Sadly I reside in NSW and an hour ago I opened my electricity bill for the winter period. It is the highest I have seen in my life, $1437, same period last year was $710. I thought it a mistake but the neighbour said theirs arrived yesterday and it was $1200 from just over $500 for the same period last. They called to check if it was correct, yes it is and the meter had been read so no guestimates.

The fairly new local shop keeper and purveyor of many things frozen complained last week that his electricity bill will be hitting $45k this year but when he moved in two years prior the bill was $25k and had been stable for years. His solution is to ditch some freezers and he has, what else can he do. His corner shop just got $20k year taken from it, and this guy does not drive a beamer.
What happens to prices if a carbon tax is introduced federally? Vavavoom I would suggest.

Consider the waste from NSW labor over the past 6 years let alone the whole term. Just one recent example is the metro light rail. It never started and is dead and gone but it has cost us a minimum of $600 million and not a sod was turned. We should have kept control of our destiny and paid for the infrastructure to the grid in exactly the same way we are paying for it now, through the nose, but at least we would own it. Labor has sold everything we own and we are still no better off.

I travel to most states regularly and NSW is at the bottom of the barrel. My companies return in June reflects the sad truth. QLD+18%/VIC+20%/SA+16/WA+19/ and NSW+4%. Nothing altered in the marketplace to accommodate a particular reason for the growth so the reflection is of disposable income and consumer confidence. NSW is consistently last in the KPI of the compared states economies; Tassie creams us pound for pound for god sake.
NSW is dead someone bury us please.

Thank you Sonogloin for this discussion.

During the Howard years the push for privatisation was widened to include profit making institutions/monopoly's such as
Telstra, Banks,Power Supply, Gas, Water etc.

Labor State Govt's were also responsible for such behaviour but the clincher
(and the reason for the ridiculous size of your bill Sonogloin)
is changes made to the Trade Practices Act by the Howard Govt.

As a sweetener to the prospective purchasers of such essential services monopolies,
Howard introduced "a new notion" to the TP Act in that
"profit was no longer held by the bounds of limitations".

A "charge what you can get notion" was now, a fair proposition for a business operator.
Even more so if your business is an essential services monopoly.

What you pay for electricity depends upon which business/cartel holds your supply contract. And who could fail in such a business where increasing profits are guaranteed
by the sheer control you have when being the supplier of an essential public utility service.

Another symptom of these changes made federally by Howard, is one small business supplier wants $23 for something that is $16 elsewhere.
Petrol goes up and down up to 16 cents a day without rhyme or reason.

The reason is, "because it can" under the current TP Act and therefore is set to continue
to rise along with the greed of the business operator now in control of your essential electricity supply Sonogloin. Or petrol etc, even grocery cartels abound.

Thank John Howard/Peter Costello as caveat emptor now reigns supreme.

And banks tell you in advance that they are going to put up interest rates beyond those of the Reserve bank to cushion the blow

Hay thinker, I don't know who you pay your bill to, but I'm in Qld, where the taxpayer still generates our power, & all rip offs are courtesy of labor.

15 years ago my cost of hot water wads $14,00 a quarter, with 5 people, 3 of them young ladies, with long hair. Now, with just 2 using it, the power consumption is down somewhat, but the bill is now $82.00 per quarter.

And these idiots think they can push this rip off up even further, with a carbon trading scheme. I won't say over "my" dead body, but the thought of some such does get attractive.

We here in Melbourne have just had the same with our water. Used less than last bill but my bill is double :(

It's becoming too expensive to live in this society, I can't afford what were once considered standard services for our citizens anymore.

Once they bring in the carbon tax, it will be bye, bye for us, back to candles and a trip to the local creek for a wash!

Is this what that trailer park trash refers to as moving forward?

That's certainly a huge power bill, sonofgloin. Indeed, I'd think that $710 is pretty high - let alone $1437!

I hope that's for a business, rather than your home...

Dear CJ,

Welcome Back!

Your voice of reason has been sorely missed
on this Forum!

Such a relief to see you posting again!

It's cheered me up heaps!

Dear SOG,

Your bill seems outrageous!

Is it a business or a home?

Dear Sonofgloin, half a dozen people in my state experiencing the same situation as yourself, work colleagues and myself. All have reported double their Bills for the same period with no changes in household/domestic scenes.

I advised all of them to demand readings for those Accounts as they are required to pay them. If averages, and not readings, their energy providers are wrongfully charging.

A girlfriend of mine received their Gas bill which had gone through the roof literally! Of all years! Her hubby is a tradesman who is extremely ill [4 months off work no pay] and they rely on her small wage with many children. Nevertheless, the heating was not used during the day by him. I have assisted them in any way I am able over the past few months; the bills they are currently being ripped off on, has been disputed.

$710 to $900 is pretty standard for a household of four no?
That's what ours is. We have now resorted to not turning our heating on (reverse cycle split system) and yet the bill still gets higher. We simply cannot afford $300 a month just to run a few lights, two computers, one TV and a fridge/freezer. Nothing extravagant going on here, the power in Victoria has become a joke!

How many of the people, who have posted above, have checked their electricity BILLS and identified themselves, their full legl name of the PERSON on their Bill.

Has the supplier abreviated or added to your name by placing Mr or Mrs before your name or in all upper case letters.
Is this the legal name that you can identify on your birth certificate ?

Try and get the provider to correct abreviation of your name and you will find they refuse to send BILL to the legal PERSON.

Your BC identifies you as being born and the Birth was registered with the Registry of Births Deaths and Marriages in that State.

Your full legal name in all upper case is your legal PERSON and this is the trading entity that you must provide to the corporations you deal with.

There is no reason why they have to identify you as male of female so why use Mr, Ms or Mrs before your name, it is not part of your legal name but if you accept this alternative identity you will loose your rights as a PERSON.

This has been tried in Qld and they refuse to change the name they use on the BILL.
The Local Council does exactly the same with the Rates Notice and the people from the Council who write to you demanding the money owing do the same as well, they refuse to proply identify themselves with the full legal name of the PERSON who allegdly signs the letters.

If they are not sending the Bill to the correctly identified LEGAL PERSON who is responsibe for the purchase contract of the electricity why accept the Bill as being one that you are required to pay.

Have you ever agreed to the increased additional cost of the power and did you agree to pay what ever they wish to CLAIM every month. The Councils in Qld are doing exactly the same with the rates and they are going up and up every year regardless of what you earn or agreed to pay the previous year.

JJ

CJ and Foxy it is a domestic bill, 3 adults and 3 kids.

I'd get them to check it again, if I were you sonofgloin.

I've just paid mine, last week, and it was $678.40, compared to $995.03 for the equivalent quarter last year. Possibly due to three weeks away this year.

But the year before that, $844.

In fact, I have in front of me records going back to 1996. That year, it was $852.

I'm with Energy Australia, by the way.

Sounds like you got a dodgy bill.

sonofagun while no one should compare it with todays events NSW ALP is a disgrace.
I have highlighted my views from within the party and here for some time.
At state conference and in my workplace, just this morning e mails went to 80 addresses at workplaces.
One message,see this mob put prices up, SO THEY COULD SELL power generation and distribution.
They ignored conference voting it down, recruited the best of this states union leaders to stop him fighting them.
In 2002 my bill was $52 a quarter, I live on my own, Winter was half more.
Last year same use it was $250
Last bill? $300
I use no lighting power it comes from the sun, no heat it is wood fire no cooking it is gas.
In march, we you and I get to throw this , gee can not say that, wish I could.
Greens CJM are getting the best ever result, my campaign letter reminds those who got it that state ministers will not even meet unions, an upper house controlled greens is the only insurance workers have the ALP members will be able to meet in a coffee cup.
That is my chance to get revenge not today.

My last electricity bill here in WA works out to 3$ a day, for
15 units or KW/H per day. So around 20c/kw/h. How much does
elecricty cost per unit in NSW?

I gather that in Germany they are paying well over 60c kw/h,
so I'm not complaining, but we can in fact expect power charges
to increase, as more of our energy in Australia switches to gas
wind etc, rather then coal fired generation.

Electric hot water systems chew alot of power, mine is solar,
which saves heaps, for much of the year.

Last year, after installing a new reverse cycle system, I started
using it on the heat cycle fairly often and boy did that make the
meter spin! So, a cosy wood fire is it for heating, most of the
time.

Solar drying of clothes, those clothes dryers chew heaps of power.

The other new toys that consume a fair bit are plasma screens.
I went for an LED screen, which they tell me are far more
efficient.

At 20c/kwh, I don't think we are being overcharged here in WA.

This is fascinating. At our business we have a facility whereby people can pay their power bills over the counter, and I have to say that very few indeed are above $500 a quarter. Yes, larger households tend to have the higher bills, but that doesn't explain the apparent difference with the figures that are being quoted here.

Our quarterly electricity bills are rarely more than $200 - but then again it's mostly just the two of us and we're both greenies. Mind you, we don't have airconditioning, clothes dryers, dishwashers and a flat screen TV in every bedroom, and I cut my own wood for heating.

It seems to me that the high energy costs that people are paying are a combination of price gouging in the wake of privatisation, and the increasingly profligate domestic consumption of electricity.

If you think it's bad now, wait until 'Peak Energy' really starts to bite. I recommend 'voluntary simplicity' as a long term strategy :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_living

Thanks for the kind words, Foxy.

It is alarming that we all experience such cost differences in our bills for presumably
similar usage habits and services.

It's because consumers are fair game" under the current Trade Practices Act.
Pricing no longer needs justification or explanation, and wages have stalled due
to the remnants of "workchoices".

People living with an existing individual contracts can look forward to
no rises or adjustment's for inflation in their pay in the near future either.

But prices for essential services will continue to rise beyond inflation.

SOG, if the state Gov't is price gouging in Qld, no wonder their unpopular
but this is also because of unhealthy trade practices laws. Legally they can gouge away.

The notion that market forces is the be all to end all, is a myth.
Because in reality,"excessive corporate power leads to exploitation every time".

So be exploited electricity users this is the way we think in todays Australia.

Sorry SOG I mean't Hasbeen

C J Morgan, "Our quarterly electricity bills are rarely more than $200 - but then again it's mostly just the two of us and we're both greenies. Mind you, we don't have airconditioning, clothes dryers, dishwashers and a flat screen TV in every bedroom, and I cut my own wood for heating."

It is hypocritical to preen yourself as a 'greenie' for your lower power bills, while you make up for the lost BTUs by burning wood for heating, creating a smoke pall in the process. When the Greens' ETS tax bites through high electricity charges for the pensioners and low income earners it will be a case of "I'm alright Jack, just throw some more logs on the fire", huh?

More Greens' pragmatism no doubt, but then the environment and sustainability is their short suit, not anywhere as important as their idealistic and conflicting social policies.

Hi Cornflower. I'll ignore the snark and just correct your misinformation. Modern combustion heaters are actually the most environmentally friendly heating option available, at least for those of us who live in non-urban areas. Since I collect the wood from long-dead trees on our own property, our heating is virtually carbon-neutral.

Yes, smoke is a problem that makes wood heaters unsuitable for urban areas, but where we live it's not a problem - particularly since the type of heater we have emits virtually no smoke once it's lit. Our house is also well insulated, which further reduces the amount of heating we require. Besides which, in terms of smoke pollution, have you been to the Latrobe or Lower Hunter valleys lately?

The fact is that energy costs are going to inevitably increase in the near future, and I don't see any sustainable alternative other than reducing demand. Even if Australia moved to nuclear electricity generation, it would be much more expensive than current prices. If you're really concerned about pensioners and others on low incomes, perhaps you could consider living in a smaller house with consequently lower energy needs.

Lastly, any ETS that is likely to be introduced in Australia will be an act of an ALP government, not the Greens. Of course the Greens will use whatever influence they have to try and ensure that such a measure would actually be effective, rather than just window-dressing as the woeful effort by the Rudd government was.

Have a lovely day.

Hello All. I would like to say that I really do enjoy these kinds of threads.

..

Posted by RawMustard, Friday, 20 August 2010 7:31:36 PM
" ... Once they bring in the carbon tax, it will be bye, bye for us, back to candles and a trip to the local creek for a wash! ... "

Aah indeed that makes me chuckle. Here in Indo in the rural areas, a bathroom and scheme water is indeed considered to be a financial loss. All the locals go down to the river, hang on the fast flow grate and have a wash AND not just a wash, but a poo and a wee too! This in turn goes through a number of "bio filters" and then on into the rice field. Some of you may like to consider that before you have your next "Nasi Goreng -> Steamed Rice Fried -> Fried Rice"

Snicker Snicker

It's actually a really nice way to have a clean bum poo AND much preferable to a smeary tissue poo bum.

Snicker Snicker

Hmmm .. I don't know how effective the bio filters are visa vi pathogens are though AND worse still, they also wash their motor bikes direct into the system in the same way. Regrettabley, they won't be told about the potential health hazards of this.

..

Re candles, we use a bit of seconds, filtered for the chunky bits, old cooking oil, and a twisted cotton wall ball fed through a nail hole in a beer bottle top/cap in a left over "chinese special" tea light candle base holder which have so much additive in them these particular ones that in addition to burning out in about 15 mins flat, they also catch on fire. My BeLoved likes to use them as bbq fire starters. So long as you don't let the wick burn for lack of fuel, these traditional candles last forever.

I am awaiting my power bill as my last one came just before the price rise. Am not looking forward to it but my average bill has always been 170 - 200 a quater. I am left to wonder where everyone uses their power? We are a family of four and i have no gas, two freezers as i kill my own meat, even my stove is electric. I can only say that the big saver must be the solar hot water.
Over all i thought the way the power companies and state governments used the focus on ETS and carbon price to slip the price up to help pay for the crumbling infrastructure that they have done nothing about for decades was very clever. The blame was thrown at the federal government unjustly as these rises have nothing to do with carbon pollution.
Maybe it's time we all face up to what we are costing the environment and what it costs to maintain these thing that we have taken for granted for so long. As our greed as a society grows we all seem to forget that someone has to pay for it.

As a household of 3 we eat mostly at home, cook mostly on gas and use only one 15kg clean weight bottle of gas costing about $AU8.50 per month or more. We also bbq extensively on 2nds construction site wood which I saw then split to 2 sizes - start up and log.

..

Electricity for a standard house of 2 adults and one kid costs about $AU40 and that includes me running a 3/4 horse power a/c pretty much non-stop.

..

Electrical elements are hell consumers, and we have disconnected the 1000watt backup system from the solar hot water heater. Keeping the panel clean is v.important for efficiency and after a dust storm definitely will need cleaning. We made big savings after retiring the electrical coffee maker in favor of a morning boil up in the pot and transfer to the thermos and also a defective rice cooker.

..

I have individual switch, surge protected power boards so as to NOT leave my devices running in standby mode all of the time, which adds to my savings.

..

Indeed, in my understanding, if you are going to regulate one side of the economic equation ie in the form of workers, minimum wages and pensions, then you also need to regulate the necessities, else indeed under a greed inspired so called free market model business's will charge what they believe people can afford to pay, and not a reasonable and generally accepted level of profit on top of their net expenses.

..

I note 20+ years ago the CEO of Garuda used to ride his pushie to work with everyone else. Now he needs to have a stretch limo and entourage. Hmmm ..

..

In order for people to spend on retail luxuries they need to have savings and in order to have savings when in receipt of pensions and fixed wage rates the necessities need to be regulated, in my opinion.

It comes down to what one considers the Australian standard to be?

What may one reasonably be able to achieve/acquire after a lifetime as a minimum earner?

Yabby:>> My last electricity bill here in WA works out to 3$ a day, for 15 units or KW/H per day. So around 20c/kw/h. How much does
elecricty cost per unit in NSW?<<

Yabby my bill is exactly $1437(there is a hundred or so from the last bill, so this quarter was $1304. That is for 802kWh so the kWh rate is $1-62kWh. Solar water heating is the way to go thanks for the advice.

CJ,

Wood from your own property!...and you claim to be a greenie huh?
Have you any idea how much damage you may be doing to habitats?

Go stand in the naughty corner.

Me I just put on another jumper and complain a bit more. Like here no body listens any way.

Glad you decided to come back.
PS your lot will be the big winner tonight
pity our local green candidate was virtually invisible during the campaign.

http://www.integral.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/ba917780405ac16db1fdb9dccb7f5ab5/2010+IE+Energy+Price+Guide_v3.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

Sonofgloin, something seems fishy to me, about your bill.

I just googled NSW electricty charges and the above from
Integral are claimed to be around 21c per kw/h, plus 50c
a day access charge.

DreamOn:>> It comes down to what one considers the Australian standard to be? What may one reasonably be able to achieve/acquire after a lifetime as a minimum earner?<<

DreanOn, My expectation of a living standard in a first world nation such as Aussie is simply not to go backwards. My expectation is that technology should secure supply and bring it to us at a price that percentage wise means we are not paying more for electricity than we did twenty years ago. Technology brings cost cutting in every industry except power generation and the petroleum industry, funny that.

Yabby re my previous post the kWh is incorrect, I have called Integral energy and they are looking into the issue, it looks like my bill will end up about 40% more than last year rather than the 80% the bill reflects, I am still not happy about the 40% rise.

Belly the 1980's was a decade of corporate excess and a profit at any cost mentality that changed the moral compass of business ongoing. I believe the moral compass of both the major political parties also altered from that time on. The macro became the focus and the micro had to fend for itself. Our Australian Labor party was formed by men who believed in the micro, how everyday life was for the pleb. It was as important to the Labor party as was the state of the nation.

But generational change in both parties has seen the pleb become a commodity, to be purchased once every three years with spin so deceitful that it makes the authors blush. This change has not impacted to the same extent on the Liberal party as it has on Labor because the Liberals always gave the plebs just enough. So we looked to Labor to give us our fair share, if not a little bit more. But the current crop of university desensitized ex lawyer’s Labor now has running the show have as much in common with the ordinary bloke as has Malcolm Turnbull, bugger all.

Belly I hope your party finds its way forward by taking some steps backwards to the party it was. You’re a good bloke Belly.

I thought it might be, sonofgloin.

>>...the kWh is incorrect, I have called Integral energy and they are looking into the issue<<

It caused me to sift through my bills, though, to see what has happened over the years in my neck of the woods.

The earliest bill I have been able to track down is from 28th July 2005 (yes, I know. Very sad)

The tariffs then ranged from 10.3c/kWh to 12.3298c/kWh. Overall, including the daily charges and GST, this averaged out at 12.8c/kWh.

Last week's bill, dated 29th July 2010, showed the current tariffs, to be 8.0c, 13.6c, and 36c per kWh, Off Peak, Shoulder and Peak. There was in fact a price rise on 1st July of between 6% and 11%, with the Peak taking the biggest hit.

However, my average is still only 17c/kWh, a 33% rise over the five years.

That's around 5.9% p.a.

Sonofgloin, if you are paying around 20c per kw/h, I doubt if
anyone is ripping you off. If your powerbill is 1300$, then
either there is a mistake somewhere, or something is chewing
huge amounts of power in your house, that you are not aware of.

I looked at some international comparisons and given our
high wages and benefits, Australian power charges are not
unreasonable.

That is in fact one of our major costs. We are a large country
and stringing out those power poles for those huge distances,
paying staff top $, plus all their many benefits, would not
be cheap.

But yup, try a solar hot water system. I installed my first one
in the early 80s and it has paid for itself many times over.

Sonofagun in 16 months I will hang up my high vis jacket for the last time.
But never my passion for my union and party.
You if a part of both can not have too much passion, those who came before me had a great deal.
Some who walk with me have as much.
My NSW mob are lost, so they should be, almost every one of them.
I truly think self interest murders passion, and I await the March night that will more than match last night, the difference?
JOY! I will love every second of it, why? I love the ALP of yester year, look forward to the one I will not live to see, tomorrows.
I run a recycle septic system it takes power, hot water is off peak, fridge freezer and washing machine.
Yabby this state, my lost mob, have increased costs to sell its rank and file followers and our power out.
First big spend after work is full solar for me, I will not get my money back but be free of slugs like them.

LOL examinator - I'm suitably admonished. Part of our place is degraded grazing paddocks that were cleared up to a century ago. Fortunately, they left the timber in piles which I'm still harvesting, rather than just creating big bonfires. In my defence, we've planted literally hundreds of native trees and shrubs over the past 10 years as part of our own little bush regeneration project :) In any case, we're lucky enough to be surrounded by National Parks that constitute preserved habitats for many endangered species of plants and animals.

Also, I'll bet that our Granite Belt winters are rather more severe than at your place - huge frost here this morning! Thanks for the welcome back :)

i love/the way you force/me..to think..oliver

take/cockroaches...as an egsample../
more specificlly..the myth..that they will out survive..humanity....realise..thats a hypothesis..a theory...

[even if..you take/god out of the picture...human nature..has survival-instinct]...can live in the dark..eating cockroaches..

if need be...[we could even farm..them...or burn them for warmth]..

human ingenuety...can over-come most obsticals..dont sell your brr-others short..[we/are..at the same time..more smart...or dumb..than any could presume]

<<If a god stopped it,..It would breaking Its own rules>>says the flea to the elephant...[god does as good choses to do[if he can smite..he can stop/change..anything he pleases.

<<Said God/lets 10,000s/hundreds of thousands..of people die each year..in natural catastrophies>>>BECAUSE..he knows dead aint dead.

<<Besides,/my point was-that..other animals are better adapted than we are>>>how come they arnt...'at the top-of the food-chain..then'...dont dismiss your others so lightly

<<given the certain/various circumastance.>>>humans/seem to rise..to the challange

<<Religion/sees..humans have as being.."special">>>and science sees us as mutants/medicine ses us as lab-rats...govt ses us as tax-payers..big business sees us as a cash-cow.

<<And we are:..Yet/we are..only in specific contexts.>>yes as suits/their adjenda...or as they se ways to make us suit their vairios...unending..needs

<<There/is no guarantee..that the DNA/of some bioform..1,000 meters under a heat-vent/under an ocean..will be around..after our DNA's descendants/are long gone..>>of course not....

but it is likely..that he will/be...
and there is a certainty..he shall still be
a bio-form..with-in..his genus...just as god gave him to be.

'to whom much is given'
dosnt apply/to those to whom..was given so little
they have the nature/of the beast..till their spirit...seeks something different...

one day..it will feel/
see..the light/
decide it'is..good

...and evolve...SPIRITUALLY..into a higher incarnation..in the light

till we seek to do better...
god gives us glimses of better ways..that we chose to do better

this human/life..is the highest evolution...
[in the flesh]..which..our spirits can concieve

its all about knowing/our loves
then defining..it via our living..[the way]

Now, I don't mind blaming Howard for anything he was responsible for, but do lets dig deeper into the memory banks here.

It was Hawke-Keating who started selling off the Crown Jewels, not Howard.

And it has been state ALP governments that have continued it.

During the Goss years electricty was 'corporatised' in a prelude to selling it off, which Bligh is now doing, along with railways.

Bligh will be swept from government, if she survives this joke of an election now unfolding that is.

And, it was Rudd, Goss, and Coaldrake et al, who locked into the Hawke-Keating neo-liberalism of Thatcher/Reagan that brought us all of this 'brave new world' of 'globalisation'.

Which is why Rudd sounded so very empty, and a total liar, when he tried to pretend he was not a neo-lib.

As for the carbon tax, there is an element within it for redistribution, but the idea is to reduce consumption by making it cost more.

That is a different matter to the profit gouging referred to above though.... which is why monopolies in essential services should never be gifted to private enterprise.

The Blue Cross

You speak the truth and it has taken the Australian public only about 30 years to realise that neither the Libs or Labor are governing for the average schmo, they are governing for themselves and corporations.

My conscience is clear, voted Greens. Maybe we'll get a government that passes on the cost of pollution to the polluters, not gonna hold my breath.

CJ Morgan

Like you I try and conserve as much as I can. I live in a rural area and there is more than enough fuel on my property for my wood burning stove. I am constantly lopping trees to contain their growth and there is too much for me to consume so I think in that respect I am carbon neutral, because it is all stuff that I have planted originally.

With the help of the government I replaced my hot water system with a solar one and have never turned on the booster, so my hot water costs me nothing. With the help of the government again, I had a 1 Kw solar power system installed and my quarterly bill during the summer months was only eight dollars, excluding the off-peak pool pump (my one extravagance as I swim every day all the year round) This tariff 33 was about $100. The Winter bills have been a tad more.

I do cook on gas, I have no air con, I have no flat screen TV, no clothes drier, I have no dish washer and make sure that I run any extra electrical equipment such as a clothes washer (Front loader) after the sun goes down and I thus get the advantage of feeding back power to the grid, for which I get reimbursed at three times the rate at which I buy. I also have 35,000 litres of tank water.

I have the advantage that I am basically a single household although I do have a visitor three days & nights every weekend.

I have seen this coming for some years now (along with global warming) and have gradually been preparing for the eventuality of higher electricity costs among other things and am now reaping the benefit... It is going to get worse. My neighbour has just put 36 PV panels on his roof and the power company will be paying him !

* My neighbour has just put 36 PV panels on his roof and the power company will be paying him !*

Err not really snake. They will be charging other users more,
to subidise payments to him, by law. Good old election
pork barreling really, so that the Govt can increase its so
called "green" credentials.

As we've seen in Germany, if they make the payback tariff
high enough, enterprising individuals will use coal fired
electricty to feed back through their solar system and
make a healthy quid! Meantime Sonofgloin and others
will be complaining about their higher electricty charges.

Actually Yabby that is not entirely true.

The problem is peak demand. Anything to help reduce peak demand like encouraging people to feed back to the grid is encouraged.

We normally only use about 60% of the base load generating capacity. The rest is only used about 1% of the time at peak periods. This is caused more and more by life style changes when people turn on their A/C for instance and also caused by more, proportionately smaller households. It is a dilemma for the electricity authorities because it is not good use of captital. Peak demand is now growing at a 50% faster rate than base load. One and a half billion dollars alone is responsible for this peak load used for only 1% of the time. This peak demand is doubling every 20 years

Many electricity suppliers are running short of reserves and it is one reason why charges are going up so quickly. Change your life style and use less power. That's the answer.

Posted by Johnny Rotten, Monday, 23 August 2010 9:57:46 AM

" ... My conscience is clear, voted Greens. ... "

Aah yes, so did I. And now the people have spoken AND they have said, neither the blue nor the red of politics shall create any law which shall not be subject to the scrutiny AND authority of the *Greens* Its a beautiful thing!

..

Posted by snake, Monday, 23 August 2010 11:59:00 AM

" ... My neighbour has just put 36 PV panels on his roof and the power company will be paying him! ... "

Great interest info *Snake* I LOVE the concept of energy positive households selling back to the grid and an ever increasing surplus of energy available for industry and manufacturing AND I note that the Ferrari factory in Italy uses more electricity than an entire suburb for such things as liquefying great huge blocks of base metal to be poured into sand molds post 3D printing in turn to be be used for the fabrication of engine and machine parts.

We've got the brains, we've got the loot and we've got all the raw materials. *Christ* only knows why we are not creating. Mayhaps the independent member *Bob Katter* will bring more vigor to this particular debate, not to mention what could be done with ethanol engines, which can be designed slightly differently I believe to take into account the lesser energy potential per volume than that obtained from the smelly old benzine ring.

*The problem is peak demand. Anything to help reduce peak demand like encouraging people to feed back to the grid is encouraged.*

I haven't done the exact calculation snake, but I would be amazed if
subsidising your panels, then paying you 3 times the going rate all
year, would be an economically worthwhile, for in that case power
companies would be installing solar panel farms. But it does
appeal to all the feelgood environmental types and buys votes.
I gather that in NSW they are restricting the amount of people who
can sell back their power, to limit the damage in terms of cost.

Peak load is best solved through gas turbine backup. That is alot
cheaper then coal plants, but with higher operating costs when burning
gas.

That is one of the problems of windpower. It needs full backup
at all times, for when the wind doesen't blow.

One of the reasons for higher electricity costs is that people
don't want more coal generating plants built. Fair enough, it
can be done, gas is there and ready to go. But you just can't do
it for 20c a kw/h, consumers will need to pay a fair bit extra.

So that is the real dilema. People want an ETS, less CO2, which
gas can do, but they don't want to pay the cost.

*Yappy* you need to do a bit more study on alternative energy systems and the surrounding economic issues before making such "leaps of logic" and "grandiose pronouncements" as clearly you are incorrect.

CSIRO's recent announcement of the massive potential of wave power and the fact that prototype systems are already up an running in the Scottish North Sea, coupled with the huge potential of rich solar areas in Australia, wind and other alternative forms, such as geo thermal, collectively, easily manage to cater for Australia's present and future needs.

Geo thermal and wave power pretty much pump solid none stop for free continually. The only cost is start up, infrastructure and maintenance.

The problem is getting the parasites off from feeding on the domestic consumer. As far as I am concerned, in the phase out period, let them sell coal on the international market but get the filthy, polluting <snip> out of the domestic market. And that goes for gas too.

Yabby...I could well be wrong here, but I recall hearing a price of 3c a litre for the gas we export to China.

Pretty cheap I reckon.

We should be using it here though, not selling it all off to create junk few really need, that ends up broken in no time, and fills our tips up.

*but I recall hearing a price of 3c a litre for the gas we export to China.*

TBC, years ago, when NW gas was first being shipped, there was
indeed a single contract signed at dirt cheap prices. Banks
won't provide project finance, without purchase guarantees.

Now that shipping gas, including multi billion $ receival terminals,
has become standard in many places, gas contracts are usually
pegged to the price of oil. So gas is much more expensive

Companies like Origin have freely stated that switching to gas
is quite possible, but given the international price of gas,
electricity charges would rise quite dramatically and you consumers
seem to be quite touchy about the price that you pay, so coal it
is for most of our electricity.

Dreamon, you keep dreaming on. There is at present no technology
that is bankable, that is far advanced enough to replace coal or
gas. There are indeed experimental plants, but they need to prove
themselves before they become bankable and credible. No bank
will fund technology still at experimental stages.

So it comes down to what consumers are prepared to pay. We can
switch to gas, but international gas prices will push the
cost of electricity to far higher levels then apply now, or
we can keep going with coal for the forseeable future. That is
the reality of it. Meantime we can monitor new experimental
plants and see how they perform over time.

88 people at the booth I was on voted greens.
And for the first time their votes never got counted.
This close seat did not need preferences.
If half the green vote had been for Labor it would have been different.
Senate votes count but in this seat at least greens votes helped only a conservative.
Power from the sun need not feed back into the grid.
My system is battery's and I am black out proof.
Only small but about 40 hours of power in a black out.

Yabby... this was just the other week, as some politician was boasting of our massive exports of gas...

It certainly was not going out at 'world prices'.

TBC, you clearly don't follow the financial and investment news.

I can assure you that Chevron would not be spending 45 billion,
nor would various companies plan to spend mega billions in Qld,
to give gas away for a song. They would simply flog it on the
local market and no need to build those huge export terminals,
where the stuff has to be cooled to - 160 deg to turn it into
a liquid.

Apart from those original contracts, the only gas being sold
el cheapo is for the domestic market, where its sold for
well below world prices. But that has to change or companies
won't bother drilling for the stuff.

Personally I prefer to take my advice from the financial
community who closely monitor these things, then what some
politician said

I'll stand corrected.

Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 24 August 2010 5:14:13 PM

" ... DreamOn, you keep dreaming on. There is at present no technology
that is bankable, that is far advanced enough to replace coal or
gas. ... "

No *Yappy,* you are only considering the issues within the confines of the current economic model, on the likely foundation of not accepting the science of "Global Warming & Climate Change."

With the stroke of a pen your fancied coal and gas industries can be regulated in the National Interest in a variety of ways.

Islands are already going under, the ice sheets on the polar caps have reduced considerably and gas concentrations, as is the case with the depleted ozone layers over certain areas of Australia are scientifically measurable.

It is likely that in the phasing out of fossil fuels and the phasing in of green alternatives that the same general levels of charges will be applicable, and the big polluters are already investing heavily in alternatives - they merely await the birth of the regulating out of the old and the cradling and regulating in of the new.

The investment in ocean algae oil generators is one prominent example which comes to mind.

Of course, *Belly* is correct about the back up storage option, and verily an innovative solution it is for protecting ones home and family from down times, in addition to the harnessing of natural forces by the very materials and design of more modern houses to come, ala another step forward from the prototype at the Perth Zoo, for example.

There is no magic to electricity generation, just two opposing magnets spinning external from a central conducting core.

You can do it with peddle power, and I would love to see alt energy push trolley stalls for cooling and UV lighting perhaps for the "Out Back Cafe" tourism upgrade involving "Bush Tucker."

Certain Green alternatives have great potential for generating significant savings for families and communities and I strongly support that.

I just love the way myths are perpetuated.

Here's one DreamOn prepared earlier...

>>Islands are already going under<<

Really?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/03/2916873.htm

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/01/27/floating-islands/

But please, don't let reality intrude on a story that has everything. Pathos, bathos, all generously soaked in a cargo-cult mentality.

Then there's...

>>...the ice sheets on the polar caps have reduced considerably<<

Vastly oversimplified. Here's a little more detail to chew over.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/tech-mainmenu-30/environment/2871-are-the-ice-caps-melting

Gee, it's tough keeping an open mind, isn't it.

*you are only considering the issues within the confines of the current economic model*

Err dreamer, we are operating within the confines of this
economic model, not some fairyfloss dreamtime economic model.
Strokes of the pen have outcomes, somebody has to pay. In this
case its mega billions. Business is not going to pay. It is
cheaper for them to produce no power at all, then produce it
at a loss. That leaves taxpayers and consumers to foot the bill.

*Islands are already going under, the ice sheets on the polar caps have reduced considerably*

Dreamer, if we shut down every single Australian power station and
every Australian went back to hunting and gathering wearing a
loin cloth, it would not make a scrap of difference to global climate.
Our mere 20 million would be replaced by 90 days of human breeding,
for the global population keeps rising at 250'000 people a day.

Perhaps they should stop chopping down all their rainforests in
Indonesia and start providing some family planning for people,
all these things would help.

There is indeed some interesting technology being developed and
we'll see how it turns out. Grant King reckons it will be around
4 years before we know if geothermal is a viable option or not.
Lots of things are in the trial stages, just not in the bankable
stages yet. So we'll wait and see how they turn out, before
we go and send economies broke investing in hairbrain schemes.

Hi All,
I believe that there needs to be greater transparency and accountability to the public for the bills they send us.
I am a pensioner and live on my own.
My days do not change markedly. Occasionally I might go to visit one of my children.
Yet!! Yet, the variation in my bills is immense.

Several years ago I gave up my garden, my one pleasure, due to the drought. I used to grow my own vegetables as well as flowers and shrubs. I did all of the water saving exercises, yet the bills still went up.
When I complained they agree there was an anomaly and reduce it to the average. Gradually it has crept up again. So what is the anomaly?
I get up in the morning, make porridge and drink a cup of coffee.
Twice a week I do my washing.
Unless I need to work on the computer, I leave home for the day, go to my daughter’s place, and help her with her garden.
Returning home, I cook a meal, watch TV, shower and go to bed.
The strange thing is that her bills seem to be similar to me. I live on one side of town and her on the opposite. Strange?
I believe the companies need to go back to employing meter readers and not rely on guestimates. Even if by any imagination their guestimates are valid, the clients should not have to pay higher reading bills that are not credited until later. Those on pensions already have found that whatever increase they get is quickly chewed up as electricity, power, water, rent increases disproportionately to the increases. My pension buys less than it did 12 months ago and then it required close budgeting to meet all costs. Pensioners are paid well below the poverty line, whereas as in most European and British are guaranteed not to receive a pension below the poverty line.

*Posted by DreamOn, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 1:21:21 PM*

" ... Islands are already going under, the ice sheets on the polar caps have reduced considerably and gas concentrations, as is the case with the depleted ozone layers over certain areas of Australia are scientifically measurable. ... "

*Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 2:30:05 PM*

" ... Really?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/03/2916873.htm

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/01/27/floating-islands/

But please, don't let reality intrude on a story that has everything. Pathos, bathos, all generously soaked in a cargo-cult mentality. ... "

&

" ... Vastly oversimplified. Here's a little more detail to chew over. ... "

..

The best doco I have seen on the north polar cap was from Russia Today, who reviewed the findings of the science body that has been conducting bore core samples for decades, amongst other things and tracking the results for decades. The science is quite plain. So plain in fact, that even now at the UN relevant parties are negotiating the rights to the fish stocks whose range will increase significantly as the ice that once barred their way continues to diminish.

..

I found that your article supported my assertion that some islands are going under. That's not to say there aren't locale specific additional variables at play, but as your article states, the overall sea level is going up.

..

Your second article is tripe. Try real science with citations and references to published and accepted scientific journals if you continue to want to be taken seriously.

Indeed, there is a lot of misinformation being published by pseudo scientists, but your article reads like the climate change equivalent of the "Stolen Generation" skeptics.

..

I'm disappointed *Pericles* I had thought better of your research skills but then, say again, what is *Kami Kaze* all about?

*Professor AU* You have my sympathies.
..

*Yappy* you really have no idea at all about what you are talking about and seem incapable of thinking outside the square.

..

You raise the question of Indonesia, so I will comment on that. Indeed, family planning and contraception is greatly required, and indeed it would be good if they stopped chopping down the rain forests and burning associated carbon synchs, not to mention the

Orang Hutan -> Orangutan -> Person Forest -> Person of the Forest

..

To suggest that shutting down the coal stations in Oz would make no difference is absurd. Perhaps you would care to consider reading some of the publicly available literature published by the relevant recent Australian of the Year on matters to do with climate science.

..

But alas, I digress, re alternative economic models, I refer your attention to the magnificent river systems of East Jawa. Before the dirty filthy polluting coal plant parasites and their operatives were established at law by the Human Rights abusers and War Criminals from Jakarta, the Dutch had set up a magnificent water wheel electricity scheme, which more than catered for all of the local communities.

Once up and running, they cost virtually nothing, and the maintenance for the teams that kept them operational (ie keeping the grates clear of vegetative debris) was paid for by small community collections.

Thereafter, the electricity was abundant and as good as free. .. But then, as said, they were all pulled out in favor of filth and money grubbing parasites.

Nothing "Fairy Floss" or "Dream Time" about that mate. And the communities had savings and consequently grew. Now, they have been relegated to subsistence living in order to pay for a non essential industry.

..

As for Geo Thermal, well, you just bang a solid core into the hot rocks which in turn heats up, generates steam and spins the turbine. The difficulty is not that in whether the tech works, but rather that there is no justification to charge so much for it thus business doesn't want it.

**Yappy* you really have no idea at all about what you are talking about and seem incapable of thinking outside the square.*

Ah Dreamer, I think outside the square all the time. I just try
not to float on the clouds. Big difference!

*As for Geo Thermal, well, you just bang a solid core into the hot rocks which in turn heats up, generates steam and spins the turbine.*

Ah so simple hey. In this case, rather then trust the judgement
of an Australian pensioner, living in Indonesia, I'll rely on the
knowledge of Grant King, CEO of Origin Energy. They invest hundreds
of millions each year. He is actually informed about the industry,
unlike yourself.

*To suggest that shutting down the coal stations in Oz would make no difference is absurd.*

Not so Dreamer. Given the 250'000 daily increase in global population,
given the fact that the Chinese are opening another power station
each week, our tiny bit frankly does not matter. All the problems
are in the northern hemisphere, not the southern hemisphere.

But for some, its a feelgood problem. Get your act in order in
Indonesia, before you try to preach to us please

*Yappy*

You continue to make assumptions not based on fact and in reality you are but guessing. Whilst I have made it plain where I currently reside, but not for very much longer, your assumptions about what I do and my age are clearly incorrect.

..

As regards thinking outside the box, and different economic models, what you may like to consider is one of the fundamental differences between "Green Techs" and "Fossil Fuel" energy sources.

And that is simply, whilst say with coal you have to locate it, dig it up and then transport it before you burn it, with wind, solar and geothermal you do not.

The wind keeps blowing most of the time in rich areas, the sun in parts of Australia cranks non-stop giving in excess of 90% coverage during day light hours and the hot earth radiates non stop.

All you have to do is harvest it.

..

In fact, more potential energy strikes the earth from the sun every day than the entire estimated fossil reserve in total. Hmmm ..

..

Now, in truth I do appreciate some of your economic knowledge, but in this particular area you are needing an upgrade. By all means, ignore what I say, but if you want to understand the science behind the tech then read what the scientists say (clearly your mind is fine enough for that and the same goes for *Pericles*) and the vast majority of them are in agreeance visa vi global warming and climate change on in principal issues.

How in turn that applies to the economy is the matter of interest before us. But I put it to you, the problem with getting green tech established, is not because it is too expensive or not viable relatively, but rather because it will decimate the electricity industry as we know it and put a lot of people out of work.

And therein we find 2 of the primary objections that we see respectively emanating from the blue and red sectors of the political sphere.

..

Another example perhaps? If you ever driven the nullabor, you would note the emergency solar powered telephone service. Now, I don't recall seeing too many staffers in the immediate vicinity. In fact, not that I know for sure, but mayhaps the road kill ute drives by once a month, wipes the dust of the panels and then drives on. That is about as much regular maintenance as they need.

..

Indo already has geo thermal and as they sit on the so called ring of fire, they have plenty of it in addition to paying less than 60c per litre of fuel and less than $AU10 per 15kg clean weight bottle of gas.

What they don't have is an abundance of parasitic multinational energy companies like BP feeding off them as we do in Australia. Chevron is one of the exceptions to that, but only because they are bringing new tech know how to upgrade the Indos scientific capability.

..

No, the matter requiring economic expertise before us is how to migrate excess, non essential personal out of the fossil fuel sector and relocate them into knew areas of employment. New industrial endevour needs to be part of that mix i.m.o.and I note *Obama* is one of the politicians discussing regulating favorable business conditions to get some of the newer industries up and running, as opposed to just throwing them to the ravages of the pre-existing economic law of the jungle.

..

That in part is what I refer to as new and novel economic modeling.

One more thing *Yappy* and I'll go out on a limb here but thereafter be pleased to be corrected.

The point that I take issue to again is the matter of localised global warming gasses and consequently localised effects.

You see, pursuant to local conditions, global warming gasses accumulate where they do in the atmosphere, solar radiation comes in, passes through, strikes the planets surface (partly converting to radiant heat,) bounces back and tries to head back out to outer space

BUT

instead strikes a blanket of g.w. gasses and bounces straight back down to earth again heating the place up. Simple really isn't it?

..

Obviously you have never grown tomatoes hydroponically with CO2 supplementation OR you would know this.

..

So, local considerations are very relevant as are localised shade patches, just as they are in the paddock when the stock need to seek shelter.

Park land clearing and new harvesters. I predict that will be part of the mix for "threatened" locales.

..

So, to say that the only issue is in the northern hemisphere is a nonsense.

Dream On, you really are a dreamer, aren't you? Good on you, enjoy, but we must hope other people don't get the idea you are talking sense.

For example your greenhouse example. Mate in your greenhouse the "house" part, plastic, or glass is not there to stop escaping radiation, but to stop the loss of heat by convection. The warmed air can't escape, radiative losses are of no consideration.

Now in tour "blanket" of gas, first there is nothing for any radiative heat to "bounce" off. A little is absorbed, & re-radiated in all directions, with an increasingly small percentage of it radiated towards the planet, with increasing height.

Then we find that those very gasses that form your so called blanket are the ideal material to move the heat to the high atmosphere, from which it can easily escape to space.

Yes, gas is an ideal medium for convection currents to establish, & cart your heat up & away, rather than bounce it anywhere.

Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 27 August 2010 8:49:11 PM

" ... Dream On, you really are a dreamer, aren't you? Good on you, enjoy, but we must hope other people don't get the idea you are talking sense. ... "

I am of the view that it is the lies and misinformation promoted by people like yourself that must be quashed.

I am happy to enter into an exchange of scientific citation if you wish, to demonstrate to any concerned that what I have said is correct. And then having read the majority view of the majority of credible scientists in the world people can make up their own minds.

It amazes me that you have the gall to speak with the pretense of authority when quite obviously you are clueless.

*HasBeen* is an apt handle for you as your notions are reminiscent of the "Dark Ages."

*And that is simply, whilst say with coal you have to locate it, dig it up and then transport it before you burn it, with wind, solar and geothermal you do not.*

Err Dreamer, we know all that, duh. But there are good reasons why
say the Chinese, who can make anything on the cheap, send their
boats to Australia to buy thermal coal for their power stations
and pay us billions of $. Believe me, if alternate forms of
energy were cheaper, they would not be paying us good money,
but doing it all themselves. They don't. They buy our coal.

There is a mountain of evidence discussing these costings, but
you, who claim to be well informed about science, have not even
researched the basics on this. So I'm not going to do it for you.

*But I put it to you, the problem with getting green tech established, is not because it is too expensive or not viable relatively, but rather because it will decimate the electricity industry as we know it and put a lot of people out of work.*

Sheesh, now we have a global conspiracy theory here. Never mind
the economics that we know, never mind the jobs that would be
created, never mind the fierce competition of the marketplace.
Dreamer has dreamt up a conspiracy theory to explain it all.
This is a bit like debating religion with runner, frankly its
a waste of time.

*they have plenty of it in addition to paying less than 60c per litre of fuel and less than $AU10 per 15kg clean weight bottle of gas.*

Ah ok, another conspiracy theory, it must be BP. Never mind that
Indonesia nearly blew up their budget through subsidising petrol,
never mind the riots that broke out, never mind that Australia
taxes its petrol at around 50c a litre to pay for all those
welfare costs. It must be BP.

Dreamer, stop dreaming and do your homework. Perhaps you only
post this rubbish for a bit of attention. That's what I'm starting
to presume.

*Yappy* the only one who is posting rubbish mate is your moronic conservative drivel which quite otherwise than being well researched, is simplistic propaganda the likes that we come to expect on all matters pertaining to climate change, global warming, asylum seekers, and the Stolen Generation, and the list goes on, from the conservative spectrum of politics.

1. Re China, they are in process of tooling up massive alternative energy production facilities in addition to what they are also producing and have begun developing entire seed cities based purely and only on organic and green systems. It is a work in progress but you can bet when their tech level rises, their imports of coal will reduce. Nothing surer - not if, just when.

2. Re China again, the W.H.O. estimates that in excess of 100,000+ people in China die every year because of coal pollution related respiratory disease and I would refer your attention to the 4 Corners or Cutting Edge report that recently aired on the Australian network re Australian doctors pulling their families out of Australian coal dust contaminated towns.

3. Re: the alleged evidence that you claim you could produce but choose not to, I would suggest you stop reading conservative party clap trap and back up your assertions with more than hot air and bluster. We have all seen how you attempted to denigrate female members when it became clear to all that you are little more than a big mouth.

4. It's no conspiracy theory, but there is more people than just me that consider that it is a bad joke that we need to pay the companies of other countries international level profits for the resources of Australia that belong collectively to Australians. .. It becomes increasingly obvious that you are unable to substantiate your assertions with fact so it does in turn become obvious why you resort to personal denigration. You cut a pathetic character in my view.

/TBC

5. What's a waste of time *Yappy* is you sooking and sulking and sneering because you're not getting you're own way. What a laugh!

6. Re: Indo here again you are clueless, verily, full of sh!t and you have little idea about that which you are talking. Whilst they currently have an inflation problem, the Indo's are doing relatively ok and came through the GFC pretty well. SBY holds the support of the international business community far more than any of his predecessors.

Pertamina is a very profitable company because they don't have international parasites feeding off them to the extent that Australia does. The only sense that it can be said that they subsidise their fuel is because they don't charge international price. They have a domestic price for the local market, which is still profitable, and international prices for their export products. Any residual that they need to import has its cost offset by local profits.

7. The reason there were riots, and I can but guess to which ones you refer as typically you're nonsense is non specific, is because the Soharto regime was highly corrupt.

After all, Soharto's son did little more than 1 year for having a judge executed and now they're talking about letting others involved in the Bali bombings out early too. I would not be surprised to learn that some money has been changing hands on those issues.

So, maybe you might get an appreciative audience in a troll pit after everyone has had one too many *Yappy* but here you will have to back up your assertions in order to be taken seriously.

Same goes for *Pericles* whose recent efforts have diminished compared to some of his early work, and I note "Cutting Edge" is about to release a doco on Australia Network entitled "Once there was an Island."

So there we have it from Dreamer. I tirade of abuse, meantime
he's not really aware of what is happening in Indonesia. He
is also not aware, that solar power is substantially more expensive
then coal power, so we don't yet use it for that reason.

Fair enough. Dreamer, you are clearly old enough to post on OLO,
so are quite capable of doing your own google searches to inform
yourself about these things. With some posters, I simply don't
bother anymore, they are not worth it. You are one of them.

But just to show that you don't know what is happening where
you live, here is a single URL for you.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/indonesian-petrol-price-rise-sparks-protests-20080525-2i1y.html

Have a good night

All new construction of private dwellings should be required to include solar panels to the extent that can provide a surplus over their requirements. The increased supply will lower cost and this will also benefit the environment.

The government is already offering all kinds of grants for the installation of solar panels. If installation was done at the time of construction the cost would be lessened significantly

https://sites.google.com/site/futureofaustralia/home/environment