America please stop the burning of Muslim Holly books.
Nazis tried to burn ideas so very few in that church yet more than their numbers could be murdered because a few hate before thinking.
I am no Friend to Islamists but know the very idea is reason for more deaths and hate.
The cartoon fiasco showed us that.
Confrontation helps no one, and if America can stop this lets hope the prosed Muslim building near ground zero can find a home further away.
Both sides need to find a better way confrontation is not it.

This is a deliberate provocation.
It will cost lives.
Nice one godbotherers.

Well I imagine that the cartoon fiasco would have made quite a few fundies think twice about heading to Denmark.
Ultimately, if locals in one area are hostile to a certain culture, openly broadcasting it in a publicity stunt in which nobody gets hurt and thus, effectively warns the other group of what to avoid, they technically did everyone a favor.
Same deal in countries where they burn effigies of Western figures I might be associated with by the locals- also taken off my own travel list.

The "ground zero Mosque" (actually a community center quite a distance away from where the towers stood) I think deserves the same planning standards as any other place in NYC, unless a generic new law were to pass to block it (even if that includes local hostilities to the project, like in Switzerland where they reject buildings that locals don't like).

Also, there are way more sides to the equation than Americans and Muslims, especially when you mention the cartoons.

It's to me not such a matter of a downward spiral of entangled hate and violence, but an increasingly obvious hostility that was potentially always going to be there, being un-covered on TV- where the most that would happen is these two groups who clearly don't think much of each other won't interact- which is a good thing- kind of like separating two fanbases of a footy much.

Let us for a start stay close to the burning of the Koran.
Clear up my stand too.
I will bring hate and spite PC insults but these are my thoughts.
I distrust Islam, feel we will fight a war one day.
I fear American fundamental Christianity too.
Not a hair splits them in the potential for harm, both would gladly kill the other, why did your God have so many faces?
This book burning is going to see MURDERS coming from a church with 50 people?
Starting what?
Build consensus not reasons for war.
Some roads only lead to war no one can know who wins a war.
I note, surely many of us do, minority's alway complain about the actions of idiotic minority's by? acting worse.
If the people get together stop this fool and his foolish supporters,and at the same time, take the hate out of that meeting place move it away .
We may progress in so many country's in the world Bible burning will only be the start.
We will see more deaths of innocents bought about by the followers of God.
What ever actions this lunatic takes, even if he backs down, the harm has already been unleashed.

There are two sides to every storey, unfortunately both sides consider the other to be dangerous to their lives and beliefs. To a great degree both are correct, the behaviour and lack of understanding by either group pushes us closer to that conflict that so many deem inevitable. I don't agree with this negative view but do concede that it is probable.
I don't understand why it is so hard to accept that a group of people have a different belief system to your own and live with different values. Why is it that both sides seem to consider it their responsibility to teach the other a lesson or wipe them out.
These are ancient methods and causes that we already know don't work. Apparently we are learning and growing as a species all the time, pity we don't show it. Where is reason, calm conversation, acceptance. They are lost yet again in religious zeal. When will we be responsible for ourselves instead of hiding behind a church or faith that continues to draw us into hateful conflicts and betray it's own cause of peace and contentment?

Come on Belly, the book-burners are just exercising their freedom of speech.

<< I distrust Islam, feel we will fight a war one day.
I fear American fundamental Christianity too. >>

I think there's a minority of Islamophobic fundamentalist Christians who would love to see a war between Christianity and Islam. Not just American fundies either - we see plenty of it here.

They're positively baying for it.

Dove World Outreach Centre.

a small Churh of little significance....."until" they declared...

"Quran Burning Day"

Suddenly, the world is polarized, Christians are threatened with death by Indonesian Muslims, uncountable expressions of deadly, threatening outrage across the Muslim world....

Unfortunately for the deniars and appeasers of this current incarnation of National Socialism style Tyrany (Islam) the central issues here are somehow..... missed.

SHARIA LAW. (Dove Website)
“The Ordained Penalties of the Sharia Law,” written by The most prominent and influential Islamic University, Al-AZhar of Egypt. This book is distributed to all of the Islamic Mosques in the United States. It says on pages 9 and 25 that adultery should be punished by stoning to death. Mohammad himself stoned men and women by his own hands. The Taliban are not extremists, but rather are genuine in that they want to apply Islamic Law.

BRAVE SOUL ? would any of you appeaser and deniars like to take a stand and say something to the contrary about Sharia law?

IMPORTANT QUESTIONS.

1/ Why would 'Christians' want to burn the Quran?
2/ Why do Muslims want to KILL Christians as a result ?
3/ What does this outrage and threats to kill innocents say about 'Islam' as an ideology?
4/ How many Muslims were killed, how many mosques were firebombed, how many Muslims assaulted as a result of Students of an Islamic school in Melbourne URINATING and SPITTING on the Bible ? (all 'zero' as far as I know)
5/ What does that tell us about 'Christianity'and it's impact on peoples lives?

So.... you might wish to consider these things folks.

One last question "Do Christians and Jews have any basis for wishing the Quran to be outlawed or burned?"

Well.. try the following and answer for yourselves:

Quran 9:30. And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allâh, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allâh. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allâh's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

See what I mean?

That's the problem, Boaz. Right there.

>>One last question "Do Christians and Jews have any basis for wishing the Quran to be outlawed or burned?"<<

Where in your spiritual literature does it tell you to make war against other religions?

Is there, in fact, any scriptural guidance, or historical precedent, that supports the actions of these idiots-who-call-themselves-Christians?

Or are we genuinely back in the twelfth century Crusading mindset?

If so, can we expect the actions of Christians today to mirror those of the soldiers back then?

But I notice you actually didn't express an opinion in your post, so I invite you to do so now:

Do you support the proposed actions of the Dove World Outreach Centre?

Christian principles brought great freedom and prosperity to America. It seems Belly is more comfortable with the poverty and misery communism/secularism has brought to Russia and many other nations. Secularism is actually as dangerous as Islam. Just ask any baby in their mother's womb and you will get the drift.

Hey runner,

I was wondering, what do you think about abortion?

Pastor Terry Jones of the Dove World Outreach Center
in Gainesville, Florida (and his 50 member congregation)
has decided to burn copies of the Koran
on September 11th 2010.
Incredibly, this has caused world-wide controversy.

"The Washington Post," Sept. 8th 2010, has an
excellent article by Alexandra Petri on the
subject. Petri asks:

"Since when do we respond by burning things that
upset us?" The answer - "For millennia actually!"
She reminds us that, "Christians were burned for
years and they didn't enjoy it... there was Joan
of Arc... there were people who thought the
Harry Potter books were the "devil's text."

"Books are supposed to be the repository of history
and cultural memory ... and the ink on their pages
will last for generations but light a match... and
BOOM - there goes the Library of Alexandria..."

Petri says:

"I think book-burning is always a sign that something has
gone awry in our civilization...
It's impossible to boil any religion down
to a single sentence, as Jones and others on both sides
of the debate have tried to do. To say "Christianity is
purely a religion of peace," is as great a fallacy as to
say "Christianity is founded on hatred." The Bible
encompasses both cloud and fire - both turning the other
cheek and the arm of the Lord that smiteth, and those who
read and believe it have variably decided to use their
swords or to beat them into plowshares..."

"Religions are efforts to explain life and reconcile human
beings to their positions in the universe, and they partake
of all the complexity of life, with its potential for
misunderstandings, exaggerations, and over simplifications.
Most uncomplicated beliefs turn out to be wrong. For
instance I thought for years that human beings reproduced
by means of storks."

"So, how about
instead of burning the Koran, we read it?
That's what I'm going to do on 9/11. I hope some people
will join me. If someone gets the book-on-CD version,
maybe they can burn us all a copy!"

That's quite good Foxy. I especially liked that last bit.

Though what does Woman's Day say about it all?

Dear Houellie,

They have yet to hear a man ask for
advice on how to combine marriage
and a career!
;-)

That must be because they don't have room with all those articles about the time-poor downtrodden martyrs of society Foxy.

Has anyone mentioned that this guy was turfed out of Germany a couple of years ago for being too fundamental. You can bet his time there with the Muslims helped to mould his views. From all the individual protests that I have witnessed in my life the crème de la crème when it to commitment was the Buddhist Monks self immolation, courageous, emotive, non aggressive. Now we have book burners seeking 5 minutes of fame and the monetary reward that comes with it. Even the deluded suicide bombers are a step up on a personal commitment basis to this book burner.

Heinrich Heine a German journalist and poet who died 1865 said "where they burn books, they will ultimately also burn people." a hell of a prophesy for his own people some 70 years later.

Belly it is indeed a stupid act not only because of the possible consequences but because it villifies Muslims and associates all Muslims with terrorism.

This book burner is a fanatic himslef by the sounds of it and as usual the normal majority have to live with the consequences of the more radical nongs on either the Christian or Islamic side of the religious fence.

While I agree that the book burning is wrong and should not be done it does show the nature of many Muslims who are prepared to riot and kill because of their insecurities. If Christians took the same actions everytime they were vilified in this nation we would have nearly as many murdered adults as their are unborn murdered by secularist.

Dear Houellie,

This may come as a surprise, but most
women don't see themselves as martyrs.

However, let's not derail this thread for Belly.

Do you have anything more to contribute to this
thread, apart from stirring, and saying you
like the last bit of my original post?

What do you think about the burning of books?

Do tell.

Foxy,

I refuse to answer your queries until you address me with witty put-downs or at the very least some verbal abuse. Those are my terms.

Well this just proves it.

Christian fundamentalists are as creepy as Muslim fundamentalists which are as creepy as Jewish fundamentalists which are as bad as all other fundamentalists.

Engaging in an exercise such as this you are aware that this will endanger lives, and achieve nothing is pathetic. The "Reverend" lunatic only has a congregation of 30 for heavens sake.

These are the same type of people that picket funerals because the deceased was gay.

If he goes through with this Koran burning, I pray to whatever god there is that the nutty "Reverend"catches on fire himself and that one of his followers films it and uploads it onto Youtube!

IF it's a crime and they do it then arrest them for it. Otherwise, we're doing nothing but giving these retarded people a podium.

To burn the Quran does seem to be a silly thing to do.
It is silly because it is pointless.
The controversy would not arise if the Moslems were not unstable
mentally. Anyone that over reacts would have a word in psychiatry that
could be used to describe them.

If the moslems burnt bibles I do not think the reaction would be more
than;
"That is a silly thing to do, because after all it is just pages of
a book that is burning, the story is still intact !".

They way they carry on demonstrates an immaturity perhaps related to
their custom of cousin marriages. It supports the findings of the
NSW Health Dept enquiry into Auburn maternity hospital.

Go to YouTube and search "Bible Burning". Interesting outcome, and not one mention on the news. I wonder why?. *cough*

Dear Houellie,

I gotta love you!

Bless You, - best laugh I've had all day,
and I really needed it!

You clever thing you!

How's that?

Angry Oak writes

'Engaging in an exercise such as this you are aware that this will endanger lives, and achieve nothing is pathetic.'

Very similar to the secularist who produced cartoons depicting Mohamed.

You write
'I pray to whatever god there is that the nutty "Reverend"catches on fire himself and that one of his followers films it and uploads it onto Youtube!'

It seems your hatred outweighs this man's.

What worries me is that there is a lot of "we" mentioned in this thread.
There aint no "we" unless we're USA Christian residents- otherwise there is as much "we" as in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

It would be unwise to sum up the relations of the Islamic and Western WorldS (yes plurals for each) as down to shows of hostilities in one slightly isolated western country as a path to bloodshed vs the alternative of active bridge-building, reconciliation and an all-round love-in.

Hell, the cartoon crisis ended up- hordes of nutcases rioted in their own countries and beat each other up to vent their anger, then they simply stopped interacting with the offending countries (including boycotts) and the countries lost interest in the toons now the offending nutters pulled their heads in (or, likely, bailed and relocated) and ceased to be an issue like before.

Personally, if loony bible-belt nutters and shariah-nutters threw down the gauntlet and went at it, that would be perfectly fine- so long as "we" stayed clear of it.
I personally would enjoy more isolation from both- and I imagine there is a gigantic majority in almost all western countries that would feel the same.

There's something about this entire fiasco
that to me doesn't make sense.

Why is the media giving Pastor Jones all
this publicity?

He's gained world-wide notoriety sparking
demonstrations in Afghanistan and Indonesia,
as a result of his declared action.

What if
the media would have totally ignored what
he plans to do? His congregation consists of
only 50 members - let them have a bonfire
night, all by themselves. Nobody would be any
the wiser, if the media refused to give this
publicity-seeking fundie the notoriety he
set out to get.

Instead look at what's happened - he's achieved
what he wanted. He doesn't seem to care that the
top US Commander in Afghanistan has warned troops
lives will be in danger if the action in Florida
goes ahead.

The media must surely take some of the responsibility for
this stupidity. All this should have simply fizzled
out, instead thanks to the media - things have really
ignited worldwide.

I guess its what sells that matters!
Sad really.

Dear Foxy,

As in most cases, I agree with what you wrote. As a guest/foreigner living in Germany - actually Cologne, where the crazy pastor had his congregation between about 1980 and 2009 (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,716409,00.html) - I should perhaps not criticize the German Chancellor.

Nevertheless, I have difficulties understanding the difference between what a crazy Westergaard did, and what a crazy Jones is going to do, as far as the predictable reaction of some (also crazy) Muslims is concerned (see http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,716503,00.html). Perhaps you have a better insight.

runner

Are you on some type of medication?

Dear George,

Thank You for your kind words and for
the two links that you gave. I read them
both with interest.

I agree with you it is difficult to
separate Westergaard's actions and those
of Jones. Both insist on claiming the
right of "freedom of expression."

However, the difference to me personally
is that I don't think that Westergaard is
a religious fundamentalist. He's a cartoonist
who, I suppose felt he was entitled to use
whatever subject he chose to ridicule.
Unfortunately, he chose a subject that
is associated with Islamic fundamentalism,
which at times can border on a scandalous
return to a medieval morality and political
fanaticism.

As for Jones - this is a different case of
a psychotic publicity-seeker - who's
thriving in world-wide notoriety.
From the websites you cited - this man sounds
deeply unbalanced. I don't think Westergaard
fits into the same category.

However, having said that I do feel that people
who enjoy the rights of free speech have a duty
to respect other people's rights. A person's
freedom of speech (and action) is limited by
the rights of others. All societies, including
democratic ones, put various limitations on
what people may say (and do).

I hope this makes sense. It's the best I can do
at present.

Dear Foxy,

Of course you are right, Jones is a religious fanatic, and Westergaard an (atheist) provocateur. However, I am sure both are/were aware of what their action would trigger, although the fact that Westergaard - in distinction to Jones - does not seem to be mentally deranged, actually speaks against Westergaard. And to a Muslim, who feels offended and urged to react violently, this distinction does not matter and is probably not even known to him. The one distinction that likely matters is that the one belongs to the hated USA, the other to a nation he probably never heard of before.

As to Ms Merkel, one thing is to tolerate pointless pranks in the name of “freedom of speech”, another to honour them.

Some interesting new information on this
Jones character:
Pastor in Koran furore accused of using 'slaves'
http://www.smh.com.au/world/pastor-in-koran-furore-accused-of-using-slaves-20100909-153bf.html

<<Mr Jones, pastor of the Dove World Church in Gainesville, Florida, runs a used furniture business with his wife, Sylvia.

While the pastor moves between two homes - a house in Slidell, Louisiana, and a holiday apartment in Tampa, Florida - his unpaid workers, motivated by their Christian beliefs, live in low-rent accommodation he owns.

Shane Butcher, who was expelled from the church for disobedience, told the Gainesville Sun he worked for the pastor's TS and Company for up 72 hours a week without pay, and meals were provided from a ''food bank''.

Mr Butcher said punishments for disobedience ranged from cleaning the barnacles off Mr Jones's boat in Tampa, to carrying a life-size wooden cross or writing out all of Psalm 119, the longest chapter in the Bible.
>>

<<Emma Jones, the pastor's daughter from his first marriage, has described her father's church as a ''cult''.>>

I CJM will not be put in a basket.
Such as runner are indeed in my honestly held view as dangerous as any Islamists.
I fear know, Murders will take place as a result of this act.
Boazy you defame yourself, your God did not say kill or hate for the sake of it.
IF today we, the world, put every God, even Boazy and runner will tell you some Gods never existed, on the toy shelf we could start to build a better world.
This thread is not about the middle ages style Islamists, it is about a bigoted foolish Christian group.
A group that will back down today, but who has already bought death by murder to unknown numbers , and yes set us on a path to a war that will come because hatred wins over compromise every time.
C J Morgan I will not take insult at your post nore will I retract the truth,some ,far too many from this group are no Friend of mine, see racism, xenophobia, and primitive methods of controlling mankind are an insult to me always.

StG I think you are wrong about that. There would be equal concern if there was a Bible burning by Islamic fundamentalists.

The burning of the Koran is probably getting more media coverage because of the link to 9/11 and the fear about reprisals.

Christians don't generally (with some exceptions) retaliate with violence to villification. Although some Christians and Islamists use their religon to create war or unrest such as George Bush's claim that God told him to invade Iraq. I think even the most ardent Christian would see that for what it is. It is not the fault of Christianity that Bush made that statement it was the idiocy of the individual.

An act can be condemned without it making a judgement on the religion.

I think it is a dangerous act, on one hand I can understand why the reverend wants to make a stand, however extreme his actions may be, but I don't agree.
Remember the fallen on 9/11 honor them not by uniting and banding together at an hour of need, but fueling hatred instead.

"Here is a book that is the central religious guidance of Islam, one that so many live by as decent human beings, but no, I will spit in their faces and burn it on account of extremest actions that resulted in the deaths of Americans."

This is the message I get from his actions.

I don't see how burning a book of beliefs can result in anything positive, whether her wants retaliation or nor he will get it. He is holding a match above spilled fuel.

The book burning could detract from the lasting symbolism of the World Trade Centre site, giving oxygen to extremists' rabid defences of the slaughter.

Further, it puts coalition soldiers overseas at more risk through the possibility that the cooperation of friendly locals could be affected by the example of anti-Islamic feeling in the US.

We are like frogs gradually being boiled in Shariah law so as not to freely express an opinion otherwise we are under threat of Fatwa. "Islam" means submission to the laws of Allah - and one of those laws is blasphemy. To burn the Koran under shariah is blasphemy against Allah and the penalty is death. Those that protest against free speech (upon which our society is civilized about) for fear of Islam's reactions are surcumming to shariah for pacificism.

Christians can take criticism without taking up the sword, which was the instruction Jesus gave.

I wonder when the survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki will be burning Bibles?

911 was a politically based event, not a religious one but this stunt will play into the hands of all those who wish to see it only in those terms.

rache if I offend you so be it.
No sorrow no nice words that post offends me.
Are you aware of the way Japan treated whole populations.
Do you know the story of the rape and butchery done to that Chinese city?
The Machine gunning of Australian nurses.
Are you aware of the torture and even eating of captured Australian soldiers.
Did you see the death toll on those Pacific Islands?
Women who had been told they would Be raped killing them selves and children rather than live.
Those bombs had they been first in the hands of Hitler may have still been killing millions.
Had Japan had them, you and I if alive would be slaves.
Spare me the truly evil PC condemning the USA for doing what it had to.
I ask this, are you aware within 2 years Japan was to be better of for its population than it ever had been.
Do you thank America for rebuilding it and Europe?
You HIGHLIGHT some comments are not balanced.

As you can see I do not mind the thread wandering, in fact it is the way we do it here.
But it is not about Islam or Christianity.
It is about a lunatic and his followers who devalue any God.
Maybe it is about the increasing danger I see in SOME followers of any God.
The thought this man is unaware even now after he says he will not do it, Murders will take place because he said he would.
I follow the National Rugby League, [ what has that got to do with this? wait]
On Monday my phone runs hot every one will tell you his/her team was robbed and the others got away with it.
My team right or wrong.
What hides within us all, every race every human that we can convince ourselves something as beautiful as the God myth was bought about.
So we can hate and kill one another.
How can our Christian posters for the most part not see the whole idea is to unite not divide humanity.
Burn that church,first hand out in friendship to say we can not continue to hate each other
Tell Me no storys about Islam I know them all lets try to turn this around.

I for one do not want to unite humanity at all, which is why I support these actions (most of all the actions of Westergaard and the other cartoonists), because they show clear as day where the divisions truly lie and WHY (keeping in mind those cartoons were a direct response to the new limitations on secular conduct as allegedly demanded by the Muslim community of THEIR countries.

I don't want to live in a society where I, an atheist, am forced to bow and scrape to irrational superstitions of every person who feels like coming in and who contribute zero to my well-being whatsoever (and rather subtract from it when they are around).
That goes to the likes that would demand action for the cartoons, and for the pilgrims that swamped Sydney in World Youth Day.

As such, it was far better that societies of secular (or outright atheist) Westerners make cartoons, societies of fanatical Christians burn books and societies of fanatical Muslims put Western guest-workers to death for inappropriately naming a Teddy Bear in order to ensure we each can live the way we want, and make it clear that it's not up for negotiation with the other parties, and agree to disagree.

Peace can only be achieved when the many civilizations around the world understand where their limitations are on what they would tolerate on their own soil, and to respect those of others, no matter how repugnant we might find them.

As I've stated in my other posts on other
threads, the major reason for restricting
freedom, is to prevent harm to others.
Like most rights, freedom is not absolute.
Most countries prohibit practices that
injure people or that are thought to threaten
to destroy society. To achieve the goal of
equal freedom for everyone, a government may
have to restrict the liberty of certain
individuals or groups to act in certain ways.

Society limits personal freedom in order to
maintain order and keep things running smoothly.

When an individual's private acts puts others
at risk, these acts should be curtailed. There
is serious concern among US military officers of
retaliation against troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.
This makes it a matter of National Security.

Pastor Jones is an unbalanced extremist who was
expelled from Germany. It's unfortunate that he
is being given the media attention that he so
obviously relishes.

King Hazza I have form, for saying much of what you just said.
See ask even my online Friends, people I respect like C J Morgan.
I am racist xenophobic and anti Muslim.
In truth none of that is true, yes Muslim intrusiveness into western lifestyle gets me going.
But not just them, many minority's get me going , some claiming I am racist ,from minority's are more racist than the KKK.
Blame education both wrong, none and very little for our devisions.
I suspect you fear as I do PC blindness, an illness that hides minority racism xenophobia, bigotry but highlights lunatics like this preacher.
Well that suits my views, we try as hard as you like, are unlikely to not be forced in to a war, against Islam.
But we will have no other choice if we look for reasons to kill not for stopping confrontation.
I do you know understand the bigotry behind the riots over those cartoons.
I come from a group who is always wrong, always the reason things go wrong.
White Anglo Saxon Protestant.
It always our fault, this time it is, one of us has channeled Hitler

The human race has only just come out of the stone age. More recently we have only just emerged from the Dark Age. We've been industrialised for only 200 years or so.

But more importantly, MUCH more importantly, many of the human race still have primitive beliefs in mythical gods to this very day. A prime example is Christians and Muslims. Normally that's quite ok, as most people simply live and let live.

But the problem is that these myth believers are sometimes radicalised, which results in some of the prehistoric religious attitudes which we've read from several posters here.

Then what happens is that this radicalisation escalates into politically/religiously correct direct action in various parts of the world where the myth believers force their myths/dogmas/behaviour on people via the application of Law. Christianity and Islam are both equally guilty. The next step for the radicalised myth believers is to directly challenge the myth believers of different religions; the result being an endless series of military confrontations both large and small, throughout history to this very day: Often done under the guise of political/nationalistic extremism. The idiot pastor in America is one such example of a radical Christian; he's doing it because he believes Islam is not the word of god, and that the Quran caused 9/11. Radical Muslims believe Christianity is not the word of God.

The problem is not Christianity or Islam.

The problem is radicalised Christianity and radicalised Islam.

The American right religious radicals are a terrible threat to world peace. At the moment they don't rule America and never have. But they have enormous influence there. Should they ever gain real power we can kiss goodbye to world peace. No doubt they'll launch a war of attrition against Islam, safe in the knowledge that they have more nuclear bombs than their enemy.

I think radicalised Christianity in America is a much greater threat to word safety compared to radicalised Islam. Both are bad and evil. But that's human nature, that's how it's been for the past 2,000 years.

Ain't religion just grand!

Belly,
I think you missed the point of what I was saying.

My point was that religion was not the sole reason behind those events.

Like all conflicts - it was motivated by economics and politics.

Dressing it up as Good vs Evil is the age-old con that is pulled on all those involved. People will fight for high-minded or even abstract concepts but nobody will give up their lives simply to help the financial bottom line of some Corporations.

In this case it's used to avoid people asking "why did this happen?".

Don't take my word for it - look up the remarks of Smedley Butler - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket - and look up the actual details of what he claimed.

rache I missed nothing your words clearly said what you thought.
I did not do my self justice in a post above.
It is well known I have no God.
And that I think we divide humanity in the name of God.
I am not blind to the damage some do in the name of God ,and the link to education.
I truly am stunned how some can forget every other God but theirs.
This morning that country I find strange but admire America morns its murdered 9/11 dead, Muslims too died there that day.
Just a few blocks away a demonstration is taking place, one side say no building the other?
Says we have the right to build.
We just as the GFC surprised and frightened us will see a war ,a true horrible war, between followers of God.
Tell me we should not try to stop it with compromise on both sides tell me our wish to be inclusive and accommodating to all is the way both sides aways act.
The very thought of burning those books comes from the very part of America I fear most.

>>> The very thought of burning those books comes from the very part of America I fear most. <<<

Belly you echo my thoughts exactly.

Fundamentalist Islam is an appalling infringement on human rights, but fundamentalist Christianity has more power, influence and potential for destruction that fundy Muslims can only dream of.

Burning holy books only achieves p1ssing everyone off, but then this is an extremist Christian's idea of protest. I'm sure Runner, AGIR and their ilk fully endorse this attack on all Muslims' beliefs.

Way good example Pastor Jones, lets return to burning women for witchcraft while you're at it?

Foxy, problem with these impositions on Free-Speech is that there comes a point where the considerations extend beyond domestic and trans-domestic harmony, and then limitations to the point where we would find ourselves being blackmailed into keeping silent in the fear we could hurt someone's feelings anywhere else in the world- based on, of all things, theology. Banning holy book burning comes too close to the police-state laws of WYD, and arguably many of the penalties imposed by scientists and philosophers who contradicted church teachings- including the theory of evolution.
Not to mention it puts a rather awkward situation for asserting gay rights when it is fundamentally abhorrent to the most basic values of most creeds.

Belly, quite right- though I think the demonstrations and blasphemies are both a direct result of impositions in the others' worlds (most definitely the cartoons). Which is why I'm more cemented in my point that these communities MUST broadcast their hostilities to one another in non-violent ways, to ensure these two bodies stay out of each others' hair. The less civility shown by the perpetrators is also helping the rest of the world see their true colors, instead of walking unaware into a conflict.

I wouldn't worry about the implications of an escalation of conflict even if it did happen, because it really is much easier to declare neutrality in a conflict than people realize- and ironically, thanks to the decreasing unpopularity of US conflicts, there is a greater chance of that happening. Remember Switzerland and Sweden, flanked by Allied and Axis (and sometimes Soviet) nations all at the same time managed to remain neutral.

Also, although 9/11 was more a result of Middle East policy than religion, I would point out that Theo Van Gogh's murder was entirely religious. Also, the abortion-bomber terrorists would likely have taking their attitudes from a non-secular discourse as well.

We currently have a lawyer in Brisbane smoking the pages of both the Bible and the Koran.

Most good Bibles are produced on rice paper which should make a good unfiltered cigarette compared to wood paper. Such does not worry me provided he owns the books. Many men in prison smoked bibles given to them and in the process found God by realising the truth of a text casually read and had their lives changed.

The truth is not the pages but the message that is expresed in living it's truth. It is the attitude and action that reflects the love for God and fellow man not the legalism held for religious icons.

KH have you thought this to the end.
If anyone is free to say what they think do what they want regardless of harming others we are doomed.
Just because you, me too, are unimpressed with radical Islam we need not behave like they do.
Smoking the Koran and Bible is a foolish self promoting act,, from a fool.
No one should commit an act that may see harm to another.
In confrontation the one who first acts with wisdom, regardless of being seen as weak is the stronger.

I would agree to an extent what you are saying Belly but the problem is the parameters in this circumstance;
Normally, I would regard acceptable parameters as spreading false information to defame someone (at least, from a position of journalistic or political stature- and this would still largely be a lawsuit issue than a crime in my opinion), and inciting violence or criminally-malicious acts, and such.

This however, doesn't fall into these things:

Instead we are discussing whether we should ban someone from performing a function that does none of the above things, nor incite violence or criminal action, nor actually correspond to hate speech, and harms nobody;
-on the grounds that it is offensive to the theological sensibilities of outside viewers, and might indirectly provoke them autonomously to violent acts.

Which although has a valid basis of preventing a domino effect of international problems, on the other hand, implies curtailing freedom of expression (in particular a form of protest) on behalf of religious fundamentalists abroad, based on a hypothetical case of violent reaction.

It would be like banning somebody from burning the flag because it might enrage some heartland patriot to start lynching people.

Or sacrificing liberty for security, at the mercy of potential retaliation from people who are opposed to us anyway.

I can guarantee that if such considerations were always enforced, our modern stance of secularism and liberty would never have occurred either, and the entire Western would would be considerably more theological than today.

Sorry bloke that is head spinning stuff.
What if the clown wanted to defecate in the street?
What if was known and got bashed because he did this idiotic thing.
Would his assailant be set free because he had rights?
I think as I have said needless confrontation is unwanted .

Simple- tough luck for the idiot that crapped, meanwhile the person who bashed him will be charged with assault. Also the crapper is vandalizing public property and committing a more profound act of public indecency.

Now I know what your thinking- that I set an artificial limit to what I consider decent and indecent- which is where it becomes relative to domestic society at large (in the same way conservative Islamic nations would consider un-scarfed women and beardless men as indecent but not say, slaughtering tonight's dinner in the middle of the street- while we on the other hand would be quite the opposite).

With that in mind, I would demand my country and its standards correspond to what *I* want, and relatively to the rest of my peers; NOT limited to what I think would be acceptable for some savage extremist elsewhere so that he would not be as tempted to kill me as he normally would be.

Why do so many in the western world not like Islamists?
Include me please in that number.
I dislike the confrontation.
The filing of streets in Europe of praying people.
The remarks from the is it pulpit about fresh meat.
The defensiveness every time some one says something we find offensive.
I have been insulted, at work, by youth from this group shouting to go and have? a hamburger infidel!
I blame education both wrong and none.
But we know better.
Confrontation will come, here in our own country.
But two lunatics have actively looked for it, why
One day long after I am dust maybe this world can learn the first law of survival must be let no God divide us and no idiots too.
No flowers in my gun I know we can not avoid reality but lets not force it.

It's rather where I'm going with this point Belly;

After the Danish Cartoons, the Minaret Bans, or the open shows of hostility by Geert Wilders and various commercials showing how 'offensive' and unsafe for practicing Islam these countries are, that are showed to audiences abroad, how many fundamentalists thinking of moving to Europe are still keen? In the past, they were guided by greed alone and thought their baggage would be accepted by a secular country (thinking 'secular' means equality for religions, and not the kemalistic kind of aversion to religion).
The only Muslims that would not care would be secular ones (the ones we'd actually want).

Even with this American guy burning books, it sends a clear message that his state is best avoided (secular muslims too though- but its their benefit to be alarmed at the TV than move in next door to an unstable Christian fundamentalist.

On the flipside, Islamists hostile to secular western culture make similar displays, protests with provocotive antisemetic signs and things people in the West may find offensive, and encouraging Westerners to think twice before trying to set up enterprises or make presences that would likely offend them (even if that is merely being there).

As a result, the 'confrontation' stops on the TV, instead of being kept secret and ending up being confrontation en MASSE, in the streets of either country, with actual bloodshed.
I see many worlds of secularism and fundamentalist religions, that absolutely won't get along, so it's important that people are aware of the things one side does the other cannot stomach, and after the shock settles, realize that this is what the other side wants and kept apart so they do not incite agitations, until a development occurs in either side to make them more compatible. They can still get along peacefully until then regardless.

It may well be we are seeing the real pain these idiots bought to life.
This morning news headline tell us Australian troops in Afghanistan are said to have burned the Koran.
Unlikely and almost surely untrue but did we give another reason to hate our troops to idiotic Islamists?
Give me no storys of their crimes I know them all, a rabbit would understand confrontation always leads to more trouble however.

Personally Belly this is WHY I think it is better to separate;

We put ourselves in a position where we try to make an occupation overseas LESS hostile towards this group by curtailing our own freedom of speech and expression;

The alternative for me is withdraw and get it back.