Hi all, I have just finished reading the book Intractable by Bernie Matthews, this book was the greatest book I have ever read, outsiders dont know what goes on in the prison systems, fair enough they did the crime they pay the time but there is only so much voilence and bashing a man can handle. Not sure if anyone is on my level. I would like to hear from anyone who has read this book please. Thanks.

Hi there Colleen...

Indeed, I've also read Bernie Matthews book. The lengthy description of his incarceration in Grafton Gaol sounds pretty terrible for sure. What do you think of his vivid account of his time in Katingal? Would you believe that he 'suffered' more at the hands of a brutal physical regime at Grafton, or the psychological 'punishment' he allegedly received whilst an inmate in Katingal?

It would be nice I suppose to hear the other side of the 'Katingal experiment' . And if we did, would we believe it? Coming obviously from a prison officer.

Bernie manages to paint himself as a fairly colourful swashbuckling individual who seems to be able to 'put it over' the violent, dull minded screws, almost at will, or so it seems, prima facie?

I suppose Colleen it boils down essentially to that of Bernies account; vs the officer's account; and of course the truth, being somewhere in the middle.

If you'd like to hear the truth (or a version thereof) apropos the events concerning the operation of the Katingal Special Security Unit, during the entire time of it's being, simply give ahoy !

Kind regards...sungwu

O sung wu “It would be nice I suppose to hear the other side of the 'Katingal experiment' . And if we did, would we believe it? Coming obviously from a prison officer.”

Bernie Matthews had, because of his behaviour when he could make choices, forfeited his right to choose the prison of his internment.

Prison officers make their own choice about being where they are.

I have not and am unlikely to read the book.

I have, however, spent many days in a prison in recent times. I am sure every person who ever went to prison (prisoner or non-prisoner) could write up a good yarn about what goes on behind the bars.

If Bernie makes some "honest money" from it, all to the good.

However, one reason people end up in prison is they fail to recognize the social benefits of honesty and personal boundaries (respecting to rights and property of others).

Hence, what they write is likely to convey a similar misrepresentations of both boundaries and honesty.

Don’t try to turn a fiction into a fact, that was Lenin’s game.

I would note, prison officers have to undergo psychological evaluation before they are accepted for their role. Most prisoners would certainly fail the same test. Particularly the response to ethical standards, response to stress, respect for the rights of others, etc.

So, contrary to your view, given a choice between a prison officer and a convict, the view most people, me included, would rely on as most likely to be an “honest” repesentation of circumstances and events would be that of the prison officer.

Good afternoon to you Col R. ...

I agree with your excellent summation and take on the prison system -the clients and their keepers, and the many problems contained therein.

Myself, my only 'claim to fame' if you like, was that I was employed at KSSU from before it received it's first inmate (about seven weeks), 'til about three weeks or so from the time the last inmate was transferred to another institution. That of course, was as a consequence of the Government's decision to close the place.

My memory has diminished a little with respect to exact dates etc., but I reckon I was there for a total period of two years, and eleven months, in all. Quite a long time in my view.

Col, the ONLY reason I've contributed and persevered with this thread - it's my own small way of honouring those many exemplary Prison Officers, who served at the KSSU with distinction and humility. Who are now deceased and can no longer defend themselves, and their good fame and character, against all manner of allegations of serious misconduct et al. . I got out of the Corrective Services, in 1978 and joined the coppers (I retired a few years ago now). So my knowledge of what is happening in the 'system' today, is only garnered through 'heresay' and from former colleagues.

In closing Col, at the risk of being impertinent (I don't mean to be!) - what was your connection with prisons per se ?

Kind regards... osungwu

o sung wu “I agree with your excellent summation and take on the prison system -the clients and their keepers, and the many problems contained therein.”

Thank you, I think I misinterpreted your original post, I did not realize you were being sarcastic/sardonic when you referred to “And if we did, would we believe it? Coming obviously from a prison officer.”.

My part in prisons is fairly incidental, I supply specialist contract services to one which means residing within the walls for about 8 hours at a time several days a week.

So, I humbly and sincerely apologise for misinterpreting your post. I further endorse and respect your choice to, as you said “it's my own small way of honouring those many exemplary Prison Officers, who served at the KSSU with distinction and humility”

As you will probably agree, it is too easy for the perpetrators of crime to cry foul about the forces arrayed to protect the rest of us from them

Some 40 years ago I knew Bernie just in passing but it happened and I know his storeys about Grafton to be true.
Do not take the prison warders side too easyly, theft graft even smuggling guns and drugs into prisons have been proven.
As has male rape! some times the bars only confused the matter who was on the right side?
And its not hidden that once every person taken to Grafton was flogged on arival, by multipul teams of thugs in prison uniform.
If photos existed they would shame us all.
Unhappy with that? well it remains true and was made public years ago.
I do not think criminals are much but they are human beings and we have no right to treat them other wise.
unlike another ex crime you can beleave most of what Bernie writes.

Billy “theft graft even smuggling guns and drugs into prisons have been proven.”

And offenders prosecuted.

It remains a fact, accusations of any kind are easy to make. In Victoria the ombudsman has telephone numbers circulated through out prisons for any prisoner to call.

We have seen the indulgent and vexatious claims made by different prisoners for supposed wrongs and loss of supposed privileges. Claims made simply because they can be made.

I am not sure of how or why you “knew Bernie in passing” however, I have a family member who was in prison in Grafton briefly (Culpable driving, Long Bay, Grafton, Prison Farm)

So Regarding “And its not hidden that once every person taken to Grafton was flogged on arival,”

he has no complaints about being flogged or anything else.

So conspiracy theories and other delusions apart, I have little faith in this or any other urban legend or to put it in a few words -

sly innuendo and asides, which your post is, represents a bunch of doggie doos and has as much credibility as Bernie Matthew’s claims and defamations.

Which means we can ignore them all. The words of convicted felons have and deserve no more credibility than a work of theatrical fiction.

“I do not think criminals are much but they are human beings and we have no right to treat them other wise. unlike another ex crime you can beleave most of what Bernie writes.”

I do not trust anyone simply because the spin a good yarn or tell a sympathetic tale of how life has done them wrong.

I am treating both Bernie and your post with the healthy skepticism which all such scurrilous claims deserve and would ask anyone reading this thread to consider, what sort of “honest and ethical standards” did Bernie Matthews exercise to find himself on the inside of the many prisons which he seems to have been inmate of?

Ah Col old boy - the "reception biff" at Grafton was not only factual but also "notorious". While Bernie's evidence may not be good enough for you, what about the Australian Institute of Criminology?

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/lcj/wayward/ch2t.html

Sorry to break it to you, but gaols are known for fostering brutality in both prisoners and gaolers. That's just one reason why they don't work very well in reducing crime.

I suspect that spending time inside doesn't do all that much for accountants, either :)

Hi there Col R. ...

Again, I find myself in agreement with your latest thread. It's interesting that many folk who have an interest in penology, for one reason or other, find an article or statement that seems to fit their perception of what actually happens 'inside', and consequently seem latch on to it!

C.J. Morgan...

I don't believe anyone denies for a minute, that the dreadful physical assaults, that were perpetrated upon inmates at H.M.Gaol, Grafton, actually occurred. And occurring apparently, from the mid-forties right through 'til the seventies, when the KSSU was eventually opened. And it is correct too, that on arrival, the prisoner was subjected to, what has been described as, the 'reception biff'! These events were clearly established by the Nagle Royal Commission.

However C.J.Morgan, I can assure you that, this type of conduct and behaviour, WAS NOT REPEATED at the KSSU. Nor was any member of the staff, or the executive (internally or externally) engaged in any type or form of:- behaviour modification; sensory deprivation; or psychological manipulation.

And further, other than medication that would normally be prescribed by the appropriate Institutional Medical Officers, there was absolutely no 'chemical restraints' given to any prisoner, either voluntarily or mandatorily, during their time in the KSSU. Naturally, notwithstanding the above, some psychiatric preparations were administered to some inmates, as deemed necessary by the relevant Prison Medical Officer and/or Psychiatrist.

Accordingly, to any reader of this thread...you may ask or put any question/s (apropos the operation of Katingal), and I'll do my level best to answer them as truthfully and candidly as possible. Essentially, it's over to you folks, if your interested!

Though perhaps not as 'riveting' or intellectually engaging as a good substantial book. However, I'll do my best.

Kind regards...osungwu.

Thanks for the civil and generous response, o sung wu. I have little knowledge of Katingal, but I've known a couple of blokes who went through the 'reception biff' at Grafton so I felt I had to correct Col on that point. One of them was in there for draft-dodging during the Vietnam War, would you believe? I guess they decided to make an example of my pacifist mate...

While I have little firsthand knowledge of gaols, through my interactions wih former prisoners and training in the social sciences I have formed a view about the integral nature of penal institutions in Australian culture. I believe our society is quite unique in the way that prisons have been ingrained in the Australian psyche since the First Fleet.

One thing that's always fascinated me is why anybody would want to work as a 'screw' in a gaol. When I was a student many years ago I worked a few shifts as a 'youth worker' in a juvenile correctional facility, and I found the experience quite abhorrent, if interesting. Friends of mine go inside gaols regularly in their capacities as lawyers, psychologists, social workers etc, but what little they say socially about prisons is invariably slightly embarrassed and always negative.

If you don't mind me asking, o sung wu, why did you decide to become a prison officer? Did you volunteer for Katingal, or were you selected? And what made you leave to become a police officer?

In your posts that I've read in this forum, you come across as a decent chap with an admirably balanced perspective on his former profession - certainly not the stereotypical 'screw' or 'copper'. Which is why I'm asking, I guess :)

H there, C.J. Morgan...

Thank you for your thread, and valued comments therein. Why did I become a 'screw' ? Got out of the military after eight years, with active service in:- Malaya; Borneo; and another S. E. Asian location. Saw an ad. in a Sydney paper - passed a rather simple selection test (both academic and police check), and ended up at the State Penitentiary, Long Bay (March 1967).

CJM, it certainly was a culture shock marching through the front gates for the first time, and I don't mind admitting, that initially I was quite scared. As a 3rd class Prison Officer, I found the work was reasonably boring. Interestingly, I was recognised by my peers and former Army colleagues as being quite a 'tough' sort of fellow (physically). However, that meant absolutely 'nought' in gaol. Nor did the majesty of the uniform intimidate many inmates either!

I learnt very quickly indeed, CJM. It's the WAY you speak to prisoners - that is the most important and useful skill of all!! Being an aggressive, foul-mouthed, tough guy, won't get you anywhere. Other than a 'smack in the mouth' and a complete loss of respect...'AND FACE'.

I tried to use that particular skill over and over again in the police force...Why make a very difficulty job even harder ? Speaking to an individual civilly, is not a sign of weakness, it's a mark of maturity, in my view.

And why did I join the coppers...? I suppose I liked the security of being employed in a government service...I guess also, I'd seen 'inside the fence', so to speak, and often wondered what sort of activity actually got people custodial sentences in the first place. Without being further exposed to the nauseating spin of the print and electronic media. The flat $$ was reasonably good too, I've gotta say !!

In closing CJM, a long standing friend of mine, a 1/C Sergeant, often said...

"A Prison Officer has a job"...
"A Police Officer has a career"...

Emmmmmm, I don't know if I agree with that view altogether ?

Kind regards...osungwu.

Hi OSW - thanks for your candid response and apologies for not responding sooner. I've been off camping and fishing with the kids for a few days.

It seems to me that you're the kind of bloke that we need more of in our law enforcement system. With respect to prisons, it occurred to me that the current fad for privatising them might actually be a good thing because of the impossibility of changing the culture that exists in those run by public servants.

Would you agree? Cheers.

Hi there - C.J.Morgan...

It's an interesting proposition to have all penal institutions privatized. It could work. Though a company who seeks to make a profit from incarcerating human beings, does unsettle me a little.

I reckon, that if someone with the necessary 'smarts' were to introduce a definitive career path for prison officers, perhaps that may attract more of the 'right type' of individual, to the system.

Of course, there are many of these 'right types' already in the system. But there could be more.

Apropos the public servant/s involvement in the operation of the KSSU. Well I can tell you my friend, there was one particular PS who exercised considerable power in the running of Katingal, from day one. A so called erudite fellow, who managed to cause much trouble. In terms of totally undermining the Officers, and giving the inmates certain undertakings, that he could not deliver.

I must state herein C.J.Morgan. That particular person, that 'expert' Public Servant, did so much, or ommitted to do what was so obviously required, that he alone contributed so much negativity. To ensure that Katingal MUST fail! And fail it did.

I'm sorry, these 'little' issues rarely ever emerge. Suffice to say, that I have a personal loathing for this person, and people of his kind. Notwithstanding the above, there are many good public servants in the system. Sometimes their tasks aren't all that easy either. As some are required to have face to face interaction with belligerent inmates and their kin too.

Cheers...osungwu.

Hi o sung wu, thank you so much for writting to me, sorry I havent been in touch i have been on holidays, I have noticed so many replies to my post. Thank you to everyone. I am very interested in reading about the other side. I also know alot about what goes on in prisons and believe all of what Bernie has to say. I'd love to meet Bernie in person but I doubt that will happen. I would believe Bernie on the so called screws, I know what they are like. Human beings should not be treated that way, being locked away from the outside world and not being about to see family and friends is punishing enough. I know alot dont agree. But everyone has a story to tell. Thanks again evryone. Colleen

Hi there Colleen...

You say that you 'know a lot about the screws'. You also express a keen desire to meet Bernie. And that he (Bernie) apparently tells the whole awful truth about these screws, evidently?

As it would appear that you have a pretty good handle on what goes on in prisons, particularly the dreadful conduct and behaviour of these execrable, and odious 'screws' - that are regrettable employed therein. I guess there's very little I can add, Colleen.

I sincerely hope that you enjoyed you holiday too.

Cheers...osungwu