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The Forum > General Discussion > a well hung parliament

a well hung parliament

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Antiseptic,

The problem with what you are saying is that there is no evidence to support it. Yet the numbers do support reduction in suicide of men because of the mental health initiative.

As is always true of change, people are liable to forget or even discount the very positive and continued outcomes of sometimes very simple steps. Taking men as an example, it was not so long ago that to admit any anxiety, stress or mental 'deficiency' would have been quite impossible. If told to a doctor it would likely have been dismissed with an embarrassed cough, or "Mate, develop a thicker skin or take some leave if you have it." It was impossible for men in positions of trust, especially in politics or business, to admit anything, even to their wives and for trades or blue collar workers, no chance!

Fact is, it remains very, very hard for men to go against the conditioning and insensitivity they were exposed to as a routine in their youth, when growing up and even when they are seniors.

One of the really big discoveries for improving men's health was that although they were interested in their health they were confronted by a system that for whatever reason (and there are many) didn't really mean it when men were encouraged by brochures to get examinations and it wasn't particularly rewarding when they did. Men knew that instinctively and things still have a long way to go.

Never underestimate the difference made by brave men like Jeff Kennett coming forward.
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s1152967.htm

Returning to the research report linked to by C J Morgan, not only is it obviously deficient in fact and its methodology is suspect, but the authors themselves acknowledged major limitations in it (at pages 17, 25, 44 and 45 from memory, but easily checked).

Frankly I smell a rat in the coincidence of the sloppy 'research' being released now by the two economists, one of whom is a newly elected Labor MP. Mental health funding is up for dibs and there are uncommitted independents around (fewer today).
Posted by Cornflower, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 10:59:47 AM
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Cornflower:"The problem with what you are saying is that there is no evidence to support it. Yet the numbers do support reduction in suicide of men because of the mental health initiative."

I don't think the two things can be treated separately. There may nave been a transfer to other means, which allows the mental health initiatives time to work. They can only work if there is recognition that a problem exists. The common lament from loved ones left behind by suicide has always been "I didn't know anything was wrong", which seems much more likely if the person can simply get drunk and pull the trigger. Many young men (and older ones) have done so.

I was a long-time rifle-owner, but I didn't bother getting a license after the Howard gun laws, since I didn't have one at the time. I've not noticed the lack.
Posted by Antiseptic, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 11:17:46 AM
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Antiseptic,

As I have said in other threads and on different subjects, I don't mind government spending large sums of money provided there is evidence of positive desired outcomes and value for money is obtained. That will never be likely where political cynicism, emotion and the media drive policy.

That is what spin and political correctness are all about, avoiding the need for evidence and proof. Put your own critical faculties and judgement into neutral and let them do the thinking for you. After all it is much easier to be a Lemming than to fly where Eagles dare.

A second theme of mine simply put, is freedom. If there was a Liberal Party in more than name, there would be a champion for that, but alas that is not the case and probably never was, although Ming sometimes gave in to fairness. Labor and the Greens are no better in that respect.

That brings me to your comment that you have no interest in shooting sports and have no use for a firearm as a tool. That may be the case, but by itself it does not justify your rejection of the right of others to own and use firearms.

Contrary to the 'red neck' name calling from the anti-gun lobby, whose membership and sources of funding are dark secrets, the shooting sports in Australia have a very fine tradition of exemplary law-abiding conduct and inclusiveness. By way of examples, there are many women members (full members at that) and people with disabilities.

It suited Howard to ruthlessly brand these very ordinary and upstanding members of society as likely criminals and he wasted a billion dollars plus in doing so. At the same time he made it easier for criminals to do their worst and the drug trade has bloomed.

contd..
Posted by Cornflower, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 12:35:17 PM
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contd..

In another thread you are horrified that NAPCAN is indirectly labelling all men as possible child abusers and making them responsible for the wrongdoing of the few. You are worried about prejudice and stereotyping against men and you and you should be. However on the other hand you yourself have a blind spot in respect of law abiding (licensed) gun owners and would join in the hysteria of others with a secondary agenda in mind.

I do not intend at this stage to revisit the numbers and references I quoted, having provided more than enough evidence to show the publicised report for the crock of proverbial that it really is.

Pardon the call to order, but it is needed where political correctness rears its ugly head.
Posted by Cornflower, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 12:36:38 PM
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Cornflower:"you yourself have a blind spot in respect of law abiding (licensed) gun owners and would join in the hysteria of others with a secondary agenda in mind"

I don't think that's at all fair. I have no problem with other people owning firearms and if I felt the need or even the desire I'd get myself a license and buy one. I can't see how that's in any way relevant to the issue of suicide, which is all I've commented on here.

There's no hysteria on my part, just a recognition that impulsive behaviour can more easily lead to bad outcomes if the means to act on the impulse is available. Moreover, those around have more time to recognise symptoms and help if those means are not easily accesible.

The Howard laws required people to have proper storage facilities with proper locks and separately locked enclosures for the bolt, and that ammunition had to be stored separately, IIRC. That means a fair sequence of events between deciding to top yourself and having the means to hand when compared with having a shotty under the bed with a round in the breech or in the box alongside. Think of it as a safety analysis problem: the risk of someone using their weapon to do themself harm may be low, but if it occurs, the hazard presented is very great-few people survive such an attempt. That's why we put fences up at known jumping spots, to the disgust of those who miss the view.

On the subject of individual liberty I'm very much on your side, but it has to be regulated to some extent. The problems occur when the intrusion is not proportional to the risk and hazard presented.
Posted by Antiseptic, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 1:54:02 PM
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Antiseptic,

So you imagine that where a person is clinically depressed to the point of suicidal ideation he is going to just 'snap out' of his depression because the gun is a minute away in his safe and not beside his bed?
Posted by Cornflower, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 4:11:27 PM
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