rudd, Gillard, Arbib..
One expects that kind of thing from the conservatives, Menzies having led the way so unctuously, and of course the "man of steel" in the modern era, but the ALP rank and file must be feeling irredeemably soiled by this disgraceful want of political fibre in today's motley crew of gutless traitors to Labor!
In answer to your originary question, Poirot, I don;t believe the digital communication age will change the nature of diplomacy; this little storm in a tea-cup will be co-opted and end up serving (by adding aggregate to the mix) rather than challenging the status quo.
The system cannot be reformed, only overthrown

Dear Squeers,

I have no doubt that it will be co-opted to a greater or lesser extent. but I'm also getting a sense that ordinary people have suddenly realised the significance of the lens that Wikileaks has provided. The ability to see what is usually hidden has the potential to change the dynamics of the relationship between a nation and its people.
Just how this knowledge can be utilised to alter the present hegemony is the question at hand.

On a lighter note, Annabel Crabb wrote this entertaining article on "couldn't give a hoot" Kevin Rudd and Co.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/12/09/3089283.htm?site=drum

I am not sure what you all expect? The only thing i have found surprising to this point is how uncoordinated and lacking in conviction the attack from government has been. I really must give it to Bush and Howard, the attack would have been much more focused and concise. BY now we would all have been convinced Assange was a genuine terrorist.
So far all the whole episode has done for me is put the final coffin nails into my already shaky faith in the current political position. So far the only comment from an Australian politician that made any sense came from the control freak Mr Rudd. At least he had the balls to tell the Uass that the problem was of their own making so fix it without taking more political prisoners.
The whole leaks issue has only shown how close we are to a complete break down in real free democratic values. Hitler was truly only a couple of generations early, these days we would vote him in and call him a world statesman.
It is sad the way things have gone and i can only hope that we can manage to keep voting for a divided government in hope that some form of sanity will soon return, go the Greens and independents keep the shaky ground under the government. If this keeps going it will be RIP ALP for a very long time. I shudder to think where that will leave the average Aussie?

Yes Nairbe.

I was amused to read Ken Henry whingeing about having to do a modicum of work for a change now the Green-Independents are asking a handful of questions.

Poor souless souls, having to forego a smoko break to get the sums right.

Poor old Ken, having to answer a question, instead of telling them the answer to their unasked questions.

Wait till the US-Israel leaks flood out, then we'll see just how uncommitted the USA are to Palestine, and how they really support the expansion into Palestinian land.

Too bad there are no Russian leaks, that'd be a real laugh, with their leaders all on the dognbone to Italy every day, to get their Mafia instructions.

According to the Australian, Independent MP Andrew Wilkie has accused Julia Gillard of trashing freedom of speech...

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/andrew-wilkie-lashes-gillard-for-trashing-freedom-of-speech-over-wikileaks/story-fn59niix-1225968229482

Why not Poirot?

She's trashed left wing politics, the integrity of the office of PM, the ALP, good political behaviour (not alone there) and intelligent interviewing.

very funny how the lefties would call Mr Howard Bush's lapdog. Oh how the truth hurts!

Well runner never thought I could say this.
First time in my memory your comment is far from the silliest in this thread.
Wikileaks is run by a hero.
His information,the only possible crime, came from the only possible criminal, some one else.
Those who are in any way concerned at greens actions and intentions should read this thread.
I would guess no government this country ever had did not give such information to England and America.
What has been said about Rudd is true, shame we did not get this information about two years ago,Gillard and her cabinet have not betrayed us,yes they appear as focused as a blind man on a galloping horse, bound to the minority greens .
But Wikileaks is about truth freedom to be informed and to talk.
How many, tell me,find any reason to follow the green trail and condemn any Australian politician for talking to America.
In the strangest way condemning any of the Australian politicians lets America of the hook, they have leaked, they call even for death, they have little regard for what we know as law.
Howard and his crew and a lot more went all the way with the USA and in truth most Australians never knew how far they crawled on their knees.

The problem Jewelly with the Germans taking criminal action against the CIA is simple:

In the real world, there are issues of national security which cannot be effectively dealt with by the normal course of "law".

"Law"...remember is what is 'made up' in order to maintain a status quo of basic peace, so the cabal of very wealthy people can continue to exploit the wealth of a country for their own benefit.

It's an illusion to think that the "law" is ultimately intended to mean 'equal justice' for all.

[Deleted for objectionable language.]

AGIR:
<"Law"...remember is what is 'made up' in order to maintain a status quo of basic peace, so the cabal of very wealthy people can continue to exploit the wealth of a country for their own benefit>

Bloody hell, comrade, I might have written that myself!
Maybe we can be pals after all..

Squeers,

I saw Al's comment as well - couldn't have put it more succinctly myself.
The problem is that I suspect Al approves of this arrangement.

AGiR:” "Law"...remember is what is 'made up' in order to maintain a status quo of basic peace, so the cabal of very wealthy people can continue to exploit the wealth of a country for their own benefit.

It's an illusion to think that the "law" is ultimately intended to mean 'equal justice' for all.”

We are now seeing through WikiLeaks the illusion being unmasked on a massive scale? Not just equal justice unmasked but proof those governments are ignoring Law and pressuring others to ignore it?

So what is happening is that now Law must fight State and the battle lines are being drawn.

Am I getting closer to the real seed Assange has planted?

I'm not sure that 'basic peace' is at the centre of any diplomatic efforts.

The main purpose is to facilitate trade.

If that has a side effect producing a modicum of 'peace' they do not mind.

But of course, these days, war and conflict is good for GDP, to say nothing of profits.

Besides, Al's eal point was that 'man's law' cannot be trusted, only 'gods' law'.

He just forgot to write that.

Here's another slant on things from "New Matilda," :

http://newmatilda.com/2010/12/09/enough-sausages-assange

by Ben Pobjie.

Ho ho ho Belly, you are a wit and a joker!

"Those who are in any way concerned at greens actions and intentions should read this thread".

When Senator Brown's comments to the US demanding that we invade China, or we read how he has filled the 'listening ear' of Uncle Sam with petty details of the life habits and thoughts of the halfarsed parliamentary colleagues he opposes, and we hear him asking for a uranium mine to go in in the middle of some sanctuary somewhere, then we will know he is on the same level as Senator Judas Arbib (and the rest of them) and might start to agree with your anal-ysis of the politics.

Until then Belly, you might want to seriously re-think your blind faith in this machineman android.

I listened with horror to Stephen Loosley bragging about how all the ALP parliamentarians like to 'get close' to Uncle Sam and whisper sweet nothings into his listening ear, like the school milk monitors who would suck up to 'teacher' and get their hair ruffled by her/him with a re assuring 'good boy/girl' comment.

Lapdogs, poodles, Judas's, or just dickwits?

No, just ALP politicians, always with an eye for their self importance and self promotion, eager to please 'Sir', and without any whiff of self awareness, decency, or ideology.

Empty vessels... with a full superannuation account, and sinecures galore thrown at them afterwards, along with lifelong gold passes to keep their snouts in the trough at our expense.

Sure Belly, the Coalition do that too, but they have never pretended to look after anyone but themselves.

I think Judas Arbib's comments on how easily he accepted Gillard's 'new' politics says everything about how little the ALP is interested in 'social good' anymore.

Easy to see why New Matilda is broke with 'journalism' like this on offer!

Small thing I have come across from people watching the mastercard take down etc by hackers. I’m getting the odd worried comment about money over Christmas and how far this could go. Starting to hear that this payday it might be safer to take all money out in cash soon as it arrives.

I was wondering what affect, if any, that could have if people all over the world decide their cash isn’t safe or may become inaccessible to them at this time of year so they start removing it on mass.

Umm…?

Jewely,

I saw some media coverage where it was pointed out that the hackers are not shutting down the whole show, just some services of these companies such as new card applications and such like. This coverage also made it clear that there was no problem in accessing money or using the cards to make payments

Assange's lawyers spent an hour with him and he said he's generally in good spirits but frustrated that he is being accused of instructing the hackers to strike - something which he denies.

Yeah but Poirot – people panic.

People especially panic about money and if their money is safe and whether or not they can get to it. Other people are merely cautious and will remove it “just in case”.

Did it used to be called a Run on the Banks?

What would happen if millions of people thought “just in case”?

Last thing I read was:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/09/anna-ardin-julian-assange_n_794285.html
The rape accusations against Julian Assange may be falling apart as one of his accusers leaves Sweden. Anna Ardin, one of two women behind the rape charges against the WIkiLeaks founder, may no longer be cooperating with prosecutors, the Australian website Crikey reports.

Yes, Jewely I read that too - that one of the women was no longer cooperating...the plot thickens.

And I agree that people panic...we'll have to see if the attacks keep happening. If they settle down, people have very short memories and will revert to business as usual. It's a bit like the relatively rapid gain in confidence in the wake of a stock market correction.

This is interesting...it's a piece on the "insurance" file that is supposedly an encrypted file that is waiting in the wings should anything untoward occur to Assange or Wikileaks.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/12/08/wikileaks.poison.pill/index.html?hpt=Mid

Lexi,
What a regrettable position to take. We can all live our lives in such ignorance if we choose. It is like the family that denies that their child has a learning difficulty or that they have mental health problems. There are many in the community that still do this and they end up with lives that are out of control and great sadness upon them. The child grows up to be a drug addict and the suicide of a loved one was so unexpected, bar the mental health problem they all denied existed.
The situation with Assange is the same. We have enjoyed being mushrooms for a long time, now the sun is shinning and people such as those at new matilda want to do chicken little. Well it is not good enough, we now have no excuses, we can not claim ignorance. We must accept responsibility and vote accordingly. It is alright to run down the big mouths like Bob Brown and Bob Catter, but at least we know they are saying it as it is.

TBC we could have a drink and a laugh in real life, you make me laugh here often.
Pitiful how ever, sad laughter, those who appear to be as extreme as you only have a voice on the net.
Few would stop in the street to hear that.
Now, with Bob Brown appearing in the leaks with conservatives saying they too talk to America, can we refocus.
OH and that bit about going in to the war on lies, 5 years old that we knew that did we not.
Now in the event a chance to adopt an issue, take it over, fan it till it burns brightly the greens/very left are good at it.
Not much of a chance they get center stage any other way.
Surely we knew this was taking place, what crime Australians talk to our closest Friend.
Just as Wikileaks is not the problem nore its owner.
What has been said is lessor to the Nazi like American assaults on freedom of information and speech, its own First amendment lays right now in a septic tank in Washington.
Unable to plug the leaks it proposes actions dictator ships would hide.

That was interesting Poirot, I need some technical stuff explained to me but will annoy my local geek about it later. This is the latest thing I have read;

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/wikileaks/afp-to-decide-if-wikileaks-acts-illegal-as-government-cant-say-what-laws-were-broken/story-fn775xjq-1225968947963
“However Mr McClelland stressed today it was not his responsibility to determine guilt or innocence, and that Australians had died face down in the mud over centuries to ensure “no officer of the political class” could make this decision.”

Isn’t that exactly what the issue is? Australians and others have been dying face down in the mud and now proof appears that politicians were making the decisions or being coerced by other stronger political forces that were and are operating outside Law?

Isn’t it our Laws that we ultimately fight for because they are the foundation of each country and represent the people?

nairbe:

The Bob Pobjie article on Wikileaks given in New Matilda, was tongue-in-cheek and a satire. Not meant to be taken seriously. The author is well known for his satirical commentary. And New Matilda does offer a variety of opinions. One on a more serious note I cited earlier:

http://newmatilda.com/2010/12/08/what-has-really-been-disclosed

by James O'Neill.

Nairbe

Each to their own.

"The author is well known for his satirical commentary."

Indeed, but that's all he does.

It's like watching the Chaser crew forever.

It wears off, and anyway, what insight does it bring?

Belly, I'd love to have a beer, or more, with you because I do think we'd get on like a house on fire, even with our different political views.

In fact, because of them. I like the cut of your jib, your tenacity, your faithfulness to lost causes. It all strikes a bell with me, and my time as an ALP acolyte, albeit in a different faction to you.

Never forget that I regard you, and your chum Senator Judas Arbib, as extreme too, although I suspect you have been far more useful in your work as a frontline organiser than he ever has as a backroom dealer.

You could be right about 'the voice on the net' though, like via GetUp and their ad campaign lambasting Gillard, who you do not like or support, and the Yanks, who are clearly batshitcrazy at being exposed as complete dills, and dangerous ones at that.

I'll be in Sidders in January, we should meet up for a schooneranew.

Thanks Lexi,
I thought it a weak attempt to divert attention from the over excited reaction of the government to what in the end will go away given time. Should have known i was being had, but have been guilty of being a sucker a few times in my life.

TBC,
As a joke ok, but it is the apathy shown by this article that has become all to familiar in a once rebellious nation. Yes each to their own but if one is to be that ho hum about it then they should stay home next election. But as you said it was just tongue in cheek.

Jewely,

Thanks for the link.
Mr McClelland seems to be adept at repeatedly stating a conclusion while simultaneously claiming that he has no responsibility to determine such a thing....?

Going to the crux of the leaks, senior U.S. political commentator, Fareed Zakaria, writes in the latest edition of Time Magazine that: "Our anger at Wikileaks should not obscure the fact that it is Washington's absurd data sharing policy that made this possible. That's the scandal here that needs fixing."

Don't waste your time trying to fathom the verbal gyrations trotted out daily on this subject by our senior pollies. Instead, ponder the reasons why so many of us have responded so passionately to it.
George Orwell was onto something when he wrote:
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act

It seems that MP's from the left-wing of Gillard's parliamentary faction are revolting....enraged at the government's treatment of Julian Assange.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/wikileaks/julia-gillards-left-flank-revolts-over-julian-assange/story-fn775xjq-1225969233504

Not just the left Poirot, I hope.
It will cost me Friends but such is life, the dills who can not see Labor looks better on its feet than down on its knees are fools.
This will not go away.
Am I blinded by my views?
I understand we need America, but they are are they not, slipping away from freedom and democracy?
The GFC theft crimes against investors,did not bring calls for even death.
Has todays America been influenced much by its childhood study of Scrooge MC Ducks money bin?
We need ten Wikileaks.

belly..you know how loyalty goes
if not think of it as like talking
about ya wife or your boss or your party

somethings..arnt for cocktail party tittilation..or big noting

lets look at the white-anting..of all keven does friom then on
or the oppertuinity to build favour with julia..6 mths before she becomes the queen..

its teason...how ever its cloaked
or gossiping ...big noting..or bragetery
he deserves shooting...with a lump of his own dung

then what julia did in criminaling julian...without proof..or evidence
further reveals...there is too much of nuthing but gossip going on ammoung the labrats...as well as the liboc-rats

wont even get into the greenies dangling from their noses

bah politics make me bilious
po-lic-titions...are lower than the scum
flowing under the door lintles of the elite...lording it over the feral scum...lording it over the real scum

this smells worse than the old poolroom..in old parliment house

Belly,
I have made this comment before but i think that we are and have been for some time now, very poor friends to the US. What sort of friend goes along with his mate when he is making big mistakes. It has been like the US is driving drunk and we keep supplying more grog. Dosen't a real friend stand up and say give me the keys your making a mistake. If the friend won't realise what they are doing you hold out for some time but eventually they are not much of a friend.

Nairbe in part America has been driving drunk from about 1960, some may say 1950.
At the same time as the CIA was meddling in Chile America was also donating massive money to good things.
Australia may have played a bigger role in American involvement in Vietnam than they did.
What other country can we call on.
I think you, I and the world needs to look at the very real wrongs here.
England Germany, France Portugal, Spain and Holland, include every colonial power, acted no differently than the yanks here.
Australia, under two different forms of government sold half of new Guinea out we have no halo.
I revel in Wikileaks, welcome the blushes on a lot of faces.
No longer thanks to the net can we be lied to with safety.
But for me, truly the biggest crime is America and its Allys, us too acting like Nazis, not one gee we are sorry we said that.
Watch FOX hold on I know its torture but worth the effort, Gobells was an amateur he was no match for the worst of America.
Yet much good comes along with the bad from the USA.

Wikileaks has presented us with a more realistic picture of life in nations where we've been involved in helping create chaos that causes thousands to flee to nations like Australia. It has exposed the lies and ineptitude behind the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our PM should call for a fair trial for Julian Assange. She should not join the chorus of those calling for his persecution.

the likes of Assange cry out for the country that gave them a good life to rescue them even after pooping on it. How anyone can make heroes out of them defy logic.

Runner,
Yes i know, each to their own, it takes all sorts to make the world tick and so on but i must say do you have any fathom of what good things this country was built on.
The hard yards and big lifting were done by convicts, the spine was built with greek and italian immigrants and our freedom assured by our ever active rebellious social disobedience.

Again this maybe my interpretation of history but all the colonial masters managed was to decimate the indigenous population exploit the land and bring the priests that oppressed all the valuable knowledge and friendship out of the locals, we still have little hope of reconciling what we did to them.

Sorry all i know i should ignore runner but the lack of expansive thought is stunting. I suppose the love of the warm glow of the all knowing god will heal all, pity it has never been done in known history.

Nairbe far be it for me to agree, I too can not avoid runner some times.
I once followed his God, but for the goodness and hope not the spite hate and a lot more I see here.
Judge not less you be judged is a thing that comes to mind.
May I ask what if I am wrong, God exists, who will be judged worse.
Me for no longer believing.
Or runner for judging in his Gods name?
All good people,all who want better government honesty surely do not want that dream to die as Wikileaks founder rots in some prison.
For what crime, uncovering lies?

runner:

I realise that you're a good person and probably mean well, but you have to admit that you are very judgemental and don't allow for human frailties. Listen to your inner voice is my advice (for what it's worth, probably not very much, in your view). Remember whatever thoughts we hold toward others we are holding about ourselves as well. It is only in relinquishing our focus on another person's guilt that we can know the joy of our own innocence. Here's something to think about:

"I have wept in the night for the shortness of sight
That to somebody's need made me blind
But I have never yet felt a tinge of regret
For being a little too kind!"

Be kind!

Belly you really do fail to see your hypocrisy. You accuse me of judging while doing the very thing to me that you claim I do to others. Hopefully you will wake up to yourself.

Aw Runner, I can do nothing but defend the right I believe you have to voice your opinion.

But I have to disagree with Lexi, if I was you I’d be staying the hell away from that inner voice and start listening to a few external ones.

There you go runner, judging Belly again.

So un-xtian of you, old chap.

We all know you have only ever read one book in your life, and see no need to go beyond that age old tome, but as nairbe was trying, gently, to say to you, not all the answers can in fact come from its ever-so-slightly grubby pages since it was written by men so very long ago, in a world far distant from the one we are now in.

Sure, some of the metaphor can be drawn on to twist into some form of relevance to today, but that's about it runner.

Take a leaf out of Belly's book.

He too has firm beliefs, unshakeable by all accounts, but he also has foresight enough to know when to see value in another point of view, as do most of us here.

You sound scared of and by everything that goes on runner, as you retreat into your godly shell hole and hurl your 25lbers out at us all.

Ease up, see a chaplain, say a quiet prayer or two, live dangerously and meditate, say 'OM' for a while.... lay back a little, take it easy.

Our society does have the principle of justice.

But it is not a principle if it is selectively applied.

Did wikileaks publish any lies?

Rusty

Thanks all,rusty while short you have in that post hit the bulls eye.
This is not about undermining the west,America, any country or faith.
It is about our right to know.
And maybe about the way we have been taken for granted.
Who knew Rudd feared Afghanistan as much as we all do, who understands the implications of that?
My inner voice tells me we can be a better world IF politicians are held to task.
Remember the never talk politics or religion mantra pressed on generations?
How wise is that, given these Revelations?
Are we better for knowing talking and acting on lies.
Or should we retreat in to our shell and say let them do as they wish.
You will never empty the Sydney harbor with a shovel, and unless we are governed by dictator ship never stop Wikileaks by threats and the resulting insult to freedom of speech is,,, in my view unAmerican not from the America we grew up with not from the constitution that once drove a once proud country, not far different than another anticommunist witch hunts.

Rusty, spot on.
We seem to always remember our nations as free and just, which on the whole they were and still are. But i feel that since the Vietnam war where the media exposure of truth cost government dearly the battle has become one of secrecy. Our governments don't want us to know what they do, say and think because they know we will demand that they do as we the people wish not what their own power base needs or bid business dictates.
Assange has reminded us of just how in the dark we have been kept since that time. It is know for us to increase our vigulance and not be so easily lead by government spin and story telling.

Rusty:

You're spot on. It's one thing to feel that you're on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path. Governments need to be held accountable.

OK, so when will the Australian public ever take matters into their own hands and sack the offices of our brave politicians, like the French are able to do with their understanding of 'solidarity', and now look at the UK students protesting over that lie riddled Lib Dem and his support for an anti-educational rise in student costs?

Wouldn't that be an interesting Wikileak, into the grovelling nature of the Lib-Dems to wars their Tory masters, and then between the Tory PM and the very un-socialist US president?

Oh my!

What does he mean?

"Wouldn't that be an interesting Wikileak, into the grovelling nature of the Lib-Dems to wars their Tory masters, and then between the Tory PM and the very un-socialist US president?"

Sorry, try 'towards' rather than 'to wars'.

Hard to get good proofing people these days.

It's interesting that Julian Assange was not formally "schooled" to a great extent during his formative years and , therefore, avoided the conditioning that is part and parcel of the system.
He sees things as black and white because his ethics are not compromised by having spent years in an institutional environment that is set up primarily to turn out obedient half-educated consumers to take part in the dance of consumer society.

In an interview in Time Magazine he was commenting on the effects upon organisations of the leaks. He said:
"....organisations which are abusive...need to be in the public eye. They then have one of two choices: One is to reform in such a way that they can be proud of their endeavours and proud to display them to the public. the other is to lock down internally and to balkanise and as a result cease to be as efficient as they were. To me that is a very good outcome, because organiations can either be efficient, open and honest or they can be closed, conspiratorial and inefficient."

TBC
Good point about the LIb-Dems in Britain and their throwing over of much that they supposedly stood for.

Poirot:

I'd like to get your opinion on the following quote that I found on a website and ask you what you think of it? "Assange raves about radical transparency but Wikileaks does not have a fixed address nor does it offer us any understanding of its mechanisms for accountability. Assange has to be prepared to have his own organisation's process and funding open to examination. He must also take responsibility for the outcome of the leaks because the results can be devastating for innocent people caught in the crossfire..."

Lexi,

From the same interview in Time Magazine, Assange was asked if there were any circumstances in which he saw secrecy as necessary and an asset. He replied:
"Yes, of course. We keep secret the identity of our sources, as an example - take great pains to do it. So secrecy is important for many things, but shouldn't be used to cover up abuses."

My opinion is that in order for an instrument like Wikileaks to proceed, it needs to protect itself against the overwhelming destructive forces emanating from the entrenched hegemony it challenges.

Assange said, "We don't have targets, other than organisations that use secrecy to conceal unjust behaviour."

lexi quote..<<Wikileaks does not have a fixed address>>.

i hear its in some granit fallout shelter
but it has a web address...[ok i cant quote it
but google will reveal it so

<<nor does it offer us any understanding..
of its mechanisms for accountability.>>

its not for ..'it'..to state..or for...'it'..to judge
it is a fiction..a corperation..corperations need spokes people..acting as trustees,...for the croperate FICTION..
they ARNT..the fiction
only acting as its trustee..[like any trustee position..you dont talk about the messenger..[trustee]..but about the trust...and its current puropse mission

any lawyer could explain about real people..and trusts...[fictional persons]

then we change tac..going the messenger[who is a real person...and media sems to have no trouble fibnding HIS mum..family etc..but lets QUOTE..<< Assange has to be prepared to have his own organisation's process and funding open to examination.>..

just ask those suppressing his funding accounts...and wikipedias funding accounts..all reportedly suspended

IM UNSURE WHAT YOUR ASKING FOR>>>MORE?

<< He must also take responsibility for the outcome of the leaks >>

no lawyer acting in a trust position..[on BEHALF of a coorperation..can be held liable...he has the same rights as any lawyeer..OR any other media SPOKESPERSON>>>FULLSTOP

<<because the results can be devastating
for innocent people caught in the crossfire>>>

what cross fire?

who lit the fire
who is calling for deatynsquads
not julian
not wikpedia

the person your quoting
needs to get a life

or lear law...they could well be liable for damages
you should quote the source to protect yourself

not from julian
but his legal council

especially if/..when he gets iced..by mossad or cia

loose lips sink ships

on the topic of sanctury
lets recall the santury..created in israel

PALESTINANS DYING FOR LACK OF WATER,
can't travel within their own country,

GENOCIDE ALERT!


Subject: Ask not for whom the bell tolls
life under tyranny

Elizabeth

Americans used to think they had nothing
in common with Palestinians.

Best wake up.

What happens when a hostile government
feels..it can do anything..it wants..to you.

Palestinians can't travel freely in their own
country either...and that's just the beginning
of the cycle.

Video:

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/990.html

Poirot and OUG:

Thanks to you both for clarifying a few things for me. I certainly don't have all the answers and I was running out of arguments with a family friend. I hope you won't mind if I quote some of what you guys said - because it makes sense.

Dear runner,

From Matthew 10

“So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. “

What if he is the one?

csteele

'What if he is the one?'

You will know them by their fruit. Sleeping around is not something Jesus encouraged.

This mornings Sydney Herald has yet another exclusive Wikileaks leak, in a seemingly few exclusives to come.
Worth a look.
Yet another Labor member of the federal government says Julian should face the courts for his actions.
Tell me please do,is it the intent of his enemy's to stop information we should know being let out?
I again am offended by the invasion of this thread by introduction of Christianity.
As remote from the thread as monkeys in gum boots I must ask is it so hard to start a thread?

Dear Belly,

It is not often I agree with runner but you are indeed a hypocrite my friend. You introduce 'runner's God' into this thread, zip out biblical quotes 'Judge not..." and then reminisce about your past faith. Then you say you are offended by the reintroduction of Christianity into the thread.

However taking your point the issue of Australia providing sanctuary got blown away with the Hew Griffiths case. Here was an Australian who had never even visited the US accused of breaking their copyright laws, held in an Australian prison for three years before being extradited to the US to face up to 10 years jail time. This is despite the acknowledged fact he did not sell any of the pirated software for profit.

Many people in the Australian legal profession rightly regarded this as very troubling. I think it has served to make the options for Australia to offer anyone sanctuary from US law virtually nonexistent, unless of course the death penalty comes into play.

csteele says:

"... the issue of Australia providing sanctuary
got blown away with the Hew Griffiths case. Here
was an Australian who had never even visited the
US accused of breaking their copyright laws, held
in an Australian prison for three years before being
extradited to the US to face up to 10 years jail time."

I think in the Hew Griffiths case the Australian government siezed upon the convenient cop-out claim that Griffiths was NOT an Australian citizen, and used that claimed status of Griffiths as justification for 'running dead' with regard to contesting the US request for his extradition. As I understand it, Hew Griffiths came to Australia as a child from the UK, in much the same way as did our present Prime Minister, and, again as I understand it, did not take out Australian citizenship on his own account at any subsequent time.

Perhaps as many as one million persons still living who migrated to Australia as British subjects with British passports, and have lived here ever since without taking out Australian citizenship as such, fall into this category.

Not that most Australian politicians would want to know it, but there could be a problem with the way the Australian government seemingly washed its hands of its responsibilities in the Hew Griffiths case, and in the way it has disfranchised many of the permanently resident British subjects. That problem would appear to be the Constitution.

Arguably Section 44 of the Constitution implicitly establishes equivalent status with respect to citizenship as between permanently resident British subjects and native-born Australians, where it exempts from disqualification from being a member of either House of the Parliament officers or members of both the forces of the Commonwealth AND the Queen's (ie. British) forces in receipt of pay, half pay, or pension.

To the extent that Australian citizenship legislation fails to recognise this equivalence in status, it would presumably be able to be found unconstitutional. Griffiths (now in Australia released from US imprisonment) could be due compensation for justice denied due to his true citizenship status having been ignored.

Kevin Rudd has mounted a strong defence of Julian Assange's legal rights and is prepared to intervene to provide him with a laptop to help prepare his legal defence. Rudd also spoke in regard to suggestions by Julia Gillard and Robert McClelland referring to the possible cancellation of Assange's Australian passport saying that passport decisions were his responsibility as Foreign Minister.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/kevin-rudd-defends-julian-assanges-rights-and-promises-him-a-laptop/story-fnniix-1225969826148

dont go the free-laptop..julian
dopnt you know these giveaways all-ways got strings attached

i used to love kevie with a passion
[or maybe hated mr howhard...too much and got despirit]
but in the end knew he can only be...that his peers..let him to be

i guess that goes the same for any politition...[ i call it party polution]..the dumbing down of conscience..made into an art..gently struired never shaken..with a twist of spin..and ya on the road to sin

anyhow dont take the laptop..
its barely safe bying them off the shelf
talk about programed in obsolecance...after 6 months..the battery will only charge 60 percent..[over night the program kicks in..from that day you can only get a half charge]

anyhow you will never get it through customs
be it the c4...or the fact its a clone...

or only takes you to mirror sites..
for one thing you could never be alone

every stroke shall be recorded..then there will be times it simply wont work...no the gift horse is broken..no one gives you something for nuthing..[no one]..everything will have strings attatched..

its just the way it it
talk is cheap...julian has his own laptop
he just wants out of jail[or bail]...not a new computa..he aint no puta

Csteel come you are aware runner posts only about Christianity.
And judges every issue on his belief.
IF I got in to every thread and turned it to my union or ALP would you ask why.
What is happening here? I am aware of one Church that sends door knockers hoping to be abused so they win points in Heaven.
Happy to help.
But is it now so hard to sell your God that you must impose him on subjects so very distant?
IS it so important to try to force us away from discussing a subject.
Then we are close to getting as bad as the worst reildgions if it demands we give up our right to think freely,

I just wonder if all those Assange fans are willing to admit that Wikileaks sole goal is to damage the US and its allies.

The pretence that this is about freedom of information is laughable. Assange himself acknowledges that his goal is to reduce the freedom of information within gov't to make them less efficent. In other words, to wound.

Who does it serve to know that the US amabassador thinks Silvio Belusconi is a vain and feckless moron? Or that Sarkozy chases small mammals.

Who didn't know that Vladamir Putin has seized power for himself in Russia? Or that the North Koreans are mad dogs?

Who's honest enough to admit that this is about hurting the US and its allies. Nothing more and nothing less.

PualL liked you post, not because I agreed with any of it.
But because it highlighted why I think America needs help, to return to its roots.
Wikileaks has targeted a great deal more than the yanks in fact are seen in these leaks.
Can it be we should not know the truth,look at my team.
Rudd ,American ambassadors knew before I did Kevin was an empty shell.
The diplomatic bags from many country's over the last two century's would contain much the same stuff.
The real problem here is the actions of Americans, or proposed ones including death,why?
It seems this country, one we all know leads the free world, its way, wants to be free to do as it wishes without question.
Afghanistan, case in point, how can we win, why stay, why the corruption,why do our troops die and a prime minister who sent them say it frightens him.
No, I am not saying we do not fight extremism, but we create more of them every day and I want to know every thing America wants to hide.

Below is a link setting out the timeline for Assange's visit to Sweden and the events that followed.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/12/13/rundle-timeline-of-assanges-visit-to-sweden-and-events-that-followed/

Poirot while was aware of this thanks for the link.
We now face a true massive problem history is full of victims of powerful nations.Many condemn, rightly so China for its record Burma, what ever it is called now.
We see evidence finally that yes Russia MURDERED those polish officers in ww2.
And if China was after Wikileaks, many of those hunting for this man, would want to protect him.
ANY ONE who cares about freedom, our right to know should speak up , America must not have second country's acting on near lies act in its name.

Never fear, Belly,- it seems that Julian Assange and Wikileaks has today attracted solid support from Australian media representatives in the form of an open letter to Prime Minister Julia Gillard...quite an impressive list at the bottom of the letter.
Jolly good show!

http://www.walkleys.com/news/1076/

Well Poirot, it would be impressive if they were truly journalists, and they really worked for 'news' organisations.

Sadly, they are mostly 'rags', and they barely carry 'news', and certainly rarely of ever question the status quo.

Still, if we all pretend hard enough, then yes, it looks impressive.

TBC,

Still, the tide in political and media support of Assange and Wikileaks appears to be firming...here's some more.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/wikileaks/party-revolt-at-gillards-wiki-stance/story-fn775xjq-1225970522440

http://www.avaaz.org/en/wikileaks_petition/?slideshow

"We call on you to stop the crackdown on WikiLeaks and its partners immediately. We urge you to respect democratic principles and laws of freedom of expression and freedom of the press. If WikiLeaks and the journalists it works with have violated any laws they should be pursued in the courts with due process. They should not be subjected to an extra-judicial campaign of intimidation."

Wow! Who would ever have thought the ALP had 'other' members of parliament?

Doug Cameron, in there for years, done nothing, said nothing, supported Rudd and Gillard without question, now finds a voice.

What next?

Shall we start a thread supporting Rudd for PM?

That would be a larf hahaha.

And sundry non-entities too, like Ferguson, never said Boo! to Rudd, never questioned his brother's support for uranium mining and everything overseas miners want, suddenly, 'speaks out'.

My, my, the peasants are revolting.

As for our AG, well, he's a DLP throwback, like Gillard but she's a Baptist really, even worse than DLP, so what could we expect?

It's taken the New Voices a long time to see what "we, the people" are saying though, hasn't it?

TBC,

No doubt about it - they all waited to see which way the pendulum swung and if the government's initial stance was going to hold sway as it usually does when crushing dissent. Belatedly, they seem to have accepted the extreme level of support in the general community for Assange and Wikileaks

Poirot, if we were French, we'd have burned the giant flagpole to the ground by now.

If we were English, we'd have hurled rocks through the windows of The Lodge and set the CommCar pool alight.

If we were American, we'd have started endless litigation against every politician in Canberra.

Sadly, we're Australian, so a 'moment in the sun' will have to suffice as numerous blogs go apeshit in support of Mr Wiki.

It'll all have vanished by next week, and we'll get back to the barbie, xmas, and moaning about politics.

I have been here from the first second TBC you fish in a dam that has been dry for century's if you think you can turn this issue in to a lefty one.
And do harm to its victim.
The support for free speech is widespread and far more than your sides 11% and shrinking.
Gillard is however a flop and a few of her team nearly as bad, roll on Bill Shorten.
In about an hour we will know if he got bail, or if laughable put up not existent sex crimes help America kidnap him with the help Of Sweden.
If that happens we are in dreadful strife and democracy is dead.

Belly, the issue at hand challenges the status quo.

It therefore falls into a vague and general 'left' sort of 'issues box', whether you like that or not.

The 'right' always support the status quo, and seek to go further right while they are at it.

You have moved 'left', although not Left I do concede.

And some of your statements are quite radical, even if you do not understand why or how that can be.

Who is 'the victim'? Mr Wiki, or open government? Or both?

I know you like Shorten, but he is part of the status quo, and will never seek to change one iota, except to position himself into government.

Once there, he will be as reformist as Swan, or Emmerson, or Gillard for that matter.

The ALP does not have the wherewithall to change, to govern, to keep Abbott out for that matter.

Here is a brief summary, sent by a Pommy colleague to his chums in the UK, as he awaits Ponting's next failure at the WACA.

It rather echoes my observations- and he has only been here about 10 days:

"What I think holds Australia back most are its politicians, who seem to lack the abilities they would need to get elected to a County Council in England. Rudd was a monster, Gillard looks a lightweight to me, and the opposition are just a joke, led by a sort of Aussie Berlusconi in budgie-smugglers."

So, will Shorten beat Tony Berlusconi?

Sorry to interrupt, boys, but I just wanted to mention something I noticed this afternoon when I strayed onto Fox News (not my usual port of call).
I caught Glenn Beck's show (pity AGIR is not about).
He had Fox News' regular legal adviser on the show to talk about Assange and Wikileaks. So, I sat there waiting for the demolition job.
Surprisingly, though, the opposite occurred.
Beck first asked his audience to signal if they felt uncomfortable about what Assange was doing. Most of the audience raised their hands.
Beck then asked who in the audience wanted Assange shut down - only five members of the audience raised their hands.
Slightly non-plussed, Beck turned to Judge Napolitano for his views questioning the legality of Wikileaks actions (no doubt, for some support).
However, the judge wasted no time spelling out the letter of the law to Beck stating that: "The thief is the person who commits the crime - The person who disseminates the material is not the one who commits the crime".
He went on to say that he applauded the exposure of the truth and that the U.S. Government had behaved reprehensibly by intimidating the vendors who did business with Wikileaks - adding that the constitution prohibited such engagement.
We were left with a rather deflated Beck murmuring vaguely about who was behind Wikileaks and who was funding them, until he ran out of puff and wished everyone a Merry Christmas.
Thoroughly entertaining to watch Beck's carefully crafted Tea Party agenda washed away by Fox News' own regular legal adviser - not to mention the tepid audience response.

Poirot, you are brave indeed to watch such gormless TV (what next, Oprah?).

A welcome interlude from you as a result, I'd say.

Of course, this will not change the habits of governments, they are born-to-lie.

But it does begin to make the immediate more difficult for some governments.

I doubt China cares, nor Russia, but those who pretend to be virtuous, like we do, and the Yanks, and Brits, well, they've lost it by the sounds of it.

Of course, as far as Tea Party drones go, this is grist f'mill I'd have thought.

Conspiracy-plus, which is right up their street, and the 'normal' Republicans too, scared of Commos and Big Government alike should be welcoming this expose, not trying to close it down.

It validates their claims of 'can't be trusted'.

What else can they say, "Support the Obama outrage"?

Poirot thanks,while told you to watch fox I understood it is a hard task.
TBC gee radical me, I am an activist am radical and always will be.
Once trying to empty the Sydney harbor with a jam jar on your side of the fence I grew out of it.
You can not,hijack this issue, it is about human rights not anti America or leftist thoughts.
If it was the whole group could fit in to a wheat bix box, unity is strength.
This mornings news, that Sweden has stopped wiki as you call him from being bailed is ominous.
Can it be these put up crimes are in fact being used by this country on its knees, to help an out off control America stamp on our right to know?
By the way Bill Shorten is what Rudd the dud has us thinking he was, Gillard, gee I hear the comrades rumbling, is as handy as a rocking horse in the Melbourne cup.
In time my mob will understand, perception is reality like it or not only the opposition is working for Labor.

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/assange-granted-bail-then-sent-back-to-prison-20101215-18x46.html
"Wikileaks founder Julian Assange has been returned to London's notorious Wandworth Prison despite winning bail from a British Court.

He will now be held there for another 48 hours while Swedish prosecutors, who want to extradite him back to Sweden to face allegations of sex crimes, mount a High Court appeal to the decision.

Mr Assange's legal team, led by Australian born QC, Geoffrey Robertson, offered a total of £240,000 ($380,000) in surety, and agreed he wear GPS satellite tracking tags, report to local police every day and adhere to strict curfews while the extradition case, set down for next month, goes ahead.

Jewely

Good link, thanks.

I'll sell my Volvo and Saab immediately.

Good to see Geoffrey Robertson QC is on-the-job.

Sweden may well suffer a backlash as a result of their subservience to the USA on this.

Will we see Obama return his Nobel prize maybe? He is a Democrat isn't he?

Now, where is Denton and his plan to kidnap the infamous millionaire Skase when we need him?

I see there is a struggle to raise 240k quid for his bail. Hard to imagine but clearly time for Denton to enter the scene with an appeal for this cash.

And maybe a jail breakout too?

Apparently it's highly unusual to appeal the decision in a case like this. Assange's lawyer has called the Swedish prosecution's appeal vindictive.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/wikileaks/swedish-prosecution-vindictive-says-wikileaks-lawyer/story-fn775xjq-1225971360309

This is a link to the UK Press Association announcement in relation to the Assange bail hearing decision handed down yesterday: http://bit.ly/efVh6t

It is interesting seeing the lawyer acting on behalf of the Swedish authorities attempting to put words in the bail hearing court's mouth, reported thus:

"Lawyer Gemma Lindfield, on behalf of the Swedish
authorities, reminded the court during the hearing
it had "already found that Mr Assange is a flight
risk". She said: "It's submitted that nothing has
changed since last week to allay the court's fears
in this regard.""



Interesting the focus upon Assange being a 'flight risk' when he surrendered himself to UK authorities in the first place, isn't it?



Are the words 'flight risk' echos of the language habitually used with respect to persons sought for extradition to the US that describes such as 'fugitives' in advance of any conviction, by any chance? The slight difference in terminology a result of sequential US English/Swedish/UK English translations of diplomatic communications, perhaps?

Good to see how that little attempt was dealt with by the judge presiding over the bail hearing.

Intriguing too, the Swedish focus upon a claimed lack of record of Assange's entry into the UK. Surely any question with regard to that could only have arisen within the UK? How, in the normal course of events, would the Swedish authorities get information as to such a claim other than from UK sources? And why, unless they were trying to infer that Assange had 'fled' from Sweden to the UK, would the Swedish authorities even be interested in such an internal-to-the-UK matter? Would it have offerred some possibility of the avoidance of extradition due process being followed within the UK if such a claim could have been sustained, I wonder?

I wonder too, given Australia is a member of Interpol, what inquiry is being made as to how an Interpol warrant could have been validly issued for the arrest of an Australian citizen before the laying of any specific charges? Kev?

I’m trying to work out how anyone can afford to be arrested in one country because another country requests it then you have to be able to live in the country you are arrested in on top of whatever bail you had to come up with. Other people don’t have friends with the cash Julian’s mates do.

For other Aussie citizens would our government be helping them financially?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-granted-bail-by-british-judge/story-e6frf7lf-1225971234564
“The lawyer said the only correspondence his client had received was a note telling him that a copy of Time magazine sent to him had been destroyed because the cover bore his photograph.”

Sad one.

Hey!

Just come through from GetUp:

http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/Wikileaks&id=1504

Gillard could be the Sheila behind the Fox desk, and our AG the goose who wants endless wars.

Wonder what the PM in waiting says on this though?

Any idea what the Royal Bill has to say Belly?

Maybe the fundies on OLO could hold a virtual prayer-meet for Mr Wiki to have his jail walls fall down at the same time as the Swedish Embassy is struck by lightning and burned to a cinder?

Over to you runner, AGIR and OUG.

Gillard is a dud TBC, see my post the day she took over.
Now yes, I will be verbally flogged in my old work haunts, not however by the rank and file.
I commited a crime there, they like me, trusted me and share my views.
Gillard would poll dance in the white house to keep her job.
She can not, a new leader would increase our polling over night by 5%
Sweden is being used ,we know that, the savior of the world has forgotten why they became great.
It was not by lieing, not by insulting truth and maybe we will see even worse in the next few days how can an Australian break American laws by passing on something he did not take?

It's called fencing stolen property.

That is if information is considered property.

It is the only crime I could think of that fitted. :)

Is someone going to add all these different petition sig's together?

Is something rotten in the state of Sweden?
The legal manoeuvring surrounding the detention and/or release of Julian Assange continues to drag on.
In the following article, Greg Barns finds a parallel between Assange and Haneef.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/42228

Belly, one thing we do agree on, and always have, is that Gillard is a waste of space.

Even Judas Arbib thinks that, so it seems.

The Prince Consort Tim might be her only friend right now.

Jewely, but with 3 million people in the USA with access to the leaked US information it might be hard to insist the info was 'stolen', which rather conjures up a Watergate style invasion and safebreak exercise.

Sounds like 'patriots' gave it away willingly.

Probably rightwing conspiracy nuts, proving that their federal government cannot be trusted.

Tea Party types, Republicans, the un-empowered 'middle' America.

Can’t Aussie say sod it all and bring him home?

Can we accuse him of something worse and thereby get him extradited here?

Swap Assange for every pommies family that arrived here after 1945?

Declare war on Sweden?

Put a spade through that internet thing linking the US, us, and NZ?

Could every lawyer and judge in the land go on strike until Julian is safe?

Shouldn’t they be choosing their weapons and facing off against all the politicians at dawn all over the world anyway?

Couldn't have said it better myself Jewely, it seems the time has arrived.

In every country jewely, all over the world people post in blogs threads and petitions just as we are here.
It would be unwise to think we are not being seen ,silly
?, no not so.
Phones are tapped an American sits still in a federal prison, for telling the world about among other things Americas interference in this country's politics in the 1975 debacle.
I can assure you, believe me, we are being watched if the subject is sensitive, this is.
In 1975 I joined a lefty mob, [I was young ] to Assert The Constitution Over Curr sorry Kerr SACK.
The AONA office of nationalassesment, spys, told me I was on their lists.
My crime? collecting money to buy the best wines to send to our GG to keep him in his most often found state, Drunk.
Watch America, do not trust them ,this man is no criminal, if the polls show,and they do, most of us do not want him stopped Julia Gillard will dance naked on the forecourt of the house to be popular

I don’t think Julia would make many new friends doing that Belly, Megan Fox she aint.

I suppose there is being seen then there is being noticed. No idea how they do it, I have recently met two other Jewely’s online, both Aussie females. You got a browser that shows you what servers you are connected to? Weird the things that pop up and what little messages you get like what places are getting paid by other places.

I have no idea what happened here in 1975. Or who GG is..?

Chyah Thinker… wish Aussie would put its foot down and do something or even be seen to be trying to do something would do.

Does Aussie have some kind of tipping point where suddenly the public are heard and action taken?

Jewely - in answer to your last question....only if it's politically expedient to do so.

The tipping point?

Good question.

In all truth, the last Howard election was a 'good' tipping point, but the solution was just as bad.

Another tipping point came with 'boat people', then there was Hansonism, 1975 (Belly alluded to it too) almost counts as one but the people lost interest and carried on as if nothing had happened.

Ponting losing another Ashes series will be one.

The referendum to 'count' Indigenous people was one, but that would never happen now, so that might count as another tipping point.

I suppose if apathy were to be prohibited, that might cause an uproar but whether it reached a tipping point crescendo is another matter- probably couldn't be bothered to go that far.

A VERY good question.

Jewely on 11/11 month WW1 ended in an armistice in 1918.
They hung Ned Kelly on that day.
And in 1975 on that day a GG Governor General removed a PRIME MINISTER
Tipping point?.
Weekend is coming sport cricket test starts today.
New girl Friend/boy Friend have to clean the car politics?
Who cares man what is it any way.
But if tax goes up, lets riot.
See many Aussies know nothing of GG 11/11 and do not wish to.
How its done?
If I can be found, and I was here in OLO by one very bright poster America and every country who wanted too could do it.
TBC as a green you know you would be on file as I am.

Hey Belly, yeah on another very international site I spend a lot of time in chat mode with American and British soldiers sitting in deserts. They talk about the heat, strange bugs, you get a lot of slang for weapons and various things. Mostly in good spirits but at least now stuff has appeared online where they feel they might be believed – people didn’t really believe their stories before. But yep I’ve seen them track someone to their home address and phone number on the other side of the world.

I’ve also seen my computer taken over remotely, sat back and watched the mouse move and it connect to sites in front of me without me touching anything. Anyone really hiding would just do everything through someone elses machine anyway.

So in reality there is no tipping point? We wait for politicians to tell us if something is a big deal?

General opinion out in the world is that we’re all a bit simple down here. Julian is pretty much being portrayed as not your average Aussie bloke. But we weren’t viewed as woosy before and now I see talk from people all over the world who are saying we aren’t even trying to protect one of our own. From the yanks is an emerging opinion that we are all anti-american and taught to be in our schools. Not sure where they are getting it.

Does the below mean it is the British keeping him in jail and nothing to do with the Swedes? But then the Swedes appealed right?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/15/julian-assange-bail-decision-uk

Lawyers for Assange reacted to the news with shock and said CPS officials had told them this week it was Sweden which had asked them to ensure he was kept in prison.

Karin Rosander, director of communications for Sweden's prosecutor's office, told the Guardian: "The decision was made by the British prosecutor. I got it confirmed by the CPS this morning that the decision to appeal the granting of bail was entirely a matter for the CPS. The Swedish prosecutors are not entitled to make decisions within Britain. It is entirely up to the British authorities to handle it."

As a result, she said, Sweden will not be submitting any new evidence or arguments to the high court hearing tomorrow morning. "The Swedish authorities are not involved in these proceedings. We have not got a view at all on bail."

After the Swedish statement was put to the CPS, it confirmed that all decisions concerning the opposing of bail being granted to Assange had been taken by its lawyers. It said: "In all extradition cases, decisions on bail issues are always taken by the domestic prosecuting authority. It would not be practical for prosecutors in a foreign jurisdiction … to make such decisions."

jewely first in a thread I will no longer visit you ask about an advertisement.
Every such site runs adds,not cheap to provide a service like this.
Not going to be able to agree with that about Aussies being regarded as a bit dumb.
Could throw in a few lines get a laugh but not my style.
It is true however, that leadership in every country, many times in much more than government, hide the truth from us.
We are just dots in their Castles, remember once elected politicians some times forget we exist.
Julian is being held because the Swedish government says it wants him on sex charges, one charge infers a condom broke while consensual sex was in progress!

“Julian is being held because the Swedish government says it wants him on sex charges, one charge infers a condom broke while consensual sex was in progress!”

Hey I will admit that can give you one hell of a fright Belly but who knew the Swedes were so sensitive.

Simple not dumb – like we just cruise along living life with no major leanings towards anything. Actually they may have got that right on the whole.

Yeah the adverts... I get they pick up on key phrases in posts... not sure if the ones here do. But through the immigration thread was this “freerefugee” link I had a quick gander at. Just kind of amused me at the time but how come you wont go back?

The thing I couldn’t work out was we all thought the Swedes were the key in holding Julian in a British jail but now they are denying that they had anything to do with the bail issue and it was the British prosecutors call, then I saw it was the Swedes who appealed it when he did get bail.

And then facebook dude who was voted like number 10 with Time Mag readers gets the Time Person of the Year when Julian was top of the list. Why bother with the voting?

Why vote anywhere really.

Dude just died playing golf in a lightning storm. Hmm…

Jewely,

I came upon the Guardian's report also - then noticed you'd already posted it. This just keeps getting stranger. The Swedish authorities say they were not involved in the latest proceedings and that it was all down to the British Crown Prosecuting Service.

And, yes, I took note that Assange was way out in front for Time's person of the year...what happened there?

http://213.251.145.96/cable/2008/11/08STOCKHOLM748.html
"(S) As an alternative, Dr. Svensson asked the HSPD-6 team to inquire with Washington whether or not continued participation in the Visa Waiver Program was fundamentally contingent on signing a formal data sharing agreement or non-binding arrangement along the lines of the model shared with Sweden, or could the currently strong but informal arrangements satisfy DHS's requirements. More specifically, Faxborn and Waller suggested that Sweden's most problematic issue might be having access to the database, but in a brain-storming mode asked whether an arrangement could be reached that would formalize sharing of Swedish information on known and suspected terrorists, but STOCKHOLM 00000748 002.2 OF 002 would not/not include Sweden's access to the TSDB. The meeting concluded with promises for further consideration on both sides."

I got this sent to me Poriot saying it explained the Swedish court thing… I don’t get it.

He got bail.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/16/julian-assange-wikileaks

Yay! :)

He got bail and the ankle bracelet.
It appears Sweden has far different laws than Britain and that saw him out.
But why was he ever in?
The numbers are on his side, that is important America understands numbers.

Belly

In answer to your question, Assange has business contacts in Sweden and is there frequently.

See below:

"Media reports say Mr Assange was in Sweden last week to talk about his work and defend the decision by Wikileaks to publish the Afghan war logs. "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11047025

That you could've discovered this fact for yourself, isn't worth noting - sh&t I just did.

Try reading the following instead of asking ignorant questions:

http://www.businessinsider.com/blackboard/julian-assange

Jewely, on Thursday, 16 December 2010 at 8:45:43 PM posted:

"I got this sent to me Poriot saying it explained
the Swedish court thing… I don’t get it."

Jewely posted a link which would appear to be a link to one of the leaked classified US diplomatic cables attributed to WikiLeaks. This was followed by an excerpt, paragraph 6, from that purported cable.

What I am interested in knowing is as to whether the link AND the excerpt were sent together to Jewely, or whether Jewely has read the whole cable displaying in the link and made the excerpt herself. My reason for asking this is that, having read the entire cable myself from the link provided, there can now be seen to be seemingly much more concerning intimations of perhaps recently intended action by the US with respect to 'snatching' Assange, an Australian citizen lawfully present recently in Sweden, outside of the due process of Swedish law, and transporting him against his will into US jurisdiction.

Paragraph 5. of that purported cable says, in part,:

"The [Swedish] M[inistry] O[f] J[ustice] team expressed their appreciation for the flexibility of the U.S. side in regards to memorializing any agreement. They expressed a strong degree of satisfaction with current informal information sharing arrangements with the U.S., and wondered whether the putative advantages of an [US] H[omeland] S[ecurity] P[residential] D[irective]-6 agreement for Sweden would be offset by the risk that these existing informal channels, which cover a wide range of law enforcement and anti-terrorism cooperation, would be scrutinized more intensely by [the Swedish] Parliament and perhaps jeopardized. ... "

Paragraph 7. interestingly concludes:

"... In the longer term, while a changed political environment in Sweden might be more conducive to a formal agreement with the U.S., there is a very clear G[overnment O[f] S[weden] belief that Sweden is not likely to be a direct target for terrorists and therefore has little to gain from an HSPD-6 agreement."

On 11 December Sweden experienced its first terrorist attack.



TBC

I got “08sweden748” sent to me and told it explained the Swedish bail problem. I went and found the cable and read it, did not understand most of it. Paragraph 6 made some kind of sense to me as far as visa waivers being wanted. Being OLO I couldn’t post the whole cable.

Reading your post Forest it might have been the wrong paragraph. But that is the reason I put it here, hoping someone would explain it.

So this is Sweden wanting more official information from the US and the US saying they don’t need one and aren’t likely to get attacked then they do get attacked?

This makes Sweden willing to do anything to get together with the US for terrorist info?

Jewely,

A relatively quick perusal of the cable indicated to me that it seemed to be primarily concerned with Sweden continuing an "informal" data-sharing arrangement with the U.S. It's informal because a formal agreement would require presentation before the Swedish Parliament and, therefore, parliamentary and public scrutiny.
In the cable it said,:
"Meetings between the HSPD-6 terrorist screening information negotiation team and the Swedish MOJ and MFA reveal that the current Swedish political climate makes any formal screening information agreement highly difficult. Existing informal agreements are working well, according to Swedish official..."
And more: "The MOJ team expressed appreciation for the flexibility of the U.S in regards to moralising the agreement. they expressed a strong degree of satisfaction with current informal information sharing arrangements with the U.S."

It appears to suggest that the current "informal" arrangement is a way for Sweden and the U.S. to share intelligence data outside of the Swedish Government's scrutiny, regulation or restriction.

Correction - "moralising" should read "memorialising".

Continued

Thank you, Jewely, for answering my question as to who made the excerpt from the cable. You ask:

"So this is Sweden wanting more official
information from the US and the US saying
they don’t need one and aren’t likely to
get attacked then they do get attacked?"

Full marks for your desire to learn how this cable may shed light upon Assange's being sought by the Swedish courts, but you really must learn to slow down to a pace at which you can do your own thinking, and avoid conflating things. So where to begin?

"So this is Sweden wanting more official
information from the US ..."?

No. More likely it is about the US wanting an agreement with Sweden, among other things with respect to extradition of the like of the one the US has with the UK, whereby if the US asks for a Swedish citizen, or a citizen of any other country lawfully held in Sweden, to be extradited to the US, it gets that person no questions asked, no detail of charges, no rights, no hearing, no appeal. There may be being implied that the continuity of existing visa waiver rights for non-terrorist Swedes travelling to the US could be dependent upon reaching whatever sort of agreement a US Homeland Security Presidential Directive Agreement may be.

"... and the US saying they don’t need one ..."?

No. More likely that without a HSPD-6 style agreement being concluded the Terrorist Screening Database will remain a 'one-way street' in favour of US interests knowing all about Swedes, but Sweden not knowing what the US knows about Sweden's own citizens.

"and [the US saying Swedes] aren’t likely to
get attacked .... ?"

No. The Swedish government expressing the view to the US that it does not see a need to conclude a HSPD-6 style agreement because public opinion in Sweden would likely be against it AND the risk of terrorist attack is, in Swedish opinion, low.

"then they do get attacked?"

Bingo! And by a Swedish citizen doubtless on the TSDB!

Coincidence?

Johny Rotten Goodonya mate, love an honest man.
Now nothing should be ruled out.
Thanks Forrest for your insightful posts.
America has already in the past done worse than set up an idiot to kill himself.
I rule nothing out or in but remember this America has worms.

The AFP has not found any breaches of Australian law by Wikileaks.

Also, "Defence Minister, Stephen smith says that a Defence taskforce has found that cables about Iraq did not damage the national security interest."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/12/17/3096032.htm

Poirot, your thread has like a thousand others highlighted this sad case.
thanks
May I ask those who have contributed so far to threads about Wikileaks and its founder to read this mornings Australian?
This some times comic book some time brilliant news paper, massively over loaded with a poor quality under achieving Editor has delivered a gem today.
In a reference to a Wikileaks leak to the Sydney morning herald we are reminded just how foul a swimming pool Diplomacy is .
The story tells us we know a living person who is responsible for the MURDER of those Australian news men.
It tells us both Indonesia and Australia are going to do nothing, in the name of.
Diplomacy.
Indonesia still torturing civilians still murdering still denying truth is more important to us for its proposed help in terrorism and controlling boat people than truth honesty and that is that.
Without Wikileaks we would not know this,are we Ostrich's? are we better for saying we do not want to know.
NEVER!

Forrest and Jewely,

This article appears related to the cable discussed earlier..from a Swedish perspective.

http://www.thelocal.se/30654/20101206/

Forest: “… but you really must learn to slow down to a pace at which you can do your own thinking, and avoid conflating things.”

You’re really my husband aren’t you Forest… that is exactly what you said when I suggested Autism was being caused by US vaccinations as an American feminist plot to eventually create a population of non-socially functioning males.

And this all means Sweden will continue with their trying to extradite him next month?

In the meantime the US will try passing a new law to get him after he goes to Sweden?

Is that conflating again?

Poirot:”It appears to suggest that the current "informal" arrangement is a way for Sweden and the U.S. to share intelligence data outside of the Swedish Government's scrutiny, regulation or restriction.”
This isn’t the Swedish government doing it?

Thanks for the other article about the Swedish, everything that comes up looks like politics vs law to me. Am I right that constitutions are laws?

I saw The Australian article Belly… not even sure what they were trying to say about him. To me it looks like a few sour grapes are emerging.

Emu’s Belly. :)

Belly I found it... I know, I never mentioned I was actually looking for it. Ironic that it is called Stockholm syndrome.

I went googling the wrong thing first… I had heard about post slavery traumatic syndrome although had forgotten the name but it didn’t fit -only applying to African descendants I discovered.

This is what I think we suffer from in general – Stockholm syndrome affects roughly 27% of people in captive situations, 27% is a big number when you are talking the population of entire countries. So I figure we do the Ostrich thing naturally.

“In psychology, Stockholm syndrome is a term used to describe a paradoxical psychological phenomenon wherein hostages express adulation and have positive feelings towards their captors that appear irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, essentially mistaking a lack of abuse from their captors as an act of kindness.”

boy talk about a murky topic
http://wn.com/%5BLEAKSPIN%5D_Secret_US-Sweden_Terrorist_Surveillance_Arrangements

that link simply refuses to open

this seems interesting
http://www.thenhf.com/article.php?id=2307

i..suppose this quote..covers a broken con-dom

They claim their agenda is
to stamp our heath fraud?

Is it really?

Fraud is Now in the Eyes of the Beholder

The FDA tells us that the top priority of this collaboration is enforcement action on fraudulent weight loss products, especially those promoted on the internet.

The FDA plans to trample the rights of American citizens with their campaign. The FDA, Canada, and Mexico plan to define fraud in violation of United States law.

Their definition: ?The false, deceptive, or misleading promotion, advertisement, distribution, sale, possession for sale, or offering for sale of products or provision of services,

intended for human use, that are represented as being safe and/or effective to diagnose, prevent, cure, treat, or mitigate disease (or other conditions),

to rehabilitate patients

or to provide a beneficial effect on health.?

nope im just not seeing it

ok this must be it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCy-HItcBu0

funny my web link is on the blink
boy dont that just make ya think

so what...if not truth...just what have we be-got..[not]