Shadow Minister.....hi 5 mate..exxxxactly!

SQueers.. I can see you are at least sincere in your beliefs.

The questions you need to address are:

1/ Will people WILLINGly embrace a system which opens our borders to every other member of the human race ?

2/ If they did..what would happen to our quality of life and security?

3/ Arn't you really saying "I want to rule the world... MY way" ?

You seem to be suggesting that there is an 'ideology' out there which will fix humanity and our planet.

Mate..if there was.. we would have been 'fixed' centuries ago.

As I keep saying..WE are the problem. "all have sinned" and the fix is not a new idea..but a new birth. Even that won't fix global human relations.. but it will bring about mini utopia's where Christ reigns in peoples hearts and lives.

The best you can expect is for small clusters of renewed people.. living renewed lives in a social utopia which see's them looking not just for their own self interest but..as the Good Book says:

//4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.//Phil 2:4

and.. we do. You might have seen a detective Seargent invterviewed on TV last night regarding some Ugandan Orphans in a choir... that Policeman happens to belong to our 'cult' as CJ loves to say....
In fact he was in my own congregation for a long time.. he..along with others from our fellowship..built the school rooms and dorms in Uganda at our own expense.

But the issue of looking after 'others' also. referred to in the verse above..is preceeded by this:

//1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.// Phil 2:1-3

Sahdow Minister:
<Funny how in most of the established capitalist countries the populations are declining, only to be topped up with refugees from authoritarian regimes whose birth rates are exploding.>

Dear Shadow Minister,
as I hope I've made clear above, we can't go on thinking in terms of nationalism. Late capitalism is a global phenomenon and "world systems theory" is much more appropriate; it has been used to describe the "silk road" etc, how much more appropriate then for a truly global phenomenon?
I would think that my posts above establish the case against provincialism, though please feel free to argue the point.
Declining population growth in "[E]stablished capitalist countries" is due to a culture of glut, I would suggest, best exemplified by Japanese stagflation; but that condition is inseparable from the global paradigm in which it was achieved, no?
Frankly though, SM, are you prepared to revise your views should argument prove compelling?

Dear Yabby,
as I said in the other thread:
<Dear Yabby,
We're actually close to agreement. Absolutely, it's about human nature, about "self-interest" and the "profit motive", these are the driving forces behind capitalism and why it's so successful.>

Humans defer ethics in favour of pragmatics.

Squeers, you can accuse capitalism of enabling human innovation,
thus dragging hundreds of millions out of poverty, unlike any
other system has been able to do.

If you think that we'd be better off, all being poor, well that is
your right.

Capitalism has also meant that people who can afford it and who
are not limited by Govt, can make free choices about how many
children that they have. Where they have this choice, most
have chosen smaller families, less children. It is in countries
where people don't have these options, that population growth
is a problem.

So don't blame capitalism for a rising population. Blame politics
and religion.

Yabby it is not that capitalism 'causes' high populations as some sort of unplanned natural event, it is that it encourages the desire for higher populations ie. more people = more consumers = growth.

High populations in developing worlds are due to a number of reasons such as lack of access to birth control, status of women and lack of a social security infrastructure.

It is the lack of social security or welfare that also leaves people in the dire poverty of the 3rd World.

You are missing the point. We are talking about not "what is" as the pragmatic approach you take but "what could be". Ethics and capitalism are not necessarily at odds, as a world we have just let it run rampant without some of the checks and balances and without democratic input from the populace.

Yabby, there might even be some areas you can see room for improvement.

*it is that it encourages the desire for higher populations ie. more people = more consumers = growth.*

Well that might just be the opinion of some limited capitalists,
but perhaps just lazy ones. For me know that a great product,
a great service, a great idea etc, can be transformed around the
world to other countries. Dick Smith has actually been on about this
a bit, growth of capitalism without unsustainable population growth.

*as a world we have just let it run rampant without some of the checks and balances and without democratic input from the populace.*

That really depends on the country. Most countries have a host
of rules and regulations, decided by their govts. Too much red
tape would be as large a problem, it keeps many people poor.

That is the amusing thing really. Try starting a business in much
of the third world and govt officials who take themselves and their
own welfare very seriously, will bog you down in red tape. So
many don't bother. So poor and unefficient Govt is perhaps a far
larger problem, then worries about capitalism.

Does capitalism drive population growth?

It is good question Squeers, and a very important one.

Capitalism does drive population growth inasmuch as it promulgates the spiral of constantly increasing productivity and constantly increasing markets to keep the productivity increasing. Domestic population growth is thus very strongly pushed by various sectors of the business fraternity, and population growth in countries that are our main trading partners is encouraged all the way.

But I’m not sure that capitalism is the major problem. There is afterall population growth in third world countries and in non-capitalist regimes to the same or larger extents, and very low population growth in some capitalist countries.

The major issue is surely our political shortcomings, especially the very cosy relationship between politicians and big business.

One of the absolutely fundamental duties of government is to protect our future, our environment and our quality of life, now and forever more. This is constantly compromised by the push from the business sector for growth and the inadequate political structure to resist it and do what is in the best interests of the whole community in the long term. Governments where is any pressure for expansionism have been dismally poor in this regard.

So yes there is an inherent drive for growth within capitalism, or perhaps just within human nature, or within the nature of all living things to keep pushing for expansion, that is part of the problem. But the main problem as I see it is our terribly inadequate political system and quality of governance that allows this continuous expansionist ethic to override the sustainability and commonsense ethic.

Can capitalism lead ultimately to a sustainable and equitable world for all?

Yes!

If the political will is there that can guide capitalism, then it can be done. But of course the will of the people needs to be there in order for the political will to develop. And unfortunately the minds of the masses are not likely to be galvanised until we suffer major consequences of unfettered expansionism.