First I am a supporter of our police.
But not unconditionally.
And not blindly.
Taser deaths surely remind us some are not up to the standard we want.
In my former roll working for the dysfunctional NSW roads authority, I saw police flog a car thief by the road side, a very real bashing and for? hiding in the bush.
We know this tool is needed ,was introduced to stop lethal confrontation but now it is killing.
The death in custody of a man who had mental health issues not once but twice tasered.
The NSW minister telling us his personnel got it right.
Tell me, how do the British police do so much better?

Having never been in a 'drunken brawl', or committed a 'serious crime',resulting in incarceration,or, having never threatened the police for that matter, I have never been ta-sered.

Perhaps there in lies the answer!

Perhaps there in lies the answer!
rehctub,
you mean getting punished for doing the wrong thing ? C'mon, what's the world coming to ?
I have spoken many times with police & they're all frustrated at the Magistrates letting the mongrels off lightly yet severely hammer some driver whose tail light has a crack. Those who really got stuck into the bloke obviously weren't police. My guess is they were cops. I once (as JP) remanded a young bloke in custody for smashing up a supermarket & causing severe damage & disruption. Of course I was overruled by a do-gooder legal aid moron. The poor police were nearly in tears from frustration.

rehctub, "Having never been in a 'drunken brawl', or committed a 'serious crime',resulting in incarceration,or, having never threatened the police for that matter, I have never been ta-sered."

Who says you have to have been involved in any of that or have committed any crimes to be zapped?

Man Tasered 13 times by WA police.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2010/10/04/3029218.htm

There is the problem, police can use the Taser to punish and coerce, presumably because he didn't comply in a flash with what was demanded. He may not have even comprehended the direction, or he could have been reluctant to drop all of his clothes for a strip search in an open office area. Who knows, but all of the police involved in this disgusting debacle should be told to walk. It looked like the usual entertainment the way the police milled for a gawk and knowing that two of them could easily have handled the slight wreck of humanity that was being abused.

Tasers are a useful crime stopping tool. But if you're a police officer, and someone is behaving irrationally, which is easier..

a) Use taser
b) Talk them down and defuse situation.

It's a good way to deal with the mentally ill. Much safer for the police to taser first and ask questions later. It's an OH&S issue.

Bzzzz.. What's that? you just wanted to ask for directions?. Bzzz. oh sorry, I cant hear you down there.

Having tasered a man 98 times, in 2009, or some outrageous number, and been caught out by the media for doing so, the Qld Police learned their lesson.

The next opportunity they shot a man, twice I think, because they knew he had a heart condition and didn't want to run the risk of killing him with a taser blast.

Who says you can't teach old dogs new tricks, eh?

Who doubts we live in The Smart State?

cant/you..feel[see]..
your/being intimidated

indoctrinated..into instant/mindles-compliance

mearly..the seeing of/a taser..
you will fear dying..[if they chos/to..use it..on you]

there is..a severe..law...of coersion..with threats and menices

there is no excuse for threat/nor menace..for those/
needing to/be seen..FOLLOWING THE-LETTER/OF THE..LAW
[cleaner/than/clean...lol]

to judge-others..YOU/MUST_BE..cleaner/than clean

[yet even..the police-commisioner..[qld]
recognises..two/percent of his..mighty-policing-policy/force..
are corrupt]...lets not/mention the..victorian..or gold-coast/policers

but the thing-is..here/are thugs
[claiming to serve justice]..yet feeling..confortable..with murder...[in company]

we have a 2 YEAR_OLD..vidio..
having been suppressed..for..TWO YEARS...how-come?

[who decided to keep the secret...
[a fellow..conspiritor?]

the letter -of/the law says..
they are equally-guilty
[accesory..after/the..fact]

policers..are very good/at..finding/charges for others
gaining confessions...by coersion/threat..
now they got yet..another tool...they-know..they can/use

shooting victims..in a police-station...was too obvious
for a start..guns need be handed-over..
stored in the gun locker..but seemingly..the tasers..dont

here we/see..the boys-own/club..using their latest/toy
a toy..that has so/far killed..hundreds/globally

not just once..or by accident..
but by..deliberated mob-intent..

to force-others..into compliance

to whom/much is given
much is to be expected

certainly not footballer/type..
omnipotant/adrenolin-based..ego

the judges..often say..to criminals
i must make/an egsample..of you
[and give you..jail-time]

but here-are..these thugs/claiming to serve/protect..
abusing their..commision..to serve...lol....justice

and worse/those watching..the watchers..colluding to cover...crime..over with/excuses and media pandering

lets bring-back the run-corpse
at least we knew..they served/their own adgenda..from the get-go

this stains...many..good and true
who soon/realise the rotted corpse..they are serving..and leave

[go look at the drop-out/rate

the good/true..that sign-up to serve
but soon leave..when they/see..
what/they-are..called to ser-vice

if its not..revenue/raising..by threat/force
its kicking home-owners from/their homes
protecting the elites..
while criminaling..poverty

bah...show me..a good-cop
and i will show you..one/
who does his duty..[and thats all]

not these..8/4..process-policy/policing..servers..
thinking policing is a 9/5 job
policing..road-rules...traffic-laws..

not the real-crime...like we/see...when the pubs/close
or our homes/..cars are stolen
or we are defrauded..via the web/bankers
or ripped of as a con-sumer

[or those poluting our airs/waters/minds
or charging..the earth..for basic service's

[and while..they/are sleeping]..

[..and the..while hospital-staff..are still labouring/..
in their true..higher-ideal/..calling..[service]

electocution..isnt what..we signed/up..for
thugs with guns...
now make their/point..with threat-of...electro-cute-ion

how/cute..boys

The taser is just another tool which can be used, on the scale of things its probably somewhere between the baton and the gun.
It would have been better to have used a taser, that day at Bondi when they shot that French looney, but since they were all out of it on cocaine they shouldnt be blamed for emptying a few clips into the chap.

The fact is, police work is mostly raising revenue through traffic fines. Consequently, violent crimes and theft are generally ignored. Lets face it, would you prefer sitting in an air conditioned van watching a revenue camera, or out dealing with drunk and abusive people...? They're only human after all, and so why do we think they are on some holy mission?

"They're only human after all, and so why do we think they are on some holy mission?"

It is simple, just comply with available policy, that is all.

Those who breach the guidelines are criminals themselves, an embarrassment to the force and bring the majority into disrepute. They should be investigated, charged and shunted out ASAP.

When tasers were introduced the "authorities" stated that they would be a replacement for pulling out a gun and killing people.
As I said at the time they would soon be being used at times where if the cop pulled his gun and shot someone they would be charged with murder. They were never a replacement for guns and were always going to be used to torture and force compliance.
Glorified bloody cattle prods for the sheeple.

How long before the crims get hold of them(or make their own, its extremely easy)and start using them in robberies or muggings?

They should only be allowed to be used in the same circumstances where pulling their guns and shooting someone is justified.
If they are going to have tasers they must be made to account for every time they use it the same as they would have to if they used their guns.

I AM experienced at dealing with the mentally ill…that’s what I do. And don’t have the luxury of the use of weapons like tasers, guns, batons or even cuffs or cells. So it comes down to personal presence and ability to cope with physically aggressive and potentially violent situations. The luxury I DO have is that my “back-up” is immediate and nearby, whereas the police travel in pairs, and two is only enough to get into trouble, not get out of it, and back-up is minutes away. A lot can happen in a few minutes.

You may think I have the luxury of drugs, but they take 20 minutes or more to work, if they work the first time. And even then, they will resist, so you are still in a physical confrontation of getting the needle into them, and having to restrain them. Two is not enough for the average sized person, to restrain so that no-one gets hurt. You need at least 4, preferably 5, and if they are bigger and stronger then about 6 to restrain someone unco-operative and violently aggressive, but no-one gets injured. I once looked after a guy that would not be escorted anywhere with less than 12 men. Damn, he was strong!

So the police have weapons and radios for back-up, but as I said, a few minutes waiting for back-up can change your life or end it. It’s easy to judge from our lounges, but when it is YOU that is confronted by someone brandishing a weapon and threatening you, and you are charged with protecting the community, then you are immediately in a Catch-22 situation of dammed if you do, and dammed if you don’t.

TBC...

Also, with PC, you’re not allowed to initiate physical contact. But if someone is brandishing a weapon, to wait to respond, is to wait for them to use the weapon, in which case, it’s too late!! To disarm someone that will not freely relinquish their weapon, you must initiate physical contact to disarm them. But the law basically prohibits that, for now you are perceived as the aggressor by the unwitting observer. Of course, it depends upon the sort of weapon, person brandishing it, and situation, whether you would even attempt to disarm them, but the point being, there are circumstances where it is very appropriate, but to do so, you must be the initiator, not the respondent.

You never know how you will respond to the sense of your own life being in danger, until it is you in that situation. Heaven forbid that you should feel the responsibility of your job and duty at the same time to further intensify and complicate the situation with its added responsibilities. It’s a tough gig.

What we should have on police are high quality video camera's recording from the time any incident starts until it's conclusion.

There was a proposal (and a limited rollout I think) to fit camera's to the tasers themselves which are activated when the taser is drawn but that does misses so much (all the lead up to an incident).

There will always be some dispute over the need for the use of such tools, what should never be in dispute is what actually occurred.

R0bert

If a bloke was tasered 13 times he must have needed it. They wouldn't do that for no reason. Nowing all of this was on camera.
Give the police the ok until they are found otherwise.

Anyone here been in a position where you had to make choices about which means to stop an offender?.

Anyone here come up against someone on steroids, various drugs, alcohol, mental illness on all three?.

No?, didn't think so.

Exactly Stg. It's a hard job, and it's human nature to use the easier alternative. Zap em! Ask questions later. That's what any sane person would do. It's just a job.

The tool is there to use. People who don't want the tool available are in favour of protecting the mentally ill from possible death or unfair usage at the expense of injured police. Those happy with the tool want the reverse.

The problem lies with human emotion. People are irrational, they make wrong decisions in the heat of the moment, they can be a-holes whether they are authority figures or not.
To expect police, the PEOPLE on the front line copping abuse and being attacked to act calmly and not slip up in every instance is ignorant.

With authority comes ego, pride, fear, pressure, name it, maybe additional screening and/or training before making the police force is necessary if people don't want incidents like this to occur.
I would also suggest a form of surveillance to be considered to stop police acting outside of what is expected of them.

Why don't people highlight the good the cops do?. The alternative to the taser and spray is shooting them.

Anyone here want to tackle a 120 kilo 6 foot something angry drunk, or someone on ice?. Should they go in and wrestle someone for a machete or syringe?. Would anyone volunteer for that?. With the amount of violence the police deal with every day it amazes me there isn't more unfortunate deaths.

If you're anti-police, don't call them when you're in trouble. Try talking someone down yourself, see how you go.

It's easier to focus on the negative, it's their job to stand on the line of duty and justice but anything that is negative is headline media.

I do think cops need more publicity for their bravery and good acts, but a lot of people I know think that it's what they get paid to do, so they should just do it.

Youth (generally speaking) see police as the enemy, the fun police and they can go f em selves. But they are the first to call the 'fun police' when they're worried because their neighbors domestic violence is leaking onto their front yard.

Or when someone is hit by an inflatable beach ball at the cricket.

having small young females on the beat is a pretty dumb idea especially when being confronted by drug filled criminals. How else do you think they are going to be able to apprehend armed people?

StG, "Anyone here want to tackle a 120 kilo 6 foot something angry drunk, or someone on ice?. Should they go in and wrestle someone for a machete or syringe?."

Have a look at the ABC video I attached showing police tasering a fellow 13 times. No evidence whatsoever of a struggle, just someone who hasn't dropped all of his clothes quickly enough for a strip search in an open office where, as is obvious, many police walk through including women police. Some men are embarrassed by public nudity and some men are slow thinking and might not leat to action in a split second as this fellow is being required to do.

However it is obvious that they are not waiting before zapping him too.

Again, you don't have to have committed any offence to find yourself in a police station. It can and does happen commonly to naive, vulnerable teens, or the homeless, for instance.

R0bert, "What we should have on police are high quality video camera's recording from the time any incident starts until it's conclusion."

While I agree with that, there is also the need for other, robust controls against misuse - which is assault and sometimes occasioning actual bodily harm from falls, for example. Misuse is a serious offence, bringing all police into disrepute. Offending police would choose their marks, environment and timing. But where all are in on the joke, say in a suburban station, why not have fun with a perceived lower life form, like a Goth dressed kid who was foolish enough to think he had rights?

The greater body of honest, upright police are revulsed by excessive force and corruption, which affects recruitment and contributes to wastage.

Yeah, let's jeopardise the welfare of ALL our police officers for the actions of a few. Genius.

StG, "Yeah, let's jeopardise the welfare of ALL our police officers for the actions of a few. Genius."

What, by not letting the few ratbags get away with exceeding the authority they are given? How does that put police at risk? If you go to the ABC video of the WA police in action, precisely where is there any evidence that the victim presented any risk to the police at all? A small bag had already been taken from him without any objection at all. He was limp and groggy, big deal.

STG has it right! Without the men and woman of law and the hard work with putting their life's on the line... for all I might add, I couldn't do it, I don't have the guts.

Personalty, I'd rather be tasered than shot.

Look! They know what to do.

Go through the training they do?

I truss them above all.

But that's just my opinion.

TT

Cornflower. Would you rather they just use batons and guns?.

AH humanity, lets fry them on the footpath.
Police never get it wrong,innocents never get arrested.
We have never hanged the wrong man fry them.
Note the Christian love from a few, the burn them baby burn from our unthinking red necks.
Fact is 13 times and mentally ill, so burn the silly beggar?
And if the world looks at us?
A man died in prison transport cooked alive,, two deaths in a week from Tasers, can we blame any country any at all, for their laws.
That young car thief in my first post, he was flogged by a feral.
It happens, cultures exist in some forces that fail to remember criminals are not meant to die in custody.
Police are not required to execute car thieves mentally ill and rowdy fools.
Is there any chance STG any at all, the world is a better place because you did not go ahead and join the police?

Of course police need tasers. Sometimes words needs to be backed up.

However the tasers are for self defence, not for punishment. The second issue is where the police are aggressive and can't understand why people are aggressive back. Watching that incident on Bondi Beach, I wanted to stab them myself. You just don't talk to people like that.

Tasers have a place in confrontation and were introduced to avoid needless shootings.

There are policies that govern the use of tasers and most reasonable would agree in real life situations police may need to use tasers in self defence or in defending others.

This does not mean police should not be accountable should tasers be misused. The incident that was caught on camera clearly showed the detainee was down on the floor, continuing with the taser was completely unnecessary.

Police do have a difficult job and we should be supportive but we are not being supportive when good police are tainted by the actions of a few without having to face some sort of disciplinary action.

We are not a police state. The police work diligently on behalf of citizens not against them. Human error will always occur; it is how we respond that will define the integrity of our law enforcement bodies.

Yeah nice, Belly. Well done. I didn't go ahead with it because I knew I'd struggle with the child abuse aspect....in part.

But thanks, for insinuating I'm sorta of potential torturer sicko. I'd tell you to go ... yourself, but of course, I'LL get banned and you that damns my integrity gets away with it. Cheers. Last time I talk to you.

Thats ok STG.
You never ever spoke to me, only at me.
Tasers are not for self defense.
In fact they are an attempt to help police control those who other wise would need to be shot.
And they are failing, some not all police have over used them, deaths too many, are taking place.
Now no need exists to get down on our knees and grovel, but police are in fact much needed and respected people.
most of them.
During high profile easter week traffic campaigns again and again Sydney police are stunned by the warmth they get from local community's.
EVERY job has its problem children, tasered 13 times? and a mental health case? no please.
Big tough men once wore the uniform, they could control a charging bull, please do not forget not one of these recent deaths involved an armed suspect.
I stand by my comment.

I discussed this issue with a workmate today. He is an ex policeman & he told me that at times, if someone is totally smackered it actually does take several zaps before they start to react to a taser. The response to tasers apparently varies from individual to individual although I don't like to refer to morons as individual in general. Because that's what most recipients of a taser zap are.

StG, "Cornflower. Would you rather they just use batons and guns?."

What is needed is for those who refuse to comply with the policy for use of force, regardless of category, to be shunted out of the police force ASAP. Similarly, the police force is no place for someone who takes bribes. The code of conduct is there for the good of the police force, to get results, not just to please critics.

If the police are casual about obeying laws and regulations themselves, the public confidence on which good law enforcement depends, is soon lost.

I spoke in my first post about my support for the police.
I did not mention my uncle once a detective Sargent.
We have managed to over look one of these deaths was while in custody, another on his door step.
I do not disagree with the use of Tasers, even those guns used to drug animals may be of use.
I think over use of a tool bought in to being for extremes is wrong.
Putting a halo on the head of every police officer is unrealistic.
My football mates often police, those who put their hand on my shoulder behind a truck as the death scene got too much for me, those I put my hands on as they suffered that way.
They without shame, talk of needless bashing and cruelty from some in the thin blue line.
Ideas that those tasered are, well read the last few posts, are just exactly why some police, who hold similar views, are the problem.

Yesterdays print media reported on a police officer who has been charged with 3 brutal bashings.
Each was of a prisoner in his custody.
It was said [but may not be true] his training included a police teacher saying, [surely if it happened in jest?] *if you think about spraying poison over the public its time to change jobs*
Now he is said to have told his workmates he is past that, wanted to spray the public with Napalm.
Not no most police, not many, but some, clearly like every single job in the world,are in the wrong job.
Now just maybe some Taser use has been miss use and a crime, Police ,good ones are worth more than we can pay them.
We however do not pay them to kill or torture.

The problem with tasers is simple - it removes the need for strong and defensible appraisal of a situation and replaces it with a "shoot first, ask questions later" model.

That model is all the vogue in Australian bureaucracies these days.

I think every miss use of Tasers has been by men.
And have nothing against female police.
But are Tasers needed more by smaller framed women police?
Meant to help save lives police and arrested people it has often killed worldwide.

Spot on Antiseptic. And to add too that, excessive power breeds excess.

Despite any personal conflicts between StG and Belly, the problem is that tasers are an instrument of torture.
If you don't like an offender for example just taser and revive, continue for your personal vengeance.

Despite all the nonsense I've heard today on this subject and I will state that I have experienced threats involving survival and survived,
that these situations are resolved by being more aggressive than the offender. That is the fact.

But having said that, after having disabled a threat, there is no excuse for continuing to inflict pain or suffering,
unless you are criminal or sociopathic perhaps, because the aggressor then becomes the victim.

In the appalling case in Qld on video evidence, the police officers involved in this torturous treatment of a captive offender should be prosecuted to the the full extent of the law. Such behaviour should be clearly defined in the mind of every police officer as criminal.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/18/2601290.htm

The link involves another Qld police taser related incident involving the death of the offender.

And finally Rehctub I say to you without equivocation. Get a life !.

Sorry but I see no fault in the way STG and I cross swords.
Fact is we are both a bit prickly, and have never been in to verbally hugging one another, our views differ.
But in starting the thread posting in it, I never lost sight of both police right to go home safe and prisoners right too.
No prisoners are not always nice, I think some form of restraint is needed, even that Tasers may be it.
Well are in fact it, just now media has storys about capsicum spray used on children, one a girl.
We often challenge the police for being just what we want them to be, but are some over using Tasers?
Yes, are some too quick to forget the spitting thing in front of them is human? yep.
I support our police, actively often, but every now and again a story reminds us a few are not in the right job.
CORNY? maybe but let me tell you a good cop is worth much more than we pay him/her a bad one betrays his uniform.