When justice is farce and honesty is scarce, truth valued no more, cunningness everywhere, clueless man seeks solace elsewhere.In this kind of a situation, god becomes the only hope.Therefore it can be said that "Faith in god is nothig but Faithlessness in man"

Ezhil

I think you are partly right. People put their faith in Obama as the great saviour and at best he has carried on with Mr Bush's policies while pretending to be different. Tiger Woods was portrayed as the ultimate family man. Our current politicians are more about spin than substance.

I think it is good to put faith in man up to a point. As soon as you promote him/her to godlike status you end up with man believing their own press. Recently it has been top scientist caught out lying, cheating and pretending they knew the future. When clergy are treated like god they also often become corrupt and sometimes perverted.

Perfect faith can only really be placed in the Lord Jesus Christ whose integrity, love. righteousness, truthfulness makes all other men look very bad indeed.

Today people make idols out of sports stars, scientist, rock stars and politicians. Ultimately they are all flawed with a sinful nature and inevitably let people down. Any person who believes they have are gods are generally arrogant and deluded. New age teaches this nonsense.

Ezhil, I see your point. All through the many 10's of thousands of years that humans have walked this earth, they have worshiped everything from plants, moons, suns or animals, as well as any number of Gods.

Obviously, they needed something or someone to blame for their bad luck or shortcomings, rather than themselves.
They needed someone to worship when life went well for them too. They should just have patted themselves on the back instead!

Runner <" Perfect faith can only really be placed in the Lord Jesus Christ whose integrity, love. righteousness, truthfulness makes all other men look very bad indeed."

I am glad you have a God (or his son) to worship Runner.
I understand that some people need a God in their lives and that it can be comforting to them in hard times.

What I want to know is what on earth did all of mankind do to save their mortal souls before Jesus apparently walked on the Earth only two thousand years ago or so, and Christianity was dreamed up ?

Are all those people in hell right now?
It must be very full.....

dear Susie,
If you sincerely want an answer then ask Jesus for he lives today. Before Jesus came King David said these words "Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord" for the revealed word in the old testament points to the coming saviour. Isaiah gave these prophetic words "the Lord himself will give you a sign: Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall shall call his name Immanuel [God with us]. So Susie then as now those that believed are saved. Jesus said "narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life,and there are few that find it." Read Matthew - 7 to get the complete picture. Well said Runner.
Regards Richie 10

Suze makes a good point about different types of worship through history.

Whether it be God, the moon or the forests, most worshipping appears to be an extension of man's need to seek explanation in the world or something 'outside' himself.

It is easy to see that in desperate times otherwordly beliefs might provide comfort for many.

Human behaviour and the selfish instinct can be disappointing at times but there is also much to be praised in human behaviour. I know of one workplace where staff all agreed to take a pay cut (including managers) to ensure no jobs were lost in hard economic times. People also pull together during crisis situations and disasters. People give up their jobs to care for their elderly or disabled relatives/friends.

There are always examples of the good and bad in human beings and worshipping Gods does not seem to help the USA much in terms of crime rates or the treatment of women in Islamic countries. Ultimately whether you have faith or not, the decision about behaviour will always come down to a human choice.

If his name is Immanuel why does everyone keep calling him Jesus? Or was Isaiah full of it?

Maybe they got the wrong bloke in the end.

I always want to know about all the babies that die before being christened, including those of other denominations. It's quite harsh of god to burn babies for eternity in hell because they died before choosing whether or not to believe in god.

For mine, Heaven and Hell are internal states of being inside each individual. They're both here on earth and exist until you die.

For those who have faith in their individual God, do they see him as an interventionist deity ? If so I presume they pray to him for various things. Strength to follow his teaching ? The sick to recover ? That bullets will avoid him in battle? Wisdom to do the right thing? For their soul? (whatever that means) Peace in the world? Blessing inanimate objects such as boats ? A good harvest? That a tsunami won't arrive ? What is it they pray for and are they disappointed when so many times they are "not heard" and the disaster happens anyway ?

If it is for individual strength to conquer adversity or to strengthen their belief, does it work and does their god speak to them ?

There is a whole fields of psychosomatic medical research that shows a relationship with belief and how the mind can affect even bodily functions. The hearing of voices or the curing of a disease.

If this is the case why not worship a garden gnome? If there is sufficient belief, the the effect will be the same, as most of our ancestors did when they worshiped the sun. At least the sun gives life which seems to me a slightly more practical attitude.

I would be interested in your thoughts

Houellebecq,

Christening of children is a Roman Catholic invention that has been copied by other churches. It does nothing except in many cases give parents a false sense of security. The bible actually instructs people to be baptized when they make a conscious decision to accept and obey the Lord Jesus Christ.

While the Scriptures are silent on what age that might be we know that every person matures and grows in understanding at a different rate. Some might understand the gospel at 13 or some 25.

It is my understanding that all children belong to God. Man's greatest sin is the rejection of God's Son. They are slapping the Only One who can save them in the face.

suzeonline

Jesus declared that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were living (not dead). He said that God is the God of the living not dead. Jesus described one poor man in paradise while a rich greedy man in torment (Luke 16:19-26).

It is obvious from these accounts that those who put their faith in Jehovah God and the coming Messiah (who existed long before He was born of a virgin) were saved from their sins. King David Himself wrote

'Hide Your face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities.'

Your nonsense about Christianity being dreamed up is just that. History records the life, death and resurrection of Christ. It is only corrupt and deceitful hearts that try and revise that fact.

runner,

So it's only the rejection of god that sends one to hell? Does that mean anyone not exposed to god due to an upbringing in a fundamentalist Muslim country will not go to hell? What were the missionaries doing then? Apart from inventing the missionary position.

Secondly the Muslims believe in Jesus, just not that Jesus was the son of god. Is believing in Jesus enough? He's in the Qur'an so is Mary aye. I believe in Jesus, as I've spent a lot of time in Israel and seen all the sites and there is so much evidence he's been around. They reckon more evidence than of than Caeser. Those guys were real and they existed.

It's just that, if you look at the media today, and you were to read it in 2000 years, do you think our ancestors will believe the stuff written in the tabloids? That's what we're doing with the bible. Sure some of the stuff happened, but look how the Qur'an and the Bible differ in their interpretations. Which one is the Enquirer and which is the NY Times?

Houellebecq

I believe the rejection of the passover Lamb as a sacrifice for our sin is the issue. When the firstborn were killed in Egypt as a result of Pharoah's hard heart we saw all households who had blood painted above there doors being spared. This was a picture of those who would be forgiven by the shedding of Jesus innocent blood. To reject Christ is to reject salvation and to spurn God' great love to sinful man.

You mention the Muslims. The life and teachings of Mohammed are totally incompatible with that of Jesus. They teach Jesus as a prophet but not as the Son of God. A prophet has no saving power in himself or herself. Muslims need the forgiveness of Jesus just like any other person on earth. Many Muslims have actually come to faith in the living Christ over the last few decades. Many remain in hiding as conversion can and does cost them their life literally.

The writings of Paul and the gospels were certainly no the popular tabloid you refer to. The gospel was and still is offensive to sinful man. It means he must humble Himself and turn to the Only One who can save him. Many of the disciples who had previously acted cowardly at Jesus arrest died horrific deaths by holding to the testimony of Jesus resurrection. Peter was crucified upside down, others were put in boiling oil pots. They could of easily avoided these cruel deaths by denying the truth. The last thing the writers of the gospel were doing was to try and be popular. That would mean comprimising truth which is something Jesus would never of wanted.

Pass over lamb, anyone in their right mind would, have you seen the cost of a chop lately.
Heaven and hell. Heaven comes in an ice cream wrapper. And hell is when the beer runs out.
Boy has that runner got it bad, surely he can't take that as being [gospel]
I don't think it is actually healthy, being encarserated in to such dribble. Do what you like in your mind, but i detest it being spruked about as if it were for real. I like more material things, I worship the sun for rising every day, when i see that i know i have another day in heaven. A lot of good people have gone to earth, only to be turned into compost, so the longer you can stay away from that the better.
Fish in the river and some in the fridge, what more could you wish for.

Ezhil,QUOTE..''When justice is farce''...is it just-us or just-ice[or is it karma...justice is relitive[if we seek justice/from man we are bound to be disappointed/we must remember in who's realm we reside...this is satans realm/expecting justice is bound to disappoint

..'and honesty is scarce'...there is plenty of honesty...its just our expectation of plentyfull honesty..here..that means we shall get dis-apointed,all the more when it is revealed to be temporal/appriciate the honest and good[as coming from god/the vile comming from mens ignorances/fears

..'truth valued no more'...truth is relitive/mainly people fear the truth,want to believe the lie[its our greatness we fear]..that we do to the least we do/did to god..[simply speaking we cant handle the truth]..NO MESSENGER/from god/is god/nor good...only god is good..[all good comes from god/sustaining..all living/their lives]

..'cunningness everywhere''[be ye wise as serphants/but as innocent as child]

..clueless/man seeks solace elsewhere'[yet can only find peace within

..'In this kind/of a situation,..god becomes the only hope'...[we have the wrong idea of god/..we rejected god to be birthed..[sewn into skins/made incarnate...in these realms..little realising god even in the deepest hell's../yet sustains us/al..to live[the natural of nurture]the nature of natural selection..

...'Therefore it can be said that.."Faith in god is nothing/but Faithlessness in man"...the two are not comparable..[gods love is unconditional...mans is totally dependant/..on what ifs/what is/and what was..[and who spake it]

Absolutely Houellebecq, you have touched on yet another puzzle in the religious beliefs of a Christian!

Maybe Ritchie10 can tell us whether the 'babies in limbo if they die before they are christened' story is still true within the Christian churches (Catholics)? We don't want TOO much info though Ritchie please!

I remember when I was a good Catholic girl sitting in church of a Sunday, the congregation was asked to pray for all the babies in Limbo, and all the souls in Pergatory (those on waiting lists to go to heaven, but needed our prayers from earth to get them there).

I think that now I will put my faith in real people here on Earth, rather than a guy that died 2000 years ago, or a bunch of people who believe in the above rubbish.

Dear Susie,
Use your own soul {mind, will, emotions and interlect} and invite God the Holy Spirit to tell you because that is part of his job description not mine. Most here have never taken the time to dig out the gems found in the bible. A diamond in the ground is of no value to you, it is only of value to the finder after he has put in effort.
Richie 10

Hey runner,

One more question. I've always wanted to know, if Adam and Eve had kids Kane and Abel, did they then have sex with the only woman around (Eve). If that's the case, isn't it a sin to have sex with your mother?

How else did we all get here. There must have been incest somewhere if you're starting from 2 people.

Also, were they white, black or asian looking?

Hey Richie,

I did some reading.

Genesis 19:8 Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof

Sounds really good!

If anyone comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he can not be my disciple. (Luke 14:26 NAB)

Jesus was pretty hard core huh?

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law (I'm figuring that was pretty easy!) ; and one's enemies will be those of his household'". (Matthew 10:34-36 NAB)

Also, there are a few inconsistencies....

Luke links Jesus' birth with Quirinius' governorship of Syria and Herod's kingship. But Quirinius took office in AD 6, whereas Herod died in BC 4 or 5.

Was Jesus' first recorded sermon on a mount (Matt. 5:1-2) or a plain (Luke 6:17)?

Judas hangs himself (Matt. 27:5). Or fell, and split himself open (Acts 1:18)

Simon of Cyrene carried Jesus' cross (Matt. 27:32, Mark 15:21, Luke 23:26), or only Jesus himself did (John 19:17).

Each account of Jesus' last words is different (Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:34, Luke 23:46, John 19:30). Which one is correct?

Jesus tells Mary to touch her after his resurrection (Matt. 28:9, Luke 24:39). In John 20:17, he forbids her to do so.

I would suggest before misquoting text to make a point that research be done on the facts and context of the text. All this can be done online at a reputable Bible Study website.

Misquoting Jesus view to the sword contradicts what he actually believed for the life of his followers (Matthew 26: 47 - 56). Followers of Christ have not been instructed to take up weapons, but be warned throught the centuries others will take up the sword against you and the impact of the message to change lives. Saul known as Paul was an example of kiling Christians in the Early Church Acts 9.

As Christ's followers we cannot expect peace but we can expect persecution that may divide family, and family loves. Righteousness, justice and mercy is what Jesus was about and ought to be our greatest love - above loyalty to mother or father who does not act with such values.

Dear Philo,
Jesus preached the Kingdom of God with acompening signs and wonders. It is our unbelief that signs and wonders are for, to help us trust his word. Yesterday the Holy Spirit placed another cobble in my pathway to life and as you say it is all about perception. A question was asked about people who die having no knowledge of Christ. The bible says that they will be judged by the light in their life; innocence versus ignorance. In 3rd world countries they receive with joy the good news of the gospel of kingdom living while here in the west we greet it with sceptacism and unbelief. Jesus could do no miracles in his home town for no one believed. Nothing has changed in 4000 years for as Solomon said the river runs into the sea and the sea never gets full for the water goes back to the land to flow back to the sea again. All to deep fof those who believe in climate change science. For looking they will never see, hearing they never hear.
Richie 10

Houellebecq

Adam and Eve would have had several sons and daughters. I don't know what makes you assume that Eve was the only women around. You could reasonably conclude she had daughters. In other words in the early days brothers and sisters had babies (which of course meant having sex). As the earth was populated God in His wisdom outlawed this practice. As for the colour of there skin I would imagine it was olive. They certainly did not evolve from monkeys as many who fantatise would have you believe

I think you will find that modern psychology supports the idea that all men have gods of some kind. If that is true, it seems that if any of us sat on the couch we would be counselled to confess our particular ones.
The claim that " your god is too small " might be challenged by " where did you hear that? " or " takes one to know one ".
Confession of obsession is a good thing - it seems to me , for all of us . The failure to not do so, more problematic. The question of denial is something real to an outsider here, is it not ??
For our instigator to not recognize the evidence that gods are neccesary is more than an oversight.On the surface, yes faith can drive men too far and too hard . But without faith we seem to have a "failure to inspire men" imperative - to call for no gods is a tall order when most of the men we admire , as well as those whom we don't, talk with a "strong faith"element )
Perhaps some peoples gods are just micro images of themselves or just smaller than themselves - something that invokes magic or fear of it - or juts sits on the shelf till they need it ? The question might then become "Is your/their god too small?"http://graceware.blogspot.com

Yes, runner, your "god" changes the rules when it happens to suit the priests. After the fact, and if anyone notices.

What has always been the case is that there is a population. A&E are a good metaphor for early settlers, later joined by others, not an alternative to evoluion.

You display your ignorance when you trot out Wilberforce's old line. It was well demolished within seconds of being utterred. You might want to read up on evolution. What pastor tells you is clearly pap for suckers.

Any time you want to trot out a genuine objection, you might stop being an example of why fundies are anything other than a hindrance.


Rusty

Dear Rusty Catheter,
God DOES NOT GHANGE. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I am afraid it is mans world view and word meaning that changes. I am sure if you research the bible as a book you would find it has more evidence to supportit its authenticy than any other littery work ever written in history. Just because you do not accept that fact does not make it any less relevent.

Rusty you write

'Yes, runner, your "god" changes the rules when it happens to suit the priests. '

Only a foolish arrogant person would question God's right to change, add or adjust the rules. I know His character is righteous, holy, truthful and unchanging very unlike you.

The fact that your moral relativism leads to more sexual abuse than even the perverted homosexual Catholic priests probably has not occurred to you.

Runner,

"You "know" his character"

Nope. You have been told a fiction that (a) it exists and (b) that such and so is it's character.

Fiction can be anything. The author can even write "this is true" inside the cover. Don't make it so. Hubbard tried that too.

Keep on trying. Alternatively, get that education and you could be of use.

Rusty

Many thanks Runner. You addressed Ezhil's thread concisely. Thank you for educating me on Jesus and God's teachings [admittedly have not sat down and read either the Old or New Testament in many years].

My first challenge:a family friend at 8yrs of age losing both her parents and two siblings in a vehicle accident where she was told the news in her hospital bed. My parents took me to see her. Being 10yrs old and seeing the heartache in Kim's face was horrific to say the least. I prayed over the years for her and a remaining sister.

After Dad's best mate died in a trucking accident alongside him, his faith and prayers were the only thing that got he and his mate's family through the ordeal [1970's].

Next my first cousin drowning at 21 [me 15yrs] and his body missing for a week. Next, my 7 yr old cousin dying of a neurological complication during an epileptic fit, then my old neighbour Janine Balding murdered on my honeymoon, a work colleague murdered at 21yrs, another cousin drowned in an accident at 23yrs, the list progresses as it does with everyone throughout life. A miscarriage, prayer.

Throughout these tragedies I prayed for every one of those dying young that God Jesus and Our Lady would receive them and just as importantly prayed for their parents and siblings that they would strengthen and hearts ease quickly.

My way of coping? Yes. Am I just believing in God, Our Lady and Jesus as a selfish way of coping? No.

The faith I have, through prayer, is the most powerful "gift" that my father [Dad] could ever have taught me to do from the age of 5yrs, and thank you God,Jesus and Our Lady, most of all, for blessing Dad as my father, or I would not be alive today, without the "gift" and/or introduction given to me of prayer. Each to their own beliefs though and I comprehend this.

Insecurity among the people necessitated the invention of God.Sense of insecurity is due to social problems such as fraud, corruption,cheating,exploitation, betrayal even by the near and dear ones and similar other things in society in a large scale. When social situation improves there is a decline in people's belief in supernatural powers.So by "Faith in god is faithlessness in man" we try to convey the message that people should become good to others so that others are not driven to a state of hopelessness.Let us not seek solution from super natural powers while the fault lies in ourselves.Only a civilsed society can solve the problems of mankind.As long as we believe that supernatural powers decide our successes and failures , our follies will remain for ever and the problems will continue to haunt us because we will correct our mistakes.