First of all, we will miss TPP and all the great insights that most..... if not all, can meet a pull towards a better tomorrow. But that's not what this is for and well we might understand that much rides on us all working as one, which many will be undoubted with as much as we would like to continue with the what are we doing.

So man-kind should live with the duration of the common thought? and truth be dammed.

Is it time to look at ourselves?

I don't know.

Question.........What is truth?

BLU

BLUE.. "What is truth?" now you know who asked that question don't you?

Pontius Pilate when faced with Jesus.

What did Jesus say? (different occasion) "I am the way...the TRUTH..and the life"

So..there you have it :)

He happens to be the answer also to the corruption you bemoan.

ALGOREisRICH

Climate change corruption was the main target, and see how in your own realms of religious truth, one will find bad eggs as well. See...the human-race has become so accustom to gaining the almighty dollar, people have now no concept of retaining any type of reality concerning the definition of the word truth.

I believe we are excepting corruption as the norm and Iam wondering where this type of new belief is going to take mankind.

However Mr gore, since you have opened the door.........I'll start a little list on all that is tainted.

You will find Corruption......

In

Religion
Voting
Police
Law
Universities
Politics
Global warning
and if I keep going
I'll be at the bottem of the page.
So what messages are we sending
to the next generation?

role-models?

And this will be a short
thread I can tell:)

I think truth is just word
and as No-longer any meaning.

I could be wrong thou.

BLUE

Always ready with the carefully-selected sound-bite, aren't you Boaz.

>>"What is truth?" now you know who asked that question don't you?Pontius Pilate when faced with Jesus.<<

How did it go again?

"Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault" John 18:38 KJV

This would indicate a rhetorical question, would it not, as he didn't even bother to wait for an answer. It sounds very much to me like a throwaway line from someone who really can't be bothered. Anne Wroe, in her book "Pilate: the Biography of an Invented Man" points out that:

"A Roman governor, [modern scholars] point out, would not have wasted two minutes thinking about a shabby Jewish villain, one among many."

At least you didn't pretend that this was the shabby Jewish villain's actual response...

>>What did Jesus say? (different occasion) "I am the way...the TRUTH..and the life"<<

Well, they would have him saying that, wouldn't they? Without those sorts of carefully-selected sound-bites you wouldn't have a religion, would you.

Of course, if you were allowed to admit the Apocrypha into consideration, you might have alerted us to a different version of the conversation.

"Pilate saith unto him: What is truth? Jesus saith unto him: Truth is of heaven. Pilate saith: Is there not truth upon earth? Jesus saith unto Pilate: Thou seest how that they which speak the truth are judged of them that have authority upon earth." Nic III 2

It must be great having such a wide range of quotations to choose from. Handy for those occasions when you are determined not to think for yourself, in case you get into trouble.

The question for you, though, should surely be:

"Which one of these quotes is Truth"?

And the corollary, why did you choose that one?

King James Bible
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Perhaps a great description of climate change deniers wanting to retain dirty coal industries to maintain their lifestyles.

Very apt.

csteel

you seem happy to use a computer as well as other electrical items produced by 'dirty; coal. You sound a bit like Bono who flew 5 planes to Australia to run his concert. Nothing like a bit of self righteousness.

Deep-Blue, not sure where you’re going with this? When you say “you will find corruption in” and then list a few institutions as examples, and you’re right you could go over the page, you are right and you are identifying a single common thread, us.

Whatever we humans do and have done since records began, have been corrupted by us. This began long before the mighty dollar and it is not a recent phenomenon.

We consider ourselves to be intelligent but we neither demonstrate this, nor can we identify what we mean by it. We have tried every conceivable set of rules to curb our corruption yet we are no better today than we were 8,000 years ago. We have tried social, political, economic, religious and ecological rules, millions upon millions of rules and all have failed.

If we are to discuss “truth” then there is only one truth, we are all flawed and we can’t help it. We have still not abandoned the fanciful beliefs we have carried through from our medieval darkness, these include the belief in:-

-the divine right of egotistical kings
-the inferiority of women
-the idea that a wise State knows all
-the idea that the individual is always right
-the bitter-sweet addiction, that transforms a doctrine from a mere model into something sacred and worth killing for.

It is values such as these that define our species as superstitious primitives. We are not a benign species and we are definitely not intelligent. This is why, each and every human endeavor, entity and institution created by humans is corrupt.

That is reality and truth.

I find looking inwards is futile Deep-Blue. Protecting oneself or others against corruption is not feasible when the power to question or refute is currently in remission.

When honesty is silenced, abridged, or forced to become fraudulent there is no complete truth as the messenger is isolated and deceitful by compulsion.

Perhaps we could ask why corruption is used and whether for a particular gain or to lesson discord is acceptable to us. There could be arrogance or benevolence at the core in conjunction with authority and influence.

It probably does good to occasionally imagine what could be achieved with a magic wand as it may slow down the embrace of nihilism or even WikiLeaks.

Dear runner,

As I am under instruction to withdraw myself from you I suppose I am sinning in responding but I will beg forgiveness.

Did you really just accuse me of self righteousness? I am sorry my friend but to have that coming from you has really made my day. Thank you. Lol.

Spindoc,Lilith.

I guess looking inwards is a little pointless considering all the evidences against mankind. However that's leaves a moral dilemma. How can the future generations have a future, when all is nothing but a lie? EG The religious cults have being fool people for 1000's of years, knowing the false hope they sell is just another dishonest business. So again......if someone breaks the law........in the sence of financial gain, how can one be held responsible when the corruption in today's world is the norm.

Iam asking these questions since my son and I talked about corruption in sport just recently........and the under-the-table deals and so on......and he was wondering why should I follow the law.

I honestly didn't know what to say.

And I very much doubt anyone else would either.

I guess corruption is just a dirty word that know one talks about.

Arrr human nature.........is no wonder how some can predict our demise.

BLUE

We follow laws in society such as stopping when the light is red, society agrees with this law.

Other laws or what we see as corruption are challenged. No promises are made that you will be supported or that you will avoid being corrupted, isolated, or punished in some way while on this path.

We cannot each save the whales and the FIFA World Cup; we must all pick our own battles.

The corrupt system in place now supports all other corruptions and a loss is hardly a reflection that the truth was not fought for. The futile part is taking a loss onboard as a personal failure.

Many people are fighting whether it is feasible or not, predictable demise or not.

Your son, he could be the one that wins one for us. Hope usually backs Truth.

BLU/BLUE:LOL.. i didn't know u started a new thread, jeez i'm slow, weel too busy actually.
"What is truth?" how many people actually question that today, how many actually want a change. i reckon from what i know, it's a lot more then a few decades ago.
your response to AL was classic! hahaha
"I'll be at the bottem of the page." hahahaha.. too bad, you can't type that many letters mate.(i'm going to fall of my sitting place soon)
all the good role models got murdered, period.

i don't see why when u post quotes, it always only refers to 'men'. truth: what about the female species, so is it supposed to be men, men ,men, and hopefully one day there will be no more women. after that, you won't be able to reproduce. on the other hand, if there were no more men, with all the technology we have now, the WOMEN, will be able to. so men...u are not anymore superior then women. and that is that truth.

ya, keep thinking that the only way to solve all this is by getting rid of us humans, real smart..wow! the superior species in action.

howabout just stand up and fight for your own rights for once instead of letting everything/one control u.

Deep-Blue, nothing wrong with looking inwards, particularly if you really want to “see”.

I’m not sure that everything is a lie but it could be described as deceit, self deceit.

The problem has always been that we humans not only dislike what we see when we do look at ourselves, that self loathing becomes the motivation to “mitigate”. Most of societies’ “rules” are mitigation. It is not only religious rules that draw us away from the reality of who and what we are, although they do provide the best examples of shifting us away from reality. That shift from reality is where the problems start.

As I said in my first response, “each and every human endeavor, entity and institution created by humans is corrupt.” This is because it is the humans that corrupt it, we are the only common factor.

Just think of it this way, as with the example you quote of corruption in sport, every time a news item of human corruption hits the media we see precisely the same human reactions. Who did it? What rules did they break? How will we punish them? How do we prevent this happening again? (more rules), and finally the mitigation, the excuses, the reasons and the absolution. It is just madness.

So when you son asks the question “why should I follow the law?” this is not a question anyone else on the planet should answer, except him. I don’t know how old he is or how much parental influence you still hold, but basically, how he deals with it will be determined by the values he has adopted from his parents, social, economic and if any, religious conditioning. Like the rest of us, he is what he is.

Until and unless we humans can avoid being influenced by those things that distort reality, we cannot progress as a species. As discussed on OLO recently, those things include fear, uncertainty, doubt, dogma, paranoia, theology, ideology, fantasies, obsessions, pixies, fairies and aliens, just to mention a few.

Good luck BLUE.

The only answer to the question you could give is the most important and in fact the most obvious- Not complicated , but simple , once people understand;
The only law is the strong natural law of Moral and ethical laws – so endowed at birth and every persons gift to reason.
Any other law is what is called Political – That ought to be obvious – enter the subtracted equation of Altruism from the Political Law , gives you the answer.
The Systematic predation and confiscation of individual rights and property; for it to be a state of Mendicancy and State created social dysfunctionallity to justify itself.
The Political Means.

Just as there are only two ways to wealth –One is by Economic s and Freedom to trade – and the other is the Political Means ; Robbery – coercion- compulsion- so Remove Altruism , can you see the problem now?

Thats why they Lie , and the intention of lies is to deceive , by Con men.

Sorry All, but IMHO that was a right load of disconnected, confusing, mixed up, unmitigated, gobbledygook!

What did you do? Randomly select words from a thesaurus and see how many you could make sentences out of?

C’mon, you can explain yourself better than that, if you can’t, don’t go pu

Sorry All, that last word was “public”

If you wish to ask me what parts of it you do not understand Spindoc, be more specific; But I assume you understand nothing of it ; Says more about you ;- It is very simple to understand – simple and to the point; what does that say about you ?

Get off your own back side and do some studying yourself. It is not in little golden books Spindoc. You will need to read some harder books than that.
But if you are at least half serious, but questionably due to your rudeness , I doubt that you are. And I thought you at least had half a brain.
So on that note I would say Get stuffed. heheh
Anyone else I will help.

All, I am hearing (reading) you have a faith in a person’s own moral character and ability to reason.

Then you went on to say administrations of varying forms corrupt this character and create a population of beggars and then justify this by taking away self sacrifice from law.

I second Spindocs motion to declare it gobbledygook.

good on you, at least you are one up on spindoc or are you ;The Homer Simpsons Academics

I misjudged what your reaction might be All.

Expecting you would respond with an explanation of what you had originally said or at the very least tell me where and if I had read you wrong.

Please do not take it onboard, my expectations of others are commonly placed rather too high.

Well here's a few I found which includes some on the list. The thread its self is the point.....and how we just accept it as the norm.

So fear of the word, is in fact who you are..............interesting.

I do enjoy watching the three stooges, however comedy was never one of my strong points:)

http://tinyurl.com/2a6zf6q .......now this person calls it as it is, and seems to have more guts exposing it than some olo members.

http://tinyurl.com/34n8bw2 .........What great role-models we Australian are...........and since some people here like to throw off...one wonders just how deep it goes. ( I did say this thread would be short:)
See you just have to say the word CORRUPTION and watch the people cringe. By profiling contents, one can understand when to duck.

Anyway............thanks for your inputs.

BLUE

Check this guy out Blue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0GQUtYkxfY&feature=share

Or a goodbye from an OLO user who has been fighting govt for years.

...what now will be....Will be
I have no fight left...
I will be offline by the end of the week….I will soon be forgotten
I wish you and yours the very best for Christmas…may only good things come your way.
November 21 at 1:53pm

Truth is Blue you don’t really know who here is fighting corruption.

You did not misjudge me at all , clearly you have misjudged yourself ; If you are supposedly anti Government , then it would be appropriate to actually know what it is that you are opposed to– I see nothing to indicate that in the slightest , other than the rhetoric so used by the Ruling elites to which you are supposedly a dissenter .
Now the passive submission and to expound philosophies of events as if they are preordained ; Absolute crap. That sounds like The State talking . People make things happen , always have and always will ; Individual people , so change the way you communicate it and the younger generations listen – and will change it.
Its called Human Action. Not passive submission.

Hello All.

Interesting that you make it sound so easy or believe it is simple. But I’m unsure if you are saying that “the power of one” is all it takes or that if we keep saying something maybe the next generation will believe us.

I am opposed to government being weak; I am opposed to outside groups that shout the loudest and the longest who make use of media and other influences to dominate government. This is corruption I believe.

Passive does not describe me, I am helping Piper although we both believe she has already personally lost against government because she was silenced the moment it was decided she should be.

Submission whether passive or otherwise is still submission while the next generation was the one at the root of her concerns as were David’s.

A country that can stop you from speaking online and you believe in Human Action here?

Government does not have any money of its own , nor any power to speak of – unless it steals and robs people of it – and the State power can only be taken if social power is granted – That is the problem – it never was granted power , The State automatically wrote off your rights , Just because they speak of things in the rhetorical nonsense for its predatory terms ,the commission of property or individual right crimes in the name of an Altruist terminology does not change the fact , it is a crime – Robbery is robbery , Murder is Murder- Enslavement is enslavement - they systematically engage in Crime; It does not matter what they call it , and the term Political certainly has never represented the people at any level. Only robbed and murdered them as if it is anyone’s free will for them to do so.

They excerpt power by purchase in the west, unlike any other despotic regime, our despots steal your wealth to purchase someone else’s loyalty, Occupation by purchase if you like, all the others were in fact a military coup, and not as it is falsely reported as a REVOLUTION, So we the People are under enemy occupation – like the feudal lord era to simplify it, just after the conquering army remains to enslave the natives to rob them of their production- That has to sound familiar with a few different parameters.

The Theory of government is somewhat different than the factual reality of it, and that is any government.

The Theory and that of Ideas must yield to Facts- That is what has been removed.

And yes it will be the inevitable change , Just look at the eastern bloc nations and the rapid rate they are DE –SOCIALING , They know , we have had the taste of freedom and LIBERTY , unlike any other in past history , and we want it back.

And they carp on about North Korea ;;; Fairdinkum.

I must also add the nature of your argument is somewhat Oxymoronic ; Pipper is an Individual – as You are an individual as is everyone are individuals, with varying levels of comprehension and abilities ; to assume that the Punie Individual cannot challenge the power of the state or change anything of it.

Wrong

Pipper as an Individual had represented what most of the population saw was the bleeding obvious; by her own ACTION had caused the STATE and its Minions- Oligarchs and Utilities to a state of War, and mobilised it to counter the threat ;( Guess what they were frightened of)
And so Your Government had entered into a tactic not ever seen before, not even the most hardened Despotic communist Nation has ever done.

Total violation of here Supposed Common law rights – Obliterated- Supposed constitutional Rights – Obliterated then of course even the Basic of basic Human Rights – Obliterated; And did we ever hear any of these Useless Idiot Bozo ik Bouncing Barristers who proclaim to represent Human rights enter into the arena ? NO

Well if Your State can do that without even hitting a speed bump, then Write laws to suit its purpose Fabricate its evidence , appoint A State Judge who will willingly Serve the States beckoning ,; then by falsehood kidnap her and incarcerate her, Sexually harass, and totally physically violet and demoralise her under false pretences – The why not any one of us, or how many other have been kidnapped and violated by the state, and who have no public profile.

So, do you think it cannot happen ?

An individual had put in the public light on what Order and predatory Monopoly of What and is Government ; So why am I telling you how it works?
Why are you not telling Us how it works?

Do people accept corruption? I don't think they do in the main, many just feel impotent at confronting those who hold power in various settings whether it be large corporates or governments. These are overwhelming odds.

There are many public servants who have raised issues through internal processes that don't reach the public domain (or the media) with the protection of whistleblowing legislation. Not everyone does an Andrew Wilkie, whom I strongly support for his actions. Wilkie's observations would have, no doubt, been whitewashed and ignored through internal processes - as many are.

It is a reality that whistleblowers are on the outer even with this process in place and are viewed suspiciously from the outset until further evidence or information comes to light. The term vexatious gets tossed around a lot during complaint handling processes. Which assumes that a 'vexed' person might not be legitimate despite a natural level of vexation when legitimate concerns are ignored or unethical practices are stronger and widespread than the willingness to reform from within.

Sites like Wikileaks are a refreshing contrast to the culture of secrecy within some spheres of government particularly when it comes to national security (or the hype that goes with it), international relations and business interests in the form of lobbying.

The YouTube link Lilith provided, was very revealing and it is frustrating to see that some journalists continue to twist Galloway's words to suit their own warped perceptions such as in the link below. Some of the comments highlight the lack of journalistic integrity. It seems if you are against the war you MUST by interpretation be a Saddam supporter and for the invasion of Kuwait. More dishonest reporting from the land of the 'free' who actually left Saddam in power after Kuwait, despite his shortcomings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgZbzfP7JIs&feature=related

All:” Why are you not telling Us how it works?”

How what works?

Pelican:”The term vexatious gets tossed around a lot during complaint handling processes. Which assumes that a 'vexed' person might not be legitimate despite a natural level of vexation when legitimate concerns are ignored or unethical practices are stronger and widespread than the willingness to reform from within.”

Or suggesting the person is not mentally stable. A strategy of discrediting seems the first implemented. George must be use to his words being taken out of context and twisted and that reporter telling him to relax is typical. The public seems to fall for it though… or is that unfair of me?

Julian Paul Assange:"the more secretive or unjust an organisation is, the more leaks induce fear and paranoia in its leadership and planning coterie. ... Since unjust systems, by their nature induce opponents, and in many places barely have the upper hand, mass leaking leaves them exquisitely vulnerable to those who seek to replace them with more open forms of governance."

Pelican.

Yes there's a particular brand of under-handedness which just about all humans are tempted by the fate of their own actions. ($$$$$$$) There are some people I would tell to go to hell......but think there already there. See...in my view, the world is just another play-ground for what the bullies call truth and justice........and you only have to be an individual to see it.

"it is frustrating to see that some journalists continue to twist Galloway's words to suit their own warped perceptions such as in the link below. Some of the comments highlight the lack of journalistic integrity. It seems if you are against the war you MUST by interpretation be a Saddam supporter"

Yes human-nature is something else,isn't it...........the amount of people that are so full of crap or hypocrites being the better word,that never judge them-selves as doing any-thing wrong. I myself admire Galloway's fortitude for the truth.........and as the great Australian saying goes.............trying to keep the bastards honest! and I can see why this is so important.

Ostriches tend to do the same thing..........for the purposes of pretending whats happening around them just doesn't exist.

Maybe most members are right..............there's No place for truth on this earth any more.........again... what a sad species we have become.

I see fools where ever I go, and the fakeness of the average person is so clear...........lying, cheating, stealing form one's own kind......can only point to one thing.....human-beings can never be trusted in any way, shape or form...........WOW........What a world:)

Oh by the way........the youth can see right through it....hence why there questioning the meaning of life on this planet.

Humans are sending their own children to hell, for the price of the almighty dollar. Well done! Give all you corrupt people in this world a pat on the back.

The proof is in the pudding.

BLU

Julian Assange is a revolutionary in the best tradition of revolutionaries.

Referring to the latest cables to be released he says:
" The cables show the U.S. spying on its allies and the U.N. turning a blind eye on corruption and human rights abuse in "client" states, backroom deals with supposedly neutral countries, and lobbying for U.S's. corporations...This document release reveals the contradictions between the U.S.'s public persona and what it says behind closed doors - and shows that if citizens in a democracy want their governments to reflect their wishes, they should ask to see what's going on behind the scenes."

So much for our faux democracies. I wonder how long it will take for those in "power" to shut down the messenger...and how idly the rest of us will stand by and watch it happen?

I spent some time yesterday reading about Mr Assange. Trying to work out what he was about before I thought too much about the whole wikileaks concept/action or whatever it is.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/41736.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/12/03/3084384.htm

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/australia-to-help-us-over-assange-20101204-18k3w.html

http://www.lawyersweekly.com.au/blogs/top_stories/archive/2010/12/01/legal-basis-for-charging-assange-shaky.aspx

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-on-a-knife-edge/story-e6frfhqf-1225965449505

Good on "the Australian anarchist".

Wouldn't it be fascinating if Wikileaks could hack into Chinese or Russian government emails, or into the messages going back and forth between al-Qai'da and its 'loose affiliates' ? Apart from some of the Saudis, who is funding them, I wonder ?

If Assange could arrange that, then yes, he would be doing all of us a service, in my eyes.

Loudmouth............so your quite happy to accept that if he work for the right side....that's makes it all better. May as well save the taxman an undue exspence and just have him shot as spy.

Jewely. You,ve got me thinking.............what if whistle-blowing has the opposite effect to the frame work of our society? When is the right time to call in the truth?.......and loved the cartoon by the way:) it does illustrate the hidden factors quite well....and why they have gotten so defensive.

BLUE

What is happening now seems to be more like the mother of all whistle blows, not easily manageable in the normal scope of spin doctors I guess. Bad things could happen but I don’t know about blaming the messenger.

Be nice to get to a point where all business everywhere was transparent.

Lilith:”Perhaps we could ask why corruption is used and whether for a particular gain or to lesson discord is acceptable to us. There could be arrogance or benevolence at the core in conjunction with authority and influence.

Tricky one… are we not told for our own good or is that arrogance no matter which way it lands?

Aussie would be interesting enough for me Loudmouth. I see govts getting their responses ready for what they think might be leaked. That's pretty interesting.

Deep-Blue,

Sorry, I lost this thread somehow.

No, I would be happy if the Wikileaks were coming from all sides.

And I don't think he should be shot as a spy as you suggest - give him a fair trial first, then shoot him.

Sorry, old Marxist joke: Groucho Marx.

What is intriguing me so far is how little the leaks reveal: I expected the Yanks to be far more devious, Machiavellian, bullying - you know, manipulating their puppets according to Conspiracy Theory I? But no, not yet.

Hmmmmmm .... I wonder if ..... no, it couldn't be ....... if the Yanks are manipulating Assange to release only the most innocent emails .... if he is actually working for them ? Devilishly clever !

And of course who is behind the Yanks ? Isn't it obviously the Swedes ? This whole arrest-rape thing is just a way to bring him in for de-briefing - it's all part of the game !

B@stards !

Joe

Joe...its all about the balance....as in our past conversations.

A change is not all about what we see.......its mostly about what we don't see.

One of the great Australian sayings was.......keep the bastards honest!....now you tell me why this doesn't or shouldn't apply today?

BLUE

And by the that didn't post.......we see for what you are and hold greatly......and that's not much:) Religion said....for those that can not be honest....just walk away....cause your of no value.

BLUE