Dear Severin,

It is interesting how the need for absolute conformity kicks in big time during adolescence.

Dear Foxy,

We have methods for dealing with those who don't conform with accepted norms in a way that disrupts of harms the rest of society. If the behaviour is too unacceptable we lock them up. I'm more interested in the type of non-conformist who is seen as eccentric - who delight in "doing their own thing" and yet not really hurting anybody - and how they manage to "block out" societies expectations.
You had an interesting experience in the company of your African friends - society judges us all the time, as you discovered. However, you also made your own judgment on the situation and rejected its reaction.

Dear Houellbecq,

Maybe we'll see you back again later in the thread.

Cheer

Tres Bon Poirot.

Humans are social animals and historically (and evolutionary wise) the collective has always provided safety and security.

Forgive the analogy but I like watching my chooks. They are a social bunch and each of them are rarely seen to far from the flock. Sometimes there will be an encroaching magpie shriek and they all run together to the group. Of course they are more interested in the physical security the group provides than any shared ideological or philosophical views.

Which is why some people find multiculturalism sits uneasily with them. No-one really cares what colour skin anyone has or how they dress but more it is the way we think that is threatened when opposing or different lifestyles are perceived as a threat to a way of life. Humans have always been tribal - like the Scottish clan system which gave people a sense of identity and security within different geographic locales - each clan even go their own tartan.

In some ways differences can be seen as eccentric or quaint traits where the difference really doesn't matter, it is the big stuff that is threatening which is why people gravitate to like-minded.

Then there are the determinists who belive there is no such thing as free will, every experience, event is causally linked to a chain of events from the past. Then you have the compatibilists like Hobbes and Hume who believe determinism and libertarianist principles are compatible - free will being one link in the chain of events.

All interesting stuff that can make your head hurt if you think about it for too long. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

a great topic...it draws me back to my first posts on the www..

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=ming+the+mechanic+holons&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

i will wade back through time later...but it cayught my eye [the laast line..about if others find it hard to be different[i wouldnt admit to it..but yes...but i guess we all chose to incarnate for divergent reasons[and we each got a life previeuw...thus have no others to blame

i explained about that a long time ago too

i could/maybe should draw together all the thought i had on the topic..but its so much like the closing of a circle...while still holding my cards close to my chest

how to explain what life is like being deespised by all...yet knowing you only have to try and be nice...and others will accept the you your trying to pretend to be...then when your simply being you..told to stop pretending

other build expectations...have no idea about true love of all...even thyne enemies[especially those who most despise you]...anyhow i fel like the circle has drawn closer..so wil take the hint and egsamin the beginning at the mechanic with new eyes..go return to the 10 th insight and the mogana forum..where though a lone..became as close to a oneness as an outcast can be

anyhow im tired,just thought i would visit...and see how everyone is[submitted my apeal to the courts..and waiting for the lawyers to reply]i should explain more...but not much more to say,,its all in the 244 page/brief...lol,,asking the servants of the state to show their authority to act...

its not easy being green...especially when you realise its just skin deep..not like al gore but more like all gore...dog eat dog..where you either hunt with the hounds or get eaten by them..food for the gist...where simply a little leven/fluffs up the whole loaf

OUG, Thats the funny thing about life. No humans holds the key, and the world as one comes into play once again.

TTm

Where is oliver? The person on..................smile.

TT

it would take life-times to explain
http://ming.tv/flemming2.php/__show_article/_a000010-001263.htm#comments

so i will quote/react,...into this new format

<<On Blog/of Collective Intelligence..Jean-Francois Noubel mentioned an interview/with Ken Wilber..where he talks/about the distinction between individual and social holons:

Briefly:..individual holons/are holons..with a subjective interior(prehension,/awareness,/consciousness);..they have/a defining pattern (code,agency,regime)..that emerges spontaneously/from within (autopoietic);

<<and they have four drives(agency,communion,eros,agape).

Examples of individual holons..(or compound individuals)..include quarks,atoms,molecules,cells,organisms....

Social holons/emerge..when individual holons commune;..they also have a defining pattern(agency or regime),but they..do not have..a subjective consciousness;

instead,they have distributed/or inter-subjective>>inter-subjigated?..their individualised<consciousness.>>into a mindless..dependance..upon the action of other/controling mechanisms

<<Examples include galaxies,planets,crystals,ecosystems,families,tribes,communities....>>religions beliefs...govt...higher envisionings that have subjicated their loner depenances...into serving an often disfunctioning/or overweklming allness...that resolves conflicts..but is niot the best/individualised result...in all cases

<<Both individual/and social..are holons,and they both follow the twenty tenets...Actually,..individual/and social holons..are not different entities,..but different aspects/of all holons,..since all holons..have an interior/and an exterior..in singular and plural forms..(the four quadrants),..but they are indeed/different aspects that cannot be..merely equated.

And/as he points out,..when you confuse these/with each other,..it becomes a mess.

Example:..when you decide to lift your arm,/and you lift it,..all the cells in your arm go along...None of them decide to disagree..and go somewhere else...They are parts of your arm,..and subject to your centralized will.

But..a society works very differently...People are not parts,..but members,/with their own individual wills...Rulers with fascistic tendencies..will often try to/make..society work..as if its members are parts..that simply are cogwheels/that..have to..go along with the program,..and that/never really works.

The idea is..that an individual holon..has a coherent sentience,/whereas a social holon..is some kind of collaborative negotiation..between its members.

Of course/all holons have both aspects..at the same time...The point is to not confuse/the roles with each other,..or it becomes apples and oranges.

Now,..he's right of course,..and it is as usual/a brilliant way of putting it...But it also makes me think.

In a society,/yes,..it obviously isn't/just a top-down hierarchy,..no matter what kind of fascist police-state/dictator..is trying to run it...But groups still act..in many ways/as individual-holons...Just not in that predictable..one-dimensional manner.