...

Pliny: "They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition."

Just a particularly interesting part of the letter.

Note: the "oath"; "Forbidden political associations" and again that torture could not obtain denial by two "deaconesses" who held to "superstitions."

Trajan's reply is very interesting too - and familiar!

"... whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age."

Trajan wouldn't be out of place if he was posting on this OLO thread.

...

Correction: Apologies - The death of Judas is not the only one mentioned in the Bible; see Acts.

Found this account too (from Meet the Apostles). Even one of the persecutors ultimately demonstrated some belief in Thomas' power to heal:

After an active career as a preacher and healer, Thomas is put to death by order of a King Misdeus, on the charge of heresy. In this account, Thomas is executed by spear:

“And when he had prayed, he said to the soldiers: Come and finish the work of him that sent you. And the four struck him at once, and killed him. And all the brethren wept, and wrapped him up in beautiful shawls, and many linen cloths, and laid him in the tomb in which of old the kings used to be buried.”

Later, King Misdeus believes that the bones of the apostle may be able to heal his daughter, who is possessed by a demon. When he goes to the tomb “he did not find the bones (for one of the brethren had taken them, and carried them into the regions of the West).”

Philo,

On reading your last post I could feel the pain in your heart.

Calling people trolls totally undermines your wishes for people to know GOD.

However, for my part I apologise, if my last post upset you.

Pynchme,

A good reference the Blue Bible....http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm gives you many of the versions of the Bible including Greek and Hebrew versions.

The article on the oral handing down of information seems a little dubious to me.

In my mind, there had to be written texts from closer to Jesus' days, because of the volume of the information shared. I doubt that 40 years of oral teaching would result in such detail of what Jesus was alleged to have actually said.

The "consistency" as you put it is simple, if people work from the same texts, and add bits that they either remember or have been told.

Whilst still debated Mark was allegedly the first Gospel http://www.carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-by-whom but the argument rages on.

To suggest that all Jesus' teachings were handed down in an oral tradition, in such detail, seems highly speculative.

Look at the direct quotations and detail here Matthew 24:20-36...http://tinyurl.com/27banm7 How could this be handed down by oral tradition?

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Seems to have come and gone without that what was foretold occurring. How can this be?

But of course this has little to do with the roles of women in the church.

How can allegedly Christian organisations use Paul's words in 1 Timothy 2:11-12...http://tinyurl.com/2dvp78s to oppress a whole gender.

So when it suits the Churches they hold strictly to a man's teachings (Paul's in this case) BUT when it suits they change the Sabbath to a Sunday defying GODS explicit teaching...http://tinyurl.com/28phzdv

How can this be?

Finally in 1 Corinthians 14:35....http://tinyurl.com/373do5r...Paul says "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church" and yet this man is still held in high regard by Christians.

Most puzzling!

Here we go, more Vatican scandal:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/24/catholic-church-gay-priests-exposed

"A member of the clergy quoted by the magazine put the proportion of gay priests in the Italian capital at "98%". The Rome diocese insisted the vast majority of priests in the city were "models of morality for all", while adding that the number of gay clergyman was "small, but not to be written off as isolated cases". A review eight years ago of research on the American church concluded that between a quarter and a half of seminarians and priests there were homosexual."

Now, it doesn't concern me that Catholic priests are gay, well, most of them so it seems, but it says a lot that so many find sanctuary within a moralising organisation that pays out on the danger of women becoming priests, and prohibits them from joining in.

Puts it in perspective really doesn't it?

No wonder there is no room at the Gay Inn for women!

It really is time for this outdated, lieing, immoral machine to 'reform' or pack up.

Sadly, it will not pack up, so that only leaves 'reform'.

It probably needs some form of Protestant reaction to the central power of Rome, and a destruction of the power of the priests.

I hate to say this, but the Evangelicals probably have a more up-to-date view of their direct relationship to their god, not being filtered through a distant and uninterested central authority.

The only thing that will prevent this, is the toxic grip of 'tradition' on all the smoking handbag peripherals that add 'mystery' to a day in church.

Very good TBC.
It is curious that the RC church is such a staunch defender of doctrine when it comes to debarring female priests, yet it accommodates "mortal sins".
I'm sure there are sound theological premises :-)

Squeers... I think that falls under, as do so many things, the overarching rubric 'God moves in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform', although with the Vatican He seems to have planted his feet, not so much 'in the sea'.... as in the &hit.

Never mind Squeers... people BELIEVE in it, and that is what REALLY matters, isn't it?

After all, if you are like Gillard, and BELIEVE in NOTHING, then you have nothing to whinge about, and have to be held resposnible for your own behaviour.

Mind you, if you behave well, I reckon that's worth a 'plus 10' for acting without any MORAL GUIDANCE.

Jesus!, if I may be allowed a profanity within the blog..... we are a silly mob, are we not?

Falling for a bunch of gay priests, who reckon they can save the world, so long as no one knows they are gay!

What a LARK!

And, even more than usual, it seems there is absolutely NO ROOM for women, so why on Earth do they bother?

Because they 'believe'?

In what?