Dear TBC,

According to the Government's own website -
the Chaplaincy Program is a voluntary one -
and students don't have to participate.

And, although my children were not involved
in the program, my neighbour's children go to a
nearby school that has it - and her
children are not forced to participate. Neither
is anything rammed down their throats as you
suggest.

If your children are being forced into something
that you disapprove of - then I would suggest you
speak to the Principal about the matter - because
it sounds to me that the school is at fault here -
not the actual program - which is not mandatory -
and should definitely not be forced on anyone.

TBC,
You still seem to be arguing cross purposes and confusing facts with emotional hyperbole.
>"Were Australia …... republican status, the first 'hit' would have to be the end of all funding to religion [why?]... Rudd's and Turnbull …. exposing their sham republican credentials” [how?].

I chose my options carefully Eire (Sthn. Ireland) is a republic * and* they have a state religion.

>"Odd, examinator, that you did not list the UK as a non secular nation." < [why would I?] guilt by association? That ignores our constitution as a separate country.( a *constitutional* monarchy)

Both are wrong in fact.

Your argument is confused, as previously stated you are using specific examples (misapplication of religion) to define the totality (absolute= extreme).
By the laws of distribution extremes only sensibly define less than 1.5% at either end.
The same law dictates that there are sensibly 97% of all possibilities in between either extreme. Therefore, it makes no appreciable sense to argue by absolutes in a human world that is dominated by shades of grey.

Even George's extended definition of Atheism still falls short of absolute proof that god(s) don't exist . One can't prove something doesn't *absolutely* exist. That is a logical nonsense.

To me most political philosophy fails because they deal in with binary (absolutist) reasoning, more likely "one side fits nobody".

The over arching point is defining absolutes with regards to the human condition is NONsense, therefore discussions are/should be about shades of grey.
Even in science faith belief has it's part or else nothing would ever happen. It just shouldn't dictate. Likewise faith/religion shouldn't be dictated to by science some humans need religion. Both those two are widely separated (90%) Society the separation is less so (70%). Government without some spiritual sense becomes cold and non human. (80%).

Foxy
challenging heh? That's what I say about my neighbours :-\ .....brilliant, sheer genius :-) ok, errt, opaque, off your bean is more helpful :-|

The role of a chaplain in a school is certainly not religious education to a class; but it is giving individual counsel to a student or parent with a problem that is not linked directly to the child's education or curriculum. The problem may be an attitude, a relationship or a conflict or an emotional trauma.

The Church I attend supplies a Chaplain in the local primary school she is a trained teacher and professional counsellor.

Thanks for some very interesting and challenging contributions -esp recently. Appreciated the links, George. Rifkin’s punchy piece, if nothing else, highlights the importance of this discussion between the congregations .
Before I forget, I am concerned that Tony Jones (Qanda on Monday night ) will NOT get to the heart of much angst over the sudden resurgence of religious rhetoric in the media ( they sit on it, as though it doesn’t exist -so what do they expect when it breaks out ?). To what extent is fear driving irrational and overly controlled debate – in our communities and our media ?
If Dawkins focused on the concerns in Europe over the growth of Islam , I think it might help form a more objective view of why there is genuine fear there and, more importantly, what the fear is actually about .
Its seems to me the generalized and widespread “godtalk worry” that is about , is not so much in practice about ongoing localized concern about teaching of“creationism” in schools, for example. I share AFA’s concern about shallow science talk: of “being able to prove things” but I also reject “only what’s natural is good” talk. Aren’t we talking here ,not just about facts, but beliefs about the value of those facts . Godtalk is good talk, if it drags us deeper - to put value on words– that’s rational too eh?
It seems to me that dismissing “the other god” too , is too easy .If we are being rational here , we have the option to go behind the image and unpic the substance (fib sheet if you must -TBC) There is a lot of value in a genuine dialogue about what we believe and especially what we see as unhelpful or unrealistic in each another’s ideas and faith systems .
I share with Dawkins a concern about why science is not the seen to be the awesome career it is. I just happen to have very different reasons about why the degradation is happening, and what specific ideas have got us to this point .

Dear Examinator,

You are challenging!

I meant that in the nicest possible way -
in that you always look at things from
various aspects. You challenge all of us
to suspend judgement and do a bit more
analysis of given situations.

You, David F, George, Pericles, CJ, and
many others, are the life-blood of this
Forum - and hopefully you'll continue
posting for many years.

Examinator... there is no explaining the Irish is there, apart from noting that they have been put upon for hundreds of years by the Vatican, and that has corroded their ability to understand too much?

It is not possible to be a democratic liberal democracy and have a state religion like Christianity.

Listen to the people here in parliament that align themselves with their churches.

They say they serve the people in a democratic parliament and that the people are supreme, and able to show this by electing their own representatives.

But then they go further and say that actually, God established parliament and He is the one true power to answer to.

So, in fact they are saying that God controls parliament, and we should all be grateful for that.

Hence my comment that if we are to have a true republic here, not like the sham one of Eire, then we must dispense with any imagined links between gods and the state.

And neither Turnbull nor Rudd, as fake republicans, would agree to denying that their God was in charge upstairs.

Foxy, I know very well what the DEEWR website says, but they fail to police what goes on and the rabid evangelists have taken control of school duties where ever they are able to and now impose themselves on all, without any checks.

Philo, finding a chaplain with qualifications outside Victroia is a rarity. DEEWR does not allow chaplains to counsel students unless they have the appropriate qualifications. When the scam was set up, Howard and Bishop made it very clear that chaplains were being put into state schools to teach religious views.

Do google the early statements to see what was threatened, and the more recent stories that clearly show they evangelise and proselytise.

Agreed, your local one may not, but that would be very rare