Suze,

Just to clarify.

I'm only talking about 'reproductive rights' (ie abortion rights), a common feminist issue where women are 'disadvantaged'.

'We all know that the bulk of fathers in the family court system have had their children willingly before their relationships broke up.

@'They are then asked to financially continue to provide financial assistance in bringing up the children after the relationship breaks up.'

As they should! I agree. My scenario is purely to bring equality into reproductive rights. Women are fighting for their rights, in a search for 'equality' in this realm, oblivious to the fact they have so many more rights than men.

'Keep it on or don't do it- it's that simple for all you boys who want to act like man-whores out there!'

Sounds like the advice to women on how to avoid rape that offends feminists so. Why is it so hard for you to accept men want the same reproductive rights as women? Women have all these rights and 'still have a long way to go' apparently to secure their 'rights' to abortion. Men have no right to abortion at all.

Foxy,

Good link..."after a woman has a baby, in Michigan and elsewhere, she has the right to give up that baby for adoption. If she exercises that right, she cuts off her own financial responsibility to the child, along with other parental rights and responsibilities. A man, by contrast, may not relinquish his financial responsibility for an unwanted child unless the biological mother shares his wish to give up the child for adoption."

Men are far behind women in reproductive rights. We have a long way to go before we have true equality for men in reproductive rights.

It's overdue!

Severin:"Ever heard of "vasectomy"?"

Ever heard of "tubal ligation"? What's sauce for the goose...

Besides, why get so dramatic? what's wrong with a diaphragm, IUD, spermicidal gels, even (gasp) the pill? why must the man submit to surgery or suffer unsatisfying sex so you can disclaim responsibility?

As for "I paid taxes", so have I. I've also fathered two kids to form the next generation and paid the cost of raising them, you haven't. why should you be exempted from paying part of the cost of raising the next generation when it's clearly to your benefit have that next generation available? What if everyone made that decision for their own selfish reasons, like you did? Would we just import it from somewhere else?

Pelican:"I wouldn't really have a clue when I was fertile, "

I bet you knew when you weren't "protected" though, didn't you?

Get off it anti, nobody has kids 'for the future of society'. That's a load of bollocks.

Breeders saying childless people are selfish, childless people saying breeders' kids are annoying and they're sick of paying middle class welfare for other peoples life choices. I'm sick of them all I tell ya!

It's a sad day when someone like me can rightfully say to so many people on this thread to grow up!

Dear Antiseptic,

To have a child or not is such a
personal decision and should only
involve the people concerned. Blaming
it on one gender or another is looking
at things through a very narrow lens,
and doesn't achieve anything constructive.
Each situation is different. The same goes
for birth control. Vasectomy, IUD or whatever,
that's an individual decision that should be
made by the people involved. Some women can't
tolerate an IUD, - their bodies reject
it or they end up with fibroids. Some men the
prospect of a vasectomy is totally abhorrent.
Again - it's a personal decision.

The same goes for having children. Whether to have
the child, or not, to raise it together or not,
is a decision that both the people involved
should make. If the father waives his responsibilities
by deserting the mother - then of course he has no
further rights in the matter if the mother decides to
go ahead with having the child. But if he accepts his
responsibilities and wants the child, then of course he
should have equal rights as a parent.

But then we all know that - I can't understand why
we're even discussing it - like it's some new
discovery. Why does gender even have to come into
these discussions? And why does it have to be so
predictably hostile? And often personal? We're
strangers - we don't really know each other -
so why does this have to happen - lighten up!

The standard of debate here is APPALLING!

@Severin: 'Clearly you believe women are completely useless at pregnancy and raising children.' WTF? WhoTF said that? Grow up man.

@suze: 'supposed problem of all these money mad women rushing out to have babies.' WTF? 'ggrieved, anti single mother brigade' WT? Where has anyone mentioned single mothers or women being money mad women?

Peter H spent a lot of time explaining his philosophical arguments about breaking down the patriarchy in places where men are constrained, they were interesting theoretical and unemotionally and reasonably put. I made a simple point about 'reproductive rights' for men.

But look at the pathetically childish waah waah responses.

It seems impossible for some to look at a topic in a purely objective, theoretical, non-emotional level. Just like benk asking quite reasonably 'how does someone taking pictures of clothed/semi-clothed kids in public hurt anyone regardless of whether he's a paedo.' on another thread.

He got crucified with all this emotional irrational hateful misrepresentations.

Not often you have to say this on OLO, but the women need to lift their game this time!

PS: anti also, but who's gonna hold their breath for that one.

To summarise the whole last part of the thread...

Women hold all the rights in the event of a mistake in the use of contraception in the decision of whether to abort or continue with a pregnancy.

Therefore they should rightfully hold more responsibility in the use of contraception in the first place, to match their superior rights.

Men should protect themselves from this inequality and their lack of power over failed contraception by accepting the reality of the situation. Just as women should not walk alone down dark alleys in lingerie and shout 'rape condoner' to anyone who tells them this is a dangerous thing to do, men should wear a condom.