Trashcanman ”Typical baby-boomer conservatives.”

I was living in UK when the excesses of “nation building at all costs and damn the consequences” were being paid for by those who succeeded the failed socialist politicians responsible for such incompetent strategies

The point –

The real world lives with a very simple economic model... called “return on investment”

Now, just as “investing in climate change” produces no economic return

So too throwing an additional $30 billion or so at a supposed “problem” will produce no economic return

And when ventures, especially ventures on this scale, are pursued, with no economic return one has to ask the question –

Where does the money come from.

Well that is simple

One of two places

Either the electorate are taxed to recoup the costs or

Other government services are slashed to finance the cost

Those are the only two options... no “magic-pudding” scenarios, that is what got the UK into so much bother in 1970 was the primary reason for the economic collapse of

Russia in 1990
Greece in 2010

Of course

If such ventures are left in the hands of private enterprise, where the notion of return on investment is an ingrained guiding principle, any network will either be “profitable” (= positive return on investment) and (technically) structured in an efficient and effective form

or it will not be undertaken

regarding solutions – see my previous post for a possible starting point for solutions ...

Regarding “who don't give a toss about generations to follow”

Now I suggest you take your “gimme-gimme, hand-out mentality” and consider this -

do you not think you are too old to expect to still be suckling on the teat of some ancient baby-boomer momma?

And like hasbeen so accurately put it “Instead of throwing insults around you should be glad that we are prepared to at least try to protect you from your most stupid ideas.”

"We're talking about keeping up with the rest of the world"

I suppose you are, and so also say big corporations that try every possible gimmick to sell us things we don't need, the real reason being that they cannot close their inflated IT departments.

The question is, why should keeping up with the rest of the world be a good thing.

The drive behind technology is not our well-being (with the possible exception of medicine), but rather to cope with the increasing and unsustainable numbers of humans on this planet. To the extent that technology develops further, more people can be squeezed in for the short term, making the eventual and final collapse of the human race even more dramatic than it should - and this is what you call "caring for generations to follow"...

If you care about the physical future of this planet and future generations, the only way is to stop the tyranny of those selfish-genes - stop making children!

If you also care about the spiritual future of this planet and future generations, curtail their addiction to electronic gadgets and virtual-reality, so they have time left to reflect and live a real life in the physical world.

One of my considerations when coming to Australia was that this great country is (or was, in 1989) technologically behind, where people still related to each other on the physical plane, with kindness and compassion. Although there was a gap between Australia and the rest of the developed world, it was not a 3rd-world country and people lived comfortably. In the 2010 elections, I vote for preserving this healthy gap and staying behind the rest of the world while it proceeds to jump over the cliff.

Yuyutsu,

In general, I completely agree with your last post, except that it is a mite idealistic and ignores the realities of human nature.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world is moving in a particular direction. Now, we could follow the lead of North Korea and do our own thing. Stop where we are, close our borders, ignore the outside world. OR we could move with the times, RESPONSIBLY of course, and remain competitive economically and maintain parity in living standards.

Stern & Hasbeen:

If the younger generations are all "gimme gimme", it is the way they were brought up and the world that was created for them. The world is the way it is now because that is the way it was shaped, not because of those who are being shaped by it.

And, despite your argument for protecting us from paying later; my argument is that we're going to be paying later regardless. So we'd rather pay less later by doing the job properly now.

Why should Australia continue to move further and further behind global development?

Trashcanman “If the younger generations are all "gimme gimme", it is the way they were brought up and the world that was created for them.”

Ah blame your poor attitude on your parents eh TCM?

I have two daughters, neither of whom has looked to me for subsidy since before the age of 21....

If your expectation is a result of your parents poor parenting skills don’t blame me...

I did my bit properly

Re “The world is the way it is now because that is the way it was shaped, not because of those who are being shaped by it.”

Those without the backbone or their own legs to stand on are always those who are shaped by their environment, instead of mastering the skills and adopting the attitude which allows them to survive, independently, in that environment...

Since you have declared that as your excuse, all I can say is

Do the gene pool a favour and remain celibate -

Because any child you are expected to be responsible for is going to be damned the moment they are born.

Regarding paying for stuff

Spending $30 billion more than is possibly needed is not the same as investing $30 billion more... it is simple profligacy and playing fast and loose with the tax payers resources and is an attitude which must never be tolerated.

But whilst we are at it.. you have made no comment regarding my observation to private investment.... has the “cat got your tongue” or are you lacking in reasoning, as well as basic bum-wiping skills?

“Why should Australia continue to move further and further behind global development”

Well it would be one way of discouraging all these illegal boat people from coming here....

TrashcanMan,

There is so much middle-ground between North-Korea and the U.S.A.:
I am not suggesting to open a 200-year gap, perhaps just a 20-year gap is adequate, then we can watch and see how the others fall off the cliff before trying it ourselves.

You don't need to close the borders, just not open them any wider, and I don't mean in the way of physical restrictions, but rather where it all starts - in education. Public (or publically-funded) schools should not have computers in them. Those kids have way too much of it at home already. If you absolutely need them for remote-education, then the teacher should hold the key to make sure they are not used in any other fashion. Also, computers and similar gadgets should not be allowed toward educational tax-deductions/rebates (except in remote areas where schools are not available, and then locked by hardware to prevent other uses). Teachers should show a personal example, then explain to the kids why those gadgets are dangerous and addictive, and how it is possible to fully live their lives happily without it. So many kids today are not even aware of their options!

Business competitiveness is not a real issue: despite them saying otherwise, NBN is all about home-entertainment. A real business which identifies network-congestion to be an operational issue has lots of possible technical solutions already. It costs a bit more of course, but its a business, isn't it? At the lower-end, if one copper-ADSL line is insufficient, you can use several of them in parallel. Of course there aren't enough of those for every home, but there are plenty enough for small-to-medium businesses. Even for those working from home, two ADSL2 lines are more than one will ever need for video-conferencing, and every home in Australia is already allocated two copper connections. BTW, High-Definition is not really necessary for business anyway: why should one wish to see each and every pimple on the face of their colleagues? At the higher-end, real-big business can pull their own fibre-optic cables, or launch their own satelite.

Stern mate... there is another possibility "Borrow more" :)

which in due course does translate into 'we owe' and I guess it means taxes or cut services.. or.. OH YEAH.. "sell the Snowy Scheme" :)