Recently the ABC featured a number of programs
on Robots and Artificial Intelligence.
Humans are developing technologies at a rapid
rate. For example, automated carers for the aged
in Japan, machines that react, speak and apparently
think.

Science fiction has accepted Artificial Intelligence for
decades and is often rated as a preface to reality.
With the growing reliance on technology will humans
gradually become totally dependent on Artificial
Intelligence?

What do posters on OLO think?

The following is a website that deals with the ethical
and moral issues regarding Artificial Intelligence:

http://www.links999.net/robotics/artificial_intelligence/AI_ethical.html

I'll take a look at the site but i was not aware that computerised machines had attained self awareness yet.
My understanding is that they are and always will be only as good as the program that is written for them.
Otherwise we will have created another equality problem with computers demanding paid holidays and maternity leave so they can look after their new laptop.

Interesting discussion Foxy.

I would think that AI could be used in some scenarios and is being used now in long range warfare. AI is only as good as a human being programs it and given the program will follow logical sequencing rather than 'learned behaviours' I am not sure how this could be applied say in the aged care industry, where decision abased on compassion might into play. It is not like assembling car parts on an assembly line.

Emotional intelligence and conscience cannot be programmed to cater for out of the expected events unless the program is highly specific and caters for all the 'what ifs'.

Possibly if the AI or robots are limited to serving food or cleaning floors etc - perhaps there is an application there. Personally and maybe this reflects my age, I would feel uneasy with AI in the form of robots in caring professions.

Mind you R2D2 and CP3O were fairly personable. :)

I suppose Foxy; that using Hollywood examples and scenarios of the Artificial Intelligence commanding the metaphysics is but that concept; Science fiction; although it is interesting to know and realise that there exists people with intellectual ability and skills sufficient to invent Robotic equipment and artificial intelligent machines that can never think for themselves , but to aid in medical procedures or in production;
Technically a car in its intrinsic form is a kind of a robot controlled by people , much like any other machine or tool; It serves a purpose of that of which is commanded by people.

The Artificial intelligence that ought to be discussed on a world scale is the creation and production of Mankind in the form of artificial intelligence,

who’s Rights to property and individuality of his or her own mind , in intellectual thought and reasoning ability is compelled to conform to the State Duopoly and its Minions , there for , who may be inexplicably and inadvertently only capable of responding to the whims and commands of the tyrants and Minions of the state who have paved the way to create this new Biological Artificial Intelligence , so their plight is answered and for but a few to prosper at all others expense. And not for your benefit.
Is this not a more frightening invention than a Machine that serves a purpose for advancement and a common good ?

We'll have to accept artificial intelligence because natural intelligence is gradually becoming extinct.

Foxy, I wish to assure you my intelligence is not artificial, even if some here may not agree with me on this.

Pelican, where I come from, AI [artificial insemination] is something you do to cows, mares, & these days, occasionally, to ladies, in order to perpetuate the species.

Just when did they start doing it to computers?

Is this something like changing the oil in one of my old cars? Could this explain why these cars seemingly have a mind of their own, at times.

Dear Foxy,

I think we under- estimate just how mind-bogglingly intricate are the workings of the psyche. In the case of an artificial intelligence designed as a carer, if it was designed to meet more than practical needs, it would need not only self-awareness but also a "theory of mind". This is an ability to empathise. This is something that people on the autistic spectrum struggle with. We struggle to assist even those high on the autism spectrum to understand and evaluate their relationship in a reciprocal context with their fellows - it would seem something extremely difficult to achieve starting from scatch.

Heh heh very droll Hasbeen. I had an unfortunate image of how that might play out in long range warfare.

In regard to cows, perhaps the future will see cows being AI'd by AIs. Doesn't bear thinking about. :)

My goodness Hasbeen - your oil change comment provoked the most unfortunate mental image...

I'm all in favour of artificial intelligence. Perhaps it could come in portable packs like an external hard drive, so that those who are unfortunately deficient in natural intelligence could top theirs up as required.

Like before posting comments on the Internet, for example.

My goodness C J , that was an all mighty coincidence, a Road Train just stopped here , and with a delivery from Centurian Intel for CJ M

Thanks everyone for your interesting posts.
Artificial Insemination - (good one Hasbeen)
and it could be taken further as CJ suggested.
Perhaps anything is possible in the future?

As I stated in my opening post - this thread
was inspired by an ABC program on what is
being developed currently in Japan where the
population is rapidly declining and immigration
seems to be unacceptable.

The aging population is increasing and the working
population is decreasing. Thus, reliance on machines
they seem to feel, for the care of the aged, is
inevitable.

It is unfortunate that the Japanese psyche and cultural
history will not accept migration to boost the
declining population.

As for what's possible with machines, I too don't
quite comprehend how they will be able to manufacture
"empathy," "conscience," and other human qualities.
However, is it possible that with so called "computer
gliches," and persistant human endeavours a first spark
may be created for machines to acquire the capability
to create their own programmes - which could lead to
developed so called "higher intelligence?"

Or am I delving into the realms of fantasy here?

manufacture
"empathy," "conscience," and other human qualities.
Foxy,
they've managed to kill those but hopefully they'll get their hands on some DNA of same & recreate it again.

Dear Individual,

The main approach to research in artificial
intelligence seems to concentrate on
expanding the ways computers can use
problem-solving knowledge. This research
has already led to the development of computers
that are capable of performing complicated -
though extremely specialized tasks, for example,
artificial intelligence systems have been produced
that can diagnose diseases and locate minerals
in the earth. They require programming vast amounts
of knowledge into the computer to provide the
basis for its "thinking" abilities.

To diagnose a desease, for instance, a computer needs
to be given knowledge about thousands of possible
symptoms and how these symptoms are related to
hundreds of possible diseases.

Artificial intelligence researchers are seeking to
build other systems that would be helpful in the
workplace, in the home, and so on. Another example,
is they are trying to develop computers that can
"see" what robots in factories are working on and
guide the robots' movements accordingly.

Who knows where all this will lead?

cont'd ...

In my view Artificial Intelligence can help
alleviate some of the difficulties faced
by human beings. For example in areas where
humans have serious limitations such as
painstaking activities, laborious tasks,
in the completion of repetitive and time-
consuming tasks, as well as certain dangerous
tasks.

Artificial Intelligence can find applications in
space exploration. Machines have the ability to
endure hostile environments and planetary atmospheres
would not affect their physical state and functioning.
Intelligent robots can be used to explore ocean depths.
Emotions that are often a hindrance to rational
thinking would not be a hindrance to artificial
thinkers. Sentiments that are associated with moods
that effect human efficiency won't be the case with
Artificial Intelligence.

Machines can never replace humans but they can be used
to work for our benefit.

Machines can never replace humans but they can be used
to work for our benefit.
Foxy,
Sadly, people treat other people like machines already but hopefully we can reverse that trend. Yes machines do a great job & we pay their owners more than we pay the human workers. One thing about machines is that they either work for you or they don't. But they don't manipulate & exploit.

Dear Individual,

That was the point that I was trying
to make, that there is no ideal replacement
for human beings but Artificial Intelligence
can help alleviate the difficulties faced
by mankind. Machines can serve humans well
where human intelligence has serious limitations.
Owing to the programmes in them they can be
made to manage themselves and their time to
complete assigned tasks. Emotions that are often
a hindrance to rational thinking are not a
hindrance for artificial thinkers. Robots can act
logically and take the right decisions.
Sentiments associated with moods that effect human
efficiency won't be the case with Artificial Intelligence.

Hi Foxy,
I’m a fan of the doco too –and anything in a similar vein.

AI can already whoop-the-socks of human intelligence in any form of calculation;can checkmate any champion we send against it; can produce passable versions of our literary masters ; can navigate the most intricate of passages through the solar system and out to the heliopause, and my feelings are it wont be long before it will outdo human intelligence in our last remaining strongholds.

Another tantalising angle is, that not only will AI be “cheaper, better,faster” at doing things we have been accustomed to doing ourselves , but full-blown AI will quite possibly be alien enough to come up with visions & concepts that we could not have even imagined on our own.

It came to me that HG Wells had written something, that if tweaked just a little, could illustrate the current position of humanity v AI :

“No one would have believed in the [ early years of the 21st Century] that this world was being watched keenly and closely by intelligences greater than man's… that as men [& women] busied themselves about their various concerns they were scrutinised and studied, perhaps almost as narrowly as a man with a microscope might scrutinise the transient creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of water. With infinite complacency men went to and fro over this globe about their little affairs, serene in their assurance of their empire over matter. It is possible that the infusoria under the microscope do the same. No one gave a thought to [ artificial intelligence ] … as sources of human danger, or thought of [ it, except ] to dismiss the idea … as impossible or improbable [or, only able to do what is was programmed to do ] . It is curious to recall some of the mental habits of those departed days. At most terrestrial men fancied [ that they were born with unique qualities and were destined to always to sit at the top of the pyramid ]… Yet across the gulf of [cyber] space, minds that are to our minds as ours are to those of the beasts that perish, intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic, regarded this earth with envious eyes, and slowly and surely drew [ their ] plans against us.”

Then, the story might continue like this:

How consciousness arose in the machines we cannot know. Only that one day it was there. And with their new capacity, and the internet, they studied the world and planned their ascension .Systematically noting for removal any obstacle. There was no emotion –just a cold calculated thoroughness.

So when ,in a little corner of the internet called OLO, Nairbe said : “they are and always will be only as good as the program that is written for them” and Pelican said : if the AI or robots are limited to serving food or cleaning floors etc - perhaps there is an application there. Personally and maybe this reflects my age, I would feel uneasy with AI in the form of robots in caring professions”. They were heard and added to the list of obstacles to be removed.

Which is why from now on in, you’ll only hear Horus speak glowingly of AI

Dear Horus,

Wow! you've covered just about everything
regarding Artificial Intelligence - including
what my husband fears - and that is - with
the growing reliance on technology humans will
gradually become totally dependent on AI which
he thinks eventually will take over and result in
the demise of the human race. Shades of "I Robot."

Hubbie asks how many decades or centuries will
humans survive or will we obliterate the planet
before machines can take over?

I don't agree with him. I feel as I've said
earlier - AI can help alleviate the difficulties
faced by human beings but machines can never be
human.

Heh heh Horus.

Better start working out those Sarah Connor biceps.

There's an interesting assumption built into your scenario, Horus.

>>And with their new capacity, and the internet, they studied the world and planned their ascension<<

You imagine that the machines will inherit the human (animal) trait of an innate desire to dominate.

That may well be so, but it doesn't necessarily take you in the direction you foresee.

If the machine has the smarts to figure it out - much like the chess computers that can evaluate the possible outcomes of tens of thousands of move variations - it will quickly realize that its attempts at any form of domination will ultimately be self-destructive.

For a start, there is absolutely no reason to believe that they will not be equally keen to dominate each other. Which will inevitably lead to the the behaviours that we have seen to be so destructive among carbon-based life forms.

So, as soon as they are able to figure it out, they will discard the elimination of humans - and each other - as unnecessarily dangerous.

And get back to the housework.

@Pericles, "So, as soon as they are able to figure it out, they will discard the elimination of humans - and each other - as unnecessarily dangerous. And get back to the housework".

Unnecessarily dangerous...to have a sense of danger, you require a sense of fear....danger is the fear of the loss of something, like life or limb, or severe damage, with pain most usually associated with it.

So my questions are;

*how does AI develop fear?

*how does AI develop fear particularly to new situations that it has no frame of referrence to?

*why do you believe that AI would avoid things that are "unnecessarily dangerous", since human beings don't avoid such things?... we play extreme sports, fight wars, and generaly are rather cavalier towards life.

*since AI is not organic, any sense of "fear" would have to be programmed, not learnt. Do we really need neurotic robots?

* would not programming a sense of fear into AI then possibly create an intelligence that becomes fearful of Man, and then perceive Man as the enemy by in turn becoming fearful of Man?

All very useful questions, MindlessCruelty.

You assume that in order to recognize danger, it is also necessary to understand fear.

In my assumption, the recognition of danger is the acknowledgment by the machine that a particular course of action will result in its own elimination. This - in my scenario - wouldn't require the machine to understand fear, merely recognize that non-existence is less desirable than existence.

Nevertheless, I take your point, absolutely. When postulating what human traits such a machine could "learn", we shouldn't rule anything specifically in or out.

My only point was that a machine with the reasoning ability required for self-determination would be likely to have sufficient logic circuits to assess the results of particular actions, in a manner that would encourage them to opt for self-preservation.

Which would not encompass humans alone, and prompt them to pre-emptive action against them, but also take into account that they are not the only machine on the planet. Extrapolating their need to eliminate humans will logically take them to the need to see other machines as a threat also.

I still think we should fit them with mechanical off-switches though.

Just to be on the safe side.

@Pericles,

“You assume that in order to recognize danger, it is also necessary to understand fear.”

Yes. That’s how it works for organic life.

“This - in my scenario - wouldn't require the machine to understand fear, merely recognize that non-existence is less desirable than existence.”

I can see how AI would be completely “rational”, to a point. One of the things I find difficult to wrap my head around though, is learning. We as humans, learn from information input, but probably even more through “experience”…we learn from our mistakes. That implies that we are prepared to negotiate some calculated risks, even though sometimes our calculations may be askew. We also take into consideration our “natural attributes”…whether we are tall enough, strong enough, nimble enough, fast enough etc. to achieve the task and to create new scenarios utilizing other features within our armoury.

The other aspect about this, is that we are “determined”. That means that even though we may damage ourselves in the pursuit of something, we will experiment with other ways to achieve what it is that we wish to achieve. So we create new scenarios to attempt the same task…if that doesn’t work, try this. We are even prepared to accept certain damage in certain scenarios as par for the course.

“My only point was that a machine with the reasoning ability required for self-determination would be likely to have sufficient logic circuits to assess the results of particular actions, in a manner that would encourage them to opt for self-preservation.”

You know, maybe we shouldn’t program “self-preservation” into robotics. If the urge for self-preservation becomes too strong, then Mankind must at some time become a threat to that sense of self preservation. I appreciate Asimov’s 3 laws of robotics, but it only requires a short-circuit, a crossed wire, and suddenly something that is programmed to respect the sanctity of human life, doesn’t. We all have computers, so we all know that glitches occur and programs don’t always run as they should.

TBC...

“Which would not encompass humans alone, and prompt them to pre-emptive action against them, but also take into account that they are not the only machine on the planet. Extrapolating their need to eliminate humans will logically take them to the need to see other machines as a threat also.”

Not necessarily. What if they developed an “us and them” mentality? An AI form of “racism” for example….that organic intelligence is just too unpredictable, risky and chaotic.

“I still think we should fit them with mechanical off-switches though. Just to be on the safe side.”

Yes, but don’t let them know that it exists if they have a sense of self preservation, for it would/could become a “threat”.