Just try to imagine how great life for us would be if not for the billions we waste on trying to deal with 'avaoidable problems' we face almost on a daily basis.

Take the war in Afganistan, the boat people debarcle, the problems associated with indiginous communities.

The war. Not our war but none the less it costs us billions year in year out. Not to mention young lives.

The boat people, another huge drain on our finances, with billions each year being gobbled up by a very small number of people, and the problems associated with indiginous communities.

We look like having to fund yet another royal commision into that death in Palm Island, yet, had this guy not been blind rotten drunk, there would have been no death in custody as he simply wouldn't have been there in the first place.

Successive governments simply throw billions of 'our money', the tax payers money, at these problems yet we can't even offord for our retirees to enjoy a decent retirement.

I for one am sick to death of these wasted billions and recon it's time, we the tax payers said, 'enough is enough'.

We need to find a way that we have more say in to when and where our money is spent, otherwise, by the time many of us retire there will simply be nothing left to retire on.

Show me the money, show me the wasted billions.
Prove to me it was wasted.
Ask your self if others, even most agree with your view.
Millions ,billions are spent and gone by every government.
Capitalism runs on credit and feeding the economy.
What if we did not stimulate the economy?
If unlike America England we let fate play out?
What if we kept our troops at home, every time, would your world fall apart.
rechtub you must try hard to understand money is not a justification for retreating from the world, but for some it clearly is the hands over the eyes stopping a good view of reality.
I value lifestyle fairness and equity more than riches.

Not all the stimulus package was wasted but reports of rorting and waste are certainly unsettling.

It is all very well to boost the building sector but there is a difference between stimulus and waste. One can still stimulate while ensuring more effective use of resources.

Instead of building unwanted school halls and libraries (in some cases) the money could have hired more early intervention teachers or improved, reduced hospital waiting lists, built better health services in regional areas, rail infrastructure between major cities and ports.

Even increasing pensions for retirees, carers and disabled would not only ensure a better quality of life (above the poverty line) but more money being spent on goods and services for the longer term not just a short term fix.

There is no doubt the stimulus package was well intended but that is not good enough. Revenue is not a bottomless pit to be wasted on ill-thought out and poorly delivered programs.

It was a strong lesson learnt and one that hopefully won't be repeated.

"yet, had this guy not been blind rotten drunk, there would have been no death in custody as he simply wouldn't have been there in the first place."

Rehctub, Your point maybe fundamentally correct but is none the less vile. Because he was drunk it was therefore his fault that he had his liver delivered a trauma so intense that it was almost severed in half. Don't even try to tell me that it was somehow this guys fault.

Pelican. You can not think that government will learn the lesson. They have done it before they will do it again. In the case of the stimulas package it was a screaming success as far as the government were concerned. It propped up the unemployment figures, maintained the retail sector and has attracted wide spread praise from international financial observers. The fact that as you say it could have been better spent on more sustainable and long term projects is true but not the point of the stimulas. It was to be spent fast and hard to cover the whole that the mining sector was leaving in the economy.

The building industry was targeted because of the hugh employment in that sector. The industry walks a knifes edge all the time and it would take little for employment to collapse leading to a rise in unemployment. This would be widely damaging to the economy.

Yes Billions are wasted every year, personally one of the worst in my opinion is the family tax benefit bonus paid each year. Howard paid it as an election bribe back about 2001( i think? ) and it worked he got a big mum and dad vote but it was wrong. Now what was a bonus paid from the surplus has become permanent costing big dollars in debt. Had this been a payment to all Australians based on a percentage of the surplus i would agree. It would also be a big incentive for government to maintain surpluses.

nairbe
My hope was that this particular government would heed the lessons learned rather than a future government (agree lessons of the past are usually forgotten after a period of time).

I always wonder why the building sector is always targeted for stimulus, not just under this government. I guess the spin-offs are greater to smaller suppliers and related industries.

In relation to purely retail sales, there are other growing employment sectors that equally contribute to retail sales, and where there is great demand such as in the aged care and health sector where salaries are too low to attract good staff, and lucky to keep the good ones who remain.

The baby bonus is another huge burden, and I always wonder why those who find the need for a baby bonus to start a family always manage to find money for an oversized house and the latest eletrical gadgets. Whatever happened to saving up?

Pelican,
Unfortunately, unless they are hiding someone special on the back bench i don't see anyone in the current government that appears to have the leadership and discipline to control the spending. Unlike most people i think most of the programs the government have come up with are really good. The problem is they always lack detail when released and are then poorly executed costing not more money but better productivity for the money.

I know health and particularly aged care could do with much larger and better qualified staff to drive them into the future. The biggest problem in this area is that the money put in is gone. Unlike the building industry that leaves behind an asset, aged care is a black hole so though it puts money in pockets as wages it will only leave behind facilities that need constant updating and have little asset value except for the land.

Agree with the baby bonus, we got a couple of hundred each when we had our kids and was appreciated, but the money handed out now is poorly targeted. It would seem that having children is not a life decision anymore it is simply three paid months off work then put them in care. It may seem liberating to some but i rather make sacrifices like not having a new car and boat to make sure someone is home when the kids get back from school.

Belly, I have not mentioned the present government, yet you always jump to their defence. Mind you, if I loved an organisation as much as you love labor, then perhaps I to would defend them at every chance.

The war. Did I not see you, in another thread, stating that we should not be involved in this war?

nairbe,While I have sypathy for this guy, the fact remains, he was where he was through his own actions. End of story.

To all, I am not refierring to the stimulus at all. I am referring to the ongoing wasted billions, from succesive governments. It's like a dog chasing its tail. Trouble is, we are the ones footing the bill, not the descision makers. They get rewarded regardless of whether they succeed or fail.

Seriously, if something is not done about the waste, there will simply be nothing left.

The stimulus package was totally unnecessary.All they had to do was keep interest rates low and not borrow from China.

It is the global reserve banking system that keeps most countries in poverty.They have the power to create money in their computers,thus depreciationg the value of our currencies via inflation.It is akin to us counterfeiting money thus diluting the value of everyone elses' savings or labour.Just 3.5% inflation depreciates our currencies by 40% every 10 yrs.Inflation is compounding like interest.Inflation created by the banks and our Govts is stealing from the people who really produce.

So if you want a better life ,reform the banking system or suffer increasing poverty.

Rehctub wrote:

<< yet, had this guy not been blind rotten drunk, there would have been no death in custody as he simply wouldn't have been there in the first place. >>

Nairbe wrote:

<< Rehctub, Your point maybe fundamentally correct but is none the less vile. Because he was drunk it was therefore his fault that he had his liver delivered a trauma so intense that it was almost severed in half. Don't even try to tell me that it was somehow this guys fault. >>

The fault clearly lies with Snr Sergeant Chris Hurley, who had a duty of care for a person in his custody, and who failed terribly to uphold that basic principle for Cameron Doomadgee, a man who had done nothing wrong of any significance. The suggestion that the death in custody was fundamentally the fault of the victim is pretty outrageous, rehctub.

Alright, now that I’ve got that off my chest, I’ll say;

Good thread rehctub. You raise a very important issue.

<< The war >>

Very hard to know what to do.

<< The boat people >>

Very easy to know what to do. Both Gillard and Abbott are on the right track, while Rudd stuffed up terribly.

<< …problems associated with indiginous communities >>

A whole lot MORE expense and effort is need there.

<< royal commision into that death in Palm Island >>

Not needed. The Crime and Misconduct Commission has found that the police were involved in a cover-up and protection racket for Hurley. A royal commission is not going to add much to that finding.

The stimulus package – a huge waste. Were the purported gains, as outlined by Nairbe, really worth the absolutely enormous expense, compared to what else could have been done with that money? Could those gains have been made with a much smaller and more focussed expenditure? Almost certainly.

And the most obscene waste of all: the baby bonus.

The majority of the waste is in the slack public service. If you ever get to see their efforts in sourcing, & purchasing you would see where lack of any real effort costs the tax payer millions.

Yes the pollies make half backed decisions, but in normal day to day spending, drunken sailors have nothing on our public servants.

What we need is a mandatory 5 year maximum employment term in the PS, so that all of them have experience in jobs where money matters. Only then would we start to see some efficiency.

The current system, where the job description is written so that only a public servant has any chance of being recruited for upper level PS jobs has real people locked out.

If it's not our war, whose war is it? There was no war until we, along with our allies, invaded Afghanistan. While I am certainly against the war as a whole, I think we need to take ownership of it.

Ludwig>> The suggestion that the death in custody was fundamentally the fault of the victim is pretty outrageous, rehctub.

I am not suggesting that the death was his fault at all. I am merely pointing out that had he not been arrested, he would not have been harmed in the first place. People must take resposibillity for thier own actions.

Our police force is at 'breaking point' and the last thing we need to waste this valuable, under funded resourse on, is public misconduct.

Now back to the thread.
You are all stuck on this 'stimulus plan'.

My thread has to do with 'all' the wasted funds and how on earth we can do something to stop this blatent waste of money that occurrs almost on a daily basis.

When I commenced work, back in the 70's, part of my taxes were to fund my retirement, not some far away 'un-winable' war, nor for funding the mostly 'non- working' of our community and most certainly not the illigal imigrants.

It's time to STOP WASTING OUR MONEY! It's our's, not the governments.

The wasted billions are spread over the whole budget. I don't disagree that we do pay a lot of money out in social security, but i have no answer to this problem. It is a fundamental part of our society and most people see compassion and the maintenance of community health and standard of living as critical to the further development of our communities. I have seen the introduction of mutual obligation and now managed benefits as positive for the improvement of the situation despite the bleeding hearts suggesting it is humiliating. Only 30 years ago just being on the dole was embarrassing, now it is treated like a right.

Wars have been going on ever since and beside a couple of them they have all been avoidable. We love to blame others for the predicament we are in but in the end it has always been our choice. We don't have to go to war(especially considering no one has ever won in Afganistan) The alternative is always to cut these countries out of the loop and have nothing to do with them, no migration, no aid, no trade just put up a wall. This of course goes agains't the globalisation policies that are so strongly advocated by all governments and economists and would have consequences across the whole spectrum of our society, but in the end we need to decide what we want. A good life or one that is asset rich.

<< Our police force is at 'breaking point' and the last thing we need to waste this valuable, under funded resourse on, is public misconduct. >>

Rehctub, our police are certainly stretched, but misconduct still has to be policed. The police arguably weren’t stretched on Palm Island when Doomadgee was arrested over such a trivial issue. I’d argue that his misconduct was extremely minor and that Hurley should definitely not have arrested him in the circumstances.

<< You are all stuck on this 'stimulus plan'. >>

Well I’m not. I mentioned it amongst a bunch of other things. I know that you had made it clear that you were not referring to the stimulus, but as a recent and huge example of the misallocation of public monies, it is highly relevant.

But I otherwise agree fully with you rehctub.

You know, there is another huge aspect to this subject - the thing that I’ve been on about above all else on OLO – continuous rapid population growth and the absurd continuous growth paradigm.

Basically, this means that we have to spend ever more money on infrastructure and services just to stay still – just to be able to provide them for ever more people rather than improve them for current residents. And we’re FAILING to do this!

If Rudd hadn't thrown huge wads of taxpayer's money at stupid vote buying projects, he wouldn't have had to compensate with the mining super tax.

However, that is the problem. Labor is genetically programmed to increase taxes and spending. They can no more be fiscally responsible than a cat can stop chasing mice.

Agree nairbe, we did it 'tough' in the early days of having children but it wasn't really that tough, just meant going without for a short time to enjoy being at home with the kids. The baby bonus is poorly targeted and is nothing more than middle class welfare.

rehctub
In the US there have been a number of tax protestors who have refused to pay tax on constitutional grounds or as a form of protest against government spending in certain areas.

I am not sure how this would fly in Australia and whether our Constitution allows for 'tax protesting' but that is certainly one way to reduce your hard earned money being wasted. Such a clause could open up a can of worms when you think about it, who decides what is waste? Much of it comes down to ideological or personal grievance and often misinformation.

Does give one some pause for thought.

We of course can do absolutely nothing -
store away the money and let the rich pile it
up.

However, If you have it, you use it to fix health,
education, the environment, transport,
take care of the aged, people with disabilities,
and so forth, and inevitably
as is human nature there will be the greedy who
will take advantage of the system and rort it.
It's a vicious circle - some will use it wisely,
others will want to pile it away. And the cycle
continues... Hopefully with time and better education
humans will get wiser and less greedy. What we need
is to put aside our narrow self interests and work
together if there is to be a world for those humans
and other animals who follow us. We can learn to live
with less, but we can't live without the basic
essentials such as health, and other social services.
Still as voters we will get the chance to have a
say in the next election - and we can vote for the
government that we think will provide us with a better
way of life to the one we currently have. We can
give up our health system, we can give up our jobs,
we can give up our schools, roads, transport, what
the heck - we can give up all of our social services -
and the rich can get richer - we admire the Americans,
perhaps we'll eventually become exactly like them.

Therein lies the problem Foxy, people in this country seem to admire the Americans and their way of life. I don't, I think capitalism has caused many of the world's horrendous problems. Anything remotely like a socialist democratic society is an anathema to most Americans. They may be starting to wake up now though, they are broke. God help us if we continue down the road that led them to where they are.

We are losing all our identity, our politicians are more interested in spin and don't care how much money they waste to convince the populace they are doing something worthwhile. They're not.

Out of all the money wasted by the present government what one lasting, value for money, worthwhile result was achieved? I can't see one in NSW. Perhaps other states gained something worthwhile.

Dear RaeBee,

I'm absolutely terrified of loosing what we
in this country currently have. Friends of
my mother have recently returned from overseas
and told us that we have an excellent health
system especially for pensioners - with Medicare,
pharmaceuticals, bulk billing.

In Melbourne, the
hospital system is great, and so on. I don't know
how my mother and mother-in-law would survive
if what they currently have access to, would disappear.
Social services are important - and apparently here
in Oz we don't have that much to complain about, compared
with what's available overseas, especially in the US.
That's why we really have to weigh the plus and minuses
come election time. As I said - our family can't afford
to lose what we currently have. Be it health, jobs,
education, or any of the other things we need to survive.

I think we all know the reason for us being in Afghanistan.
However I am coming to the conclusion that we should not have troops on
the ground. We should just turn it into an air to ground war.

If the Taliban take over just destroy anything that looks like it could
be a military training camp.
Intelligence would soon reveal if they were getting back to their old
ways. The women might not like the Taliban to be back, but they should
make their men reject the Taliban.
The women of Greece did something like that once.

An interesting suggestion I heard was that the men coming on the boats
should be given basic military training and sent back to the Afghan
army and let them sort it out themselves. Fat chance !
If they don't like that then why should we stick our heads out ?

Foxy,

Far from piling up the money, labor are piling up the debt that future generations will have to pay.

The biggest threat to the future health system is that order to pay back the huge debts in the future, money will have to be diverted from important issues.

It is not whether the gov spends money, but what it spends it on. What do you want health, or super expensive prefab school buildings?

Dear Shadow Minister,

You're absolutely spot on.

It is what the government spends its money
on that matters. And that was precisely
my point.

We have as a perfect example in the previous
Liberal Government's initiative on spending which
gave us cuts in our health system, run down
schools, run down transport systems, run
down hospitals, and so forth. Yet it spent
in the billions on the so called "Pacific
Solution," and most of the asylum seekers
ended up being recognised as genuine refugees
and ended up residing in Australia. And let's
not forget the spending of our military involvement
in foreign countries.

We seem to forget the world economic crisis
because this country did not have the repercussions
that other countries around the world had.
And spending to fix the disasters left by the
previous government only prepared the country
to survive into the future.

As for the debt incurred... that will be paid back
in due course. But without it Australia would have
been in a disastrous situation, as all world
economists have confirmed. High unemployment,
and unimaginable bankruptcies.

A family has a choice, to rent a house
with no security for the future,
or buy a house, pay it off, and have security.
So too, the government is looking to
the future despite the occasional blunders which
every new government inevitably makes. However
by planning for the future, the government ensures
security for the people.

Foxy >>We of course can do absolutely nothing -
store away the money and let the rich pile it
up.

Why do you adopt the old 'tall poppy' attitude and pick on the rich all the time.Remember, most were not born rich, they became rich.

Now, let's see what the rich do.
First, they take huge risks to start a business, often something that they just feel they can make work. Many also fail!

They then have to gain finance, which generally involves risking thier family home.

From there they create jobs, note the word 'create'. Also remember, the workers take these 'created jobs' without fear of risking thier family home.

They then often repay huge debts and pay huge taxes along the way.

Eventually, a very small percentage of them become rich.

Now, once they become rich they get a big fat ZERO when it comes to financial support and another big fat ZERO by way of a pension, so the underachievers, often the 'tall poppies' can enjoy thier pension.

Now, rather than be praised for thier outstanding efforts, efforts that often create hundreds, perhaps thousands of jobs, they continually get shot down by 'tall poppies'.

Now considering just over half of all tax payers actually pay more in tax than they receive in benefits, i am assumming you label them as 'rich', then consider this.

First they have to pay ALL the hand outs (wasted billions) in many cases and, once they have plugged the leak, they then have to pay all the bills.

Consider that the next time you frown upon someone for being rich, and consider yourself very lucky that they decided to take that risk, because, without them, there would be no health, education, pension or billions to waste in the first place.

Finally, how would you feel if you had paid positive taxes all your life to receive ZERO at the finnish!

Dear rehctub,

I was not referring to individual business
people but actually to big business corporations
who use their wealth to manipulate politicians
and governments and the immense power that they
possess in their own interests with no consideration
for the damage they cause to people and nations.

I wasn't referring to individuals who through hard
work, long hours, personal sacrifice and
extreme determination in the interest of their family
and community achieve wealth. These people give back
to the community. I know, my father was one of these
people. He worked hard all of his life and did not
take anything from anybody. He raised us to do the
same.

Oh Foxy,
You berate the Liberals for the expense of the Pacific
solution but Gillard is going for a more expensive solution, the
Timor solution !
Could it just be a case of "Anywhere but Naru !"

Does she really think people will not see through that ?

You couldn't make it up !

Dear Bazz,

I berate the Liberals for the Pacific
Solution for many reasons. As
for the "Timor Solution," with Gillard,
it's early days yet. It seems to me that
she's trying to come up with a solution
that will be acceptable to most voters
prior to the election. Whether she's
successful only time will time. It is a
complex issue that does not appear to be
an "easy fix," for any politician. How does
one remove the profitability of the trade
of people smuggling and the dangers of the
voyage? How does one remove the incentives
for boats to leave their ports of origin in
the first place? Gillard says that a
regional processing center within a regional
protection framework is the answer. But
desperate people may have other ideas.

Foxy, I understand where you are comming from, however, you must remember that the majority of 'big businesses corps' actually belong to thousands, if not millions of share holders, most of which are not rich in thier own right.

Now as for madam PM trying to get her policies in order in readiness for the upcomming election. Where was she when she was deputy PM backing every move from here apparent admired boss.

The voters are not stupid, they can see she is trying her hardest to get this soughted and get her 'ducks in a row' but remember, one hot day doesn't make a summer.

Now this may come as a shock to you, but I will vote for her if she comes good with the goods, although I do think it's a gamble considering her level of support given to Rudds failed ways while holding the office of deputy PM.

I am more concerned with what will happen if they do get back in and go about wasting more billions we simply don't have. Remember, we still have to fix the insulation scandel labor has caused, or at least allowed to happen.

The cost of fixing it is most likely to maske the wasted money in the scheme look like 'tuck shop' money.

Dear Rehctub,

You sound like a reasonable and logical
man. I don't have all the answers to the big
questions, if I did I'd go into politics.
(Just joking). Seriously though, let's wait
and see what happens next. At present I
don't much like what's happening in politics
either. And I don't know how things will pan
out. I do know though what I don't want.
But I'm willing to wait and see what happens
next. That's all I can do at present.

"...so the underachievers, often the 'tall poppies' can enjoy thier pension".

Gee whizz Rechtub you were doing wonderfully well until you blew it with the above line. My parents are business people yet they dont look down at their employees or any other person who later receives a pension as 'under-achievers'. Look out Rechtub as the saying goes: what goes around comes around; keep a close eye on primary industries; meat being one of them, although I do wish you and your family well working hard as most people do.