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The Forum > General Discussion > Wanting the preserve and teach the Aboriginal language- what do you think?

Wanting the preserve and teach the Aboriginal language- what do you think?

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I see there is a call for wanting to teach the Aboriginal language in our schools.

I for one think that's a great idea as these were clever people in thier own right and, we could well learn some lessons from thier elders, if they were willing to teach us.

What do you think?
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 27 February 2010 6:18:40 AM
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Have you taken up the option or are you recommending it for the long-suffering school children?
Posted by Cornflower, Saturday, 27 February 2010 2:18:46 PM
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rehctub,
i'm totally in favour of Aboriginal parents as indeed all parents teaching their children the language of their forebears.. I don't think it can be taught in school when there's no actual language as such. Each area has it's own distinct language pretty much like in all the countries in Europe. We do need a language in which we can all communicate without hurdles brought on by language. I think English fits the bill well.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 27 February 2010 3:15:27 PM
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Dear rehctub,

Thank You for this thread.

And what a great idea - a push for
Australian languages in Australia!

I suspect that you'll get attacked for it
though by some people who cling defensively
to English and don't consider Australia as
a plural nation. We are a plural nation!

If you look up the official language of New
Zealand - its listed plurally - English and
Maori.

What would be the harm in listing English,
Pitjantjatjara, Warlpiri, Arrernte, Tiwi,
and more for us?

Many Indigenous languages were tragically lost.
The last living Aboriginal languages should be
part of our lives.

Imagine that your child is to be the only
person able to speak your mother tongue.
That is the end of a culture.

Through languages you get to discover
many inner worlds. As the author Arnold Zable
said:

"Australia can be re-imagined, transformed into a
Nation of countless dreamings..."
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 27 February 2010 3:29:36 PM
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While I admire the sentiment, the reality is that the aboriginal languages are now seldom spoken by aboriginals, and are unlikely to survive the 21st century.

Once the kids leave school, the chances are that they will never have the opportunity to use it again. So while I don't mind it being an option, but would mind it being compulsory. (PS I am not a big fan of Latin either)
Posted by Democritus, Saturday, 27 February 2010 3:34:42 PM
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It would be far better if English was again taught at our schools.

It is appalling to hear some of the kids speak today. They don't seem to have any idea what a sentence is, or a paragraph.

My spelling is not very good, but far better than the kids of today.

Don't they have to write essays or composition as it used to be?

I doubt if any are made to stand up and read a few paragraphs or recite a ballard.

Some of my most enjoyable times as a kid were spent reading and imagining the stories, especially the adventure stories of Huck Finn, Robinson Crusoe, Treasure Island, Black Beauty, The five and Biggles.

Could go to bed with a book and be so absorbed that did not realise the time until light was coming in the window.
Posted by Banjo, Saturday, 27 February 2010 4:22:00 PM
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Great idea, it's a common place thing in NZ where I'm from and everyone is the better for it.
Posted by StG, Saturday, 27 February 2010 5:47:15 PM
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It is an idea that is long on idealism but short on practicality.

It is a question of resources, few schools can hope to do any better than carrying one language through under their LOTE program.

In Primary, our children were obliged to learn Japanese as the only available option. At the nearest public secondary school, Chinese was available or miss out. That is a problem for a start, no continuity to develop proficiency. It was yet another reason why our children went to private schools.

How would you get the teachers to initiate and provide any continuity in an Aboriginal language from class to class at the one level, eg Primary? What about relief for teacher illness and turnover? How is proficiency measured - at secondary level it counts for places in higher education. Or will the Aboriginal languages be non-exam?

Where is the demand from adults to learn Aboriginal languages? How many here have taken the step to keep Aboriginal languages alive if that is the aim?

There is far too much legislating for others' behaviour in Australia. It would seem that there are many bright ideas for schools to implement but bugger all action by adults to model the behaviours they are promoting.
Posted by Cornflower, Saturday, 27 February 2010 6:19:36 PM
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I also understand that they do not want to teach the periodic table until much later. Can someone explain why kids are learning aboriginal culture before learning the periodic table?
Posted by Nina, Saturday, 27 February 2010 6:23:00 PM
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Cornflower is right. It's a bad idea. Those in favour of it don't propose to spend their own time and money learning obscure languages they will have no practical use for. They want to use other people's money to compel still other people to learn them.

Learning a language takes a long time and a lot of effort. Most people who study languages at school do not end up actually being able to speak the languages they study. Indeed, a big fraction of those who graduate from 10 years of compulsory education can't even speak, read or write English properly, let alone Pitjanjajara.

But say you are one of the few who would actually learn to speak it. Okay. Now what? Who are you going to talk to in this language that is becoming extinct because of the rarity of its speakers? Are you going to talk about the tunes you downloaded to your iPod? About the latest with the emissions trading scheme?

It would be more to the point to get rid of subjects from the curriculum until those graduating from basic education were able to read and write grammatical English and calculate correctly.
Posted by Peter Hume, Saturday, 27 February 2010 6:46:37 PM
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Nina,

I studied the periodic table but it's relevance is what?

One is far more likely to benefit from exposure, to other languages and culture, than science minutiae, that ultimately doesn't relate to day to day reality.

As a child I spoke 2 PNG languages tolerably plus English and pigin fluently. And I experience their cultures.

I only spoke English for over 30 years but the perspectives buried in those languages and cultures are, what frankly, gives me strength today.

The benefit of indigenous children learning, the same from their languages and cultures is immeasurable, not to be missed.

I look around me on OLO and I see angst and narrow thinking from some. Change and/or different opinions clearly irk them. I'd be prepared to bet money, that those people have never experienced anything but Aussie. Therefore they have no secondary point to triangulate from.

Consider the moderates on OLO most have experienced other languages and culture and they appear more complete in themselves, [I'd mention names but foxy might be embarrassed ;-) ] that isn't an accident.

despite the above, I spent 40 years, on and off, trying to find my birth parents, 3 years ago I learned the all the truth and met my niece. (on TV...so much for my dreams of multimedia stardom)

The idea that through xenophobic lack understanding we deny any child that is to me mental cruelty and totally abhorrent. It's a matter of self without it there are problems. Even enlightened self interest tells us that less people with problems = less problems as a consequence for me.
Posted by examinator, Saturday, 27 February 2010 7:18:10 PM
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Dear Examinator,

Foxy would never be embarrassed by you.
You speak from your heart - and with
such wisdom!

I've come across a website and if you
and other posters can find the time to
read it - I think it gives an interesting
take on things:

http://www.safecom.org.au/eva-sallis-mch.htm
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 27 February 2010 7:42:00 PM
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Examinator,

While there may be SOME relevance for indigenous children to learn where they are from together with a little of their language, I still fail to see how pupils that have no connection with aboriginal Australia must learn something that they will NEVER use.

Examinator - Learning the period table is of considerable relevance - perhaps you pursued a humanities-based career and never had a need to use it. But don't you think it is better we forego teaching something that in all likelyhood will NEVER be used? (in contradistinction to something that MIGHT not be used)

It is unfair that we put our children behind the eight ball by taking up valuable class time in this respect. If they wish to learn it, fine, but don't impose upon them something that is not relevant in our society.
Posted by Nina, Saturday, 27 February 2010 7:47:07 PM
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A language should be taught by the parents. It is none other than the parents or guardians who should ensure that children in their care learn the basics of the language they'll need to communicate effectively throughout life. If some children are in a situation where another language or dialect is in everyday use than it is up to the people in their circles to ensure the language survives. In Australia English is the common language & that is the language which must be taught in the schools by competent teachers. An indigenous language can only be taught by indigenous families just like the many migrant families do.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 27 February 2010 8:03:18 PM
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Dear Nina,

Many subjects are taught that we may never use -
but they teach us how to think, broaden our outlook,
and generally enrich our lives. Through languages you
get to discover many inner worlds. And you're right
when you say - Aboriginal languages have no relevance
in our society - that has been the reason sadly that
many were tragically lost. The last living Aboriginal
languages should be part of our lives.

Read the website I cited earlier - Professor Eva Sallis
explains it so much better than I can.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 28 February 2010 10:29:57 AM
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Cornflower; Have you taken up the option or are you recommending it for the long-suffering school children?

No I have not, although their culture (as it was) facinates me.

Banyo; It is appalling to hear some of the kids speak today.

In your eyes, yes, however, although I don't agree with it, this in my view is a simplification of our langauge and, they all know the talk.

If you take some time and study what they use, especially 'text talk' it really is a simple, non-complicated language.

Words like 'CU' is an example of this. Much easier than 'see you', don't you think.

BTW, another example, or LOL.

And by the way, this is an idea put forward by the educators, not my idea.

Now as for 'spelling', well I have always thought spelling is over rated!
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 28 February 2010 5:44:50 PM
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Nina,
Firstly you appear to be thinking a little too narrowly.
It has been shown in a number of studies that, learning languages increases brain potential.

I was specifically referring to indigenous children in largely indigenous schools.

Next, I was not suggesting as a major topic as in Science, English and Maths. maybe 2 periods a week.
i.e. My children learned French, German, Polish (because the school board were poles, bugger the rest) and Chinese (all mandatory and in different schools, different states). I have 4 children who have traveled widely Australia, Internationally, 3 are in the science careers. Which of the above do you think was useful as a language?

All 4 claim, as I do, that the languages/cultures prepared them for travel i.e. to think laterally/out of the box, take differences in their stride, and be more reasoned when dealing with others.

One was able to sort out an issue at a drilling site, in the real outback, with local indigenous people. While he didn't knowing a word of their language but unlike all the others, on the site he was relaxed and was able to decipher the problem. He then able to get the rig management to resolve the issue. He puts it down to understanding/accepting different cultures. The problem, their portable living quarters was too close to a sacred cave....100 meter change and all were happy.

Ok, my other son, sat in a bar in Seattle and scared off potential tourists with his wild tails about drop bears, Koalas infected with clamidia and the scourge of the bush, venomous blue ringed possums.
He told them, that where you get bitten turns blue and dies...hence True Blue Aussie and Koala blue! (takes after his mother I recon)

NB I am involve in a Science based career but the periodic table is still irrelevant to me and MOST people's lives.

That should be taught when the child wants to go that way.

My point is the language/culture is relatively unimportant but the open mind they bring is.

So for white children in Australia why not Indigenous cultures?
Posted by examinator, Sunday, 28 February 2010 7:04:17 PM
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Thinking outside the box and lateral thinking were points I intended stating last night too Examinator. Most people who have learned other languages would acknowledge the points you raised.

A terrific concept would be for children to be given a book on the aboriginal language, sent home with it as part of a year long english [subject] assignment in years 5 and 6, learn and discuss with parents to increase reading skills, improve their writing skills, assist learning skills, and all of the above you outlined.

Fantastic for non-aboriginal parents who wish to learn about the aboriginal culture, fishing tips and advice, expand their culinary side, water solutions, environment sustainability et all.
Posted by we are unique, Sunday, 28 February 2010 11:33:40 PM
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Spending six months travelling around Australia with my wife and two young daughters a number of years back we had the opportunity to learn a little about some of the symbolism used in various Aboriginal art works. Different groups naturally had different ways of illustrating things but the dot style of painting was something that particularly grabbed us.

On a rainy day about a year after our return with the kids going a little stir crazy we decided to attempt a painting using a similar style and symbolism to depict our extended family groups on a fairly large canvas. With nearly 20 first cousins it was a big job but the kids attacked it with enthusiasm and we completed it within a few days complete with paw, claw and hoof prints to include all the different families pets.

Spatially the positions of the groups loosely followed a map and connecting paths were made between them as were the rivers with popular swimming holes. There were a few added touches that moved away from the traditional style and I while don't think it will ever be mistaken for a genuine work, we were all a little proud of the finished product.

Its position of prominence on the lounge room wall has raised a few eyebrows from the adults of the extended clan but the reaction of the cousins, especially the younger ones, has been quite startling. They just seem to get it straight away and have no hesitation in picking themselves from the 50 plus individuals in the painting. Even a couple of years later I will often catch one or two of them contemplating it when they visit.

I find it hard to imagine a western form such a painting could have taken that would have presented the family in such an effective and engaging manner.

I am wondering if there might be less objection to this medium in our classrooms and if it sparks an interest in some of the students to pursue their studies of aboriginal culture further then learning a language might be the next step.
Posted by csteele, Monday, 1 March 2010 12:11:29 AM
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The initial comment by rehclub, 'these were clever people in thier own right and, we could well learn some lessons from thier elders, if they were willing to teach us.'
Please enlighten us all. There was probably no more backward a race than the aborigines in this country when you compare them to any other civilisation. Considering the time they were established they had nothing that was of any value to the new Australian settlers in 1788. Nothing at all. So what lessons can we learn? How were they 'clever people? In what regard? Even today, 222 years later almost all are totally dependent on government handouts, social welfare and are content to live in poor conditions, contributing little to the progress of our country, never likely to change.
2.5% in total of out population. In my opinion learning such a language would be a waste of time, spending our children's time on English being a much more worthwhile activity.
Posted by rexw, Monday, 1 March 2010 9:48:57 AM
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rexw,
I see where you are comming from, however, although I don't like the way they live today, one must admit that they are a product of white mans intervention.

Now as for being 'clever', in their own right, I am afraid you are judging them by our current standards. I think it is unfair to judge the way they are now as the topic is about their language, not their livelihoods.

What I mean is that they were able to survive in some pretty harsh conditions. Also, there was an excercise several years back whereby a group of them wer dropped off in the bush, along with a group of army personell, along with their modern gadgets etc.

Both groups were given the task of reaching a certain point, within a timeframe and the Aboriginies beat the soldiers hands down and fed themselvs along the way.

Now I am the first to say that if left along they would not have invented the wheel yet, but!, did they need to?
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 1 March 2010 4:35:05 PM
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The difference between me and others is that I admit I use crummy English whereas others pretend to know it all and really can’t even read and understand what the constitution stands for.
As English is the main language then this should be the first language.
Being Dutch born I never did go out of my way to teach Dutch to any of my children because I held it more important that they learned English. However, when any of my (now adult) children ask me to translate in Dutch, etc, I do so. Too often parents born overseas try to put their native language before English and that causes problems because the children, even so natural born Australians, will be more likely see themselves as like their parents from another country rather then being Australians.
Teaching Aboriginal languages is an absurdity in that there were so many Aboriginal languages all over Australia that you would end up with a huge battle as every aboriginal descendant would want their specific dialect to be taught. And who are we to dictate which one of the dialects should be forced upon Aboriginals using a different dialect?
I recall a huge fight about Aboriginal names where in the Grampians names of the old Aboriginal tribes were used but then a another group of Aboriginals of a different tribe now wanted the old Aboriginal names changes to their kind of dialect! As such knowing of the past problems OI rather say forget about it.
If anyone desires to learn any Aboriginal language then it should be upon their own choice!
Posted by Mr Gerrit H Schorel-Hlavka, Monday, 1 March 2010 11:26:02 PM
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Mr Gerrit H Schorel-Hlavka,
Well I think that pretty well sums it up for me. Let's face it, it is frustrating to be left out of a conversation because those speaking are using thier native language.

I think this will simply 'pass over' and be seen as a bad idea.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 2 March 2010 6:35:05 AM
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