This week I've had a few major health issues.
At around 2.30am at the beginning of this week
I was rushed to the Emergency
Department of my nearest hospital due to a
pulse-rate that was like a train wreck. Anyway,
I won't go into any further details - and the
only reason I'm mentioning it now is - it made me
think about life and death et cetera.

I'd like to quote from a short paragraph that I
came across in an old book entitled, "Does It
Follow?: Material For Practice in Logical Thinking,"
written by Meyrick H. Carre, Lecturer in Philosophy,
University of Bristol...

" I believe in the survival of the mind-personality, or
soul, after death because I can see no means whereby such
a phenomenon can come to an end, nor any reason why
separation from the physical body should end it. The
only "ending" of things of which we have any knowledge
comes about by the dissolution of the parts. The
mind-personality has no parts, as is proved by the power
of the mind to form a common judgement on two different
ideas, a fact which would be impossible if each idea were
contained in a different compartment; therefore the
mind-personality lacks the quality essential to
disintegration, decay, and cessation of existence..."

I'd be interested to read your views on the topic.

Hi Foxy, I was sorry to read about your illness. Heart problems are perhaps considered to be the most frightening of all for most patients. I hope all is well now.

As both a nurse and a patient myself early this year, I have also considered this topic many times.

Being brought up by a strict Catholic mum and education, I was taught to believe in the everlasting soul.

When I became a nurse and witnessed many deaths over the years, I am now much more of a skeptic.

We studied the brain and nervous system, as well as witnessed brain surgery. You can pinpoint the actual areas of the brain responsible for all the functions and emotions of our bodies.

We know this because when part of the brain is wounded or destroyed, it affects that part of the body or emotions of the victim.

When a person dies in front of you, all you see is the body ceasing to work when the brain dies. To me, that is that!

Many people don't like the thought of death , and thus like to believe in an 'afterlife' or heaven of some sort.
I don't, but I always support patient's beliefs, if that is what gives them comfort when they are ill or dying.

At the end of the day though, we will never, ever really know will we?

Best wishes for good health Foxy. Hope you are sitting up in bed on your laptop and not racing around the house doing stuff. :)

Simple answer is I don't know. It would be nice to think that a part of us, maybe in the form of energy is released to parts unknown. The idea of heaven is a nice story but not much basis in fact.

My logical guess is much the same as Suze. We are born, we live, die and replenish the earth in the cycle of life.

Whatever gives us our soul, whether it be inbuilt physiological electrical processes or something other-wordly we are yet to know

Dear Suze,

Thanks so much for your kind words.

The incident scared the living daylights
out of me. And to make matters worse my husband
had to call 000 again for an ambulance a day later
when my blood pressure was through the roof.

It seems that I've got a lung infection. But with
enough medication to kill a horse - I'm getting
better. The only thing is I'm scared of sleeping -
especially at night. During the day - no problems,
but comes night - I have nightmares.

Anyway, enough said. I don't want to sound like I'm
looking for sympathy - because I'm not. It just drove
the point home to me - how fragile life really is.
But Suze, as a nurse - you'd be aware of that far more
than the rest of us. The hospital staff in Emergency,
as well as the ambulance staff - were totally professional,
caring, and quite wonderful.

I believe that there must be something else for us - it
can't just end with our body - can it?

Dear Pelly,

Thanks for your words of concern.
I'm so glad to be back and posting.

As I mentioned to Suze. I have to believe that there's
a reason for our existence - and therefore it can't
just suddenly end. Nobody seriously claims to live
a life entirely devoid of purpose; it's doubtful
whether such a life is possible. The only difficulty,
and it is a very real one, is to decide what that
purpose should be. Therefore how can it just end
with death? What's it all about then?

Dear Foxy,

So sorry that you've had an awful time. Hope you're well on the mend.

You might have noted in the past that I've stated my religious conviction (non-denominational Christian) which I hold for many reasons that don't include near death experiences or anything in the paranormal or extra-what-have-you range of phenomena.

I am a very pragmatic person who doesn't seek or enjoy any meddling with crystals, life forces, tea cups or any of that stuff.

Nevertheless I have had a couple of experiences that have heightened my spiritual awareness; none brought about by any seeking or health crises of any sort.

Suzie sorry lovey but I don't believe the physical trauma type/ disassociative explanations for NDE and the like. Some of the points raised in the following scientific studies include:

1. If there was a physiological explanation then we could expect a higher rate of occurrence under the same conditions eg: heart attack; hypoxia etc.

2. Induced experiences do not include some elements reported in spontaneous NDEs.

3. Some of the NDEs occurred when there was no recorded brain or other activity data indicating.

4. Blind people have reported NDEs including visual perception.

5. People experiencing NDEs have recognized people who were present during the time they were clinically deceased.

Lancet December 15, 2001; 358: 2039-45:

http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf

The Lancet, Volume 355, Issue 9202, Pages 460 - 463, 5 February 2001:

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673601071008/fulltext.

From an email: "We are not human beings going through a temporary spiritual experience, but spiritual beings going through a temporary human experience".

Dear Foxy

A high pulse and the fight for oxygen that goes with it is a frightening experience.

What can lessen your fear is the knowledge that the diving seal reflex can work for you to slow that heartbeat. When you feel the event coming on splash quantities of cold water over your face and see what a reduction that can make. Doing it regularly might even increase the effect - as happens with divers.

Also, try not to burn the candle at both ends - especially if you consume lots of coffee while you are ceaselessly striving (smile).

I struggle to take time for myself and smell the roses, despite my earnest attempts and resolutions. Time on a boat or in the bush can do it for me and gardening used to help.

Don't agonise over the end or what comes next, just set a course down the spirituality path by taking time out to sit and think, slow things down and indulge in a little introspection. Maybe that analytical side of your being is working overtime, I know the feeling. Just take things in without trying to process everything. I reckon autobiographies are a good feed for a soul in search of spiritual inspiration. Maybe some have suggestions, hopefully not of the ponderous variety.

Dear Foxy,
Sorry to hear that you have been unwell. Experiences like yours often lead to a heightened sense of spiritual awareness. I'm a bit like you. I find somehow that some things in life are so remarkable that it seems as if there is something else at work.
I hope this experience ultimately leaves something of value - it quite often turns out that way.
On Pynchme's end quote - have you read any of Deepak Chopra's writings?

Revisit the stages of life and what are the main concerns of each particular stage. Your concerns are perfectly normal and it could come as some relief that others may be similarly pre-occupied with questions of life's purpose and what next. For instance (a Googled example only):

http://www.manifestyourpotential.com/life/make_sense_of_life/life_stages/topic_eight_life_stages.htm

Because there are so many hot buttons on OLO, spirituality and the other issues you have raised are probably better discussed in a forum of the same approximate age group with a similar interest. Can't suggest any though and again, some others might be able to make a suggestion or few.

Foxy

Sorry to hear of your health issues. I just hope you along with all others dies in a state of forgiveness. We all need it and Christ has provided it.

At least you picked the right thing to have trouble with Fozy, we're good at cardiac in Oz. They have been able to fix me quick time, each time I have trouble.

I don't think fate could be so cruel, as to have our personality , at death survive. I'm damn sure my mother , now 98 would not want to survive for eternity, being unable to express herself satisfactorily, because she can't think of the words when she wants them.

Like a debater, she used to write out the words she expected to need, at, say, a doctors appointment, or a visit from a friend.

Now she gets even more exasperated. Her writing has got so bad she can't read it, even with her new glasses.

So, no Foxy. Unless it's inherited by the daisies, I'll take mine with me, thanks.

Hell, I just thought, I might have killed myself, in a racing car, in my 20s. Can you imagine anything worse for a young racing driver personality, than being trapped in heaven, playing a harp for eternity.

Get well soon kid.

Wise words indeed Cornflower, and I hope they are of some help to Foxy.
To add to that, I would suggest some short term course of sleeping pills until you are feeling stronger Foxy.

Pynchme, you raise some interesting points, however, in all the years I have been a nurse and witnessed umpteen resuscitations and deaths, I have never once been told about a 'near death experience' after they first 'woke up'.
Why would that be?

Could it be that they thought about how they were told they nearly died, and then later 'thought' they had seen the other side?
It would be a comforting thought to the frightened patients.

Why don't all people brought back from near death 'see' all these activities described by a few?
If a person is able to be resuscitated, they were not 'brain dead' at the start, but merely had no heart beat.

Blind people are known to dream in technicolour too.

When a persons heart stops, it doesn't mean they can't see or hear anymore. They lose these abilities only when their brain dies, so I am aware they often know what is going on around them when they are being resuscitated.

We still talk to people and let them know what we are doing to them, even when they are unconscious or in a coma.

I have been there and witnessed this many times.
Sorry 'lovey', there is no life after death.

Dear Foxy,

Heart and breathing trouble are very frightening things to deal with. You may not be wanting sympathy but I can offer empathy.

I have had the 'paddles' applied over 20 times in the last 6 years and although in some ways you do get use to it, (even when they miss slightly and you end up with a singed nipple – bloody painful for weeks after) it is always a very sobering experience.

There was one stand-out and particularly severe episode when I was pretty sure the ambulance was not going to make it in time. Not even being able to raise my head off the carpet I had some time to consider the what if's and I found myself quite at peace with the possibility it might have all ceased right then and there. My overwhelming concern was for my wife and children and when I was asked later by one of my more religious in-laws had I considered the here-after or the Almighty I was able to answer quite truthfully no.

Perhaps if the circumstances of my demise were to be drawn out to a greater degree the answer might be different.

However I will admit the priorities of this life have changed somewhat.

Cont

Cont

You ask “I believe that there must be something else for us – it can't just end with our body - can it?” and I would respond by asking why is it important for you to believe there must be something else?

If a belief in an afterlife assists people in their walk through the here-and-now then I'm happy to consider it worthwhile for them but I now know I'm pretty comfortable with the 'That's all folks' ending.

This is especially true when I consider 4/5ths of the world's population would not have had access to the medical care that I have been afforded just because I was lucky enough to be born in this country.

I often reflect that I am right now living a quite utopian life in relative terms to the bulk of humanity and in a way it is kind of selfish for me to want more.

So another question might be what prevents people from being comfortable with the notion that a full and complete life might happily be the sum of it while a life cut short or lived in constant distress might be a tragedy.

Indeed I would argue most humans instinctively realise this because a firm belief in an utopian afterlife must surely neuter the very notion of tragedy.

And as it would be an absolute tragedy to have you unable to contribute to OLO could I invite you to concentrate on a speedy recovery.

Foxy Foxy you have me worried, for those who do not know Foxy has been unwell for a while.
And told us quite a long time ago, she got battered by another poster who herself is sick, for trawling for sympathy.
Foxy you are OLO in my view the very best of it.
Knowing your family is reading ,being truly concerned for them too you all have my hopes with you.
We have had a thread like this, maybe even before Foxy came here, it was an interesting one.
Can anyone remember its name?
This firm non believer knows, some thing exists after death.
It may be that our brain dies after the body, or that it lets us dream of an after life as we die.
But I think not, be brave be honest folks, have you felt a dead persons presents?
I have, maybe my mind did it?
Then why/
My thoughts did not in any way include them as it took place.
Get well Foxy.

Foxy,
Ever heard Eric Clapton's Tears in Heaven, which he wrote in memory his son Conor who died very young? Musicians and poets are able to express the very complex in ways that help us to work through our own feelings too.

Much of our fear of our own mortality comes from understandable concern about the welfare of those we must leave behind and our memories, feelings of loss of those who have gone before - holes that can never be filled. Anyhow, here is Clapton:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AscPOozwYA8

There are times when all we can do is play some familiar music, look through photos, read poetry and have a good weep. If we also weep for the loss of our youth so be it, that is perfectly understandable especially where we may not always have had the opportunity, through life's circumstances at the time, to enjoy and savour a happy childhood and youth.

Must have been the week for it Foxy. I spent last Saturday to Tuesday staring at dodgy over priced tele too. lol Glad you're doing alright, and glad I am too.

By default I believed in the after life coz I was labelled a Christian as a kid, she's a hard one to get your head around though. Took me awhile accept this as a concept and acknowledge, "Yeah, I'll take this one on board too..." after much head space turmoil.

It's funny, I remember asking my old man about this very topic and at the time my cat had just died; I was young. I mean, if we've got souls and an 'ever after' shouldn't my cat?. IF that's the case though, wouldn't heaven be FULL TO OVER FLOWING with all the people and animals that meant something to me all through my life?. Really, if I enjoyed your company - for example - so much in this existence couldn't I have some version of you to meet up with for a cuppa and scones every morning for a yap?. Still trying to get my head around that. lol

ANYWHO, my acceptance of an 'ever after' - sounds a little Drew Barrymore - came with various run ins with things I couldn't explain either first hand or through people I trust.

One example: I lived in a two story house with one female. It had a wooden floor upstairs. If you were down stairs, on occasion, with an empty house, you could DEFINITELY hear a man in work boots walking through up stairs. This happened one day and I went up and here was my cat - open back door - curled up under the couch having pissed herself. THREE of us ALL heard this bloke walking up the front stairs to the front door one night. No one knocked...

Don't expect to be believed, and I don't care if anyone does, but moments like that and MANY others gave me an acceptance of "something more".

Wishing you a speedy recovery Foxy.

I don’t believe in the survival of anything after death. We are just one of 4.2 million biological species on this planet, not to mention other planets. We all go the same way, ashes to ashes.

That’s not to say that the threat of personal extinction does not cause some profound moments.

I’m reminded of the story of W.C Fields, a lifelong agnostic, caught reading the bible by relatives during his final days. When asked why? He responded, “just looking for loopholes, just looking for loopholes”.

Stay well and enjoy your afterlife

I'll just add my good wishes, Foxy. Nil desperandum.

On the subject of a soul/afterlife, I'm with Suzie, though. I've had a couple of close calls myself and it's natural to think "what if". Having thought a lot on it, once we eliminate the ego-driven wishful thinking, we come to the question "how". How would this persistence of one's soul be managed? What is the mechanism and what is the motivating principle for such a thing to evolve? Would the absence of such a mechanism mean that the rest of what we observe is somehow less explicable? I have to say that it would not, thus Occam's Razor applies.

OTOH, if one has a "good soul", it lives on in those they know. We "feel their presence" and we choose to act in ways that they might regard with approval. We follow their example and we remember their deeds and thoughts. What more can anyone hope for?

I think it was Dawkins who pointed out that we are the bodies which
dna uses, to pass itself on from one generation to the next.

So you'll live on Foxy, in the body of your kids. etc.

Your purpose has been to have them and rear them, along with
anything else that you want to make your life's purpose.

Get well soon and enjoy every day.

We leave much of ourselves behind in our children or in memories, the impact we may have had on another's life.

There are certainly things we cannot explain and that we don't yet know. Maybe we never will.

Foxy you asked What's the point? It's a valid and good question. I wonder if there has to be a point. Maybe it is what we do with our lives that is the point of our existence - what we contribute or add to the life of those around us.

It doesn't feel like it is enough. Personally I hope that there is something else after death. It would seem to make sense of this energy that gives us our soul, whether it be reincarnation or another 'worldly' place. There are documented cases where people believe strongly and find 'evidence' of past life through their intricate knowledge of an event, place or person.

Anything at all is possible.

During one time in my life I actually prayed (yes it was desperation) - one of those 'God I don't know if you are there..." type openings.

Oddly enough change did occur soon after but the change was already in motion prior to the prayer so I never really knew if the prayer just provided a positive state, or if something actually happened due purely to prayer. As an atheist I tend to think it was coincidence. Others might explain it in terms of noetic powers (such as was described in Dan Brown's latest book). I also thought why would a 'God' help me - an Atheist.

Humans have always placed a high value on spirituality whether it be of the more earthly kind - Shinto, Bhuddism, Taoism, pagan or more single deity centred like Christianity, Islam, or Hindu.

It is natural to think about death when you are facing a medical crisis. We are all different and yet the same in many ways, that is what makes us human.

I had a pulse rate of 32 and blood pressure of 60, After they give me a pill i was allergic to. Just as well i was in emergency.
I felt parallized, but there was nothing wrong with my hearing. All the male nurse was interested in was saying. Isn't he a shocking colour.
It took a shot of adrenalin to bring me back.
The result of that excursion was a stent implant, two days later.

I am simply overwhelmed.

Thanks EVERYONE for your kind words, your
advice, and your very moving responses
to my questions - which have given me
quite a lot to think about. I apologise
that I'm not addressing each of you individually,
but the 350 word limit restricts what I would
say to each and everyone. All I can say is I
appreciate all of your posts - and they have
helped me a great deal. If I only could - I
would hug all of you. But, I'm doing it in my
mind - and in my heart.

I should explain that I was raised as a
Catholic (my father was raised by Jesuits).
And even though I'm probably not a very good
Catholic - the old roots still have their
influence in that I find comfort in certain
Church rituals. I'm not sure what that says
about me. Perhaps that's why an "after-life"
is important to me.

I believe in a life that
lingers after this - but I'm not sure in what
form - and I've got to confess
that I don't fear hell because I can't fathom it,
and I don't seek heaven because it offers no image
that I can grasp. So it's all a bit of a conundrum.
Deep down, I wouldn't be too upset - if this life
was all we have. I've been very lucky this far
with what I've been dealt. And if my time was to come
up - my wish would be not to survive a stroke - and
live in a vegetative state or be a burden on my family.

There are many things that exist that we can't explain -
there have been occurrences in my family's life that
offered no logical explanation - so who knows what's
ahead for any of us?

If I'm babbling here bear with me - but the tablets I'm
on are having a large effect - especially something
called "Amiodarone," the side effects are awful.

Maybe the thread did not take the direction you thought it would.
But Foxy you are the person responsible for that, our first reaction is concern for you.
That other thread a long time ago took different directions.
We yes me too, told of things we could not explain, some jumped on me using those posts as evidence I must believe in God.
I spoke of my fathers death, a shock, unexpected and instant.
How I still believe I felt his personality travel with me on the long drive to tell his other sons.
Or dreaming my best mate and cousin hugged me and laughed on the night he died.
A 90 year old in this village still tells a tale about his brother killed in ww11 standing at the kitchen table on his death day as clearly as he told others on that day.
Cynics will say I have lost it, maybe I have, I do not think so.

Dear Belly,

Thank You for your continued support,
and concern. You've certainly not lost
it. You never could my dear friend.

Our family has had several unexplainable
experiences in the past. I wish I could remember
that thread you mentioned earlier.

I can't remember
if I ever mentioned it on OLO - but our
previous home was haunted - it wasn't a
threatening presence - and we were never
frightened - but it scared one of our
babysitters who ended up calling his father
to come and replace him until we got home.

The young bloke kept seeing this shadow appear
and disappear at the end of our hallway - and he
finally called his dad.

There's other people who've had things happen
that can't be explained logically. What about
Psychics, clairvoyants, and cases of people
who claim they've lived a previous life and
can describe it in great detail?

I believe there's an afterlife -simply because I
can't find a reason not to.

But I'm interested to continue to hear other's views.

By the way, I've asked for the Richard Dawkins book,
"The God Delusion," as an Easter pressie - instead
of chocolate from the family (they did ask what I wanted),
just to balance things out a bit. I might just get it
as my husband was impressed by what he saw of Dawkins on
TV. I'm curious what he has to say about things.

Foxy, I too want to read "The God Delusion", although I must admit to being disappointed with Mr. Dawkins when I saw him on TV not long ago.

While I agreed with many of his points, I found him to be obnoxious and self important at times.

While I don't believe in an afterlife as such, one can never be really sure what's ahead.
I have thought often about reincarnation as a possible place for any 'souls' to go on after a body dies.

Does anyone else have any ideas on that subject?
Many millions of people in our world believe in reincarnation.
It is at least as plausible as a heaven or hell isn't it?

Hey Foxy, long time no speak. Just want to wish you well; and a long,long,long and happy future for you.
And Belly, looking forward to seeing you pay up on our bet squire.

Religion is a hot button on OLO and it is best not to provoke another very tedious diatribe from either side.

Reducing things down to basics, I have seen enough of life and of people completing their life's cycle to arrive at the conclusion that spiritual belief is far from harmful and can make life far more social, more tolerable and it can assist survival.

Dear Foxy,

My nickname for amiodarone was 'O I am a drone' because one does go on a bit when dosed up but in a fairly unanimated fashion.

Please take care with it because it can be a nasty one. It gave my thyroid and the liver of my brother's father-in-law a bit of a hiding. I would be asking some questions if you were to be on it for an extended period. There are some other quite effective rhythm control drugs out there for that scenario if required and I'm sure you are in good hands.

Dear suzeonline,

I actually find Richard Dawkins pretty mild, especially when compared to his former compatriot Christopher Hitchins. The sense of pomposity one sometimes gets from him may well be chiefly a product of his accent rather than a superior attitude.

You might find the interview he did with John Safran and Father Bob enjoyable.

http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/triplej/safran/safran_2010_03_14.mp3

On the topic of souls is there any objection to our dearly departed family pet being blessed with the same? Our memories of her are still very strong and even nearly two years on the latest hound still occasionally gets called her name.

And if so what about an inanimate object like a place? Uluru, Port Arthur, Kakadu?

Or is it that our pets and significant places are special only because they are daubed by the souls of humans?

Welcome back palimsest, can not wait to gloat.
cornflower hot threads are good threads surely.
Freedom of speech's still of value and yes I think even if we fail to talk about some issues we should not isolate others.
Foxy country born in past days we even as children lived by kero lights and no electricity.
I do not think it is any different than modern living, we told of such things and do still.
Reincarnation? who can say no.
We would do well to truly remember every religion, all of them, has differing beliefs.
NDE often sees Christians no longer believe after one.
I can not ever change my view that we have no God known to man.
But ghosts in some form exist.
Can some one find that thread?
Foxy told us of her illness, in another thread full of love and concern from OLO.
She may not like me re hashing it, but she took a verbal flogging for telling her story, from one poster only.
Find that thread if you want more but our Foxy needs support we, all of us, are a family and I know we share that wish.

its sad and funny/science KNOWS energy cant be created/..NOR destroyed..clearly what science observes is limited by its peers..having godless peers like dorkins..its a matter of garbage in/garbadge out..

to talk of a soul..is to confuse the spirit/with the soul,,to confuse electricty/driving a computer..with the mind typing in the words...see your energy/spirit/that thinks its foxey/soul/body...the soul is the afterlife,,'body' for your spirit..

you claim beliefs from cathaholics..ok se that jesus dispelled the soul/spirit...awaiting a endtime judgment day,,he asured even a thief/on the cross beside him/he too would be in heaven/this day..its so simple even a child can grasp that..energy cant becreated/destroyed....thus goes to heaven.../life after life

but..we are having the blind/lead the blind..the church is as much about this fleshy materisalism,,as any athiest/god head,,jesus came to dispel the lie of judgment day..

in the after life its a huge problem,..many spend their afterlife stubornly 'sleeping away'..their eternity..[you know how fixed fools can be in their beliefs/and fears/.

GOD DONT JUDGE NO-one..indeed as jesus reveals/more of the same shall be given...but each in their own 'room'..''mine fathers house has many rooms..[yes even haters /athiests/the godless...HAVE each their own 'rooms'..

WE CANT CONCIEVE GODS GRACE AND MERCY..,even jesus/love..was flawed with human doudt..at times...

even now you still fear gods love..think..that read..that energy..we al know as you can be destroyed..WHY SHOULD YOU BE THE ONE EXCEPTION..your not ignorant...only decieved..

my favourites list
revealing the vision behind the s/words

http://www.angelfire.com/ne/newviews/heavenearth.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ne/newviews/life.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ne/newviews/facts.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ne/newviews/morelife.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ne/newviews/hereafter.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ne/newviews/morelight.html
http://swedenborg.newearth.org/hh/hh00toc.html
http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/index.php

just recall those docters/and their drugs/to relieve angziaty...one puff of a joint has the same affect as the over subsidised stroke medication..[to the tune of over 1 billion each year]..

adverse reaction/..TO PERSCRIBED drugs..kills in usa. alone the equivelent of 5 jumbo jets crashing...EACH DAY..the best meds is trust gods love...and dont panic...all in gods time...not mans..

have no fear dear..you are beloved here/and there...

anxziaty wont help...the adverse reactions../see my..dose needed to cure post..[60 people need to take 'drugs..to get one cure'..]..think happy thoughts...fear no evil/fear no deciever/

darn read
..can't be destroyed..
not can...the t didnt type

trust the basic science
not fools with adgenda's/guilt/ignorance..
in the matters of enegry/spirit

or seeking ..physical/finantial/ego's.. advantage's..

believe if you have it

disbelieve if their truth causes you fear etc
in the end its your energy..gifted to you from god/the natural behind nature

nurture not nature
/what is natural selection but gods choices

Belly, "cornflower hot threads are good threads surely."

It was 'hot buttons' not 'hot threads' and it would be good to encourage some new opinion to surface.

Thanks everyone for your continued
concern and good wishes.

Dear Suze,

I recently came across a website on reincarnation
which told the story of a young Indian girl who
while driving with her parents past some village -
told them to stop at a house where they could get
much better refreshments than in the restaurant
down the road. She described the house in great
detail even though this child had never been to that
part of the country according to her parents.

She also described the family who lived there, including
the nicknames of each family member. It turns out that
family had lost their mother 20 years ago - and this child
was claiming to be her. She was able to describe everything
from her past life. Imagine the effect this would have
on her husband - meeting a child claiming to be
his former wife - and able to supply intimate details to
prove it. Strange hey?

Dear Palimpsest,

Welcome back! And Thank You for all your kind words.

Dear csteele,

I've now stopped taking Amiodarone - and hopefully this will
help me return to normal sooner. The nausea was dreadful -
as well as the lethargy. Not good. I was so relieved to read
that it wasn't just me having problems with this drug. Thanks
for your information. I'll be seeing my doctor tomorrow
and I'll definitely ask about it.

Dear Cornflower,

Your advice has been so helpful to me - I can't Thank You
enough. I will be taking more time off to "smell the roses,"
and relax. I don't ever want another episode like the one
I've had.

Dear Belly,

What more can I say - except that
you're a very special man - and I'm grateful to count
you as a friend.

Dear One Under God,

Thank You for all your inputs.
They are deeply appreciated.
By the way, did you know that I
now have a grandson (first one)
named Johann Vincent?

Hi Foxy,

Hang in there kiddo. It sounds as though you are getting excellent treatment so I am sure things will turn out OK.

With regard to souls and reincarnation, I am afraid I am a sceptic. I like to have concrete evidence of such. There are many so called paranormal episodes that some people experience, and as we discover more about how the mind works, then I am sure we will open the door to many things we don't now understand. So I ask myself the question "where do all these extra souls come from as our population increases. Are they brand new ones ? Where did the original ones come from?" if there are such things.

There are many phenomena that seem a mystery, so we attach something supernatural to it. Just watch David Copperfield and his "magic" We are amazed, but we know it is an illusion but when these are explained and revealed there is no mystery at all. I'm sure if there were any lost tribes in the world and you tried to explain television to them or any similar modern marvel, they would treat you like a god, but this is only because they don't understand the science.

Hi Foxy,

I wont give you any further attention or sympathy. Sorry, not my thing.

I am sorry if you are lonely. But I advise you to go out and make some new friends.

pelican,

'What's the point? It's a valid and good question. '
No it isn't! The whole concept is bizarre. I have no higher calling, purpose or 8 cough cough Bu11shit! stages in my life like cornflowers link.

Life is about doing what's entertaining an what you enjoy, and working as little as possible. 'Purpose', 'calling', they're all guilt inducers put there by people who want you to do stuff for them.

Do stuff for yourself! That also includes doing stuff for people because you like seeing them happy, but it's still all for you!

That's not saying I'm not spiritual. I like wondering off into the wilderness on my own for weeks sometimes, as my compamy is frankly better than most people I know. But this ego driven need people seem to have to 'make a difference' or be remembered or cling on to some semblance of immortality is frankly creepy.

Enjoy the sun on your back, sex, drugs, food, the good stuff in life that you can afford, do more and think less about things that cant lead to any conclusion or solution. Live in the moment or you're wasting a chance to enjoy life.

Don't be scared of death. You wont even know you don't exist any more or that your relatives are snooping through your private stuff.

Dear Foxy

Sorry to hear about your heart problems - went through similar not so long ago and understand your anxiety.

My pragmatic side tells me that the atoms of which I consist will continue; recycled into earth and thence into other living creatures.

However, what I deem as my spiritual side cannot deny a number of events I experienced that do not have a simple scientific explanation; such as living in a haunted house. One when pre-adolescent and two occasions when house sitting. The 'out-of-body' experience I had at the time of my father's death; didn't know he had even been ill till day after he'd died, all very sudden.

However, just because there are things I don't understand doesn't mean that I will fill my gap in knowledge with Christianity, Islam or any other formal religious doctrine. My lack of explanation simply increases my wonderment at this precious little planet, the cosmos, the fact that I exist at all and am writing to you now.

One thing I do know is that love is the one thing that is always there (love is a magic pudding?). I find I always have love for people like your self, Foxy; my family, my friends. Interesting that the converse, 'hate' is transitory; takes too much energy to continue to hate those who have either wished me ill or deliberately acted to hurt; can't say I love them, but I do pity those who behave with malice or even disrespect towards others, what does hate gain anyone?

I have been thinking about this a great deal since reading the lengths people will go to just to paint others as lacking, for example, Peter Selleck's rant against atheism. The description of Richard Dawkins as militant, Runner's regular vitriol. What is the point? We all will die, we can leave this mortal coil with feelings of love towards those we leave behind or we can die hating people who have never done any harm to us greater than holding different opinions.

Severin
As usual you put things very well. :)

Houlley

I get what you are about but it is not possible to live in a completely hedonistic state all the time (not that you were implying that).

Reality dictates we still have to work to feed and clothe ourselves and to fulfill basic and some not so basic needs, which occasionally means conforming to someone else's rules. Juggling those needs and realities is the tricky part.

IMO happiness is best achieved when we follow our hearts, rather than being a slave to social pressures or norms. As an adult, there is amazing freedom in not being shackled to imaginary social pressures and empty concepts such as status and wealth which are meaningless from a spiritual point of view.

Houellebecq,

Have you read anything by Tom Hodgkinson? I think you might enjoy his books "How To Be Idle" and "How To Be Free".

Dear snake,

Thanks - I am feeling more confident with each day.
The drugs messed me around somewhat - but as you
said - I'm in good hands.

Dear Houellebecq,

I wasn't looking for either attention or sympathy
with this thread - merely a sharing of a rather
frightening experience and a discussion of life
after-death as a subject. I was interested in the
views of others with similar expereinces as well
as people's thoughts on re-incarnation, the soul
surviving after death et cetera. As I stated
earlier I've been overwhelmed by the response - and
people's thoughts on the subject, as well as their
experiences of similar situations to mine.

Thank You for your advice - I tend to do a bit too
much for my family at times - and I will need to
try to tone things down a bit - and have some "me"
time every now and again. I may even go visit that
brother of mine in Byron Bay, walk on the beach,
and just chill. Good for the soul.

Dear Severin,

I hope that all your health problems have now
been resolved and that you're going from
strength to strength. I'm so happy that you're
back and posting once again because you've been
so sorely missed.

I wish that I could express myself as beautifully
as you do. My wish is also that
we may hope and trust that humanity's
ultimate choice will be to enhance the life on the
bright and lovely planet on which billions of us
share our adventure.

Foxy, Pelican

Too kind, blush.

I wish I could write like Jeanette Winterson - thoroughly enjoying "The Stone Gods" it was the only book by her that my local library had, will definitely follow up on her other books.

Foxy, I understand about the medication it can really screw you around. Retreating into some good quality fiction is a great way to get out of yourself for while.

Had an interesting dream a straight after my old male moggie went to cat heaven a few years ago. I was lying in bed, dreaming I was awake, there a man standing with his back to me, looking out the window, he was saying he was sorry, but it was time for him to go... moonlight silvered his hair, his silhouette long limbed, tall, rangy. My cat was a very large silver tabby. Coincidence and fanciful thinking on my part. Dreams are just to heal aren't they?

pelican,

'Juggling those needs and realities is the tricky part.'

Yes, but I see most people erring on the side of fear (caution). Trying to justify themselves in this pursuit (or retreat rather), as in a career or a legacy, or a purpose or any such confabulation is just that. A narcissistic denial of the fact that your importance in the grand scheme of things equates to very little. Most people's lives are ruled by happen-stance not purpose, but they want to pretend otherwise, often retrospectively.

People too easily surrender their freedom, which is fine, but then they complain they are slaves. Or worse, as I say, put some 'altruistic' self serving justification that their succumbing to this fear is really some noble life purpose.

Some have more choices and opportunities than others, but this idea of 'purpose' is rubbish. It's an excuse to conform to what others want. Life doesn't have a point to it, and I cant identify with those who are scared to even consider this reality.

It's almost like it's somehow incredibly shameful to admit the totality of one's whole life's goal is to enjoy yourself. Some foreign and ubiquitous 'work ethic' seems to override the honest, base meaning of life for so many.

History is full of the slant that the decadent, hedonistic society should always get it's comeuppance for daring to be so darned cheeky.

Poirot,

No I haven't. I'll look him up, maybe he could learn a thing or two from me.

Foxy,
I just learned of your escapade at the local ER .
I must admit to being a little disappointed...I leave you in charge of OLOs conscience and sense of humanity and equity and what do you do?

You start a flirtation with a young, innocent, good looking potentially rich Doctor. I'll bet...Then two bites at the forbidden fruit no less! You ...you...Cougar you!

In the case that you were really ill then I have to say....I JUST WON'T Allow it NEVER never again, Sickness Verboten Not permitted DO YOU UNDERSTAND? Not even a sniff!! Absolutely NO Sickening off Do we understand Each other Hmmmm !?

Well? .....You did say no sympathy?

Besides We'd worry about you . Get well and *stay* well.

As for the topic ....No! :-)

Foxy,
I take lessons from the ant and my native bees our importance is in our existence. I don't believe in that the point of life is not our soul in the future but what we do now and how will we leave a better legacy for others. As the poem goes

"No man is an Island, entire of itself;
every man is a piece of the Continent,
a part of the main"

To assert a unique soul asserts the hubris of separateness (superiority) and therefore justification for indifference to others and selfishness.
I accept we are imperfect but it is only through trying that our lives become worthwhile.

Dear Houellie,

I prefer this take on things:

"For almost every worldy source of happiness
there is a fear-based reason to worry.
We may have incredible children, for instance,
but a day doesn't go by that we're not concerned
about their welfare for one reason or another.
The very fact that we love our children so much,
juxtaposed with all the dangers in the world,
is enough to keep parents anxious. We may have
a great career, but the pressures are intense.
We may have wonderful relationships, but people
are still people. We may have a lovely home but
there are big responsibilities to that one too.

Children are happy because they don't yet have
a file in their minds called, "All the Things That
Could Go Wrong." They don't have a mind-set that
puts "Things to Fear" before "Things to Love."
Children are happy because they don't have all the
facts yet.

Facts are what we must completely let go of if we
want to be happy. We must DECIDE to fly above the
turmoil if we really want to fly above it.

We must ignore maturely, not immaturely, a whole
realm of so called meaning. As long as our self-
identification centers around what we call the REAL
world, no profound happiness is possible.

Happiness requires that we give up wordly orientation -
not wordly THINGS but a wordly attachment to things.

We have to surrender all outcomes. We have to live
here but appreciate the joke..."
(taken from - Marianne Willliamson's, "Illuminata.")

So, Houellie, what Marianne Williamson is saying -
Just as children play games in which they pretend to be adults,
and thus pave the way for adulthood, so you and I must
pretend to be noble, enlightened spirits just visiting
here, in order to actually become them.

Dear Severin,

Who knows what can happen?
I feel that anything is possible.
I'd like to cite from the book
I gave in my opening post by Prof.
Carre:

"Another apparently simple fact for us is
"time." You would say, wouldn't you, that
time goes on and that it doesn't go back?
Yesterday is yesterday - today is today,
and never the twain shall meet. But what if
they do meet?

In 1901 two ladies who had both been Principals of
St. Hugh's College, Oxford, were walking in the
grounds of the Trianon in Paris. They met and were
addressed by people wearing the constumes of 1789.
They saw woods and a bridge which are no longer there
and subsequent research gave reason to suppose that
one of the people whom they met was Marie Antoinette
herself..."

Strange isn't it? but we can't dismiss it as absurd.
It's just one example of extraordinary happenings
that can't be explained. And it's experiences like
these that have persuaded people to consider the
existence of a spiritual world alongside or perhaps
inside the "matter of fact" one.

Dear Examinator,

Thank You for making me smile - but I'm not a cougar ;-)
I actually prefer older men, not with money - that
doesn't matter to me at all - because I'm self-
supporting, but with character - and a sense of humour!

I respect your opinion on the topic - but I still feel
there's a heck of a lot that can't be explained in this
world of ours.

'Just as children play games in which they pretend to be adults,
and thus pave the way for adulthood, so you and I must
pretend to be noble, enlightened spirits just visiting
here, in order to actually become them.'

Or we could pretend to be a child, and just be happy. Even just be.
You can have noble and enlightened to yourself, I've no need for such grandiose posturing.

snake quote..<<''where do all these extra souls come from as our population increases.''>>...think of life spirits evolving..[ie a spirit must evolve through the different lives...till it reaches the highest incarnation[mankind]..from here we evolve higher/but not encased/sewn into skins

to simplify...see your/mine previous incarnations..could be lower human..or higher beasts..[often we see humans acting like the beast..of their previous incarnation/reverting to their base nature

many achiving the human incarnation revert back to the beast..or again into human form...we are each presented a life previeuw..there are those who seek certain lessons..who chose the seemingly bad that will occure in their next life

like a truelly vile person might incarnate/seking to balance their vile..by becoming a victim/this time..but there are so many reasons we chose this life/incarnation

<<Are they brand new ones..?>>not all/[in fact not any is..'new'...see that this human form is unique[only 9 in the universe/according to swedenberg/noting this one is the only one that has the ability to make words/read etc[a gift we share with angels]

<<Where did the original ones come from?>>collectivly all come from the wholy spirit/think of god as the sum total of the world/wide/web..we as individual computers...part of/made to function/..because we each are a single cell/in the web

we are intimatly connected to the life force/..via the silver cord in our belly/button/influx..the life force flows and exit's via our crown/head and the negative earths via our feet/we literally are betwixt heaven/light/love/life...and hell/darkness hate/vile etc..

we are each allowed to chose between joinder to heaven/or hell/and the many realms in between...in time we all spiritually evolve into suns/..radiating gods light into our own sphere..have our own let there be light moment..becomming the master of our own solar system..or reincarnating yet again into the lessor incarnations

Foxy,
Foxy
You are self supporting, I'm older, poor and have a sense of humour....Hmmmm. :-)

Joke girl!

I agree that there are several things we don't know and are unlikely as a species ever likely too. However, I think it's the height of human arrogance or ignorance to assert that we as individuals, have a purpose separate from humankind. Especially given we can't exist/reproduce or as a an individual.

At the very basis we need a father and a mother, then one or both to survive untill we can learn to survive. Even if we do that, we need others to survive etc. Then we need another genetic stock to breed with.

We are a social animal and the purpose of being social is mutual survival. 7 billion people don't survive as individuals they Need others.

It seems to me that in the most basic terms our purpose for life is in those 'communities'/societies. Instead of creating reasons to live exist do the correct thing it's there the whole time.
Hence we are of Humanity and should try to live that way.

That doesn't imply we are castes like bees. But without the collective we have no intrinsic meaning. Sadly some tend to create hierarchical groups based on human created pseudo meaning..

Foxy may you have peace and confidence in the Creator who has given you this life.

The real person is the character that defines you as a person. Your physical presence in history has all been recorded in light years in the universe that is visible for ever, it is a shadow of your existence if we only had a time machine that could view the past light years.

However one's DNA is passed on to children, but that does not define the real person, as two children of the same parents can be totally different in attitudes, actions, personality, and character. However your own DNA will not survive into eternity, it is part of the decaying chemistry of the earth.

What will survive is not chemical it is spiritual, it is the spirit that displays the pure character we all would admire. That spirit is God! Any person who fails to recognise, admire and desire the true character of God is lost from any future heavenly exhaltation, and for them it is spiritual darkness.

Dear Hoellebecq,

To each his own. To one - it's
grandiose postering - to another
it's giving up wordly
orientation. Because in order to
be happy, we must become bigger than
the wordly self. But I realize
that it's a phenomenal challenge to
do that, because the world does not
support this kind of expansion.

Dear One under God,

I love reading your posts.
It's taken me a while to get used to your
style - but I enjoy them very much.

Dear Examinator,

I appreciate what your saying and respect
your opinion. As I've said previously -
you are a challenge.

Dear Philo,

I appreciate your positivity. And your
heartfelt words.

As I've written in the past - spirituality
is an inner fire, a mystical sustenance that
feeds our souls. The mystical journey drives
us into ourselves, to a sacred flame at our
center.

*Some have more choices and opportunities than others, but this idea of 'purpose' is rubbish. It's an excuse to conform to what others want.*

Actually not so Houllie, for your purpose can be what you decide it
to be, no matter what others want or think. Work can even be
play, if you are doing what you are passionate about and people pay
you for it.

Look around you, those who have found what they think is their
purpose, are often happiest. The bloke who plugs away at his project,
or book, or stamp collection or whatever gives him joy to get up in
the morning. Yup some feel joy (its all brain chemistry) by helping
others, but purpose can be whatever floats your boat.

I get a huge buzz from what I do on the land for instance. Just
last night I was watching the lambs in the feedlot area, they were
playing games, full of energy and were jumping over the water trough
as they chased each other. It was the cutest thing to watch!

Now those lambs will one day land up as lamb chops, but that simply
does not matter. What matters is the animals in my care are happy
and clearly enjoying their lives!

That matters to me personally, but what others think of that, frankly
I really don't care lol.

So I think your interpretation of purpose is kind of limited.

Maybe this is a strange post.
But I truly think it is needed, not to rehash some behavior I saw as un called for.
But to explain to some the nature of Foxys illness.
Foxy you not unlike me, use th site to learn and share.
In no way ever do I wish to offend.
But in reading the thread I searched for this morning we all can learn.
Stay with us my Friend.
The thread in which Foxy told us th nature f her illness a posted on 1/3/2008
Its title
Good by farair well auf wiederwsen so long.
Take the time to read and understand , and can some one with more time find that thread bout post death life, ghosts,it was long and interesting, if I knew who posed it?
must rush

Hi Foxy,
I too hope the health scare you had was just a glitch, and many years of this life remain (a blessing or a curse?).
I don't "believe" in anything, per se, because belief closes the mind. But I don't think we begin to understand consciousness. True we are just one of millions of species on the planet, but we're also unique in terms of that property of mind. I suspect there's something besides this life, rather than nothing, though what that is I have no idea; nor do I think I'll ever have any idea, so I'm not concerned.
What we have here, in my view, is a you-beaut rip-roaring mystery!
How can we draw any conclusions from what we (think) know, when what we don't know is possibly an order of magnitude greater?
I think it's great that our lives are genuinely mysterious (whether we acknowledge it or not). Life would be bleak indeed if it were existentially transparent. But it's not!

Some of us have had out of body dying experiences. When I was 12 years old I had a severe bout of measels and was roasting with high fever. I can remember my whole body felt compressed by a pins and needles sensation and I was screaming at my mother who was washing my head in ice water, "turn of the lights". It was the middle of the day and she kept reassuring me the lights were not on, but I insisted they were. I began fighting the ceiling as I looked down on my sweaty body lying in the bed, where I saw my mother crying and still bathing my head with ice packs. I then fell into a deep sleep to awake and find I was lying in a soaked bed

Yabby I think we are talking at cross purposes.

Purposely?

I think that life was never meant to be a life without an 'Ent'. And so, in death I make a plea, place my ashes inside a tree.

One of my favourite bumper stickers:

" Reincarnation
is making a
comeback."

One of my favourites:
Jesus is watching; everybody look busy!

Dear Foxy,
I came across this thread only now, so I’d also like to join the long queue of your well-wishers.

>>Do you believe in the survival of the mind-personality, or soul, after death?<<
I do not know whether these are your, or the administraitor’s, words, but as it stands I see you received many answers (implicit in the well-wishes) more or less to the negative.

You mention you were “raised as a Catholic” and also that you are going to read Dawkins’ book when Christians celebrate what they call the Resurrection. These stand for two very different approaches and answers to the above question, and nobody but you can decide which one is your answer.

Of course, one can sit on the fence, but for all of us the day will come when death becomes not just a scare - that you have now thankfully behind you - but an inevitable reality. Some people raised as Christians at that moment decide for the “Book of books” some, figuratively speaking, for the Dawkins’ book. On the deathbed some of us will stick to HOPE, because we will not be able to imagine that our lives were without what Christians call “higher purpose”, and some will be satisfed with the Saganist “this all there was” or still keep on looking for (and/or rejecting) what they call EVIDENCE.

Judging from your OLO contributions, I think you will choose Hope. The hope that in Resurrection sees a promise also of a personal resurrection into knowing what was the purpose of your human existence (not “afterlife” since without time there is no “after”). However, as I say, only you will know, and decide, whether I am right or not. (ctd)

(ctd)
Squeers “suspects there's something besides this life, rather than nothing”, this is also my position - although I believe rather than suspect - and that of many others, although we differ in the way we imagine the unimaginable.

Besides, there is little known - in spite of all the NDE reporting - about what happens in the human brain when it passes the point of no return. We only know that there are experiences (e.g. dreams) that we perceive as taking very long, although objectively they last just a few minutes.

[Perhaps this can explain the subjective “duration” of purgatory or hell experiences that objectively might last only a fraction of a second. Of course, this is a pure speculation on my side: if “hell” stands for non-existence, as our atheists believe in (and hope for?), then there still should be a difference between the dying experience of a righteous atheist and a Stalin or Hitler.]

Jim Carrey: Maybe there is no actual place called Hell. Maybe Hell is just having to listen to our grandparents breathe through their noses when they're eating sandwiches.

Dear Yabby,

I can relate so much to your enjoyment
of the land and the animals you have.
When I was a little girl we lived in a
rural area - and I had access to dairy cows,
horses, chooks, and sheep. I had a pet duck
which I loved dearly - but my big affection
was for the dairy cows. To this day I still have
an affinity with farm animals.

Dear Belly,

The thread about ghosts - rings a bell. I started
one asking people about mysterious happenings in
their lives - but I can't remember the name of it.

Dear Squeers,

Thanks for your kind words.

I agree with you - I think it's great to have a bit
of mystery in one's life. It would be rather dull
if we had all the answers. Thanks for your Jesus
quote - I've added it to my list. It's great!

Dear Philo,

I can't even begin to imagine your out of body
experience . It must have really shaken you up.
That's something that would live with you for the
rest of your life.

Dear Sherkahn,

Nothing lives forever
So many say that's true
But I'm determined to come back
And that's what I will do!

Dear George,

Thank You for your beautiful words.
I do believe in hope, most definitely.
I've attended several funerals in the
past year and during each one I preferred
to celebrate not the crucifixtion of the
worldly passing, although I certainly allowed
myself to feel its sting. Rather I preferred
to celebrate the Resurrection of the deceased
by which they shall live forever.

Dear Pynch,

Thanks - loved it!

Foxy

You are the only Christian to this forum who actually leads by example. The grace you show to all contributors even the most vexatious is beyond my level of patience. There are those who would claim that it is your religious beliefs that are the foundation for your grace.

They are wrong.

You would be 'Foxy' no matter from which culture you emerged - you are unique and special - no amount of proselytising can change the essential being that you are. Whether there is survival of the mind; the unique individual after death of the physical body, no-one knows. No-one.

Therefore, the best we can do is live with as much grace as we can in this life. That we may live on in the thoughts and memories of others, is a success not afforded to all.

It’s all very well and good to speak of hope in some sort of afterlife, and a little part of me wishes for an afterlife of some sort too, but I refuse to hold any specific belief in an afterlife because I care about my beliefs being true. And let’s face it - ghost stories, out-of-body experiences and the likes tend to have perfectly rational explanations for them anyway.

To me, having as many of my beliefs as possible being true is of more importance than having a sense of hope, because if I’m conscious when my time inevitably comes, I would prefer that I spent my last few moments not kidding myself. I find it far more sad that so many people choose to spend their last ever moments of consciousness with a false sense of hope rather than caring about whether or not what they believe is true.

To me, that is far more tragic than any loss of hope could possibly be, because I don’t think anyone could really appreciate the significance of those last ever moments of consciousness while kidding themselves.

I think there may be a slight flaw in your logic, AJ Philips

>>I find it far more sad that so many people choose to spend their last ever moments of consciousness with a false sense of hope<<

Why would you feel sad for someone who is about to die, happy?

They will be unaware that they are harbouring a false hope, will they not, so are highly likely to die happily.

Even willingly, if they believe they are destined for paradise.

They may even be looking forward to it.

>>I don’t think anyone could really appreciate the significance of those last ever moments of consciousness while kidding themselves.<<

Are they that significant, really? After all, you are unlikely to be aware which particular breath will be your last, will you.

And if they do turn out to be your "last ever moments of consciousness", you will forever be unaware that you had been kidding yourself.

Thus avoiding any later sense of disappointment.

I believe the concept of an afterlife has been in our collective psyche ever since we started to wonder "is this all there is?" The prospect of a form of paradise can be a comforting thought, especially if your life has been painful.

Personally, I firmly believe that after our death, we will exist in exactly the same sense that we did before we were born.

Except that the tense will change.

What was the future before we were born, becomes the past after we die.

But we do not actually "exist" in the present tense, either side of the bookends of our life.

Yeah, I know what you mean, Pericles. I thought of the fact that it wouldn’t matter because you would simply cease to exists in all consciousness anyway, and I probably did put too much of an emphasis on those “last few moments” that we are unlikely to be aware are our last anyway.

My main point is that the truth of my beliefs is something that is very important to me (and I think should be to anyone). Even though it won’t matter after I’m gone, the fact that I did all I could have to ensure that my beliefs were as true as they possibly could have been is something that will make me die a happy person, and this is value that seems to be absent in all religious believers.

I guess I just get frustrated at the thought of people not appreciating just how infinitesimally shorter our lives are than the eternity they think they’ve got. Particularly since I have an ill and aging parent on the other side of the world who appears to be in no rush to spend myself or my siblings because he’s totally convinced that we’ll be re-united in paradise anyway.

This kind of goes back to my lottery analogy of religious belief making someone happy, meaning that if I convince myself that I’ve won the lottery, that might make me feel happy, but if I start living life as though I really had won the lottery, then that happiness can act as a negative force.

Of course, living one’s life is very different to the last few moments I was talking about and that you responded to, but just so you know where I’m coming from...

AJ Phillips,
With self justification statements like this you are totally ignorant of others intelligent positions; "after I’m gone, the fact that I did all I could have to ensure that my beliefs were as true as they possibly could have been is something that will make me die a happy person, and this is value that seems to be absent in all religious believers."

What is the value and purpose of your life once you are dead? There is still a sense of hope beyond your death, creeping through in these vain words. In your own religious view there is no hope no future, stop kidding yourself.

Religion is what you believe with a passion that governs your life, it does not have to be theistic or formally recognised by the State.

Tests have been done on the brain of people who passionately believe in the afterlife and there is a strong positive electromagnetic field surrounding them, while persons without hope of any future radiate a strong negative field.

Dear Severin,

You made my spirit soar.
Thank You.

We seem to be living in meanspirited times.
People instinctively attack. There's often
more criticism leveled against success than
failure, more suspicion of excellence than
of mediocrity. You've always provided a
support system for many of us here on OLO,
even though I know that you've had your own
problems to deal with. Yet you were always
there on hand to lend the resources of kindness
and strength to help us back up.

I feel privileged to count you as a friend.

Dear AJ Philips,

Each of us has to find our own way of dealing
with things. For me - it's hope - for you it's
truth. May both of us find comfort in our
beliefs.

Dear Pericles,

Beautifully expressed - as always.
To each his own.

Dear Philo,

Marianne Williamson wrote,
"No conventional therapy can release us from
a deep and abiding psychic pain.
Through prayer we find what we cannot find
elsewhere: a peace that is not of this
world. Praying for someone is a gracious act.
It gives blessing to the one who prays,
as well to the person who is prayed for."

Oh gawd, here we go!

I long for the day when a rational point can be made and it isn’t met with some hot-head reaction.

Philo,

<<With self justification statements like this you are totally ignorant of others intelligent positions>>

And what intelligent positions would they be? Near death experiences? Miracle healings that co-incidentally can’t be extend to amputees? Special revelations that somehow aren’t afforded to all? Ridiculous ontological arguments that fall down at their premises?

<<What is the value and purpose of your life once you are dead?>>

Once I’m dead? Other than the legacy I leave with those whose lives I’ve touched, probably not much. Why?

<<There is still a sense of hope beyond your death, creeping through in these vain words.>>

Vein or not, it’s my observation. No one who cares about the truth of their beliefs adopts a belief for which there is absolutely no evidence.

It’s that simple.

<<In your own religious view there is no hope no future, stop kidding yourself.>>

This is the classic arrogance of the religious, many of whom seem to that that you need an afterlife promise and an invisible friend for any sort of meaning in life.

And what was I kidding myself about anyway?

<<Religion is what you believe with a passion that governs your life, it does not have to be theistic...>>

I suggest you look the meaning of the word “religion”... http://tinyurl.com/cfuk3t

It’s interesting how the religious so often have to downgrade everything to a “religion”. As if their minds were incapable of seeing anything in a different context.

<<Tests have been done on the brain of people who passionately believe in the afterlife and there is a strong positive electromagnetic field surrounding them, while persons without hope of any future radiate a strong negative field.>>

I don’t doubt that for a second. But what’s that got to do with the truth of the matter?

If I have terminal cancer and the doctor lies to me and tells me I’m fine, that’s going to make me feel good, but that doesn’t mean it’s true.

Yes, that's a good way of putting it, Foxy...

<<Each of us has to find our own way of dealing with things. For me - it's hope - for you it's truth.>>

I maintain my beliefs, or lack of beliefs no matter how much I may not like them. For example, it's easy to say that death will be just like before we were born, but the difference will be that unlike before we were born, death will be permanent and eternal.

This, to me, is the most unnerving aspect of reality, but I’ll continue to believe this to be the case - regardless of how much I hate the idea - until reliable evidence to the contrary arises.

But to cope with this unsettling reality, I simply remind myself of the infinitely large amount of people who will never get to die because they will never be born at all.

Put in this context, we will never truly grasp just how unbelievably lucky each one of us really is.

Dear AJ Philips,

I watched my step father die.

He was such a passionate and determined man,
and unfortunately he was dealt a miserable
blow by suffering a series of strokes which
left him partially paralysed down one side -
and he lost the power of speech - the power
to communicate. He was forced finally into
a nursing home, where after a few years he decided
he'd had enough - and refused all food and medication.
Watching him deteriorate was dreadful.

He was not a religious man, however, mum called
for a priest to give him his last rites. Pop accepted
Communion - and the last rites - and died peacefully.
I'm not sure how much comfort he got from all this -
but I do know that he seemed at peace when he passed
away.

I think that whatever brings a person comfort - can't
be bad. And each of us finds comfort in our own way.
My way may not be right for others - but I can only
do what's right for me. As can you for you.

Anyway, let's hope that we both live a long, long, life
yet! :-)

Philo <" Tests have been done on the brain of people who passionately believe in the afterlife and there is a strong positive electromagnetic field surrounding them, while persons without hope of any future radiate a strong negative field."

Really? I would love to see the scientific results of such tests.
Do you have any websites with this information?
Were the tests done under scientific guidelines or were they attended by religious organisations?

I have seen many people die in my job. The non-religious people died just as peacefully as the others, given the same circumstances.

AJ Philips,<<''i maintain my beliefs,or lack of beliefs no matter how much I may not like them.>>that sure sounds like your maintaining a negative belief/if your belief greats a negative/how sound is it

<<For example,it's easy to say that death will be just like before we were born,>>>sure easy to say/but totally wrong..see before we wwre born/we had the life force of one living sperm[living energy that has grown over your life]..so much more..'energy when we die/..ENERGY/cannot be created nor destroyed'[life comes from life/life energy must live on..[or science is fraud]

<<..but the difference will be that unlike before we were born, death will be permanent and eternal.>>a falicy in so many ways..death is a change of state..one constant in life is change..permanent death is a delusion...[a negative'faith'...you use eternal like a blind man says i see...if your belief precludes death..there can be no eternal/concept founding your errant belief

<<This,[death will be permanent and eternal]..to me,..is the most unnerving aspect of reality,..but I’ll continue..to believe this to be the case/regardless of how much I hate the idea/>>i dont think you hate as much as fear/your delusional missconception of 'eternal'

after death is life/ever evolving/mothing is permant/except the life force sustaining us to live[our being born again/and again..many times[growing changing eternally]..'so much more shall be given'

<<until reliable evidence..to the contrary arises.>>lol your so sure/present your evidence[why should we provide evidence to you/its your belief/its your choice to believe/give life to a lie..you have a hope/fear/not a belief

<<But to cope..with this unsettling reality,>>your belief gives you cope/my belief creates hope/[actually a surity../but believe as you chose/..but why chose such a negative belief/..hope/not cope

[if im wrong i will never know/if your wrong you have eternity/...knowing your decieved yourself]..needlessly/negativly

Thanks for sharing that, Foxy. I don’t want to be the Grinch here, but there just seemed to be so much wishful thinking going on in this thread that I thought I’d throw something different into the mix to shake things up a bit.

OUG,

<<[if im wrong i will never know...>>

Actually, considering how many Gods there are, you’re virtually as likely as me to be wrong if a God does exist. So if you're wrong and a different God does exist, then you'll still know about it.

But at least I’m not making this God or Gods extra angry by worshipping a false God. Think of it as an Atheist’s Wager as opposed to the fallacious Pascal’s Wager.

<<.../if your wrong you have eternity/...knowing your decieved yourself...>>

No, if I’m wrong, I’ll at least live for an eternity in the comfort of knowing that I didn’t foolishly believe in a God despite the total lack of evidence.

No deceiving myself there.

You see, OUG, if it matters not that I may be wrong, because if this God of yours or any other God actually exists, then it has some serious ‘splaing to do.

I am still curious why people feel it is important or necessary to believe in an afterlife, or reincarnation, or more broadly a continuation of some form of ones being past death (supposedly conscious or else what would be the point),.

Certainly those who live incredibly blighted lives may have a sense of being 'owed a better one' or the belief in a paradise allowed them to cope with their lot, but I would hazard a guess that most posters on OLO are hardly in that category.

Is it the perfectionist that lies within so many of us? Do we feel if we had another chance we could do so much better, that we wouldn't make so many mistakes, that our regrets would be fewer?

Is it possibly a product of parenthood? Maternal and paternal instincts are very powerful emotions and we all have a sense that our children would be lost without us. Perhaps the thought that we will be looking over them after our demise is a comfort to us and maybe our children. Has this informed our religions? 'There will come a day when I will join the father in heaven'.

Might it be the thought of 'The lonely grave'? A fear of dark, claustrophobic places?

Is it that our instinct for life is so strong, as it is in many other creatures, that the idea that life continues after death helps deal with the stress that awareness of ones inevitable mortality must obviously bring?

Is it a sense of disappointment that this might 'be all there is'? I'm with Dawkins on this one – why on earth don't we feel this is enough?

I'm a little reluctant to pursue this given many of the posts above, but as open debate is why we are here on this forum I shall take the risk. Some have discussed what they believe but not why. Is it too difficult? Does that type of self examination threaten ones beliefs or is it just the wrong question?

Dear Foxy,
I’d have to agree with AJ Philips that putting hope and truth in one context is “a good way of putting it”, although I do not think they represent mutually exclusive perspectives. They are related: hope without truth is pointless, truth without hope is barren. Hope is what the Yin in us points to, Truth is what the Yang in us points to, if you can bear a mathematician’s attempts at poetry.

So I think it is more of a question of preference: while I think I still have a couple of years left to live, truth is in the foreground, hope in the background; on my deathbed, I reckon, it will be the other way around.

Hope is a state of mind, perhaps not that distinct from Faith. Truth is what science (and for some also religion) deals with and what philosophy (including that of science and of religion) tries to understand.

Especially for a dying person, Faith can offer peace of mind (apparently the case of your stepfather) coming from Hope, as hard as it is to imagine its promises. This does not mean that there are no other ways of dying peacefully, e.g. succumbing to the hopelessness of “non-existence”, perhaps because it requires no imagination.

csteele: <"... why on earth don't we feel this is enough?">

I am not sure Steele. I agree with George that there is wonderful comfort in nurturing one's spiritual beliefs (people with spiritual beliefs are also mentally and physically healthier though explanations vary as to why that seems to be the case). I think too that if we reject that there is more than this earthly life; we are then also required to reject every unusual experience down through time - like NDEs and all that. That would mean rejecting what seems like some available evidence wouldn't it.

Maybe too many of us feel that there needs to be more than this life because of the matter of justice. You know the sort of thing where some individuals are born into such wretched disadvantage that the only ones for whom this life might be "enough" are those who have had a pretty good one.

Personally I don't mind if I only get the one. Like most people I've had my downs and ups but on the whole I think I have been blessed. I am very grateful for the life I've had.

People say "reincarnation" and all I can say is that I hope we get a chance for good nap in between carnations. I'm a tired woman! Plus I don't feel like going all the way through school again :)

the a-thiest delusion revealed..lol,,<<Actually,..considering how many Gods there are,>>please explain...there is one god..[of many names..one god sustaining all lives/..god is one..how we think of him/or how we name him/or how we judge him to be..is simply delusion/..delusions of men

<<you’re virtually..as likely as me to be wrong..if a God does exist>>no one can be wrong about the egsistance of god/you athiests delude yourself with the faulse god heads..as well as the nature of that which you deney[even those thinking god man are incorrect[ghod is no trinity/god is no judge...god is emanuel[god within/that we do/did to the least we do to him/dsustaining from within..even the least to live

<<So if you're wrong..and a different God does exist,.then you'll still know about it>>>you athiests are children/why fear you gods love?.

<<But at least I’m not making this God or Gods extra angry by worshipping a false God>>you cannot anger god[please see he sustains/EVEN THE MOST VILE LIFE..their lives to live

<<Think of it as an Atheist’s Wager as opposed to the fallacious Pascal’s Wager.>>.there is no end to you athiests deluding

<<..I’m wrong,..I’ll at least live/for an eternity..in the comfort of knowing that I didn’t foolishly believe..in a God despite the total lack of evidence>>there is your delusion/not only dening god his due...but/..calling his..unjudgmental love/..a lie.

<<No deceiving myself there>>...lol..think my foolish disbeliever...its not you athiests alone who shall live herafter..but those who laugh at you/as well as love you despite your decieving others..away..from gods true living/loving nature...

the worst sin there is..in the after real;ms...its not your deluding you/..but your decieving others/..like your chldren/for all chidren are children of god[good[love/light/mercy/grace...you suck away the hope of others..yet god sustains even leeches their lives

<<if it matters not that I may be wrong,>>yes it dont[to god]..but its not god/good alone/who lives herafter#

<<if this God of yours/..or any other God..actually exists,..then it has some serious ‘splaing to do.>>>what delusion/..he gave you the light logic/love/life...what more expect you to be given..
Posted by AJ Philips

Well no one researched that other thread on this subject.
It took a different path but was quite interesting.
I will try to find it next few days.
It told some spooky storys about after life or near death things and many contributed, think philo did.
One under God welcome back still do not share your views but read them interesting stuff.

The Dawkins interview of the Bishop of Oxford is interesting. Here is the first part of the four part series, all of which are well worth the viewing time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ0WinCWtLs

Much of the comment appearing on OLO is critical of fundamentalists, particularly Christian fundamentalists and creationists. While these remain easy marks for some, there is a larger progressive, moderate group of Christians who are are rarely mentioned and even more rarely interviewed or have their opinions published - probably because their views are not sensational.

The progressive, moderate Christians are accepting of scientific discoveries and are continually evolving their beliefs and interpretation of the messages of the Bible. That is a good thing. Thinking more generally, moderate Christians' beliefs also evolve along with social change where sometimes they might lead or as most institutions do, evolve through steady incrementalist change. A case in point could be homosexuality, which is quite accepted by moderates and has been for a long time.

There is very little certainty in the world except the physical death of living things. Perhaps the 'science-based' critics of 'religion' might consider that most moderate Christians more usually have beliefs just as they do and are not so entirely rooted in 'faith' as they (the critics) suppose.

How much of science is a certainty, or better still, how much of the universe has been explained with scientific certainty, not belief?

Not defending either side, just suggesting a little humility.

Thanks, OUG.

The one thing I do appreciate about your posts is that they act like a gauge. The more ‘on the money’ someone is, more incoherent they become.

Cornflower,

That’s all very nice. But I for one am pretty tired of having to put exceptions on everything I say about religion such as: “Of course, not all Christians are like that”.

The moderates are the ones who are choosing for themselves, the same label (i.e. Christian) as the whackos out there who are still stuck in a medieval mindset.

If the moderates are continually are evolving and growing more distant from the fundamentalists, then they have the choice to change their label and perhaps even seriously modify their Bible to be more acceptable for today’s modern society.

But it is not my responsibility or anyone else’s to continually add exceptions to everything we say if moderate Christians are still wilfully choosing to worship under the same name as the fundamentalists. Nor is it fair that myself or others cop any subtle suggestions that we may lack humility because of this.

pynchme,

'I am very grateful for the life I've had.'
Really? But you're a woman. A downtrodden martyr of society.

The art of “Praying” is still within the compass of old Sherkahn's habits. We Nature lovers; Tree huggers, Pagans, Darwinian realists, Galapagoans, are aware that everything on Earth is ‘The Complete Package’, ie; the God that you believe is never sleeping 100th of an Olympic second, seeing ‘round corners, through the bedclothes, down the Mine, even into ‘Hades’, is your Subconscious Mind!
We all have come across the general advice, when one has a problem, “sleep on it”. The Conscious mind off-loads the too hard basket into the Sub-Conscious mind during sleep.
The Sub-Conscious either presents a solution of the problem to the Conscious mind, OR, prepares you for the worst, by switching on Hormones for the body and Conscious mind to deal with the shock. You say: “God heard my prayer”.
Your God is a Palliative necessity for the majority of temperaments of the human mob. Religion is also a great Tribal or Social Club that gives you, that necessary Tribal feeling of ‘Belonging’.
I have no desire to see it crushed, only changed. Yet I am no Henry V111, or indeed Cromwell or a Communist, I love and respect religious architecture and religious music, all created by man. Each Sunday night at 10.30 pm, with my headphones on I listen to our wonderful, ABC Classic FM program, The God Who Sings, for 2 hours.
My idea of ‘being close to God’ would be, if I could touch the skin of a live Galapagos Island, Iguana, also, have my hand trod on by a Galapagos Island ‘Booby’: ie: Albatross. I have stood looking into the eye of such a bird, 3 metres from me, for several minutes, while ‘at sea’. If it had been in reach I would have kissed it.
What would be wonderful, and fill the churches again, ‘tweaking God’s words a bit’, would be for Religion to stop being so Narcissistic about the Human Supremacy, and worship Nature and all it’s creatures realistically. We may then ‘save the world’s Flora and Fauna.
If the world’s population were half of what it is, there would be hope.

I'm so grateful to you all for the opinions
expressed on this thread. They're insightful,
honest, and I'm gaining a great deal from them.

I think our understanding of death and dying has
been greatly increased by the pioneering work of
Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, who conducted extensive
interviews with dying people. She suggested that
there are five stages through which a terminally
ill person often proceeds after learning the truth.

The first is denial - "It can't be happening to me."
The second is anger - "Why me?"
The third is bargaining - the implicit agreement to
go willingly if God or fate will just allow the
dying person to live a little longer, perhaps until
some significant event such as a family wedding.
The fourth stage is depression - a state of deep
anxiety over the loss of self and the loss of one's
family. And the final stage is acceptance, in which
the dying person approaches death with a true peace
of mind.

I haven't had much experience with any of this - although
I've seen some very healthy and accepting attitudes
towards death in old-age homes and other places where
the elderly live together.

I trust that when my turn comes - I shall approach things
with a true peace of mind - and to be honest, for me
my religion will be a part and parcel of my peace of mind -
Why? Because it gives me solace. But as I've said before -
that's just me - and I wouldn't presume to tell other what's
right for them.

A J Phillips, "But it is not my responsibility or anyone else’s to continually add exceptions to everything we say if moderate Christians are still wilfully choosing to worship under the same name as the fundamentalists. Nor is it fair that myself or others cop any subtle suggestions that we may lack humility because of this."

It is completely up to you if you want to lump everyone in together and tar them with the one brush. No-one asked you to 'cop' anything.

You are OK and they are not OK - yep, got that, have a nice day.

Cornflower,

I am not tarring everyone with the same brush. All I’m saying is that I’m not going to continually put an exception to everyone of my criticisms to avoid the holier-than-thou amongst us displaying how righteous they in raising the obvious point that not all Christians are the same.

So no sorry, Cornflower, it is not up to me or anyone else as it is the moderate Christians who make the conscious decision to keep the label.

I've just received an email from a friend with
a joke that I thought is rather topical:

While walking down the street one day a Member
of Parliament is tragically hit by a truck and dies.

His soul arrives in Heaven and is met by St Peter
at the Pearly Gates.

"Welcome to Heaven," says St Peter. "Before you
settle in, it seems there is a problem. We seldom
see a high official around these parts, you see,
so we're not sure what to do with you."

"No problem, just let me in," says the MP.

"Well, I'd like to but I have orders from higher up.
What we'll do is have you spend one day in Hell and one
in Heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity."

"Really, I've made up my mind. I want to be in Heaven,"
says the MP.

"I'm sorry, but we have our rules."

And with that, St Peter escorts the MP to the elevator
and the man goes down, down, down to Hell. The doors open
and he finds himself in the middle of a green golf course.
In the distance is a Clubhouse and standing in front of it
are many of his friends and other politicians who had
worked with him.

Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to
greet him, shake his hand, and reminisce about the good
times they had.

They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster,
caviar and champagne. Also present is the devil who really
is a very friendly and nice guy who has a good time
dancing and telling jokes. They are having such a good
time that before he realizes it's time to go.

Everyone gives the MP a hearty farewell and wave while
the elevator rises.

cont'd ...

cont'd ...

The elevator goes up, up, up, and the door reopens on
Heaven where St Peter is waiting for the MP.

"Now it's time to visit Heaven."

So, 24 hours pass with the MP joining a group of
contented souls moving from cloud to cloud playing
the harp and singing. They have a good time and
before he realizes it the 24 hours have gone by and
St Peter returns.

"Well, then, you've spent a day in Hell and another in
Heaven. Now choose your eternity."

The MP reflects for a minute, then he answers.

"Well, I would never have said it before, I mean Heaven
has been delightful, but I think I would be better off in
Hell."

So St Peter escorts the MP to the elevator and the MP
goes down, down, down, to Hell.

Now the doors of the elevator open and the MP finds
himself in the middle of a barren wasteland covered
with waste and garbage.

He sees all of his friends dressed in rags, picking up
trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls
from above.

The devil comes over to the MP and puts his arm around his
shoulder.

"I don't understand," stammers the MP. "Yesterday I was here
there was a golf course and a Clubhouse, and we ate lobster
and caviar and drank champagne, and danced and had a great
time. Now there's just a wasteland full of garbage and my
friends look miserable."

The devil looks at the MP smiles and says,

"Yesterday we were campaigning."

"Today you voted."

A J Phillips

So according to you the moderate mainstream of Christianity should find another label to worship under and dump the bible?

Moderate Muslims should find another label to worship under and dump the Koran?

Moderate Australians should find another label and dump their constitution, laws, parliament, country or what?

All so you don't have to make 'exceptions' in your stereotyping of others. You beaut, consider it done and go you good thing!

Cornflower,

<<So according to you the moderate mainstream of Christianity should find another label to worship under and dump the bible?>>

Not if they don’t want.

<<Moderate Muslims should find another label to worship under and dump the Koran?>>

Not if they don’t want.

<<Moderate Australians should find another label and dump their constitution, laws, parliament, country or what?>>

We’re talking about religion here. This is a red herring.

<<All so you don't have to make 'exceptions' in your stereotyping of others.>>

I’m not necessarily stereotyping. That’s the whole point

I suggest you go back and read what I’ve said.

A delightful little parable rather than joke, Foxy, that beautifully portrays (for me) the vital role of ideology in making our capitalist saturnalia seem preferable to the really important things in life: compassion, friendship, moderation, self-knowledge etc.?
And this is perhaps the problem with a nihilist-atheist (a certain kind of atheist) or rationalist perspective; there's nothing to know about the Self that can't be deconstructed, that doesn't vanish in aporia. Whereas, I would argue there's a great deal that might emerge were such a catharsis of ideology possible and the Self were able to develop in a healthier medium.
The rationalist perspective is legitimately for boffins who ideally live their ideology in practice (think of "The Big Bang Theory), but it's an imposition when it takes on the proportion of an ontology for the rest of us--necessarily impoverished of moral/ethical attributes that amount to anything more than pragmatics.
To me it's not really important whether anything essential survives death, it's more a matter of being "worthy" to survive death (whether or not we do), which puts the emphasis on transcending the limitations/temptations of life. The essence of the parable?

I sound decidedly more mystical than I'm comfortable with here; but I won't be censored into the kind of binary logic and reductionism that the current rationalist-orthodoxy fetishises.

Dear Squeers,

You certainly do sound very mystical.

However - it was meant merely as a joke.
The friend who sent me the email is not
at all into any form of "mysticism."
She just thought it a top joke - is all!

Whereas, I thought it funny as well - and
topical (as in - there's an election coming
up at the end of this year).

Foxy: "You certainly do sound very mystical.

However - it was meant merely as a joke."

How mortifying!
However, I can assure you, I only "sound" mystical---anything beyond the level of CDF generally does, but there's solid thinking behind it.

'Tis still a good parable too, if you've got the ear for it.
:-)

Before I forget Dear People -
I want to take this opportunity to wish
you all a very Happy Easter break.
Enjoy time with your loved ones, relax,
take time out to do the things you enjoy.
And try not to eat too much chocolate.

I'm looking forward to my daughter-in-law's
cooking. She's invited us for Easter Sunday
lunch. She's an excellent cook, and I get to
spend time with my beautiful (first) grandson.

Prior to that - I shall spend my time reading
Richard Dawkins' book, "The God Delusion."
My husband bought it for me today -
and it does look interesting.
I wonder what he has to say about an afterlife?

easter?...passover was a few days ago..

The holiday of Pesach,..or Passover,..falls on the Hebrew calendar dates of Nissan 15-22...

Here is coinciding/secular dates/2010: March..30-April 6...as usual jesus own..knew not even the day he died/..let alone that he..came back/returned..3 days later..ie he died on tuesday...rose from the dead today...!

near as i can tell easter/comes from ester

Hidden/Revealed
Traditional Jews believe that God is hidden behind all the events of the Megillah...Rabbis referred to God's role as hester panim,..or "hiding of the Face",..which is also said to be hinted at in a word play..(Megilat Hester)..regarding the Hebrew name for the Book of Esther,

Megillat Esther—literally,.."revelation of..[that which is]..hidden")...

as recorded in the Biblical Book of Esther (Megillat Esther).

Jewish exiles from the Kingdom of Judah who had been living in the Babylonian captivity (6th Century BCE) found themselves under Persian rule after Babylonia was in turn conquered by Cyrus the Great, King of the Persians and Medians and founder of the Persian Empire

who according to the Biblical Book of Ezra released them from captivity and allowed those that wished to return to Jerusalem, giving them back the money which Nebuchadnezzar II had carried away from Jerusalem[2].

According to the Book of Esther, Haman, royal vizier to King Ahasuerus planned to kill the Jews, but his plans were foiled by Esther, his queen. Mordecai, a palace official, cousin and foster parent of Esther, subsequently replaced Haman.

The Jews were delivered from being the victims of an evil decree against them and were instead allowed by the King to destroy their enemies, and the day after the battle was designated as a day of feasting and rejoicing.

Note:..The Jewish calendar date begins at sundown of the night beforehand.

Thus all holiday observances – including the Pesach,..or Passover – begin the night before the dates listed...Jewish calendar dates also conclude at nightfall

squeers...<<..to the really important things in life: compassion, friendship, moderation, self-knowledge etc.!>!>!

as foxey is dedicating herself to family time..[ok and im not]..i would ask for more info/please explain..

<<And this is perhaps the problem with a nihilist-atheist...or rationalist perspective;..there's nothing to know about the Self that can't be deconstructed,..that doesn't vanish in aporia.>>in truth its the big words..that hide the simple solutions...

i sometimes use certain words...maybe thats why people dont get me...and im left posting..on family time

<<..Whereas,..I would argue there's a great deal that might emerge..were such a catharsis of ideology possible and the Self were able to develop in a healthier medium.>>...like stopping to enjoy the family?

<<The rationalist perspective is legitimately for boffins who ideally live their ideology in practice>>i guess im in with the boffins...though i thought boffons/teq heads/

...or for the simpleminded..a simulie for buffoon's...nerds who's degree of specialisation..has exceeded their ability..to socialise..with the common folk

<<(think of.."The Big Bang Theory)..>>theorists?..<<,..but it's an imposition..when it takes on the proportion of an ontology..for the rest of us>>[us/simple folk?.. i will presume/assume to be both...in the eyes of simple folk

<..necessarily impoverished of moral/ethical attributes that amount to anything more than pragmatics.>>>its the kiss principle...simple people relly on simplisdtic logic...that sates their questioning..

<<To me it's not really important..whether anything essential survives death,..it's more a matter of being "worthy" to survive death..(whether or not we do),>>>..i guess thats a self judgment call..

the issue/for me..being...god himself deems ALL living to be worth sustaining to live...not for our reasons..but his...[we are all works in progress../god knows the finished ..'picture/person/spirit/essence..is worth his faith

<<which puts the emphasis..on transcending the limitations/temptations of life...>>god dosnt seek us to suffer...he gifts us logic/life..then allows us each...to love love..in our own way..[individually..the narrow path..

<<..The essence of the parable?>>is that we each reveal our under-standing..according to that..we are able to comprehend...politrickians lie..and are thus hung on their own petards...in the end

Good to see you're still with us, OUG, I was beginning to think you'd been 'taken up'.
Sorry if my post was a bit cryptic; I'm not trying to be over anyone's head, have just been reading a lot of Derrida and he's a powerful drop.
I was juxtaposing the "important things", "compassion, friendship, moderation, self-knowledge", with capitalist anti-values: self-interest/pull-the-ladder-up, exploitation, glut, false-consciousness etc.

According to leading thinkers, across the spectrum, the Self is a pure abstraction, composed of ideology, in the form of language, which is always "aporetic" rather than definitive. Hence our deepest cogitations are mere "language games" with no intrinsic meaning or truth--which concepts are themselves nothing more than the transient "subjectivity of culture", if I can conflate the two terms. There is no "individual" subjectivity to ponder fictions such as "truths". Each one of us is so many phrases and nothing more, at the level of the self--that is, beyond the brute human animal in which our "real" existence is manifested. The self/mind/soul is a purely cultured thing; hot air; hubris.
Rationalism is the ultimate bummer or nihilism, then--no?
Of course capitalism, religion and humanism give this the lie, celebrating the "individual", just as though it was real. The concept moves product, after all, and alienates the population from each other and the world--a kind of human aporia. How much "self-knowledge" or "community spirit" do you really see out there? These are tropes we take for granted as truths, whereas, in fact, benighted confusion/delusion rules.

"The Big Bang Theory" is a tv show that illustrates my point in the post above.

Happy Easter/consumerism :-)

Foxy

Been away, having internet connection probs, managed to isolate exactly where the interference is caused. So I am back online and feeling mighty pleased with myself - the troubleshooting involved a great deal of disconnecting and reconnecting various leads, thus testing everything linked to my landline. ATM have only isolated 'bad' connection. But once you know where the problem is everything just falls into place. You may have guessed by now that I love solving problems, if only I could do something about the blown head-gasket on my car that doesn't include a recon motor or simply selling the car for parts.... but then I am not omnipotent.

Loved your joke - gave me a well-needed laugh. All in all a very good thread you have created here (if one ignores the sniping). Sitting here munching into some hot-cross buns - thank God for fertility celebrations! I have an idea, shouldn't ALL religions be accorded the same reverence? OK, this year with Passover, Orthodox Easter and regular Easter all falling at the same time - not much advantage. But imagine if we celebrated ALL the religious special occasions of ALL religions - holidays galore! At least we should observe Jewish traditions - this being a Judeo-Christian culture, according to many Christians.

The only people who would miss out would be atheists. Only jokin'.

Happy Oestre.

I must admit that I'm pleased with the
way this thread has developed - and with
the insightful responses that came out of it.
I for one have gained so much from them
so all I can say is a huge Thank You to all
of you who contributed.

To me personally it doesn't matter what you
believe - as I've said previously - it's to
each his own - as long as it doesn't hurt
anyone.

For me this thread has now run its course however
But I want to leave one final quote before I go:

"I come from a tribe of nature worshippers,
pantheists, believers in faeries, forest sprites, and
wood nymphs. Who heard devils in their windmills, met
them in the woods, cloven-hooved and dapper gentlemen
of the night. Who named the god of thunder, who praised
and glorified bread, dark rye waving waist-high out of
the earth, and held it sacred, wasting not a crumb.
Who spent afternoons mushrooming in forests of pine, fir,
and birch. Who transferred Jesus from his wooden cross,
transformed him into a wood-carved, worrying peasant,
raised him on a wooden pole above the crossroads where
he sat with infinite patience in rain and snow, wooden
legs apart, wooden elbows on wooden knees, wooden chin
in wooden hand, worrying and sorrowing for the world...

These people who named their sons and daughters after
amber, rue, fir tree, dawn, storm, are the only people
I know who have a diminutive form for God Himself,
"Dievulis," - "God-my-little-buddy."

Any wonder I catch myself speaking to trees, flowers,
bushes - these eucalyptus so far from Northern Europe.
Or that I bend down to the earth, gather pebbles, acorns,
leaves, boles, bring them home, enshrine them on
mantelpieces or above porcelain fixtures in corners, any
wonder I grow nervous in rooms and must step outside and
touch a tree, or sink my toes in the dirt, or watch the
birds fly by..."
(Al Zolynas, "LITUANUS, Lithuanian Quarterly Journal of
the Arts and Sciences," V. 49, No. 2. Summer 2003).

That's beautiful Foxy.

I wish this thread wouldn't end. It's been a real joy to come by
and read even when I haven't felt like posting.

The joke was great Foxy. Sat here laughing. Thanks for that.

Squeers - love reading your posts. I admire your mastery of deconstruction and all that. You explain it so well as you inform.
Btw: I read somewhere that the Big Bang Theory came about after God said to some scientists, "Here, pulleth my finger." (Gave me a giggle anyway:))

OUG - Your posts are deconstruction in action. I've always enjoyed your word play and all. You put forward concepts and question them or reveal their fallibility at the same time. Always so much to think about.

Severin - I've just had a lovely piece of barramundi with lemon juice for lunch. Hot cross buns will be later. You're such a li'l technocrat! Car problem - what a bummer. I can never decide whether it's more economically advantageous to have a mechanic, a plumber or a dentist in the family.

For people who don't go in for buns at Easter time here's an Easter time bun fight you might get a laugh out of instead. The last couple of paragraphs are bizarrely funny:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/04/01/2862989.htm

May you all have a restful and blessed Easter.

pynch

Beautiful words Foxy, while I don't run around naked hugging trees I do rejoice in the world around me - I just don't attach supernatural entities to anything, but, oh yes, I am eternally grateful to be here on this tiny planet in this vast universe.

Pynch

Thanks for being one of the few Christians (along with Foxy) who don't appear to think that non-religious are empty, materialistic and selfish - and for not blaming us for everything from Communism to Fascism.

Also, love your sense of humour. I thought Robin Williams very funny and had no problems with his joke at our expense. Rudd thinks Australia is a redneck free zone? Unlike the rest of the world? How precious.

Mmmmmmm, Burramundi - I'm having fresh trout for dinner tonight - I might lack mechanics, dentists and plumbers in my family but I have a very good friend who knows how to fish.

:)

A perfect ending of this thread with two of my favourite
posters - Pynch and Severin,
I can't ask for anything more.
Life is Good!

I had rockling for dinner tonight with a fresh
garden salad and strawberries and cantaloupe
for desert, plus a cup of green tea.
Perfect.

Again, I wish everyone a relaxing time over
this Easter break.

Thanks again for contributing to this thread