Pelican:"Those who are 'dole bludging' are not looking for jobs Anti, whether all those evil women, are taking those jobs is irrelevant."

Yes, your language does give you away, doesn't it? The whole point is that many boys are on the dole simply because there is not work available for them in their area, therefore, the fact that girls are doing those jobs is very relevant. Boys, especially boys from the lower rungs of society, can't get a foot in to either work or higher study.

There can be all sorts of "sound" reasons given by employers, including that the girls have better educational attainment and are better-presented and (as you point out) even boys who aren't smart can lift heavy things. None of that changes the fact that many boys are sitting on the dole because they can't get work and they don't have good enough school results or enough family money to get into uni, while apprenticeships are like hen's teeth.

Do you see that as a good social outcome? If so, in what way?

But Anti, boys and girls are both human beings. What about the jobs that boys are doing in the main that girls might want to do. Does it matter if Maccas has boys in the back and girls out the front (although that has changed over the years).

I don't get your logic. It is like saying these people can't get jobs because there are other people doing them. Gender is irrelevant.

I could ask why are there more male CEOs than female? Is this a good social outcome? If so, in what way? You could forever go around in circles Anti, finding sectors that are female or male dominated just to suit a particular argument.

The matter at hand is welfare cheating and Abbott's plans to deal with it not whether it is the fault of one gender over another. You don't really believe that welfare cheating is another feminist conspiracy?

Pelican, noone suggests that the girls should not be given opportunities, merely that in the process of ensuring that they are, we have largely ignored the impact on the boys. Abbott's scheme may be a good thing if it does that, but I suspect all it'll do is cause a heap of boys to become more entrenched in their disadvantage.

You say gender is irrelevant, when it clearly is not. The same social policies that make it de rigeur to profess a commitment to discrimination in favour of girls/women are at the root of the educational disparity between the genders, which then reinforces the social barriers for boys. Let me make it real simple for you:if the majority of entry-level jobs are being given to girls as a matter of policy, how do boys enter the workforce?

I'm glad that you've raised the subject of the gender disparity at the top level, because part of the reason it exists is that few girls of the baby boomer generation and the one the followed were allowed the opportunity to compete on an equal footing with their male counterparts either in education or in promotional opportunities. Would you like to see men excluded from boards and the upper echelons of management in 20-30 years for the same reasons? That's the future we're creating with the current social engineering policies.

Welfare cheating takes many forms. Is Abbott proposing to make "single mums" on the dole with 5 kids to 4 fathers head off to Karumba on a FIFO roster? "But think of the poor children"... There was a bit of a purge of the disability pension a little while ago, but there are still lots of people with a nasty case of Mediterranean Back and other such afflictions.

Abbott's proposal isn't to do with welfare "cheating" per se, but is part of the ongoing process to ensure a mobile labour pool for remote industry. It is very much gendered, because it is almost exclusively men who go to these places. I do wish you'd stop trying to be disingenuous, you're smarter than that.

Well Abbott has said his scheme is for the under 30s and I suspect single parents (male and female) will all be exempt if it means uprooting whole families to mining areas where there is little in the way of childcare and cheap housing.

In Mt Isa one of the problems is lack of affordable housing and rental accommodation since the boom.

Anti I find it better to treat gender as irrelevant to most of life's essentials. There are discriminatory aspects to being male and female that come with the territory of culture and social values which change over time. Generally, I try not to sit at home worrying about whether Maccas has boys or girls out back or front, or about CEOs being mostly male. We all make choices and have to live with them, if a woman wants to be a CEO she is able, in today's society,to strive for that goal just as a man might wish to go into nursing.

I don't see how boys are going to be any more disadvantaged by Abbott's scheme if he brings it into being. The mining companies might have a fit though given they probably want people with good ethics and strong skills rather than those who are forced into roles they cannot or won't do to a satisfactory level.

There are better programs for long term unemployed than what Abbott is proposing although he has said that this is not yet Coalition policy. Seems as he is running up the flagpole to see which way the wind is blowing.

rehctub, I don't know what state/territory you live in, but here in W.A. we have many mining towns in our northern regions.

The housing prices and rents in those towns are astronomical!
There aren't many people able to afford to live on the dole in those mining towns, believe me!

A friend from our town went up North to a new job in Karratha, but was back in 3 months because the rent was $1500 a week plus, for a
3 bed/1 bath hole!
Many mining town jobs are now fly-in/fly-out jobs for that reason.

I agree that many people on the dole aren't trying to find jobs.
I don't know what the answer is, but refusing people under 30 the dole seems a bit rough. The long-term dole recipients should also be penalized in some way surely?

There are many legitimate job-seekers out there though. How does Abbott think they will work out who is genuine or not?

A former workmate of mine (in his 40's) was out of a job for over a year. He kept on trying though.
He is now working at our local MacDonalds store, but says the wages are barely over the dole amount.

It must be soul-destroying for people who genuinely can't find a suitable job.

Dole Bludgers or people who receive assistance when working?

1. References and Referees

I raised an issue this week to an employment agency regarding youth employment [trades, IT, admin, retail] and the ever-changing hopping from job to job that young people do go through for a few years.

Many young people after working part-time, casually or permanently in positions for 8 months, a year or two years discover, after politely asking for a reference or Boss being a Referee, that they are told to wait until they have finished in the company or workplace OR told 'no' outright.

'Adam' leaves the position after working two years full-time and on weeekends. He finds another position and gives his previous Boss a tingle to ask for a reference [again]. The reply: 'Am sorry, Adam, our Boss no longer works here. He left a few weeks ago".

Similarly, a girl of 22yrs I know had worked for a company sourced by the public service. She worked long hard hours, worked weekend shifts at short notice, was punctual, efficient, behaved appropriately [know some people she worked with as an IT employee].

Two years later [a few weeks ago]her boss walked up to her, informed her that she had to pack her bags, attend her afternoon tea cake farewell, and that others would be following her out the door the following week. No offer of a reference or being a Referee.

2. Interview People on Centrelink payments working

I would love you to interview [fairly] some of these 'dole bludgers' you refer to and ask each of these people 'what is your work history'? 'Who were your referees'?, 'Who bullied you in the workplace'?, 'What age did you complete your schooling'? 'What were the disadvantages you had as a 16-18 year old that you identify in becoming a person on the dole now'?

3. Hours of work required in order to receive payments/Newstart

At any rate, a minimum of 15 or 25 hours is required to be worked by anyone receiving benefits these days