So "cut & run" (which actually equals both "its all too hard" and "kill em all and let god sort 'em out") is your option?

Jeez, that must have took a lot of thought.. I mean, what a complex, well considered plan that one is...

We are there now, why exactly aren't we trying something, anything, to try and improve the lot of the average Afghan?

We are not involved in the Hamid Khazi government, that is the Americans and you are right, it is the most squalid, corrupt government that has been propped up from outside, since, well the UN propped up the Palestinian Authority.

It has done nothing to build/rebuild infrastructure or undertake any planning for the social, political or economic stability/feasibility of any of the regions/villages, it has just taken the money to stay in power.

The average Taliban supporter in Afghanistan, supports the Taliban for one major reason, law & order, and for a better deal than is available under the warlords.

Show them, actually deliver, that the same is available without resorting to Sharia law, and then we have a chance. I can offer no proof, we have never bothered to even try this out at home (on the isolated aboriginal communities), but SOMETHING has to work (our own history tells us this - sectarian violence, religious intolerance and violence, etc. aren't that far back in our history).

How sad, people argue purely from an unwillingness to consider alternatives, sure, you have the upper hand, laziness and intolerance always does.

Personally I thought going in there was a mistake, it is a 'tarbaby', but we are there now and in order to get out with any credibility whatsoever, we are going to have to try something new.

>>> My problem is we greatly DE-creased world security and spread the initial damage that happened under old Afghanistan over a much wider area. And we had almost 10 years to make a positive change. <<<

Completely agree. To those who believe eliminating the poppy fields is easier than controlling them, please have a rethink. By controlling the fields other cash crops can be introduced and the Afghanis will be able to make a living - isn't that what the invasion was all about? Freeing Afghanis? As for the threat of drug cartels - well they are a bigger threat now, at least their influence would be minimised. I get the feeling that because there is no easy solution there are those who think that continuing what has failed to work for a decade is better than nothing. It is worse than nothing.

Yeah, that's right, self-determination with a little assistance is way too hard, let's put it in that basket and ignore it - oh we'll send aid, but we can hardly expect a predominantly agrarian economy to transition from an agrarian economy overnight...

The price paid per field of poppies does not exceed greatly what the farmers would be paid for wheat, which is needed as it currently bought into the country as aid.

Leaving the poppies in place leaves the greed & corruption in place. Let them go back to growing wheat and other crops, and punish those who try and make them grow poppies.

Yeah, I know, muslim Countries far too difficult to try and make them work (http://www.theotheriraq.com/)... We just have to let them stay in the dark ages, ignore their rulers abuses of human rights and feel sorry for them...

That's right, I'm sorry, the muslims are simply too backward to ever make a go of anything aren't they?

I mean, that is what people here are effectively (if not openly) saying... That the muslim people of Afghanistan are INCAPABLE of adapting to the world as it is, we should just leave them in a backwater and let them run free? Perish the thought we'd ever try and teach them anything or help them along the path to self-determination...

Yet, if I said the same about the West Bank or Gaza I'd be pilloried and abused from both right and left. Oh yeah, Israel is involved there isn't it? Still, we can't expect to much of them... Read up on Azerbaijan and Kurdistan. Two Moslem countries that HAVE shared the oil wealth almost equitably, have instituted rights (actually universal suffrage existed in Azerbaijan before England), etc.

Maybe there is some hope? But let's squander it in favor of doing nothing... Much, much easier really, it is. Let's leave them with the poppies and the warlords, don't worry about their standard of living, it ain't our problem is it? We'll just keep sending them wheat while they send us heroin (well, they can't exactly grow both can they?)..

It seems that many have difficulty understanding beyond their own limited "indoctrinated/experiential" perspectives.

Some seem to have the attitude that 'these' people are fundamentally different from 'us'. Sadly this is a *learned* ATTITUDE.

I would defy others to show me how the Afghans are FUNDAMENTALLY different from how we would be if in the same untenable situation.

They simply want stability (some form predictable Law & Order) in which to run their lives. If that means Sharia law and that is the only viable/ understood alternative then so be it. While from our Western middle class perspective it is harsh, even primitive it is non the less provides the basic predictability.

From their perspective our system is clearly too easily corrupted/circumvented. Keep in mind that literacy and understanding of other systems are either extremely limited or non existent.

Democracy etc.are learned concepts. Integral in these are a enforceable set of checks and balances. Faith or allegiance to such concepts are generated after the first couple of levels in Maslow's Pyramid of *needs* are the norm.

I find comments about "*their* greed" arrogant both myopic and hypercritical that is born from an underlying concept of *they* should be grateful for our largess.

IMHO Afghan if winnable ( stable govt) but NOT by the strategies *as implemented*. It is too little, too militaristic, too ad hoc

Oh spare us the paternalistic colonialistic attitude custard, because that's all it is. WE don't like the way they are, so we should help these poor people be better! (although despite all their neighbours managing to evolve into moderate democracies despite their own adversities, the Afghanis seem to be sticking to fundamentalism even without the Taliban).

Also, you seem to have been suckered into the "Charlie Wilson's War" thinking that if you (an outside power) just build hospitals, schools and modern luxury, religious fundamentalism will just go away from the people's minds. Try studying the real world for five minutes (although you might need 20) and let me know what you learned.

And don't try to smear the racist attitude on me- because I'm comparing other countries in the Middle East against Afghanistan. Including Iraq, which has been faring considerably better even withOUT our help despite its worse circumstances.

And for the fourth time, you ignore the other issues I and many others have raised, namely the negative side-effects that will pour out from attempts to 'make the place better', which leads me to conclude that you can't comprehend them. And worse, you still cling to your lame solutions that we already explained won't work, met with the equivalent of "But I'm SURE they'll work, you just need to believe!"

Last chance to answer my questions Custard. Not whinge about me having a bad attitude, not pretending I'm really about something else, not avoiding it and pretending it's not really there, answer them.
The questions are, in words even you will understand:
What about the Taliban now moving to neighbouring countries and oppressing the people there (who are actually moderate as opposed to Shariah-lite)?
What about the vaccuum left from the only Shariah country towards fundamentalists around the world?
HOW do you plan on getting rid of these, along with the Karzai government Custard?
Also please do cite any past successes of creating the global movements required to fully address all the problems, or even cases of successful domestic change on a country like Afghanistan.

WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT THE TALIBAN (OR OTHER EXTREMISTS) WHERE NOT ALREADY IN PAKISTAN? (THAT IS WHERE THEY CAME FROM CLOWN)

What? You don't have any? Would that be because the region you refer to has never been under effective governmental control in the History of the Raj, India or Pakistan itself?

Please, go read up on some history - especially the bit dealing with the breakup of the Raj, the demise of Elphinstone's Army (in the Khyber pass which connects NE Afghanistan with NW Pakistan), the wars between Pakistan & India, the training of the Mujahadeen in Pakistan (in Wahabist schools funnily enough - isn't it strange that many think they are new inventions?) to fight the Soviets...

Get off your little trip mate, the Wahabist Schools existed long before the Taliban takeover (from the Mujahadeen & Warlords, who in turn took over from the Soviets). They aren't new and exist (a) because of the fact that the Pakistani Government has lacked the will and capacity to deal with its NW Region (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khyber_Pakhtunkhwa), the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and (b) because of the Wahabist fundamentalists who are funded by Saudi Arabia.

Examinator, I agree (unusually), that there is hope - provided the military can secure the area long enough for the reconstruction to progress, there is hope. Unfortunately, security is necessary, otherwise the job would be so much easier. In terms of democracy, I'm not at all sure they are ready to embrace it yet (they are just emerging from a feudal past), maybe in the future, but democracy is the least of the concerns here.

The major difficulty lies with the US, are they willing to try to deal with the locals as equals or try to lord it over them (as they are doing with Hamid Khazi). Time will tell. Despite that, I honestly believe that the British and Australian Armies have the willpower and ability to work with the locals, to help them rebuild, convert back to a self-sustaining economy and govern themselves, one village, town, city or region at a time. It is a long road.