Silly young kid unaware he was going to kill by his actions?
Maybe but should he die for it?
His mum and dad dobed him in, to our federal police.
Who gave him up to Indonesia.
This country, ours knows fortunes are being made here and we can not make an effort to stop it.
Business men fund it police make cash out of it and we let another country kill our kids for it.
If we want to get hard with drugs lets do our own policing .

This silly young man is a victim.
Of his own youthful silliness.
His parents love for him.
Our police force and governments intention to export our law and order in this Field to another country.
One that kills without compassion.
Can we ever beat drugs, the hard drugs, if we can not enforce the laws ourselves?
Did we truly say, lets get them in Indonesia then have them hanged?
Why not pick them up at the air port here.
Think of the real life wasted ,yes users first but is this man to die because some thing we need to cuddle another country?

The law is the law and the police, our police, can't be seen to act, or not act, simply on which law is being broken.

Now imagine if he were carrying a bomb. Would you expect the police to wait until he lands here before taking action.

The fact is, he broke the law in a country that has very clear rules with regards to drugs and, he did it not long after the corby arrest.

I feel for him, however, what did he expect would happen if he got caught and, did he know about the consequences of being caught with drugs over there.

Now if he was aware of the fact that his actions could lead to the death penalty if caught, then he should die.

Belly,

As an opponent of the death penalty, I genuinely hope that Scott Rush does not face the firing squad, but also that the ring leaders are shown clemency.

My gut feel is that with the intervention of the ex police commissioner at his appeal the message to Indonesia is clear. However, I can't see why some support hasn't been extended to the other two.

As far as police responsibility is concerned, I do however, understand their reluctance to wait. They had an idea that a shipment was coming, but unless they acted on it, the plans might change, and the drugs would come into the country another way. Restricting their work would be paid for by the victims of drugs in Australia.

Scott and the others whilst being young and naive, are also largely responsible for their own fate. The pay off if they succeed is a huge sum of cash, and probably the deaths of a few addicts in Aus. The consequences of getting caught are no secret either.

I could not care less about this piece of garbage. They knew exactly what they were doing and now have to pay the price.

Just the same as that other Aussie that was hung in Malaysia or Singapore a few years back. Few would even remember his name now, I don't.

Plenty of kids around that deserve and need some assistance to get on in life. Ones that don't run drugs to make a quid.

I feel more compassion for an ant I stepped on today.

Schappelle is doing a 20 year stretch for a bag of weed, unarguably a significantly less harmful substance. 10 pounds of weed here, might get you a year or so if you are silly enough to use legal aid.
I feel sorry for the girl, but thats about where it ends.

Michelle was going to do a long stretch for having a few e's or something, but having wealthy parents and pretending to be a muslim allowed her to escape. Remember the pictures of two attractive white girls handcuffed together heading to court? well one got away with it and the other is paying twice as a result.

The Bali 9 were caught fair and square, with double the weight of a far more dangerous substance. The only sad part is the suffering of their parents, who genuinely tried to do the right thing. Some want to blame the feds, and reckon they could run the show better. Armchair experts they are called.

Drugs are a dirty business, it is just as possible the dealers put a few in to the cops so a few others get through. Some are sacrificial, to make the authorities look effective. The cops generally make the effort to do the right thing, but sometimes things go wrong. Like the poor cop that accidently shot the other cop the other week.

So, for mine yes. It should have been done much sooner so the family can move on with life.

No pity from me at all, sorry to say;

I am personally opposed to the death penalty for the sole reason of killing an innocent by mistake- but seeing as that's not the case, tough for him.

It's Indonesia's laws, (and Indonesia's situation in the face of South East Asian drug industries and mobs) and their right to do as they wish.
And by events folding out exactly as they did (AFP tipping of Indonesia, not interfering with the sentence) we might actually get better relations with Indonesia by setting an example of ourselves that we take their cooperation seriously- and more importantly, we actually tell crooked Australians that we, as a nation, are NOT going to watch their back while they fix to stab ours. This factor would also harm mafias in the area from a security measure of legally-immune Australian Bogans to work with.

Scott Rush was perfectly happy to help bring this substance to harm other people for personal gain, so I really find him hard to sympathies with. And a question- did his dad ever, you know, tell SCOTT he tipped off the AFP?
Either which way, think about that for a minute.

I don't believe in the death penalty
except in the most severe circumstances,
such as psychopathic serial killers,
who can't be stopped any other way.

I'm not in a position to judge Scott Rush.
Frankly I don't know the full circumstances
of his case - except that he was caught drug
smuggling in Indonesia.

I would ask for clemency for any young person.
Including S. Corby, because I believe that
young people
often do foolish things and deserve a
second chance. Rush did not kill anyone in cold blood.
He's not a psychopath,
and perhaps he wasn't fully aware of the end result of
his actions.

They should make him do his time here, coz they will stick all sorts of dim-sims in his butt. The indo,s goals are bad, and NO-ONE wants to stay there and do a stretch, and if your white, you will not be getting out and walking strait.smile.

The drug and all drugs for that matter are the worst of all, if one gets hooked on it. Extradite him before he become a she.

TTM

Sad way to throw away your life.

Yeah cars kill a lot of people, and butter causes heart attacks, so I suppose we should be executing car dealers and dairy farmers too?

the harshness of the death penalty for this unfortunate young man is in stark contrast to the ridiculous light sentences given out in this country to totally selfish individuals who destroy the lives of others through pushing drugs. Both systems of law seem ridiculous especially when you consider a man in WA is likely to be fined $10000 simply for riding a whale. It will only get worse with the Greens gaining more power as they love animals and hate humans.

Interesting Post Belly but more than that, the question is really about "who we are".
It's also about how much we value human life.

Personally I'm opposed to the death penalty so therefore executing anybody (in my view) is a act of barbarism and should not happen.

Pat the Bogan doesn't seem as much a bogan after reading his post, but Banlo displays true bogan characteristics. King Hazza makes a good point about international relations and manages to be a bogan at the same time.

In this case the AFP hand balled information supplied by Scott Rush's parents to indonesia knowing that this may result in Scott Rush's execution among others.

If you are comfortable with this as an Australian "and I am not", then the AFP's actions were not in the best interest's of anyone's son's or daughter's in this country.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with Indonesia's unsuitable legal practices or penal system (as described by think than move) (and I don't),
it is fundamentally the job of the AFP to preserve "our way of life", "protect our citizens best interests", not Indonesia's.

The AFP now says, that they could not have known that the information they passed on would have resulted in such penalty's. This cannot be true.
It is out of their indebtedness / obligation to Scott Rush's parents, that we now see them making plea's for Rush's clemency.

This is of course "a far more Australian thing they do now, than they did in the first place".
I fear it will prove "to much, far to late for Rush and his cohorts".

If Rush is executed then it would be very difficult for Scot's parents to love their country.

A piece of traditional vernacular Australian poetry if I may( Author unknown)

Australia, Australia,
The land of the daffodil and dahlia
If ya land in jail, I'll bail ya
Australia.
Two arms , two hands,
Two steely bands
With a sprig of wattle in me hand
Australia.

runner please you had no need to introduce politics to this thread please refrain from doing it.
I too do not want the death penalty and first wish to explain the case as I think it took place
Scott appears to be a first timer, I am not sure of that.
The leaders and at least the woman had done it before.
Scots parents found out and informed on him.
Federal police informed Indonesia.
All got arrested.
After the federal policeman gave evidence Scott was only a courier last week the prosecution still called for the death penalty.
Scott may not live long enough to see the wrong end of those dim Sims.
The ring leaders are likely to die.
I think we can and should give our own justice.
We should have minimum sentences harsh ones take all property to pay prison costs, but never murder
more to come.

That poem was quoted to me by an old and good friend, known only to me as Oz.
He would quote it when the s--t, so to speak, had hit the fan in some way.

Let us all be honest.
Let us look at the issue.
Know the feeling you got first time your kid came home from school with blood on his/her face?
How you wanted to storm around and take to his/her attackers parents?
Now how you defended him/her when it was the other way around?
NOT MY CHILD! not me mate!
Some place right now mums and dads sit waiting to hear how Scott and his mates are going.
We can punish crime, any crime without murder.
We, yes some of you here now will cringe at storys about China harvesting organs from those it kills.
Claim we are different.
Think about this,the woman team member has done it before yet has 20 years Scott may die.
We love our loved ones and forgive almost anything, we defend them against all comers but call for other to die?
You my mate rechtub can not help your thoughts and ways its hard wired into you to be hard but smile more often think deeply about life, any of us make mistakes and death is forever.
I hurt still at a criminal in my family but while wanting no contact would stop at death unless an other victim came for wards, castration then answers exist other than murder.

I feel for the parents of this situation, and also with the likes of sharpell corby and the Bali crew. Play with fire! and you will get burned. See its hard when being young with so many temptations with making a fast buck with drugs. Belly is quite right to a point, but I believe in the death penalty on the basis of an eye for an eye and life for a life. Only murders falls right in that bracket.
See you cant screw with third world counties, and as pat the bogan and think 2 lightly pointed out, one must conduct one's self with-in the boundaries of worlds (we see as in this case) not understood.

The series Banged-up-aboard shows clearly what can happen in a heart beat

If he is executed on the grounds of that law in other lands, most times very little can be done. They also have their drug problems.

I believe the second chance card must be played in order of the western worlds laws and punishments, and not the death. We maybe too relaxed with our own laws and practices, hence the young not seeing the out-comes, of their silly misjudgments.

Bring him home!cause if you leave him there, and others make the same mistakes, death will be better than doing a life term. The policy for this type of crime should be handed back to there place of origin, and be dealt with the laws that the individual is accustom to.

Killing him will show no faith between the counties.

If one kills one of ours, then if we catch one of them, the same should apply.

TT

Should Scott Rush die?

No. Absolutely not.

Well thinker2, your not much of a thinker at all.

Breeding kids is a gamble. Some may be brilliant, some turn out OK. Then some turn out to be real dead beats, a handicap to their parents and a burden on the community. We would be far better off if the latter were not born. As my old man would say, 'better he was tapped on the head at birth and the milk fed to the pigs'

Unfortunately, for Rush's parents this kid has turned out that way, but that is the chance one takes when you breed. A percentge fail and from all walks of life and upbringings. We should not bear the cost of keeping them. Pity so much time effort and money has been spent on him all these years, what a waste!

You have a strange concept of what a bogan is, or are you simply using the word because you cannot come up with something meaningfull to say. Like the useless and meaningless poem you posted.

Belly asked for our opinions. You disagree with mine so you resort to name calling.

One thing can be garranteed if he is shot. He won't do it again and there will be less carbon footprint. Now that is a plus for the world.

I detest parasites. He had no respect for others, he deserves none.

Yes your quite Runner, the greens are gaining power. QUESTION!( when the planet is in trouble, who do you think should be in power?)

Runner! just chill. I have bigger fish to fry.

"It will only get worse with the Greens gaining more power as they love animals and hate humans."

Runner! Would it be fair to say that Noah's ark( being a man of god) that ordered all living things to save all?

So its fair to say he was a greeny?

Would you not?

I prefer the old testament.

IT just might be what mankind needs.

TT

Firstly people, stop feeding the troll (not mentioning any names).
The reason is because these threads are dragged entirely off topic because people keep falling for his game, instead of dismissing his empty rantings.

Second, I hope we don't fall into the myths that Scott Rush was a "kid" who didn't understand what he was doing. He was 19 when he was caught, had a history of criminal activity before and would likely know the nature of what he was doing- and for that matter, most kids 16 and over would have a clear idea of the implications of smuggling heroin for cash.

Also, the AFP 'not looking out for Australians'? Considering that we depend upon working with Indonesia's police forces to prevent heroin shipments and terrorist attacks, and what they did would discourage other potential couriers from making the same trip and thus further reducing the options heroin trafficking cartels have to get their products into our country, I'd say they clearly weighed up the lives of the broader populace against the lives of nine persons who were quite happy to put other lives at peril to line their pockets.

The alternative- keeping the nine a secret and arresting them upon return for the purpose of giving them a milder, Australian sentence, would have easily encouraged the practice.

And just remember, heroin isn't just a danger to the people who use it- a good proportion of thefts and muggings are committed by people funding a drug habit. Not to mention the hazard of discarded needles.

(and the strange thing is, I would support injecting rooms as part of the process of reducing addicts threats to others).

Two trolls exist here lets keep politics out of this thread I no longer want to talk that subject in this forum.
Now Bazz, and KH what crime did Scott rush commit.
Was he a dealer.
Do you think the Australian Federal Police lied?
They say he was a paid foolish courier.
Do we kill fools, even if it was your child, truly?
Remember my story about the kids coming home from school?
How about sons and daughters from a Saturday night pub brawl?
they are only the victims are they not? not my kids! not me mate hang the buggers who did this really?
kill?
Actually no one intends to hang them.
They will be taken out in to a Feild and shot dead probably with a machine gun

When it comes to the death penalty in Indonesia, one can not go comparing apples with oranges, like some are doing.

The facts are clear and simple.

If you wish to do drugs and not face the death penalty, don't do them in Indonesia.

Now as for the parents, they were acting in the best interest of our country, trying to stop a drug shipment arriving in Australia. The fact that it was their own son, is irrelevant. To suggest anything else is saying it's OK to be bias.

I say again, if he was aware of the consequences, then he should die.

Should any of them die - not by my preferences.

Do I want the government to divert more of this countries resources to trying to stop them facing a clearly advertised penalty for their own choices - no.

Right now in this country there are people facing death sentences from diseases we might be able to cure if more funding was available. There are kid's suiciding who might be saved if we had better resourcing in support services. There are people losing their homes because the combination of housing prices, interest rates, cost of living and taxation is more than they can bear. Look to some other countries and there are thousands of people dying of malnutrition, preventable diseases and a variety of other causes which sometimes can be avoided by very small amounts of money.

R0bert

To pack this down to a simple concept, "two wrongs don't make right".

The problem with institutionalised absolute punishments such as death by firing squad,
the removal of limbs for stealing etc, is that it sanctifies the notion that one human being
should have a right to dispense with another human being anyway.
It's OK or justified to do that.

What if the person executed turns out later to be innocent. This is the obvious flaw.

But the worst aspect of absolute penalties
"is the propensity of such excessive power to attract people who wish to exercise it".
Having such power encourages and advocates it's use. It perpetuates itself.
Death penalties are a great way to rid yourself of your competitors in a dictatorship.

I mentioned the"preservation of our way of life" earlier and I'm still glad that,
"it is not considered appropriate to execute people in our way of thinking".
This is one of the fundamental reasons why we enjoy the freedoms we do.
Such as expressing our views on forums like this without fear.

Regardless about how vociferous we feel, about Rush's own culpability,
I think there are still to many of us who feel that they should have a right to make the call on this.

I see rehctub wrote, "if he was aware of the fact that his actions could lead to the death penalty if caught, then he should die".

Using ECACTLY the same logic then rehctub would have to support the stoning to death of women who commit adultery in some of the more radical Muslim regions. After all, " if she was aware of the fact that her actions could lead to the death penalty if caught, then she should die".

Nice one rehctub.

Do not blame rechtub it is quite often true people like him do not understand they are harsh and judgmental.
Lets look at his post,, look too butcher, can you assure us his mum and dad only wanted to protect Australia from another drug import, you said that you know.
You spoke if bias? you meant yours or ours those who want no death sentences.
How old is he 22? 25? did you ever make a mistake at that age?
Australian federal police could have waited arrested them all in our country.
every one of them.
I propose total property confiscation for drug dealers and their crews, everything, to pay for prison terms much harsher.
Even never to be let out but death, for being a fool and a pawn?
As we, all of us comment do we think in real life terms about what we say?
On the evidenced our federal police he should not die, may not but would you want to be him now.
Or the two walking dead leaders, would you want the same if it was your son.

Should those who are attracted by windfall profits from drugs and are presently choosing to take the risks because they think that the customs, police and courts in Indonesia are unprofessional jokes, suffer the likely consequences of their actions when caught? At this moment there are gangs with overseas connections planning to import drugs (and new guns to defend their drug territories).

Like everyone else I reflect my upbringing and culture and try as I might I cannot see this criminal act as Indonesians do. It would be with unmitigated gall and entirely without credibility that I would try to push the Indonesian government around on this when it is so obvious to them that our limp punishments of drug running strongly encourage the trade we want the Indonesians to stop.

Senior police admit that Australia has lost its fight against drugs. Governments federal and State refuse to cooperate and fund the cross-jurisdictional teams that have been so successful in disrupting the drug trade. Ever wondered why senior decision-makers would limit and not support such proven strategies to reduce drugs and violence? Simple, there is so much money involved in drugs that it can corrupt at the highest levels.

Why isn't a ruckus being raised to curtail the disgusting trade that results in thousands of families being affected by loss of a loved one every year?

"Do I want the government to divert more of this countries resources to trying to stop them facing a clearly advertised penalty for their own choices - no."
Robert I agree completely;

Belly;
"crime did Scott rush commit?"
Transporting a banned substance in a country in which drug trafficking is a crime, into a country in which drug trafficking is also a crime.

"Do you think the Australian Federal Police lied?"
Lied about what? He clearly knew he was transporting an illegal substance, and would have likely been able to figure out it was a harmful substance, but was too greedy and callous to care.

"Do we kill fools, even if it was your child, truly?"
If that 'fool' wittingly commits a crime for personal gain, then yes, that person must face the law of the countries they committed it in. And the "if it was your son" argument is botched- if the person made an exception to their kid, they would be a hypocrite; if not, the accuser would use that as an opportunity to divert the thread to try to make some other strawman. And it just smacks if an alarming form of ignorance that some people (actually most) sincerely are capable of raising children with better morals.

"they are only the victims are they not?"
Hardly. They would be the victims if the drugs were slipped into their luggage without their knowing- but that wasn't the case.
I think some people need to get a grip that these aren't a bunch of innocent cherubs who were hoodwinked by some shadowy Indonesian conspiracy- they were clearly playing an active part.

"Have you never made a mistake when you were that age?"
No. It's really not that hard. And back then I and my peers also knew the full implications of an act such as theirs. So I treat the 'didn't know' excuse as nothing but a blatant lie by the defendant to get out of trouble.

T2 >>What if the person executed turns out later to be innocent. This is the obvious flaw.

How more guilty could this guy be?

Transki,Firstly, I don't give two hoots about muslim laws.

Secondly, if that is the law, and they knowingly broke that law, then so be it.

Ok belly, so what you are suggesting is the AFP should have waited and arrested him back here, only because he may face the death penilty over there. I say again, law inforcers can not be picky. The law is the law.

>>I propose total property confiscation for drug dealers and their crews, everything, to pay for prison terms much harsher.

Ok, so what you suggesting is that only those who have anything will pay under your scheme.

So, what about those with nothing?

So, let's assume they didn't get caught and all those drugs found their way on to our streets and in to the hands of wayward kids.

Now how would you feel if your kid was effected by these drugs and you found out the AFP knew about them but thought they would wait and catch them when they arrived so they would not face the DP, but something went wrong and the avaided the AFP.

Withholding evidence is a serious affence, I would suggest even more so for police.

He fu@ked up and that's the story. Just try and learn from it. What! are we to believe that he didn't know what he was doing...........yeah right! Its like going to a casino, place your bets and spin your wheels.

I feel for him, but we all don't have sh@t for brains stamped on our foreheads.

My last post stands.


TTM

Not to mention Rehctub, the message it sends to dishonest Australians were the AFP to have taken the alternate approach;
"If you contribute your services to mafia groups overseas, we, the AFP, will actively try to thwart other country's police forces and compromise our chances of preventing you from achieving your objective to commit a crime and bring illegal substances upon your own countrymen, because saving you is more important".
Quite frankly, the AFP are doing a better job of NOT helping corrupt citizens in committing crimes overseas for purely THEIR benefit, but letting them get the harsh full force of the rules of conduct to the benefit of absolutely every other Australian (and Indonesian) by actually helping them combat crime.

And personally the amount of complaining I'm hearing from some about how hard it is to simply NOT go out of your way to do the wrong thing is rather worrying.

Good call by showing the flipside of the "what if it was your kid" argument too.

TTM I have had enough of you, I swear like a drunken sailor some times but you do not need to show me you are rude here in print ace it up.
About this time, maybe a bit earlier the cell doors will open in that Indonesian prison.
Two it may be three young Australians, that is what they are, will be lead to their deaths.
two ran a drug smuggling business, may have the deaths of tens in their minds, may not truly care.
Scott Rush still a kid, will if he dies do so not for drug smuggling but for being a pack horse and a fool.
My idea,harsher non compromising prison terms,give me no bleeding hearts about drug victims, we made them so.
Is an answer rechtub do you truly think punishment for the poor should differ?
Take ALL PROPERTY.
Fund new prisons, it would amount to that much but kill?
We do not kill pedophiles murderers, terrorists we convict, harsh uncompromising law is the answer.
I ask those who talk about death first and last to consider this we can if we wish if we truely act stop drugs.
We kill a few but the true rich often big business men get away free.

Belly, you are simply getting confused here.

We do not kill people here in Aus, nor do most of us want to see them be killed, however, the law over there, with regards to drugs is in plain back and white. You get caught, you face the death penalty. There simply is no grey area.

Now, back to your condemnation of the AFP.

Just imagine if there were an insider within the airline that SR was traveling on and, they managed to hide the drugs and rush was searched here, after being tipped off by the AFP, and not caught with the drugs. Then what!

We would have a shipment of drugs, ready to hit our streets, harm our kids, yet the AFP could have prevented this, only their feeling for this kid/criminal got in the way of their duty.

Remember, a part of the corby defence is that someone within the airline planted the drugs.

Another scenario, a little off track.

Imagine a police officer following a 'P' plater doing 90 in a 70 zone.

Now, assuming the owner is driving, the officer knows he has no prior driving history and, he also knows there is an 80 zone just around the corner.

Q. Should the officer wait until the driver reaches the 80 zone before he makes his move, thus lessening the consequences?

Unfortunately mate, your argument is wafer thin.

And I'm still not getting the supposed "grey area" of being a mule;
Apparently there is a difference between coming up with the idea (one of the 'ring leaders'), being the first to sign up (the other ring leader), and being a subsequent co-conspirator (Rush and the rest).
They all actually conspired to do a drug run, as they would have needed planning and debriefing to ensure, you know, the shipment was successful; so how exactly does Rush's innocence come into play?

(And then of course there is the "grey area" if you were instead transporting munitions or an explosive device, instead of being the one to plant, or detonate it- which is why we have more than one 'Bali Bomber'.)

And these aside;

Scott Rush is not a "kid"- he is 25 years old, and when he committed the offense he was 19 (adult age).

And all this is irrelevant again because it's Indonesia's laws- which they are following quite fairly, and their right to call the shots;
(and no, I don't care that Saudi Arabia or whatever still stone adulterers, it's not our business- nor, in comparison, the Western-Justice-based system that Indonesia utilizes). Also, being surrounded by impoverished regions with nothing else to do but form contraband mafias, (outside their control unless they cross borders), they don't actually have much choice but to impose harsher penalties than we do (us conveniently being at the end of a death-penalty obstacle course for any drug runners).

And on the note of 'the rich getting away'- funny you should say that, because the countries that have demonstrated otherwise to a better extent than us were either Singapore, or Socialist nations- and the all use/d the death penalty.

All in all, I still don't see the reason why Australia should interfere, or assist crime in that region for the sole purpose of actually protecting the criminal tourists at the expense of actually enforcing our own attempts to combat crime.

Belly, these people that get themselves into trouble have other options rather than the one as in the case of this young man. The series like banged up aboard, money was the main driving force for their capture ( and the level of regret after-wards, I have no doubt their sorry and if he was setup,( and some governments do set western people up for just this reason of money ) the only person who really knows is Scott him self.

Like shepelle corbies case and many others, they all cry I WAS SET UP! when caught.

You will see, if you have watched the show, they new what they where doing and a fast buck was the main lure.

But like most second and third world countries, if you have the right amount of money, a deal can be reached but not all will be corrupt.

And NO, killing him wont deter while money and drugs looks more inviting than holding a job.

In today's world, its just mine-field for the gullible and the not so bright.

Like I said, if you play with fire, you will get burned.

And I'll ace up as you put it.

The profanity was un-called for.

If he was a normal holiday maker or what ever, I think this would not of happened.

TTM>

This is a most interesting series of posts and some well thoughtout and expressed opinions.
Personally I think that the Australian Government ought to intervene to the extent of supplying the bullets.

Rechtub,mate, I am 100% sure your self confidence is miss placed.
You told me I do not understand.
Then went on about police and a speeding motorist.
Others smirk in print at the thought of what looks like deaths of two, or three of these folk.
You claim no difference between a paid mule, who never shares the profits, and ring leaders.
In an American prison sits a man who helped bring on the GFC he is not to be killed for it.
Billions of stolen dollars hundreds of business criminals not one will die for it.
I see a heartlessness here not just you supplied the bullets?
No defense for drugs no defending them, but we kill the little man and the ring leaders never get caught.
In prestigious news papers in the 70,and 80,s big celebrity names we heard are behind drug importation, surely we know some police are too yet we kill a kid we could have taken off that plane and imprisoned.
Just maybe our federal police thought getting down on their knees to Indonesia letting them kill our people would gain favor to assist in terrorist or boat people things,, we gave up our people knowing we killed them in doing it gutless.

Those people we 'gave up' were perfectly happy to kill somebody else in Australia for money- so no, I can't say I feel bad for them- in fact, we are arguably still on a much better plane of morality because we technically, were acting in self-defense against them while they were acting on greed.

And I don't see why the differences of priorities and principles of some other justice system should factor in, unless the people who own that said justice system decide another approach is more workable for them.
But to imply "because X justice system fails to do this, what right does Y justice system have to try an approach in a different area?"
Or, because somebody has a bad idea, nobody else has the right to not follow suit and try better, for the sake of being consistent with the worst?

It's up to Indonesia to decide if they want to try a different approach to drug running, or keep the one they have now.

Belly, you are grasping at straws old mate.

The fact that many serious offenders will not face death for their crimes is totally irrelevant in this case as Indonesia has black and white laws when it comes to doing drugs. The death penalty. End of story.

Certain states within the Us also have the death penalty for certain crimes, however, if these crimes are committed elsewhere, the death penalty does not apply.

In any case there are many countries where the penalty for doing drugs is not death. He chose the wrong country.

BTW belly, had he tried to smuggle drugs from Australia to Indonesia and got caught here, he would not be facing the death penalty.

I say again, he made the wrong choice, but it was his choice to make.

A study was conducted years ago stating that most young people, young males particularly, are not able to think through social consequences of behaviour until they reach around the 25 year old mark.

There are exceptions with kids through harsher life experiences and/or from walks of life where they have listened and observed role models' stories of negative social situations. There are some old souls at a younger age, sure, that have common sense and the intelligence despite being drug traffickers, not to take up importing and exporting of drugs to Bali, Thailand, and other countries.

However, when I hear about the 25's and under being caught and knowing how young in the minds these kids are today, and the years of being imprisoned in dreadful environments such as the holes in Bali and Thailand; my heart goes out to both these kids, their siblings and parents. These kids deserve to learn from their experiences and be punished for a year, while in a rehabilitating environment; never fading away for more than a year sitting in a filthy gaol in a foreign country away from family and friends/their life.

We all make mistakes, particularly kids under 25 years of age learning.

Belly,
Why should Rush be treated any different to any others caught overseas carrying drugs? He did the crime!

Obviously you haven't remembered the Aussie blokes name that was hanged in Malaysia or Singapore a few years back. I don't recall either and won't bother looking it up.

See they arrested another Aussie bloke in Bali today, allegedly carrying drugs. If he is guilty then too bad, if they shoot him I couldn't care less. Saves feeding him for 20 years. You gonna go into bat for this bloke too?

Bali,

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/world/bali-arrest-of-australian-carrying-17kg-of-ice/story-e6freoox-1225932943343

I am aware an idiot was caught in Bali yesterday.
Wearing a shirt that said criminal in that country's language.
He will die for it unless he is actually insane, no difference.
I dislike the death penalty but he was taking it into another country, almost seems like,on first look, he has mental health issues.
Scott Rush however is different, we gave him up, we have weak laws and weaker federal police and let another country kill for us
RECHTUB! clutching at straws? is the world you inhabit one that allows only one opinion? are you alone right, always?
If we kill this kid by letting our national duty's be rented out we are in fact killing him our selves.
Do not tell me other white collar crimes that see lenient or not sentences can not be compared to poor men dieing and rich men prospering by drug trade.
Sit quietly gentlemen put your self in his mum and dads place the morning he is lead out to die.
They did not want him dead they wanted to save him, yet via our federal police they killed him.
Hopefully Indonesian courts have more understanding and compassion than some here, he should not die.
He should not be compared to the idiot from yesterday.

>>>I dislike the death penalty but he was taking it into another country,

Belly, had he been caught here instead, before be arrived in Bali, he would not be facing the DP. That's the ironic part about it, but, it is their law and we must obied by it.

Now someone mentioned him being very your and perhaps not mature enough, Fair call, So what about his parent who apparently gave him up. Were they also to immature to realise the consequences of their actions?

And belly, we are all entitled to our opinion and I respect you for yours, however, this is different in my view as Bali has strict laws when it comes to drugs.

I quite like the reference to gaol in Bali being, 'a hole in the ground' .

I would sure like to see more of that here, but I must stress once again, gaol in my opinion should be for hardened criminals only. Not fine dodgers or petty thieves.

Meanwhile we have people offending just to be locked up and provided for, many of whom are better off, and they know it.

It just comes to show how powerful media stories are at emotional manipulation simply by choice of portrayal. Scott Rush is exactly the same as this new idiot- it's only because he's young(ish- despite being a legal adult and old enough to join the army) and has a Cherubic face that the media instead decide to make it a sob story, focus on his poor parents etc, his "I'm sad about this please help" and particularly "I didn't mean to, I was tricked" etc.

This ugly mean-faced tattooed middle-aged man, on the other hand, probably won't be treated so fairly. We probably won't get anywhere near even the amount of quotes off him- just a few distant pictures of him in scowling in handcuffs.

Who talks about privilege now?

Anyway, I think Rehctub and I are actually wasting our time actually asnwering the "what if it were your kids" and apparent void legal equity hysteria because we DID answer these, just to find them being asked in exactly the same way again.

That and the "If we fall short in some legal area, then we should fall short in others so its fair" argument isn't working- how about WE simply pull our weaker enforcements in line to be as tough?

To be honest this issue is becoming so blatantly obviously driven by emotional hysteria void of logic it's not funny.

KH is it a surprise to you that I disagree with most things you say.
Both you and rechtub should understand yesterdays idiot, we do not know yet if he truly is,was caught in another country.
Rush? his mum and dad surely thought they may save him by dobbing him in?
Now please debate but refrain if you can from belittling my view parents who say awful things about others kids rarely say it about their own in the same circumstances.
Rush was not the prime dealer the fool if thats what he was seems to have been we do not yet know.
In a week or a month we could find out why he wore a shirt saying he was a criminal while importing drugs.
Just maybe he never knew the shirt said that just maybe he did not know he was carrying drugs you convict and want to kill him on a newspaper headline?
Scott Rush should not die, the woman on her second trip at least will not he should not die.

No Belly, you got it wrong about my argument about the other guy.
My point is there is absolutely nothing to separate Rush from the other Eight- nor this new guy (if he were indeed guilty) and definitely not the other death row inmates, AT ALL.
It's nothing more than falling for media emotional appeal, targeting a niche market of people who would cry out for a photogenic cherub who is going to die. It's a media circus that tries to pull in viewers from different demographics whenever possible, but usually doesn't bother for people that are ugly or don't put on a great show.
The new guy will unlikely get the same coverage, guilty or innocent.
Hell, compare the majority of Scott Rush photos (why was he even singled out you should ask?) against the two 'ringleaders' (two?);
Always the scared puppy dog face of Rush vs the angry scowls and glares of the other two guys.

Scott Rush was not some little angel who got tricked into wearing a funny vest while on holiday, he was as much a willing participant as the rest of the group and well aware of what he was doing. There is nothing random or accidental, and it didn't HAPPEN to him- he went out of his way to take part and MAKE it happen.

Tell me, what separates Scott from the other guys?
-He wasn't any more of a 'kid' than they were
-He was as deliberate a conspirator as they were
-His only difference is to ONE of them that he couldn't come up with any ideas for the attack.

Operations like these can be planned by an ordinary person- but for a group it requires a lot of planning with all members to ensure they don't slip up and blow the cover- and if Rush's father somehow knew, Scott would have very much been in the know.

It is a tricky one. I do not support the death penalty in any way whatsoever and, as such, do not believe Scott Rush should be executed. I have heard the arguments that his actions could have caused death to an untold number of drug users, and I understand them. Dope pushers, those who prey on the weak and vulnerable, who make a fortune out of others' misery - they are certainly not without blame. Of course, nor are the people who knowingly take drugs and risk their lives; those who tie up health services because of their own hedonistic activities. In short, Rush willingly made himself a cog in a machine of misery. Those who buy and use drugs also willingly make themselves cogs in that machine, so people like Rush can hardly be held to account for their misfortunes.

That said, I am also opposed to our government telling other nations like Indonesia how to deal with their own legal matters. If, after appeal, Rush's death penalty is upheld, then so be it. It's the way they do things. I think it is wrong, but if they do not then I can hardly hold that against them.

Of course he shouldn't die. He was just showing the true entrepreneurial spirit. Since when has making money had anything to do with right and wrong?

KH I have a question, are your posts your considered opinions?
Surely the answer will be yes?
You make up your own mind based on your views life experiences and such ok?
Then why do you think my views are ruled by media or such.
Do you think maybe I need help to make up my mind, re read your last couple of posts here tell me I am wrong to get the view you think my opinions are some one Else's.
We talk about a human, you speak of the other eight, you are aware are you not that only three are sentenced to die?
And of these Scott Rush is the only mule to be sentenced to die.
He may not but are your opinions formed on understanding the whole issue.
One line posts saying kill him to me seem heartless and unthinking I again say no death penalty for any one we should not murder.

There are limits to diplomacy and Australia is looking very foolish and patronising. Australia has been very noisy and insistent that other countries should be vigilant in stopping drugs destined for its shores. There are demands to share intel and specialised equipment is supplied to other nations to improve their surveillance.

Through dressing the latest arrested villain (alleged) in clothes labelled 'perpetrator' and advising the media that he was arrested using Australian supplied equipment, there is a fair chance that the Indonesian authorities are showing just how exasperated they are with Australia's apparent hypocrisy in demanding robust action in detection and enforcement, yet making special pleas for its own criminals when caught.

Forgive my presumptions Belly, but from my perspective that is the only differentiation Scott Rush truly has;
Odd though it is that Rush was the only mule not spared a death sentence (as opposed to being singled out for getting an increase), I am detecting a much more substantial perception of differentiation from Scott against the others, be it his fellow death row three (one of which actually conceived the plan, and another having a more dominant planning role than the rest)- or the spared six, without anything to base it on but repeatedly different portrayal, implications and coverage focusing exclusively on him.

Because his actions are being brushed off as a 'mistake' or 'bad luck' when there is simply no chance, given the evidence present, that that is the case- but instead an informed and deliberate action he willingly signed up for.

In debate King Hazza or in seeking a resolution to a problem all views have value.
It is not fallacy but fact the man who sweeps the floor may have the answers.
I do not think Rush being caught was because of a mistake or Innocent action.
If he had been arrested here, in Australia the sentenced to say 30 years, what impact would it have on other drug carriers?
If every thing he owned,and all the Bali nine owned, no artificial transfers to protect property.
No oh let the children have the home, what impact would it have on drug importation to our country?
What impact will killing any of the Bali nine have on drug importation and selling in Australia?
The Politically Correct will stampede in, trying as they always do to control the majority saying we should not take property not give such sentences not imprison the victims.
We must do what Aussies do so well in times of trouble, stand together for fairness.
Australia has been on its knees to Indonesea for too long my past prime minister spoke of its once leader as PAPA not mine mate.

I imagine anything resulting in the AFP withholding information from Indonesia instead of tipping them off would encourage criminals instead.

The problem with repaying costs, although I admit its more tempting and would have better discouragement and penalty upon the accused is that often these people don't actually have enough money to substantiate prison coverage (which is VERY expensive), especially in their own name. Either the repatriations would be more flexible and taken less seriously and hoodwinked, they would be more inclined to return to crime to pay it off, or costs would be passed to relatives (regardless if they even LIKE the accused)?

As for Indonesia, they are technically doing us a favor. Not to mention that the drugs they are intercepting are all intended for us.

Thanks rechtub for the negativity toward my team we choked all right, back the tears after our 32 to 8 win.
I can make no impact here, let it die but some crime bosses are quite rich,some importers are seen to Be clean skins and each of us knows of some one very well off who made their money this way.
Sadly court appearances in this country are often in camera if such are involved and away from home towns.
Yet we ask another country to police our laws?

Well Indonesia is free to not care- and have the capacity to ignore us.
But it seems they also take removing the drug business from their midst as seriously as we do- they don't want the dealers setting up mafias and porting contraband (nor their own citizens taking that stuff), and we don't want it either.

As both of our drug problems come substantially from the same source, it is only logical we would join forces.

King Hazza, the only problem with your view is that is un-servicable and inaccurate.

Like all prohibitions and now days, "pro alcohol anti drug hysteria" creates opportunity for criminals.
And in Indonesia they resolve this by the execution of anyone they can make an example of.

Once again, this whole post is really about who we are. Which is basically a bunch of scared weird little people sanctifying public execution.
Prime targets in fact for any charlatan worth his salt.

Especially people of your view King Hazza. I'm sure you would wish that all think like you, but of course some people are more worldly than yourself.

But despite this you still feel you have a right to determine who should be executed and whom should not, based upon your viewpoint.
Very civilised and intelligent not.

There is no way that anyone regardless of circumstances should be officially executed in a civilised society.

To illustrate, 23000 people have been killed in a matter of months by authorities, in a war over drugs on the Mexico/Us border recently.
In a free-er society. None of this would be required.

And at the end of the day, another bunch of entrepreneurs will move in to meet the demand anyway.

The problem is the profit margin increases every time your transport prohibited things, and in Australia's case in point.
I understand Cocaine is worth ten times the value it attracts in Us in Australia.
The more hysteria you feel over this KH the more the price will just increase.
And the more unbridled power you hand to authorities, the more repressive society will become.

Regardless of what hysteria or fear you may feel over prohibited substances.
No one including the end drug users should die over this.

Thinker you are not living up to your name, because you can't tell the difference between;

a)
Either being a 'hysteric' abolitionist and death-penalty supporter
-

OR,
b) when faced with the following choice;

1- tipping off a foreign police force as part of our cooperative efforts to combat interconnected transnational crime between our countries and sacrificing a handful of Australians to actually face the law of the country the offense was first committed, weighing in the fact that we were the target of their actions with potential for considerable harm to our society to consider

2- hoodwinking said police force to cover said national criminals so they may commit their crime more safely, at the risk of damaging our cooperation and encouraging more crime.

And picking 2.
There is no sweet-talking, this is exactly what I think, as much as you are clearly convinced it's more simple than that.
And I would happily endorse option 2 even if we legalized heroin here (also ignoring that their actions would still technically be a crime here).

Well belly, I will say congratulations on your teams victory, however, it must be a hollow victory indeed, as at least four of their trys should not have been allowed.

Try 1, the winger was out on the play before but got away with it.

Another try was after a deliberate push in the back from a saints player, that should have been a penalty, instead, it was a drop out for the roosters.

Another was given even though he clearly lost control of the ball and another whereby an attacking player was beside the one playing the ball, a move aimed at distracting the opposing defence.

So enjoy your hollow victory mate.

Now as for this thread, opinions are opinions and we are all entitled to them, however, laws are also laws and indonesia is simply implementing one of theirs.

Now you can object to it, that's your right, however, you can not go about telling them what is right or wrong.

And, the message is 'loud and clear' do not do drugs in indonesia.

AH The last resort rechtub, our game is in trouble two of my teams trys are clearly not trys.
One of two of the other teams was not, several penalty's got it wrong.
Hollow victory? take the wrongs out my team wins, you can not hide your failure to under and the game in fluff.
Now Gentlemen, KH and my mate rechtub, let us together look at this thread from another angle.
The Bali Nine, why then are only 3 sentenced to death?
Consider this, if you think Rush should die do you think the rest got of lightly?

Well belly, I can't answer your question as I simply don't know the facts of the others. Perhaps you can assist.

Were the other six caught with drugs?

If so, was the content of drugs sufficient to warrant the death penalty?

Now what I do know is that SR was caught, at the airport, ready to board a plan, bound for Australia with an amount of drugs strapped to his body, sufficient to attract the DP.

Indonesian law states that if one is caught in possession of drugs, in excess of 'X' then they face the DP if convicted. I also understand there are signs at the airports stating this.

I also feel you are misunderstanding me.

I do not wish to see SR sentenced to death any more than you do, however, Indonesian law is in plain black and white and they are in my view entitled to act on it.

He chose to do drugs in a country that is determined to eradicate drugs dealers and traffickers and, he got caught.

On the contrary, if he is executed and his death deters even a few people from importing drugs to Aus, then that in its self will save many more 'innocent' lives than the 'guilty' one that is lost.

BTW, the saints were the better side on the day, no doubt about that.

As far as I'm aware all 9 members had a roughly similar amount of heroin strapped to their bodies, so I find it odd that over half were spared the DP.

I actually imagine the judge randomly spared most of them for publicity purposes.
Personally if the Indonesian Law states Death for possession of X+ heroin, then getting a lesser sentence for an Australian sends the wrong message;
If it said 20 years jail for smuggling, death for planning the operation, THEN they (including Rush) should all get 20 years jail, and the two planners singled out).

Fair enough KH and I'm glad to know that you would support a more civilised world.

It's the extremes and repressive nature of the military regime and their so called elected
partners in Indonesia that I can not abide.
This country is a product of American meddling and manipulation.
One just has to go back to the assassination of Sukarno and the insertion of the corrupt Suharto
to remember that this country wouldn't know what was justice was in any circumstance. Just ask the Timorese.

I think the world could do with less prohibitions and less repressive regimes.
And less American thinking and corrupt manipulation. e.g. Israel/ Palestine
Instead giving Indonesia encouragement by pretending they have legitimacy.
They should be taken to task over their barbarism.

Not one asylum seeker would want to leave a war zone created by the U.S.
to live in a country like Indonesia would they?.

Why pat them on the back or co-operate with them. I am also very concerned about joint military ops with Indonesia.
No one else in the region can trust them. Why should we. Are we scared of them?.

One thing for sure, (and not to single out you KH) lots of us have irrational fears about
recreational drugs but we seem fine with corruption,propaganda, uncivilised executions, injustice,
military dictatorships, repression etc, claiming the end justifies the means.

"It is about who we are and what sort of world we wan"t.
As I have stated from the start of this post.
They schedule to execute Rush, so they can extract bowing and scraping from him
and still enjoy the execution if they want. No one wants to live in that country.
It's appalling and beneath dignity.

rechtub Scott Rushes parents, unhappy and unsure about how he got the money to go to Bali, concerned he may be doing something wrong informed our federal police.
They informed the Indonesian police.
Scott and most of the nine had drugs strapped to their body's.
Others, including I think but am not sure the ring leaders got arrested in their hotel room.
Carrying brief cases that tested positive to the drug.
3 both ring leaders and Rush are still on death row.
It seems a chance Rush may be pardoned, well let live out a sentence of life, but the other two, not a happy future I am afraid.

Fair enough Thinker, I'll try to elaborate the issue;

First drugs- it seems that prohibition (making heroin illegal) isn't working (including pricing), so I would agree that the explicit case of 'stop the heroin because it's deadly" isn't an argument.
However, if heroin were legalized (and it partly is, inside an injecting room), by smuggling products, they are potentially contributing to a triad, and circulating deadlier products with chances of littered needles, access to under-age users, and maintaining a motive for theft (although if injecting rooms charged a higher or similar fee, this would continue- so a separate debate is necessary on subsidizing).

Indonesia, despite a fair share of administrative corruption, is still a fairly free democracy that does take its protection from crime groups seriously enough to increase the penalty for many criminal practices to death or many decades prison. I generally don't support the death penalty on risk of false incarceration, but I cannot judge this country for using it because they lack the resources (And often the sovereignty) to minimize the poverty and increase opportunities to those in poor regions (including neighboring countries) as we can, so I cannot blame them for simply resorting to more desperate measures (even Singapore, easily above most first world nations, resorts to it due to such proximity).

To put the situation together, a country that hasn't many options but to impose harsh penalties for crimes on its soil has Australians committing these crimes (in their eyes), with intent to profit from something that is harmful to Australians- our choice is only to sacrifice these people to ensure (Indonesian) justice is served and cooperation in policing (usually to our benefit and protection), or the opposite and compromise these things for the rest of us, to save people who legal or not, had less than humane goals for us.

Keep in mind, BOTH options are potentially illegal, and either one would be honoring our obligations of one agreement or another- and have claims to national benefit and protection.

All you say is sound KH.

I believe that society would be better served in every way by a more mature understanding
over this whole issue.

If I can quote the best example of the death and mayhem contributed too by our attitudes.

One day for some unknown reason I was listening to 3AW and a father whose son had died from an "overdose in the gutter" (as he himself described) was saying that his other son was about to go the same way. It occured to me that it was obvious the 2nd son could also not depend on a safe home environment either , just like the first son, as well as having a drug problem. The father had in fact learnt nothing from the death of the first son.

We will contribute to many more deaths like this (inc most likely, Scott Rush's) by maintaining the status quo.
By continuing with the attitudes we have.

I still don't think KH that 2 wrongs make a right. And my basic belief is that wilful killing is far worse than drug peddling.
Whether it is sanctioned by law or otherwise.

And as to who is the most culpable in the execution of Scott Rush, that would be us.

Indeed thinker;
With the drug trade I ultimately think it needs to be legalized to combat most of the problems- although I do not take this stance lightly at all because heroin still causes a LOT of social problems and expenses, that extent way beyond the scope of the users who consume it.

Although I disagree with the following:
"I still don't think KH that 2 wrongs make a right. And my basic belief is that wilful killing is far worse than drug peddling."
To be quite frank they're both exactly the same, only one (sometimes) demands less intent to actually cause death, as opposed to be simply happy to risk other people's lives for one's own gain. And I'd hate to say that two wrongs probably did make a right- but then again, the alternative would have been a clear wrong too.
It's easy to make statements on this issue IF it a purely domestic case (drug legalization);
But when it comes to our stance on a foreign law, it becomes a different matter.
Also there is a difference of geopolitical needs potentially putting higher stakes on stopping whichever crimes they treat more harshly.

But weighing in a clear choice for the AFP knowing what they did about the Bali Nine, I personally think the path they chose had more potential for good than bad. Especially in setting a global standard of how nations act between different legal issues.

KH I am never going to agree with your stand here,most things for that matter.
But hidden within this thread I have found a truth.
That young man who died in the gutter, his brother about to.
That story for me was high lighted by the posters words, both seemingly lacked home support.
That very thing may have been what sent them to drugs, a home life that did not see them as human, but as property that had to behave in certain ways.
No flexibility no room to be different, no second chances.
Your way to handle drugs, make them legal, is a cop out , tells the lost the weak destroying them selves is pk.
Scott Rush should not die,but we should stop profits being made by people who will never appear in court who trade in drugs.

That in itself raises several issues Belly;

First is the users themselves, and the quality of the product they will likely recieve legal or non-legal

Second is pricing in a blackmarket setting or legalized setting (and of course who the money goes to- personally I prefer a public organization with public funding than another tobacco company.

Third is the issue of potential to remove other issues, like abandoned syringes

Fourth is the issue of the people around the user (none of the business for acquintances, but for family there would need to be new measures either legal or non-legalized.

Another issue- what if Scott Rush committed a crime there that was NOT a crime here?
What if a crime we regarded as serious here were committed by a tourist or foreigner, that similarly was not a crime in his own country?

"Another issue- what if Scott Rush committed a crime there that was NOT a crime here?
What if a crime we regarded as serious here were committed by a tourist or foreigner, that similarly was not a crime in his own country?"

Scott Rush would still have to pay the price for committing that crime.

Ignorance is no excuse. The responsibility of the traveler is to know what is a crime in another country. It's like spitting on the street in Malaysia, just don't do it. Get educated before you go to another country.

I should have also mentioned the caller to 3AW was also advocating the death penalty for drug dealers.

I think Belly that you hold a mainstream view on this issue, but you just don't understand all the factors here.

Firstly people don't distribute drugs in order to kill the end user. In fact the reverse is the case.
The last thing a drug dealer would want is that his customer should expire.
Thankfully and for the most part the criminal networks do a serviceable job of quality control. If they didn't there would be many many more deaths.

Police have recently released the results of a study showing that most recreational drugs are distributed in lounge rooms (their words) and not on street corners. Most drugs are bought from friends by friends in a social networking environment.

Modern day retail marketing has adopted concepts used by drug dealers.
For example buy 2 and pay less. A practice I think unethical incidentally.

Also we have no discomfort when pharmaceutical companies peddle drugs.
Releasing harmful chemicals onto the market and inventing conditions that they
claim their chemical cures. A few heart attacks later they withdraw their crap.

If your looking for a drug dealer whose entire motivation is profit, then look to the Pharmaceutical Companies,
whom have now stopped developing new anti-biotics
in favour of fat reducing drugs because it is more profitable.

Their entire product ranges now consists of petro-chemicals does anyone know this.

Illicit recreational drugs are supplied to meet demand in the social structure.
Baddies are attracted to this because of the huge profit opportunities. Bad they may be
but not stupid enough to wish their customers dead.
(unless of course their intention is murder).

The other factor in recreational drug supply is of course that the dealer himself, is also a user.

And because of the way we manage this situation with law,
the dealer/user is motivated by his own large cost of supplying himself.

It is all self perpetuating and the way think about this, just increases the risk for everyone.
And the massive profits continue to go to those we would wish to deter.

I must stress at this point that I am not advocate for drug use,
in fact having a greater understanding of what it is that is going on here,
would go a long way to reducing drug use,
and the crims would have to go back to robbing banks.

Thinker, again, you keep simplifying the issue as what WE should do to combat DRUGS, not what WE should do if an Australian criminal got busted doing something in another country that THEY consider a crime.

THAT is the issue- whether Australia should stick out their necks for people committing crimes elsewhere (relative to what THESE countries feel is a crime), and sabotage the other country practicing its own legitimate legal protocol, all at our own expense and to the sole benefit of the offender, or not.

I think I may be far more aware of the problem than some think.
First if a Bali citizen was caught here with a 5 tonne truck load of cocaine he/she would not be sentenced to die.
The market for drugs exists, it is big business, some use to escape a life they do not like, some want to be part of it for social reasons.
They are the victims and the family's and Friends they steal from miss use and inflict pain on.
In most places we meet in drugs can and are bought and sold, workers use drugs every day, not all but too many.
I think greed and cash keeps drugs so freely available.
Death sentences will change nothing very long terms in prison, laws to capture, take all personal property may.

Well it seems the Death Penalty DOES dissuade crime- it's just that poverty ensures people are more willing to risk it.

I keep telling you, demanding the offender pay off his own sentence afterward will just encourage him to resume crime if he cannot afford it. If he were to work it off during his time in prison it would be a different story.

And if an Indonesian person were caught importing drugs he would be charged under Australian laws;
If it's unfair, insist our own laws change, or try to demand he be charged under Indonesian law if they have a charge.

KH quote I keep on telling you.
My concern is are you aware we do not tell each other here?
We swap thoughts ideas opinions but it is not our task to tell.
It is my view we need more not less law enforcement in drugs.
Not how ever death sentences.
You speak of re offending after release, what after 30 years?
If we imposed and policed such terms, that would reduce importation and use.
If we took, and looked under every rock all suspected drug money no matter what name it was in that would reduce trafficking death will not.
An opinion not a lecture in my post.

Belly it IS an opinion on the idea- if you incarcerate someone at 20 for 20 years, they will be 40- perfectly young enough to pick up most practices in theft to make ends meet;

The repayment task only makes sense to somebody with a sense of responsibility- criminals have no such thing, but instead a gigantic sense of entitlement and an aversion to work (hence why they were in this situation to begin with). Mix this with a need to cover costs and their strongest familiarity with income being from the practice that got them jailed to begin with.

It's a good idea in theory- but opens up too many probabilities of resuming their old practices.
Hence why they should be doing volunteer work of some form, during their stay to cover costs.