Come, come Yabby...."None of this however changes the basic fact that today, Australian workers largely own the means of production, which would make old Marx turn in his grave".. and they also own vast tracts of Australia, including all the mineral wealth, apart from the wide-brown bits bits excised for you and PH...and AGIR, but that makes them no better off either.

"Simply increasing taxpayers to pay for it, is hardly sustainable".. but super is another form of taxation, private taxation, being a compulsory 'benefit' with no escape.

"Most people simply can't be bothered" is a reflection of the problems involved with being engaged in the arcane mysteries of 'wealth creation', as in getting something for nothing, that is not a feature of the workers lives, here or anywhere else I'd wager.

"... the basic fact that today, Australian workers largely own the means of production, which would make old Marx turn in his grave".. someone, it could have been me but I think it was someone else, has already pointed out that without the direct control of the money or investment, there is no real ownership of it.

The workers at Woolies no more 'own' it than they 'own' Coles or Myers, or BHP or any other company.

True, their wages have been taken from them, lent at bargain basement rates, and remain at high risk throughout, but there is no control by the woman at the till, or the man stacking shelves, and certainly no sense of 'ownership' by them, or would the CEO of Woolies wish that either.

"Since then wages have increased by around 20% above inflation, so workers caught up. The levy is still paid by employers by force of Govt".. indeed, we agree on something at last, but since the first wage offsets by workers to glean back their 3% 'first tranche' as Keating might call it, employers have factored the costs into production, so pay none of it, as always, with the costs borne by the customers, frequently the same workers... and so The Joke continues, as ever.

*and they also own vast tracts of Australia, including all the mineral wealth*

Not so TBC, the states own mineral wealth. Check your constitution.

*but super is another form of taxation, private taxation, being a compulsory 'benefit' with no escape.*

Not so TBC, for super does not go to the Govt, it goes to private
individuals. It is a sensible way of provisioning for old age,
for as we know, Aussies would rather blow 20 billion on gambling,
then worry about the future. Some people simply can't help themselves.
It takes Govt regulation for them to do so and see reason. For they
have to live somehow, once they retire. Plenty of Grey Nomads who
travel around Australia with their 4wds and caravans, benefit from
the super story. You are just very cynical it seems, despite the
overwhelming evidence.

*has already pointed out that without the direct control of the money or investment, there is no real ownership of it.*

Workers do in fact control their own super. It is invested where
they choose to invest it, in their name.Yes they can't spend it,
its for retirement, not for peeing it against the wall now and then
falling back on taxpayers for a living. Fair enough.

*True, their wages have been taken from them, lent at bargain basement rates, and remain at high risk throughout*

TBC, there are no bargain basement rates. If companies make good
profits, workers benefit from higher dividend payments. If companies
are doing it tough, so do their owners, the workers.

*employers have factored the costs into production, so pay none of it, as always, with the costs borne by the customers *

Not so TBC. Farmers for instance are compensated by nobody, for
Australian super costs. Export markets don't allow for super.
So farmers and other exporters wear the full cost. But what it comes
down to is this. Either it pays to produce something or it does
not. If it does not, we'll forget the idea or go offshore, where
these costs don't apply.

Poirot “Being labelled "wrong" by your one-dimensional self is something I shall wear as a badge of honour.”

Then, you likely have so many “wrong” badges, you could tile the roof of your house with them.

As for myself, i know what you think of me and for some reason, I feel complete unthreatened by it.

The difference between your sort of politics and my sort of politics,
My politics leave you free to choose

Your politics would condemn me, my children and millions of other people to a mere existence, the crushing poverty and abuse experienced by the millions who died at the hands of other collectivists and anarchists who knew how to tear down what works and replace it with nothing at all.

The politics of the vacuous collectivists promotes an immoral cause by harnessing the energy of the base emotional drivers of envy.

You cannot answer the questions Peter Hume has asked you

I have answered yours but you fail to produce a single example of where collectivism did not end up in either incompetent waste, like the incumbent Australian government who has squandered billions on pointless school halls and failed insulation schemes to the mass murderers who lorded it over the bones of Russians, Chinese, North Koreans and Cambodians.

The USSR failed because not only could it not compete, it could not even feed its population.

China has changed because it could not compete or feed its population in its purist Marxist/Maoist form

Enough of failure

If the collectivists put the same energy into building there own future as they spend on being jealous of those who spend their energy building there own future they would find some things happen

1 they are likely to be financially better off
2 they are likely to be happier people

Like Ronald Reagan said

“How do you tell a communist?
Well, it’s someone who reads Marx and Lenin.
And how do you tell an anti-Communist?
It’s someone who understands Marx and Lenin.”

And Norman Mailer

“The function of socialism is to raise suffering to a higher level."”

Oh, how silly of me... "the states own mineral wealth. Check your constitution"..so, do please remind me... what are 'the states' composed of?

Could they be made up of Australian citizens?

Or are they extensions of BHP, as they appear to be, particularly in Qld?

Funny how you support state coercion for super but seem to deny the role of government elsewhere.

"lent at bargain basement rates"... Gresham's Law... with sqillie-trillions of dollars available, needing a home, of course the rate is very low, meanwhile, the 'wurkers' pay extortion rates for all sorts of credit they, and the Capitalists, need to be taken out to keep the global Ponzi scam going at full-steam-ahead.

"If companies are doing it tough, so do their owners, the workers"... now you really are tugging yourself.

"Farmers for instance are compensated by nobody, for Australian super costs. Export markets don't allow for super. So farmers and other exporters wear the full cost".

Farmers are renowned for paying for very little themselves. Subsidised to the hilt, through good times and bad, they mine the land as if they were an arm of BHP.

No doubt another exporter you are thinking of is the hard-done-by mining area, almost done out of the market place by the super costs?

Farmers do 'take' prices, since they are the standard bearers of 'free trade' (subsidised by taxpayers) without realising they are also the playthings of 'bankers' with their non-existent 'products' distorting the global prices of food stuffs, and always moan when their crops fail when it's too hot, too cold, too wet, too dry, looking for the dole and cheap loans while continuing to work their land and complain about... 'dole bludgers', yet still manage to send their kids to boarding schools, keep the coastal house and stack of off-farm goodies.

Clearly there is room within their prices to pay for whatever super they might pay, but don't forget, there are very few agricultural workers these days, and many that are there are casuals, and do not qualify for super.

*Could they be made up of Australian citizens?*

They are indeed Australian citizens. But you personally, have no
rights to minerals in your name. Unlike your super account,
which you claim is not actually yours, which is in your name.

As it happens, WA owns most of the minerals and subsidises States
such as Victoria, NSW etc.

*If companies are doing it tough, so do their owners, the workers"... now you really are tugging yourself.*

Well its a fact. If BHP or the banks pay a lower dividend, there
is less in your super account. Quite simple really and cannot
be denied.

*Farmers are renowned for paying for very little themselves.*

Not so, farmers sell on a global export market and for years carried
the country by paying high tariffs on shoddy local products. Thankfully some of those tariffs have now been removed, but not all.

Australian farmers are still largely globally competitive, unlike
most of Australian manufacturing.

*Clearly there is room within their prices to pay for whatever super they might pay*

Well they are like manufacturing. Pay it or close down. The
point is, as with those manufacturers who do export, they pay
it, not the workers.

Australian workers have some of the world's cushiest bells and
whistles, yet as we see in your case, its nothing but moan and
groan, bitch and complain.

Yabby “Either it pays to produce something or it does
not. If it does not, we'll forget the idea or go offshore, where
these costs don't apply”

Very important point – going off shore.

One right wing politician observed

"If one generation is expected to carry an excessive burden on behalf of another, it will seek by every means to avoid it. It will either demand that past promises are broken, or it will not work, or it will not pay taxes, or the most talented people will leave. Socialist governments which have tried to tax 'till the pips squeak' have ample experience of that." –

When people with talent, vision and ability choose to emigrate, the added value which they would otherwise generate for the benefit of the wider community goes with them.

Some Collectivists/Communists recognised this danger and built walls and machine gun towers to keep them in, the Berlin Wall for example.....

Other collectivists/communist, rather than acknowledge an individual’s right of dissent opted to murder them instead.

I see TBC has degenerated into sarcasm in an effort to hide the shortcomings of his debating skill.

Typical, just another example of a collectivist trying his best to tear down what works and replace it with what all collectivists have plenty of:-

Nothing !