(I once met a subsistence farmer/hunter in the Solomon Islands. The whole village only had one lantern. Only the headman had a shirt, and they used *a shell* (not a knife) to cut vegetables. The headman complained that he did not have enough money to pay the $8 a year poll tax. I asked what he wanted more money for. He said to buy kerosene, sugar and soap. I suggested that if he had them, then he would “want more, want more”. He looked at me with all sincerity and said “No.” But we know that’s not right, don’t we Squeers? Because if he had a TV, he would still want to surf the internet, wouldn’t he? )

*If* people chose to live less, to be less healthy, to have no children, to travel less, and so on, *then* there is no reason why capitalism should entail endless growth. The fact that they choose more shows that the problem is not that capitalism is driving the consumption of natural resources, but that people choose to liver longer, be more healthy, satisfy more wants etc. Capitalism enables them to do so. But the arguments of those who fear it is unsustainable are with this human tendency, rather than capitalism per se, since in the absence of this human tendency to want ever more, capitalism would not entail endless growth.

By the way, Squeers has not established that capitalism *is* unsustainable. When I pointed this out, he merely repeated his belief that "It just is" and referred to absent authority and the opinions of others. I understand he thinks it's so obvious it goes without saying. But that is not a proof and what seems to be common sense can be wrong. We are talking about something much much much more complex than whether the sun goes around the earth, and Squeers has less reason to rely on common sense than those who thought that that was self-evident.

My next attempt will be to demolish the Malthusian error of assuming that we are faced with finite resources.

Peter Hume,

It would be nice to think that humans could be capable of existing quite happily by embracing an economic model somewhere between subsistence and outrageous fortune.

("Spifflicatingly" - excellent word, What Ho!)

Peter Hume – loved the German coal- solar energy illustration.

The law of unintended consequences

Illustrating that even where people vote for a socialist leaning government, there is still a little capitalist in each one of them, eager to put personal gain in front of collective responsibility.

I see Squeers is familiar with the term “syllogistic”, doubtless because it applies to his non-existent alternatives to the capitalist system which works.

Regarding “In truth I have no doubt but that there are any amount of superior alternatives to the capitalist obscenity whose tentacles entwine the globe”

Well, Doctor Who not withstanding, you must be very ignorant on the matter if not one of these multiple “superior alternatives” can be brought to mind.

The French Model – brought about the Terror, the Great Terror and to top it all, descended Europe into sustained conflict for decades under Napoleon.

The USSR model.... revolutionary installation but could not feed its population

The Chinese model.... imposed one-child family laws because it could not feed or house its population

The North Korean Model – imprisons families to avoid their legitimate demands for food

The Mugabe model – elected but bulldozed house, raped the economy and lets people starve in the streets

And the Cuban model – ships people to USA to save prison housing

The Albanian model produced economic stagnation and left Albania 50 years behind the rest of the world and had internal exile (concentration) camps to deal with anyone who they thought might dissent.

The East German model – Stasi – say no more except – death from climbing the Berlin Wall was a preferred option to living under the East German anti-capitalist model

The Romanian experience in collectivism, installed through fraud at the ballot box and ending with the (almost public) execution of Ceausescu and his wife

The Cambodian model, killed anyone with an education was brought down by communist neighbour


lots of examples of collectivism (the most common alternative adopted to capitalism), mostly installed through violent revolution or vote rigging

Not one of them producing anything which free people would choose.

Poirot “It would be nice to think that humans could be capable of existing quite happily by embracing an economic model somewhere between subsistence and outrageous fortune.”

Yet it seems to evade us all, every time.

So, rather than ponder on what “would be nice”

I prefer to spend my time trying to work with “what is”

But I doubt you could think of a single improved solution because

The “collectivist” model has some shortcomings -
You don’t get to choose the population
You don’t get to determine other peoples motivations
You don’t get to play God

And thats why you cannot find a better alternative to the free market economics of capitalism

Like one right wing politician said “There can be no liberty unless there is economic liberty.”
And
“Popular capitalism is nothing less than a crusade to enfranchise the many in the economic life of the nation.”

Conversely “anti-capitalism” is the crusade to dis-enfranchise them.

“Regulating” people, to ensure their equality

Does nothing but subordinate their individual spirit to a life of slavery.

Do please tell me when you think you have a “superior alternative” to “libertarian capitalism”

but I am not holding my breath.

In short, the smugness which eminates from the intellectualistic criticism of what works, with convoluted theories about what has been proved repeatedly to fail, is not becoming.

Very coy, Col. Now we're back to (unattributed) quotes from the odious Thatcher.

I'm just waiting for you to start ranting about "Socialism by Stealth". It can't be long now...

Once again, welcome back Col Rouge. Why the change of moniker?

Stern states:

>> The “collectivist” model has some shortcomings -

You don’t get to choose the population

You don’t get to determine other peoples motivations

You don’t get to play God >>

WOW

Thanks for the excellent definition of FASCISM.

Your "liberty" sounds a lot like servitude.