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The Forum > General Discussion > Repeating of histroy

Repeating of histroy

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Peter Hume, in referring to the AWG phenomena suggests, <<It is just a recycled version of the mediaeval religious belief in selling indulgences on the supposition that we’re all going to die because of man’s sin.>> Thanks Peter.

This got me thinking about history repeating itself; as a result I posted on the similarities between the AGW phenomena and the Crusades, astonishing similarities got me digging deeper. I can’t remember who said it, but it was said that if we don’t know our history, we can’t understand the present. History indeed offers us some astonishing insights into the current AGW phenomena.

It is simply not possible I thought, for so many people, across so many social, political and education backgrounds, to “believe” in a concept like AGW, without real, scientific merit.

So where and how could history provide some answers? Peter Hume’s comment had me re-visiting Dante’s “The Divine Comedy” and Giovanni Boccaccio’s “The Decameron” Why you might reasonably ask? Well, these works tell us much about how the population felt about how the power bases of the Church of Rome and the Heads of State were actually “perceived” during these mediaeval periods. They also tell us much about how the “control mechanisms” of these periods operated.

Dante in particular is illuminating. His “Purgatorio” describes a place where the souls of the departed are held for hundreds of years for their sins, until of course they repent their sins or have simply served their time.

The Christian Church, which had never heard of “purgatory”, saw an opportunity. “What if we could convince people that purgatory was “real?” What if we could “tax” people because they “believed” that by paying the Church money, we would offer prayers for their dearly departed to be released early from purgatory and transferred to Paradise? The more they pay, the sooner they will be sent to Paradise. So, the Christian Church built “Purgatories” onto all the churches in Christendom and opened a revenue stream that lasted for hundreds if not thousands of years.

continued
Posted by spindoc, Monday, 8 February 2010 3:33:49 PM
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Continued:

Poor Dante, for his poetry, was exiled from Florence, had the death penalty imposed, and all for giving the Vatican one of its best marketing opportunities ever. The revenues funded Crusades and enormous wealth, power and political influence for the Vatican for hundreds of years. The good news is that the City of Florence finally lifted the death penalty on Dante in 2007! Sadly 700 years after he died.

So what? This is just medieval control of the masses. Well, is it really? Or is Peter Hume right?

Could it be the case, that this history was a role model for creating a “following”? If so how does this play out in the current AGW debate? What are the similarities?

It’s interesting that apart from “selling” fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD), the medieval period also sold us dispensation for our sins (carbon emissions) and indulgences (mitigation) for those who pay dearly for forgiveness. It is indeed instructive that we have seen this all before. The Vatican labeled scientists as “heretics”, the public were labeled non-believers, skeptics and deniers, unless of course you paid for not taking up the “Cross”.

The NGO’s and the CPRS/ETS sell us Gold Credits, Tree Planting and other forms of mitigation. You can “sin”, “pollute” and “emit carbon” however, you must pay us money, in this tin “what I rattle here before you”, or via the “the tax which we shall impose upon thee”.

So, to the similarities, they are exact and precise, there is no difference. We have a society that is markedly better educated than that which prevailed a thousand years ago, and yet, those very same preferences, attitudes, values and beliefs that prevailed a thousand years ago still prevail today.

Nothing is new; society is still vulnerable and swallows the nonsense. When oh when will we learn?
Posted by spindoc, Tuesday, 9 February 2010 7:52:41 AM
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Medieval archery again (Long bow warfare)!

Quotes need to be apposite. Science advances in AGW are the exception.
A bit like Quantum Physics, general relativity etc. There are no relevant precedents in any of the above.
i.e. When else in history did we have 6+ Billion lives at stake or their interference.(both new factors)
When in paleogeology did we have satellite technology and their measurements?

Sorry old bean, History is just a reference point not a predictive tool.

Peter is indeed a good thinker but he is a little agenda driven.
Posted by examinator, Tuesday, 9 February 2010 8:42:58 AM
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I agree that we should learn from history - but I think with respect to AGW that there are far better examples that we should use for comparison than the tenuous similarities spindoc and Hume see between AGW and the selling of indulgences in medieval Europe.

A good start would be the reading of Jarrod Diamond's "Collapse":

<< Diamond lists eight factors which have historically contributed to the collapse of past societies:

Deforestation and habitat destruction
Soil problems (erosion, salinization, and soil fertility losses)
Water management problems
Overhunting
Overfishing
Effects of introduced species on native species
Overpopulation
Increased per-capita impact of people

Further, he says four new factors may contribute to the weakening and collapse of present and future societies:

Human-caused climate change
Buildup of toxins in the environment
Energy shortages
Full human utilization of the Earth’s photosynthetic capacity

Diamond also writes about cultural factors, such as the apparent reluctance of the Greenland Norse to eat fish. >>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_(book)

The book is an excellent read, but the Wikipedia entry provides quite a good synopsis of the argument, method and evidence.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 9 February 2010 9:23:29 AM
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Prophesy;
A Climate scientist man named Costello will publish a book relating to his work with the Climategate emails and it will totally debunk the whole AGW argument.
There has been no measurable temperature increase in the 20th Century.
Just because WWF and Greenpeace believe in 'happenings' and the IPCC swallows it hook, line and sinker, it doesn't mean that they are scientifically sound.
The whole IPCC Report is looking more and more like a lump of over ripe and smelly Swiss Cheese.
It will prove to be a tasty morsel for the gullible.
Posted by phoenix94, Tuesday, 9 February 2010 9:53:39 AM
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